91 replies to this topic

[arttidesco]

Gulp - 30 years ago.

As a student I made my way from Leicester by public transport for the day. I wonder if it would be so easy to do these days.

Geoff

I occasionally hitched from Nottingham but on this occasion I had a hire car and drove up from London.

[Phil Rainford]

http://www.motorspor...ere-it-belongs/

Worth a look?

PAR

[arttidesco]

http://www.motorspor...ere-it-belongs/

Worth a look?

PAR

tickets for Donington WEC up for grabs

[Julian Roberts]

tickets for Donington WEC up for grabs

European Le Mans tickets actually, so no Audis and Toyota.

I enjoyed reading the irritated comments from readers who had embarked on their survey only only to give up when the questions became purely financial. In fairness to Motor Sport though, they have read and acted on the complaints and posted this message :

"Dear All

Thank you for your comments on the reader survey so far. We understand that you may not wish to fill in your personal or car ownership details and changes are in progress on the survey to make these questions optional.

We are also addressing some small glitches.

Best Regards

Sophia Dempsey
Publisher"

Edited by Julian Roberts, 25 May 2012 - 08:06.

[arttidesco]

European Le Mans tickets actually, so no Audis and Toyota.

Stand corrected "Free" always gets my attention when it comes to motor racing tickets

[Julian Roberts]

Stand corrected "Free" always gets my attention when it comes to motor racing tickets

As it did mine which is why I dashed off to their website to try and win ! Sadly ELMS isn't what it was since the WEC.

[arttidesco]

As it did mine which is why I dashed off to their website to try and win ! Sadly ELMS isn't what it was since the WEC.

I'm always game for endurance events, not been to races at Donnington since WEC in 1990 ish :-)

[simonlewisbooks]

Hard to believe it was 30 years ago that I got up at the crack of dawn to go and see the debut of the 956 and Group C at Silverstone

The first WEC/SWC (whatever its been called at various times) I went to. Loved every minute of the 6 hours and was amazed when the comics declared the race extremely dull and tedious...which means I was either easily pleases/totally smitten in those days or finding interest in the event that the regular reporters were missing!

IIRC Patrese had to do the last stint with no clutch and a creaky gearbox on his Lancia and although the Bell/Ickx 956 was coasting on fumes it wasn't all over until the fat lady sang.
Maybe I just loved the cars so much that six hours passed in a happy daze? Maybe messers Titchmarsh & Scott-Russell on the PA were making even a dull race seem like a cracker?

30 years ago....god I feel old!

[arttidesco]

The first WEC/SWC (whatever its been called at various times) I went to. Loved every minute of the 6 hours and was amazed when the comics declared the race extremely dull and tedious...which means I was either easily pleases/totally smitten in those days or finding interest in the event that the regular reporters were missing!

IIRC Patrese had to do the last stint with no clutch and a creaky gearbox on his Lancia and although the Bell/Ickx 956 was coasting on fumes it wasn't all over until the fat lady sang.
Maybe I just loved the cars so much that six hours passed in a happy daze? Maybe messers Titchmarsh & Scott-Russell on the PA were making even a dull race seem like a cracker?

30 years ago....god I feel old!

I'd agree the race was by far from the best I had ever seen, but those cars were just something else I could and eventually did watch them all day long, like you maybe I'm easily pleased

[bill p]

Some photos from 1985 Shell Gemini at Brands



Uploaded with ImageShack.us



















Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[johnfitzpatrick]

The #34 at Sandown was one of the first 962 (105) entered by John Fitzpatrick. The Le Mans #34 was a 956 (102) also owned by JFR, normally seen in Skoal Bandit livery but in Bob Jane colours for the race at Le Mans. Another JFR 956 (110) ran at Silverstone 1984 with Bob Jane livery. So three races with three different cars although owned & run by the same team

That was very informative. Thank you. Even I didn't know which car was which and I owned all the f*****g things. Joking apart, it is great to know that
there is still interest in these cars which I personally enjoyed driving so much and was lucky enough to have a few good finishes.

I am delighted to hear that the Festival of Speed will have a Group C feature this year.
I have been invited and I hope to be reunited with one of my cars. For a gentle run up the hill I hasten to add.

best regards to everyone and Doug!

Fitz

Edited by johnfitzpatrick, 01 June 2012 - 14:29.

[Phil Rainford]

A horrible wet Saturday morning and a serious accident on the first lap of the race rather took the edge of the Group C encounter at Le Mans last weekend

Having said that there were some fantastic cars on show



Bob Berridge ( Mercedes C 11 ) was the victor.....



...although Roger Wills ( Lancia C2) pushed him hard



The race was billed as Derek Bell's last ever ( Porsche 962)



Christophe D'Ansembourg at the esses in his Porsche 962



The ex-Tim Harvey Spice SE89 of Claus Bjerglund


PAR

[arttidesco]

The race was billed as Derek Bell's last ever ( Porsche 962)




PAR

Top photo's Phil

I was at Brooklands on Sunday where there was a Bentley Blower with Derek's name on the bonnet and the suggestion he would be driving it in the Le Mans Classic in a couple of weeks.

[Wouter Melissen]

Here are some our shots from Le Mans:

Qualifying

The very wet race

[simonlewisbooks]

Here are some our shots from Le Mans:

Lovely shot!

[Wouter Melissen]

Lovely shot!

Thanks. The drivers knew where I was ;)

[Mallory Dan]

Those Group C cars look better with age, truly beautiful. Even the ugly ones look good, eg the original ADA, and the GRIDs. Especially compared to the modern Endurance/Sportscars...

[JacnGille]

Lovely shot!

[Option1]

Lovely shot!

+1

Neil

[Phil Rainford]

Those Group C cars look better with age, truly beautiful. Even the ugly ones look good, eg the original ADA, and the GRIDs. Especially compared to the modern Endurance/Sportscars...

A few more from last weekend for Dan.....




The Tiga GC 285 of Legros -Danvin




The rapid Cheetah of Eric Rickenbacher





Richard Bateman's Spice SE90




Another Spice : this time the SE88 of Thomas Dozin


Fantastic shot of the two Lancias by the way


PAR

[Francois78]

Good evening Gents .
Some Group.C views (video archives) during private test at dijon in 1989 :
http://hoslotfrance.free.fr/?p=185

[arttidesco]

Good evening Gents .
Some Group.C views (video archives) during private test at dijon in 1989 :
http://hoslotfrance.free.fr/?p=185

Shame there were no Aston Martin AMR1's present but a lovely reminder of the good old days



962C #006 hot footing it after those pesky Jags

[Paul Parker]

Shame there were no Aston Martin AMR1's present but a lovely reminder of the good old days



962C #006 hot footing it after those pesky Jags ;)

The interesting thing is that whilst the cars from this era are self evidently very different from today's machines, nevertheless they don't look obsolete and ancient per se.

If however you were to go back 25-30 years from 1988 say then the difference is far more marked and 1950s/early 60s cars really do appear antediluvian by comparison.

I also suspect that if you gave a 1980s 956/962, Jaguar or Sauber modern brakes and tyres with appropriate suspension mods they probably wouldn't be that much slower than their modern counterparts.

[arttidesco]

The interesting thing is that whilst the cars from this era are self evidently very different from today's machines, nevertheless they don't look obsolete and ancient per se.

If however you were to go back 25-30 years from 1988 say then the difference is far more marked and 1950s/early 60s cars really do appear antediluvian by comparison.

I also suspect that if you gave a 1980s 956/962, Jaguar or Sauber modern brakes and tyres with appropriate suspension mods they probably wouldn't be that much slower than their modern counterparts.

I was just looking at some picks of the latest LMP1 & 2 cars and thinking how dated they look with those 'old' school fins running down their backs

IIRC the Saubers may already been running cf brakes by 1992.

[simonlewisbooks]

The interesting thing is that whilst the cars from this era are self evidently very different from today's machines, nevertheless they don't look obsolete and ancient per se.

If however you were to go back 25-30 years from 1988 say then the difference is far more marked and 1950s/early 60s cars really do appear antediluvian by comparison.

I also suspect that if you gave a 1980s 956/962, Jaguar or Sauber modern brakes and tyres with appropriate suspension mods they probably wouldn't be that much slower than their modern counterparts.

Thats a good point Paul and I have pondered this myself when looking back through photos from early GpC days - now thirty years old and as you say still looking modern in most respects.

Racing cars in general have ceased looking newer - it also applies in some cases to F1, F3 etc.

A Mid 90s F1 car with high nose, airbox, driver huddled down in high sided cocpit etc looks very like one from today!
Thats almost 20 years with no really noticable visual changes... how dull.

Work it back,
10 years before 1996 and we are at the peak of the Turbo era, rather bulky looking cars with no air boxes and drivers sitting up high
20 yearts before was Ferrari 312T2s McLaren M23s Tyrrell P34s etc. all looking striking individual
30 years and it's elegant little Lotus 33s and BRM P261s , small tyres, no wings,sponsors, side pods or airboxes
40 years and it's Vanwalls and Maserati 250Fs.....

If you look at F3 the Dallara of today looks roughly as it might have in about 1990.

No wonder modern racing makes so many of us old codgers switch off. We've seen most of it before...

[Paul Parker]

Thats a good point Paul and I have pondered this myself when looking back through photos from early GpC days - now thirty years old and as you say still looking modern in most respects.

Racing cars in general have ceased looking newer - it also applies in some cases to F1, F3 etc.

A Mid 90s F1 car with high nose, airbox, driver huddled down in high sided cocpit etc looks very like one from today!
Thats almost 20 years with no really noticable visual changes... how dull.

Work it back,
10 years before 1996 and we are at the peak of the Turbo era, rather bulky looking cars with no air boxes and drivers sitting up high
20 yearts before was Ferrari 312T2s McLaren M23s Tyrrell P34s etc. all looking striking individual
30 years and it's elegant little Lotus 33s and BRM P261s , small tyres, no wings,sponsors, side pods or airboxes
40 years and it's Vanwalls and Maserati 250Fs.....

If you look at F3 the Dallara of today looks roughly as it might have in about 1990.

No wonder modern racing makes so many of us old codgers switch off. We've seen most of it before...

Yes indeed and due to the interminable restrictive legislations, innovative design has become limited to incremental changes hence the results as you have noted.

[simonlewisbooks]

Yes indeed and due to the interminable restrictive legislations, innovative design has become limited to incremental changes hence the results as you have noted.

In fact worldwide the spread of homogenized series has led to a serious decline in spectator interest in general - you only have to think how attendances for NASCAR (always sell-outs in the 80s/90s) have declined in the past decade, ditto Indycar, ditto GP2, ditto F3...

Someone at the FIA needs to wake up. Sooner or later this widespread lack of interest filters through to the TV viewing figures.
The trend is currently very unhealthy.

[ensign14]

Those Group C cars look better with age, truly beautiful. Even the ugly ones look good, eg the original ADA, and the GRIDs. Especially compared to the modern Endurance/Sportscars...

I like the look of the modern sportscars. They have a sort of amour of the brutalisme about them. Every facet of their engineering screams aggression and purpose. It's a different beauty to the freeflowing aerodynamic aesthetic of the past but none the less attractive for that. Like comparing Natalie Portman with Vogue from Gladiators.

[Duc-Man]

I like the look of the modern sportscars. They have a sort of amour of the brutalisme about them. Every facet of their engineering screams aggression and purpose. It's a different beauty to the freeflowing aerodynamic aesthetic of the past but none the less attractive for that. Like comparing Natalie Portman with Vogue from Gladiators.

I watched parts of LeMans this weekend. The general look of a lot of those LMP2 spyders remind me on the early version of the Shadow Mk.III can-am car from 41(!) years ago. Specially if you look at them from the top.
Was Peter Bryant's design so far ahead of its time?

2012 Oreca 03 vs 1972 Shadow Mk.III



Edited to add photos.

Sorry for gettin' OT.

Edited by Duc-Man, 24 June 2013 - 16:36.

[Mallory Dan]

I can see a vague similarity DM, but the Shadow's far nicer. It hasn't got any of those awful 'sticky out' bits on, as all modern racing cars seem to have.

By the way, what were the 'Morgan's' at LM. Are they re-badged 'Ginettas' from a year or so back? I can't think what Robin Gray, Steve Cole, John Absalom or the Higgins brothers would think of them?

[arttidesco]

I can see a vague similarity DM, but the Shadow's far nicer. It hasn't got any of those awful 'sticky out' bits on, as all modern racing cars seem to have.

By the way, what were the 'Morgan's' at LM. Are they re-badged 'Ginettas' from a year or so back? I can't think what Robin Gray, Steve Cole, John Absalom or the Higgins brothers would think of them?

The Morgan's are built by Onroak Automotive and run by OAK Racing.

[fausto]

I can see a vague similarity DM, but the Shadow's far nicer. It hasn't got any of those awful 'sticky out' bits on, as all modern racing cars seem to have.

By the way, what were the 'Morgan's' at LM. Are they re-badged 'Ginettas' from a year or so back? I can't think what Robin Gray, Steve Cole, John Absalom or the Higgins brothers would think of them?

No, the Morgan is an almost new design from Oak Racing, Jacques Nicolet team, based on a Pescarolo chassis the Ginetta you probably refer was basically a Zytek, that started life as a Reynard design, before the company went bankrupt

[simonlewisbooks]

The Morgan's are built by Onroak Automotive and run by OAK Racing.

There is the ominous line "will compete as..." in that story.
Motor racing meets STARS IN THEIR EYES ?

[arttidesco]

Some photos from 1985 Shell Gemini at Brands




Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

 

 

 

 

 

Same car, same meeting different nose

 

I believe the current owner of the EMKA is also a TNFer.

Edited by arttidesco, 28 June 2015 - 19:17.

[TimRTC]

Neat thread, wish I had some period shots to contribute, but have a couple of shots from the 2012 Donington Historic to make up for all the missing shots earlier in this thread:

 

The Silver Arrow Mercedes C9 by Timothy Young, on Flickr

 

Group C sports cars swarm through the Craner Curves on the first by Timothy Young, on Flickr

 

The Bud Light XJR16 driven by Richard Eyre by Timothy Young, on Flickr

[arttidesco]

 

David Sears in the #45 Porsche 962 he shared with Tiff Needell and Anthony Reid Q 20th F 3rd, being chased during qualifying by the #23 Nissan R90CP shared by Masahiro Hasemi, Kazuyoshi Hoshino, Toshio Suzuki Q 3rd F 5th.

[EDWARD FITZGERALD]

 

Same car, same meeting different nose

 

I believe the current owner of the EMKA is also a TNFer.

Very interesting piece on the EMKA , IIRC designer Len Bailey not Len Terry , when the car broke cover at Silverstone I passed comment to one of the team regarding its similarity to the Bailey penned C100 and he was not impressed 

[sabrejet]

Sincerest form of flattery isn't it? On a related note I remember someone saying that the Mazda 757 was a 956 copy though I never saw anything other than a passing resemblance (four wheels, enveloping bodywork, ABS wheels and a rear wing). I guess it's in the eye of the beholder.

[arttidesco]

Very interesting piece on the EMKA , IIRC designer Len Bailey not Len Terry , when the car broke cover at Silverstone I passed comment to one of the team regarding its similarity to the Bailey penned C100 and he was not impressed 

 

I do seem to have got my Lens mixed up

[lustigson]

Wow, those late 80s' and early 90s' Group C sports cars were the most beautiful race cars, weren't they.

[JacnGille]

Wow, those late 80s' and early 90s' Group C sports cars were the most beautiful race cars, weren't they.

[sabrejet]

A few of mine from LM '90: