84 replies to this topic

[mba21]

Drastic changes need to be made......................give your thoughts on how it could be better

[Coupe Kawasaki]

Form a committee

[fil2.8]

Drastic changes need to be made......................give your thoughts on how it could be better

Well , Worzel it certainly couldn't be worse , there's an old saying , if it 'aint broke , don't fix it , so you could start there

[jaybee49]

Drastic changes need to be made......................give your thoughts on how it could be better

Go to 990's and have it at Spa.

[fil2.8]

Go to 990's and have it at Spa.

Go further back to 500's , 2 or 4 smoke , any cylinders , and , yes Spa

[Coupe Kawasaki]

Go further back to 500's , 2 or 4 smoke , any cylinders , and , yes Spa

Run what you brung as long as it has 2 wheels and is safe to ride.(did I just say safe? Spa of course! I think the TT will outlive it all

[SADBATCCM]

Run what you brung as long as it has 2 wheels and is safe to ride.(did I just say safe? Spa of course! I think the TT will outlive it all

All manufactures to build ten Homologation specials.. And open to all, and a ceiling on price of £250k the same as an RG in the 80s @£25k in retrospect !!!!!!!

Edited by SADBATCCM, 20 June 2010 - 22:59.

[roadshop]

Run what you brung as long as it has 2 wheels and is safe to ride.(did I just say safe? Spa of course! I think the TT will outlive it all

A humble wish!....remember to bring back the fifties, 80cc allowed for fourstrokes.
Poul Erik

[SADBATCCM]

A humble wish!....remember to bring back the fifties, 80cc allowed for fourstrokes.
Poul Erik

All works bikes to have a weight disadvantage of 25kg

do like the number 25

Edited by SADBATCCM, 20 June 2010 - 23:07.

[Coupe Kawasaki]

A humble wish!....remember to bring back the fifties, 80cc allowed for fourstrokes.
Poul Erik

You can have this and enjoy it instead in your dreams

[rd500]

mmm, my thoughts on this one basically sum up motorcycling in general these days --- a joke it really brought it home to me how bad it is when rossi got injured, if you checked out any of the internet opinion sections it was very clear that if he goes it will kill motogp as we know it at the moment and in my opinion this is the best thing that can happen as it will mean change. the rossi "fans" on these sections made it very clear they blamed yamaha for the accident and as most of them came from f1 racing they advised tht is what they will be watching instead. this seems to reflect to the people buying road bikes aswell, if i had a pound for every person i know of who passed their bike test (cause its cool and fashionable) went out and bought all the gear and a gixser or the like, rode it about 3 times and sold the lot iwould have a few pennies. i always thought that if you had a bike you were always into them but it doesnt seem to be the case anymore, its all sunday toys and fashion. ive never went to bike race now for a few years now as i got fed up with whole thing, couple of examples -- donington gp 2003 race day, the 125s came out and there were a group of guys standing next to me reading the programme and one of the guys said " 125s there wont be anybody racing in that watching and there too slow anyway" or when i was at one of the sidecar internationals and webbo was racing and won the race, so as he passed i gave a wave of the programme and a clap and the guy next to me said ' calm down its only sidecars " and the amount of people who talk above the bikes in the crowds. you used to go meetings and the crowd used go get involved but that seems to be gone and it finished me with it plus the fact i grew up watching real racing bikes and the thrill of handing my hard earned cash over to watch road bikes that all sound the same does not inspire me, the whole things goiing backwards , it depends what you want to see- close racing which moto 2 gives you but bikes that are at the bottom of barrel engineering wise, i mean come on a 1 make engine class in the top level of our sport, sorry but all i see is twin spar frames and upside forks , mm as i pointed out to someone the other day there was more frame/suspension experimenting done before this class and this is what moto 2 is meant to be about, also the engine in them like any good 4 stroke is great if youve just passed youre test or you have an obsession with mpg readings, or just as good if you have a heavy garage door to keep open but as a full on racing engine it just doesnt work unless you make the rules so that no other engine can take part - which is where we are now, the whole things dead in the water no matter how many stupid things they do to make it interesting. look at the tt a once great event but as pure racing fan i will never go back no matter which moto gp ledgend theyve paid millions to get to hide in bushes - it just doesnt interest me ahymore. i remember reading someone was at the tt and they just wished something diffrent engine wise would come round to liven it up. its not about engine type but as long as they open it to everything from a rotary to a 2/4 stroke whatever they want but as usual there is a certain motorcycle manufacturer and a licensing company that will never let it happen. it was, is and always will be a show and this one is a bad, dilluted one that goes for every part of the sport from moto gp to bsb. i have not heard a british rider in a while saying his aim is to be moto gp world champion, only a wsb champ. i only go to my club circuit to watch racing, i get from that no national/world championship can give me, choice and openess. what would you rather watch ---- moto gp or a tz750,rs250 and a 916 battle it out? i know which cause ive seen it already (the 750 won) . jees thats been pent up for a while, i dont kow if half of that even makes sense . if im banned from the forum ill know why

[roadshop]

You can have this and enjoy it instead in your dreams

Not enough!

[Coupe Kawasaki]

Best thing I've read in a very long time there Saved me a lot of typing

[Coupe Kawasaki]

Not enough!

OK Assen..errrmmm...dare I say it?...OK I will '66..I was being nice putting it on 69-90s Poul

[mba21]

mmm, my thoughts on this one basically sum up motorcycling in general these days --- a joke it really brought it home to me how bad it is when rossi got injured, if you checked out any of the internet opinion sections it was very clear that if he goes it will kill motogp as we know it at the moment and in my opinion this is the best thing that can happen as it will mean change. the rossi "fans" on these sections made it very clear they blamed yamaha for the accident and as most of them came from f1 racing they advised tht is what they will be watching instead. this seems to reflect to the people buying road bikes aswell, if i had a pound for every person i know of who passed their bike test (cause its cool and fashionable) went out and bought all the gear and a gixser or the like, rode it about 3 times and sold the lot iwould have a few pennies. i always thought that if you had a bike you were always into them but it doesnt seem to be the case anymore, its all sunday toys and fashion. ive never went to bike race now for a few years now as i got fed up with whole thing, couple of examples -- donington gp 2003 race day, the 125s came out and there were a group of guys standing next to me reading the programme and one of the guys said " 125s there wont be anybody racing in that watching and there too slow anyway" or when i was at one of the sidecar internationals and webbo was racing and won the race, so as he passed i gave a wave of the programme and a clap and the guy next to me said ' calm down its only sidecars " and the amount of people who talk above the bikes in the crowds. you used to go meetings and the crowd used go get involved but that seems to be gone and it finished me with it plus the fact i grew up watching real racing bikes and the thrill of handing my hard earned cash over to watch road bikes that all sound the same does not inspire me, the whole things goiing backwards , it depends what you want to see- close racing which moto 2 gives you but bikes that are at the bottom of barrel engineering wise, i mean come on a 1 make engine class in the top level of our sport, sorry but all i see is twin spar frames and upside forks , mm as i pointed out to someone the other day there was more frame/suspension experimenting done before this class and this is what moto 2 is meant to be about, also the engine in them like any good 4 stroke is great if youve just passed youre test or you have an obsession with mpg readings, or just as good if you have a heavy garage door to keep open but as a full on racing engine it just doesnt work unless you make the rules so that no other engine can take part - which is where we are now, the whole things dead in the water no matter how many stupid things they do to make it interesting. look at the tt a once great event but as pure racing fan i will never go back no matter which moto gp ledgend theyve paid millions to get to hide in bushes - it just doesnt interest me ahymore. i remember reading someone was at the tt and they just wished something diffrent engine wise would come round to liven it up. its not about engine type but as long as they open it to everything from a rotary to a 2/4 stroke whatever they want but as usual there is a certain motorcycle manufacturer and a licensing company that will never let it happen. it was, is and always will be a show and this one is a bad, dilluted one that goes for every part of the sport from moto gp to bsb. i have not heard a british rider in a while saying his aim is to be moto gp world champion, only a wsb champ. i only go to my club circuit to watch racing, i get from that no national/world championship can give me, choice and openess. what would you rather watch ---- moto gp or a tz750,rs250 and a 916 battle it out? i know which cause ive seen it already (the 750 won) . jees thats been pent up for a while, i dont kow if half of that even makes sense . if im banned from the forum ill know why

Brilliant ............you spoke your mind and many many more will agree with what you say

[roadshop]

OK Assen..errrmmm...dare I say it?...OK I will '66..I was being nice putting it on 69-90s Poul

Aalt Thorsen, Works Kreidler!

rd500, I agree totally with most you say. Will be just as hard to change as to change F1 to something interresting!

Poul Erik

[roadshop]

Aalt Thorsen, Works Kreidler!

rd500, I agree totally with most you say. Will be just as hard to change as to change F1 to something interresting!

Poul Erik

You were right, with Rossi missing, suddently it all felt ........pointless!

[rd500]

[quote name='jaybee49' date='Jun 21 2010, 01:05' post='4426534']
It might give your argument more sway if you posted it in way that was easier to read. With paragraphs and full stops. Not like some demented latin verseI would ban you if it was my forum.

I am not going to even try. If you can't be arsed to put what you want to try and say in English - as we know it. I cant be arsed to read it.

Good night.
[/quote

Its a democracy, read what you like! Didnt realise it was a typo test, just my thoughts were asked for so i gave them. Thats what forums are for. :rolleyes:

[jaybee49]

Hang on there matey: Its not a typo test at all - so don’t be over dramatic with me. Make as many mis-spellings as you care to I do not have any problems with that, but if you are going to post on an English language based forum at least try to make it readable - that is all I ask not a chapter from the Koran..

I have not disagreed with your post; I just can't read it the way you have set it out. My point is the more you make it readable the more will read it and digest it…

[Coupe Kawasaki]

Hang on there matey: Its not a typo test at all - so don’t be over dramatic with me. Make as many mis-spellings as you care to I do not have any problems with that, but if you are going to post on an English language based forum at least try to make it readable - that is all I ask not a chapter from the Koran..

I have not disagreed with your post; I just can't read it the way you have set it out. My point is the more you make it readable the more will read it and digest it…

Well if there were some paragraphs it would be easier to read through, I do have trouble with some of the longer ones anyway It's a bit like talking too fast to someone ..I don't think Jim is insulting you or the content

[SADBATCCM]

Well if there were some paragraphs it would be easier to read through, I do have trouble with some of the longer ones anyway It's a bit like talking too fast to someone ..I don't think Jim is insulting you or the content

MORNING DAISY
seems all is well on the forum

Edited by SADBATCCM, 21 June 2010 - 01:05.

[mba21]

Well if there were some paragraphs it would be easier to read through, I do have trouble with some of the longer ones anyway It's a bit like talking too fast to someone ..I don't think Jim is insulting you or the content

No I am sure he is not daisy............... but I have a problem reading your stuff at times Daisy...............

[rd500]

No probs noted for next time

[roadshop]

No I am sure he is not daisy............... but I have a problem reading your stuff at times Daisy...............

Talking ourselves away from the main subject, are we?
Maybe because it´s too hard to handle?

[mba21]

I am no doubt old school,and would love to see a return of a full GP race meetings,with all the old classes 80 125 250 500 and sidecars,instead of what we have today,I cant see it ever happening,at least you had full grids and some of the best racing I have ever seen.
Mutter mutter mutter .....am off to my bed now ..........

[Coupe Kawasaki]

for the enth time... Who is number 30? ( with the delight of it getting through our customs dept without a name earlier



Daisy

Edited by Coupe Kawasaki, 21 June 2010 - 05:01.

[GD66]

Wrong thread, CK. But seeing as they're all in bed, it's apparently a Laverda in the Island, so I'll try Peter Davies.

[Coupe Kawasaki]

Wrong thread, CK. But seeing as they're all in bed, it's apparently a Laverda in the Island, so I'll try Peter Davies.

Yes it is forgetful

Close...I would have said that....this is '69...sponsored a few riders


Dave

[Paul Rochdale]

Allow me to be 'the voice in the wilderness'. I enjoy MotoGP, World SuperBikes and British SuperBikes. I can't see what all the complaints are about. It is a shame we don't have the old classes of 50cc, 125cc, 250cc, 350cc, 500cc, Unlimited and Sidecars though.

[GD66]

Me too, Paul. Many complaints are from people that don't get along to the meetings : if they get trackside, they'll still see how damn quick the new stuff goes. Yes, I agree the enforced disappearance of the two-strokes has robbed us of some of the essence of racing as we knew it, but there's plenty of historic racing happening where we can still get our fix from life as we knew it. Silverstone injected plenty of interest yesterday, and anybody complaining that racing these days is boring obviously didn't bother tuning in. I'm glad Silverstone's back on the calendar, quite refreshing and rapid after Hockenheim, Spa and Assen have all been castrated in recent seasons. Chin up, lads !

[Rob]

I'd be interested in seeing a 125cc four stroke class as it reflects current entry level biking. I can't help feeling that there's a bit of a gap to the 600cc Moto2 bikes though. Maybe there ought to be a 350/400cc class to bridge the gap.

[mba21]

Well this has certainly got peeps talking,and airing there views on the subject,but unfortunately its up to the tossers at the top who get mega money to sort this pile o shite out.........
mutter mutter mutter...............I am off for a swim and a nice cool beer,and then maybe some f*@!*ng.......... <0(((((<{ ..........

Edited by mba21, 21 June 2010 - 09:28.

[philippe7]

What, you're going to be fixing some old bike ?

[mba21]

What, you're going to be fixing some old bike ?

Oi bloody cheek

[Herr Wankel]

rd500,
you thrashed the nail squarely on the head there.Just not enough machines on the grid for me,and a major chasm appearing between the chosen ones and the rest (who,make no mistake,are all bloody good riders) I think we may have been a little spoilt by Rossi,as when you take him out of the equation,it all seem well so much less.Definitely not enough REAL classes.Just hope the powers,spot/fix the problems before its too late.I know moto2 is close,but its still a one make series,and that can't be right for a GP class.
Nice rant rd500
HW
(bring back the chairs)

[fil2.8]

rd500,
you thrashed the nail squarely on the head there.Just not enough machines on the grid for me,and a major chasm appearing between the chosen ones and the rest (who,make no mistake,are all bloody good riders) I think we may have been a little spoilt by Rossi,as when you take him out of the equation,it all seem well so much less.Definitely not enough REAL classes.Just hope the powers,spot/fix the problems before its too late.I know moto2 is close,but its still a one make series,and that can't be right for a GP class.
Nice rant rd500
HW
(bring back the chairs)

Well said , HW , iv'e always found the secret of a successful business , and racing is a business as well as a sport , is to give the public what the public wants , not what you or your committee want , and clearly the knowing public do not want the present set-up , and I would guess even the teams do not want !!

[Herr Wankel]

Well said , HW , iv'e always found the secret of a successful business , and racing is a business as well as a sport , is to give the public what the public wants , not what you or your committee want , and clearly the knowing public do not want the present set-up , and I would guess even the teams do not want !!

Yes fil,but the "knowing public" are not the big audience these days.Its they global tv lot that are vastly more important than us grizzled old B's.I can't help thinking that our reminders are not what Mr Dorna wants to hear! As ever I stand to be corrected
Old HW

[graham houlihan]

Dare I say it guys but you're really sounding like a bunch of gruppy old men.

The 70,000 people who turned up at Silverstone (including my 70 year old Dad who had a great day), the 100,000+ at Assen next weekend (which will include me) and the 200,000 at the Spanish races would not agree that there is anything wrong with MotoGP, Moto2 and 125. The arguments here about the "good old days" of 2-stroke RGs and TZs sound like those that appeared in letters in the Motor Cycle during the 60s, when the writers whinged about the Japanese 2-strokes and cried about there Manx Nortons, Gileras, Mondials etc as "real racing bikes".

The point is I'm in my 40s and don't consider myself as Dorna's "primary target audience" for MotoGP, and as looking through your ages only 1 person on this thread seems under 50, I would say that you are definitely not either. I go to 3 or 4 GPs every year and I'd say that the average age is well under 35 nowadays (even younger in Spain and here in Italy) and these people love it. No doubt they will look back in 25 years at today and think it was so much better.

On the other points:

- Full grids would be great, but not if there are 15 guys going round and getting lapped. Have you all forgotten the 80s when guys like Schmassmann, Doppler and even Peter Graves used to get kicked at regularly by Eddie Lawson as he went by?

- I'll be sad to see the 125s go but there is no point in having a 2-stroke class when the major manufacturers don't make 2-strokes (except Aprilia)

- Moto2 is a fantastic class which has replaced a boring, unequal 250 class. OK, it's one make, standard, etc but it is fast and loud with close racing and I'd much rather see that than know that the bike 30 seconds in the lead has a magnesium this and a titanium that. What it has done is bring back small, specialist companies like Harris, Moriwaki and Suter in the way that guys like Nico Bakker, etc did in the 80s. In a couple of years it will be an open engine class, but this was the only way to launch it.

- I do agree that when Rossi finally does go it will have a big impact. Lorenzo is trying to make himself into a personality but the others are too controlled by the PR guys, but that is a function of our time.

Yes, the most exciting thing for me on the BBC coverage yesterday was the 5 minutes of 79 Roberts/Sheene and I don't find GPs as exciting as I did, but I'm getting older too I guess. But GP racing is not as broken as you all seem to think.

PS. I hope this is laid out and punctuated well enough for you all to read.

[bsracer]

- I'll be sad to see the 125s go but there is no point in having a 2-stroke class when the major manufacturers don't make 2-strokes (except Aprilia)

It would be really sad to see the 125s go. Crf250's/450's shoved into all the old 125 frames is next! Too bad the "major manufacturer" has so much influence. It seems to me that Derbi, Aprilia and Ktm can provide more than enough bikes(with some of the best 125 racing we've seen). Honda should just start their own race series with all their own bikes, riders and classes and see how long it lasts.

paul

[Terryt]

Dare I say it guys but you're really sounding like a bunch of gruppy old men.

The 70,000 people who turned up at Silverstone (including my 70 year old Dad who had a great day), the 100,000+ at Assen next weekend (which will include me) and the 200,000 at the Spanish races would not agree that there is anything wrong with MotoGP, Moto2 and 125. The arguments here about the "good old days" of 2-stroke RGs and TZs sound like those that appeared in letters in the Motor Cycle during the 60s, when the writers whinged about the Japanese 2-strokes and cried about there Manx Nortons, Gileras, Mondials etc as "real racing bikes".

The point is I'm in my 40s and don't consider myself as Dorna's "primary target audience" for MotoGP, and as looking through your ages only 1 person on this thread seems under 50, I would say that you are definitely not either. I go to 3 or 4 GPs every year and I'd say that the average age is well under 35 nowadays (even younger in Spain and here in Italy) and these people love it. No doubt they will look back in 25 years at today and think it was so much better.

On the other points:

- Full grids would be great, but not if there are 15 guys going round and getting lapped. Have you all forgotten the 80s when guys like Schmassmann, Doppler and even Peter Graves used to get kicked at regularly by Eddie Lawson as he went by?

- I'll be sad to see the 125s go but there is no point in having a 2-stroke class when the major manufacturers don't make 2-strokes (except Aprilia)

- Moto2 is a fantastic class which has replaced a boring, unequal 250 class. OK, it's one make, standard, etc but it is fast and loud with close racing and I'd much rather see that than know that the bike 30 seconds in the lead has a magnesium this and a titanium that. What it has done is bring back small, specialist companies like Harris, Moriwaki and Suter in the way that guys like Nico Bakker, etc did in the 80s. In a couple of years it will be an open engine class, but this was the only way to launch it.

- I do agree that when Rossi finally does go it will have a big impact. Lorenzo is trying to make himself into a personality but the others are too controlled by the PR guys, but that is a function of our time.

Yes, the most exciting thing for me on the BBC coverage yesterday was the 5 minutes of 79 Roberts/Sheene and I don't find GPs as exciting as I did, but I'm getting older too I guess. But GP racing is not as broken as you all seem to think.

PS. I hope this is laid out and punctuated well enough for you all to read.

Some very good points in there Graham. I do remember when I was a whipper snapper, I used to get bored stiff when the old boys wanted to tell me what was wrong with the racing and how it was all better in their day. What goes around comes around, heh? .
I don´t have an avid interest in MGP, but it is fine if the younger guys think it´s good. I have my memories.

[Mats Karlsson]

Drastic changes need to be made......................give your thoughts on how it could be better

The perfect scenario would be to have MotoGP and World Supers combined, I really don't think there's a market for two world championships. Just one World Champion, MotoGP, the rest being FIM cup champions, or European Champions, and have at least 24 riders on the MotoGP, I hate that name, grid...........my two cents.

[Herr Wankel]

[quote name='graham houlihan' date='Jun 21 2010, 16:07' post='4427187']
Dare I say it guys but you're really sounding like a bunch of gruppy old men.

Us,Grumpy. Surely not Graham Anyway,Nostalgia aint what it used to be! Its an ever changing scenario (MotoGP that is) and I'm sure (hope) that "The Powers" will come up with something to perk us old gits up,sooner or later
HW

[Coupe Kawasaki]

Just one point on this...maybe we are getting on a bit but there are and have been golden periods in almost anything you can think of so as it's a nostalgia forum then it doesn't really matter to me what they do with MotoGP

I'm just glad we were around in a 'golden period'...I just don't see anyone picking up an oil flag like Schwantz did at Donington these days...pure magic

David

[stuavant]

Just one point on this...maybe we are getting on a bit but there are and have been golden periods in almost anything you can think of so as it's a nostalgia forum then it doesn't really matter to me what they do with MotoGP

I'm just glad we were around in a 'golden period'...I just don't see anyone picking up an oil flag like Schwantz did at Donington these days...pure magic

David

The Grid is to small in MotoGP and we are presently lacking personal duels as in Lawson, 34, Rainey and so on. F1 has a few ( Vettel and Webber) and I am watching a bit of it. Things go in cycles and I hope the FIM or whoever sorts it out, gets rid of traction control ( its called a throttle guys) and rather than sitting on there fat wallets, work on a Formula thats easier to like. I do agree with some post's though, its thrilling to see a MotoGp flat out!

[SADBATCCM]

The Grid is to small in MotoGP and we are presently lacking personal duels as in Lawson, 34, Rainey and so on. F1 has a few ( Vettel and Webber) and I am watching a bit of it. Things go in cycles and I hope the FIM or whoever sorts it out, gets rid of traction control ( its called a throttle guys) and rather than sitting on there fat wallets, work on a Formula thats easier to like. I do agree with some post's though, its thrilling to see a MotoGp flat out!

evening all sad old fart here ... under 50

[mba21]

evening all sad old fart here ... under 50

Old fart Ello

Edited by mba21, 21 June 2010 - 22:28.

[Russell Burrows]

I think it’s difficult to argue that all’s well when the main event – the supposed pinnacle of one of the world’s most exciting sports – is routinely eclipsed for drama and spectacle by the ‘lesser’ classes. Tiny grids and a seemingly large gap in performance between the quickest three or so and the rest, detracts hugely from Moto GP.

If I were the head honcho with carte blanche to rectify this, I think I would be wanting to see some sort of formula that restricted hugely expensive developments, affordable only by the major factories. All of that though would have to be long term stuff. What about in the here and now insisting that teams run a minimum number of bikes. Even if each manufacturer/team was to add one more rider to their set up, it could only liven things up ? There must be a way of encouraging the makers to do this, even if it meant they received some sort of subsidy? Or if you wanted to go really radical: run the WSB in the same race with, of course, some sort of handicap? How long would it take Rossi to catch Leon…… Or perhaps the answer is to be found in merely copying the formula governing Moto 2 ?

While it's true that spectators do come to GP’s, logic suggests these numbers would be increased further if the big race was invariably the best. I might even go and have a gander myself.

Oh yes, I too hope the grammarians among you are not too offended by this offering.

Edited by Russell Burrows, 22 June 2010 - 10:28.

[bobness]

I think it’s difficult to argue that all’s well when the main event – the supposed pinnacle of one of the world’s most exciting sports – is routinely eclipsed for drama and spectacle by the ‘lesser’ classes. Tiny grids and a seemingly large gap in performance between the quickest three or so and the rest, detracts hugely from Moto GP.

Absolutely.
Compare and contrast WSB, where pretty much all the top runners have found themselves scrapping for 6-12th place at times this year. Moto2 as well. Elias was lucky to make the top 10 Sunday. Iannone, last round's winner, was nowhere most of the race.

There's too much of a gap in MotoGP between the "package" of "the aliens" and the rest.

A Moto2 type template works for me. Ban "sophisticated" electronics. Let the rider decide. Bring back the RG. Etc.

[Rob]

Maybe the technology is so sophisticated now that the manufacturers are becoming less interested in spending more and more money on prototypes.

[fil2.8]

Maybe the technology is so sophisticated now that the manufacturers are becoming less interested in spending more and more money on prototypes.

Well , Rob , go back in history , all the works bikes , at any time were highly sophisticated at that particular moment , be it a 2-stroke Scott , Rudge Ulster , right through to a DKW , Moto - Guzzi V8 , Honda 1 ,2, 3, 4 , 5, 6 's , Yamaha 4's etc , there's an old saying , racing improves the breed ,