84 replies to this topic

[graham houlihan]

"There's too much of a gap in MotoGP between the "package" of "the aliens" and the rest. "

Think we are looking back and imaging that racing was much closer in the past when it simply wasn't (500 GPs that is)

Here's a stato for you:

- So far this year two of the five MotoGP races have seen the sixth place finisher arrive within 10 seconds of the winner. One of those races was Silverstone!

Question: Between 1980 and 1999 how many times did this happen?

Edited by graham houlihan, 22 June 2010 - 15:17.

[graham houlihan]

Well , Rob , go back in history , all the works bikes , at any time were highly sophisticated at that particular moment , be it a 2-stroke Scott , Rudge Ulster , right through to a DKW , Moto - Guzzi V8 , Honda 1 ,2, 3, 4 , 5, 6 's , Yamaha 4's etc , there's an old saying , racing improves the breed ,

Quite right Phil, talking sense for a change

There has always been 2 levels of machines and always been 2 levels of riders

Edited by graham houlihan, 22 June 2010 - 15:25.

[fil2.8]

[quote name='graham houlihan' date='Jun 22 2010, 16:15' post='4428735']
Quite right Phil, talking sense for a change

I'm surprised you could tell the difference , Graham

[graham houlihan]

It's a thin line....

[fil2.8]

It's a thin line....

Yes , Graham , they do say that there is a thin line between a genius and an idiot , as you and I know

[Russell Burrows]

Quite right Phil, talking sense for a change

There has always been 2 levels of machines and always been 2 levels of riders

Yeah, and for long periods some classes of racing were in a really unhealthy state( Ago's/Surtees's dominance of 500's for example), so definitely something to try to avoid. We've not seen quite the same level of dominance from Rossi and Stoner, but its kinda getting there. We have proof positive that close and exciting racing is achievable, why not tweak the big class to something aproximating WSB/Moto 2 ?

[graham houlihan]

Yeah, and for long periods some classes of racing were in a really unhealthy state( Ago's/Surtees's dominance of 500's for example), so definitely something to try to avoid. We've not seen quite the same level of dominance from Rossi and Stoner, but its kinda getting there. We have proof positive that close and exciting racing is achievable, why not tweak the big class to something aproximating WSB/Moto 2 ?

Not having a guess at my question above, Rus ?

[Russell Burrows]

"There's too much of a gap in MotoGP between the "package" of "the aliens" and the rest. "

Think we are looking back and imaging that racing was much closer in the past when it simply wasn't (500 GPs that is)

Here's a stato for you:

So far this year two of the five MotoGP races have seen the sixth place finisher arrive within 10 seconds of the winner. One of those races was Silverstone!

Question: Between 1980 and 1999 how many times did this happen?

So 60% of races this year were a bit iffy?;) I wonder how many have been really close since Moto GP began?

Don't know the answer to your question Graham, but I suspect you do ? I don't think I've said things were always better way back when, cos I know it wasn't always the case. But I don't think we can get away from the facts that a small number of riders have dominated, the grids are tiny and as a result the racing just isn't the spectacle that it could be and crucially, the other races are invariably more exciting.

Edited by Russell Burrows, 22 June 2010 - 18:13.

[Coupe Kawasaki]

How I feel about it all


When I was about 10 I spent a week on holiday camping next to a trout stream in the Welsh countryside. I remember I caught 38 trout in the week and loved every minute as kids do when they have something new. Years later I stayed for a night there and caught 67 trout in 3 hours in the morning and it was nowhere near as brilliant as the week as an 10 year old.


Some things are better kept as memories maybe


Daisy

[mba21]

How I feel about it all


When I was about 10 I spent a week on holiday camping next to a trout stream in the Welsh countryside. I remember I caught 38 trout in the week and loved every minute as kids do when they have something new. Years later I stayed for a night there and caught 67 trout in 3 hours in the morning and it was nowhere near as brilliant as the week as an 10 year old.


Some things are better kept as memories maybe


Daisy

Oi Daphne enuff of fishing this is all about racing motorcycles ......................

[Russell Burrows]

How I feel about it all


When I was about 10 I spent a week on holiday camping next to a trout stream in the Welsh countryside. I remember I caught 38 trout in the week and loved every minute as kids do when they have something new. Years later I stayed for a night there and caught 67 trout in 3 hours in the morning and it was nowhere near as brilliant as the week as an 10 year old.


Some things are better kept as memories maybe


Daisy

Eric Cantona 1994?

[Coupe Kawasaki]

I was manager of a kids footie team then Russ and had to explain how disgraceful his behaviour was whilst secretly admiring his dealing with one of those morons in the crowd


Daisy

[Lights]

I watch a race now and then, but every time I do I'm shocked by the grid of .. 15 riders. 15? Really? It's simply way too small. For the rest, I have no problems with it.

[graham houlihan]

How I feel about it all


When I was about 10 I spent a week on holiday camping next to a trout stream in the Welsh countryside. I remember I caught 38 trout in the week and loved every minute as kids do when they have something new. Years later I stayed for a night there and caught 67 trout in 3 hours in the morning and it was nowhere near as brilliant as the week as an 10 year old.


Some things are better kept as memories maybe


Daisy

Totally agree.

I was 10 when I went to Assen for the Dutch TT on a coach trip with my father. It was 1976, so the long hot summer and it was REALLY hot that day. We were there at 10 in the morning to see 50cc, then 125, 250, etc. It was my first foreign GP and was a great experience. I've been back probably 20 times since and I've got a flight booked tomorrow to go this year. Sure I'll enjoy it but it won't be the same as 76.

[mba21]

Its a good job there are a couple of support races for the so called cream of MotoGP,otherwise I don't think many people would bother there arses to go and see 15 riders compete in the so called pinnacle of motorcycle racing,MotoGP ..................... The governing body should sort the bloody lot out,and quickly.!!!!!!!!!

[Terryt]

Totally agree.

I was 10 when I went to Assen for the Dutch TT on a coach trip with my father. It was 1976, so the long hot summer and it was REALLY hot that day. We were there at 10 in the morning to see 50cc, then 125, 250, etc. It was my first foreign GP and was a great experience. I've been back probably 20 times since and I've got a flight booked tomorrow to go this year. Sure I'll enjoy it but it won't be the same as 76.

I was there as well Graham. It was over 40° on race day. There was a sidecar guy who actually "died" after the race from heat exhaustion, but luckily the first aid attendants managed to get his heart going again.
Never known heat like that in my life, ever.

[HEMEYLA]

I was there as well Graham. It was over 40° on race day. There was a sidecar guy who actually "died" after the race from heat exhaustion, but luckily the first aid attendants managed to get his heart going again.
Never known heat like that in my life, ever.

TT Assen 1976 sidecar winners Hermann Schmid / Jean-Pierre Martial.

[Rennmax]

Another one from Assen '76

[GD66]

Is that Dieter Braun with Chas ?

[Rennmax]

Is that Dieter Braun with Chas ?

Yep

[stuavant]

Yep

Ah the summer of 76. Bloody hot right through until late Sept IIRC?

[mp025004]

I'm a bit late coming onto this topic, but I think the Moto2 class is a step in the right direction - apart from getting rid of 250's. The only thing I'd change in that class is to allow other engine manufacturers to provide control engines. What this class brings us is power units that don't cost the earth and the best bit, is the opportunity to tinker, with freedom of chassis design.

The sport's governing bodies seem to be in thrall of the major manufacturers, especially Honda, and they are dictating what we should be riding on the road. Everything looks the same from club level to World Superbikes.

Introduce the control engines and let the older bikes find their way into National classes and then we may start to see a natural progression where local riders get a chance to compete in world rounds, later on bikes will find their way to club level. This will take away the stifling circumstances of MotoGP with only 16 competitive bikes in the World.

I taped Assen, is it worth watching?

[picblanc]

I'm a bit late coming onto this topic, but I think the Moto2 class is a step in the right direction - apart from getting rid of 250's. The only thing I'd change in that class is to allow other engine manufacturers to provide control engines. What this class brings us is power units that don't cost the earth and the best bit, is the opportunity to tinker, with freedom of chassis design.

The sport's governing bodies seem to be in thrall of the major manufacturers, especially Honda, and they are dictating what we should be riding on the road. Everything looks the same from club level to World Superbikes.

Introduce the control engines and let the older bikes find their way into National classes and then we may start to see a natural progression where local riders get a chance to compete in world rounds, later on bikes will find their way to club level. This will take away the stifling circumstances of MotoGP with only 16 competitive bikes in the World.

I taped Assen, is it worth watching?

Not really dull 125, not bad Moto2 but not the best race of the year, MotoGP the usual yawn after 3or4 laps, IMO.

[mp025004]

Not really dull 125, not bad Moto2 but not the best race of the year, MotoGP the usual yawn after 3or4 laps, IMO.

I won't bother then.

[mba21]

Not really dull 125, not bad Moto2 but not the best race of the year, MotoGP the usual yawn after 3or4 laps, IMO.

Have to agree with you today......................

[Coupe Kawasaki]

here's the 1976 500...








David

[picblanc]

here's the 1976 500...








David

Great bit of video nostalgia, Saturdays MotoGP race was marginally more exciting though!
Assen now though is a pale shadow of a once great circuit, in fact there is only one real passing place apparently, at entry to chicane?

[mba21]

How about reverting back to the old method of starting......Push Start........That would make it more interesting........

[Rennmax]

Great bit of video nostalgia, Saturdays MotoGP race was marginally more exciting though!
Assen now though is a pale shadow of a once great circuit, in fact there is only one real passing place apparently, at entry to chicane?

Hi Graham, don't want to spoil the party, but the dominance of BS then on a far superior bike was not too exciting either IMHO

Edited by Rennmax, 28 June 2010 - 11:23.

[stuavant]

Hi Graham, don't want to spoil the party, but the dominance of BS then on a far superior bike was not too exciting either IMHO

I kinda disagree. Barry's bike was a bit better but not MV vs Manx Norton and the best man, not bike, won on the day.

[Rennmax]

I kinda disagree. Barry's bike was a bit better but not MV vs Manx Norton and the best man, not bike, won on the day.

No doubt about it, I thought the comparision was between the BS bike and Suzuki production racers in the mid-seventies and the situation nowadays, where is probably not such much difference between a Honda, Yamaha or Ducati works bike and if this specific race was more exciting than a normal MotoGP, which I honestly doubt. Apart from that, didn't have Michel Rougerie once the chance to use one of Barry's bikes in Spa in practice, and he was flabbergasted by the difference ? I think we had this topic in this forum a couple of months/years ago...
No intention to have the slightest doubt about BSs ability of course (how would I dare!), but nevertheless he received the real works bikes and his teammates John Williams,Pat Hennen or John Newbold more or less production racers in official livery?? Stand corrected though if you have a different view Stu, you are a lot more competent in this matter than me. Regards

Edited by Rennmax, 28 June 2010 - 13:35.

[picblanc]

Hi Graham, don't want to spoil the party, but the dominance of BS then on a far superior bike was not too exciting either IMHO

100% agree Renn, I didnt want to rain on Dave's parade to much, and in 1976 Barry had both the full factory RG500 what ever the XR numbers were? Newbold & Williams had bog standard customer bikes as you say painted up to look like Barrys, Williams was pretty incencenced by that & was replaced at the end of the year by Pat, I think Pat though had an equal bike, poss the year befores factory machine?
Rose tinted speccys tend to think that racing was closer in the 70's, it wasnt really much differant, but there were full grids of around 40 riders at all races, which made it a better spectacle for the early laps & those trackside.
I think the answer is 1000cc engines from one maybe two suppliers all sealed & supplied on first day of practice at each GP, put into Moto2 type chasis with 30 riders on the grid, no full factory bikes but factory frames/chasis allowed from whoever supplies the engines, but no complete bikes.
Got to be better than 15 exotic bikes with 6 riders with any chance of a win!

[Rennmax]

100% agree Renn, I didnt want to rain on Dave's parade to much, and in 1976 Barry had both the full factory RG500 what ever the XR numbers were? Newbold & Williams had bog standard customer bikes as you say painted up to look like Barrys, Williams was pretty incencenced by that & was replaced at the end of the year by Pat, I think Pat though had an equal bike, poss the year befores factory machine?
Rose tinted speccys tend to think that racing was closer in the 70's, it wasnt really much differant, but there were full grids of around 40 riders at all races, which made it a better spectacle for the early laps & those trackside.
I think the answer is 1000cc engines from one maybe two suppliers all sealed & supplied on first day of practice at each GP, put into Moto2 type chasis with 30 riders on the grid, no full factory bikes but factory frames/chasis allowed from whoever supplies the engines, but no complete bikes.
Got to be better than 15 exotic bikes with 6 riders with any chance of a win!

Hi Graham, thanks for your points of view which I share very much. Of course, 15 riders on the grid is a shame, the MotoGp bikes sound lousy (at least on the telly), the leg on the tarmac "style" when braking for a corner makes me vomit etc etc. ... the discussion reminds me a little bit of the "golden" seventies when my father told me that racing was a kind of knickknack compared to the Jimmy Guthrie/Stanley Woods era, so everything is only a sign of the times eventually.... Anyway, how big the entry might be, there will always be only half a dozen at the top level fighting for the podium, can hardly remember any period or class (even manufacturer's cup races) when it was different. Cheers
PS: Sorry that the German soccer team is still around, hoped your team would make an end to that travesty

Edited by Rennmax, 28 June 2010 - 18:23.

[fil2.8]

Hi Graham, thanks for your points of view which I share very much. Of course, 15 riders on the grid is a shame, the MotoGp bikes sound lousy (at least on the telly), the leg on the tarmac "style" when braking for a corner makes me vomit etc etc. ... the discussion reminds me a little bit of the "golden" seventies when my father told me that racing was a kind of knickknack compared to the Jimmy Guthrie/Stanley Woods era. Anyway, how big the entry might be, there will always be only half a dozen at the top level fighting for the podium, can hardly remember any period or class (even manufacturer's cup races) when it was different. Cheers

Very true , Renn , the leg down , why ?? , but going back to the size of the grids in the sixties -- early eighties , nice large grids , and you could predict the first three perhaps , but it was the battles right through the field which was the interest for the spectators

[bsracer]

How about reverting back to the old method of starting......Push Start........That would make it more interesting........

They have a support race in AHRMA here in the US at most of the bigger venues with Honda 160/175's running a Le Mans start (I do sneek my Bridgestone 2 stroker in though). Last year I was in a race with 37 riders including Doug Polen, who won even though he started 37th! At a race this year in Portland they had 50+ starters. I want to suggest that all races either have LeMans or GP start but too many of the riders need rollers to get their bikes going!

paul