52 replies to this topic

[dudi1]

Hello!

I am looking for the exact Ferrari car types driving in 1950 F1 season and photos of all of them. I am really disappointed that I can´t find a normal source that I can trust. I think on every different site there are different informations and different photos.

If you check this site, it is completely wrong in my opinion:

http://www.allf1.inf...ams/ferrari.php

1. The model 125 isn´t a 125, I am sure.
2. The model 166S is in my opinion Ferrari 212
3. The mode 375 looks like a Ferrari 500.... And lot more

On many sites these cars are mentioned for 1950:

Ferrari 125
Ferrari 166
Ferrari 166S (or 166 I, 166 T, 166 SC)
Ferrari 275
Ferrari 375

Now here are some photos I found searching for 1950 cars:

1. Mentioned as 166SC or 166 I (or S? T?). Though it is using a Jaguar V6 engine, not sure.
http://img340.images.../50f1monza2.jpg
2. Mentioned as 125:
http://img693.images...0a6f0de8db1.jpg
3. Mentioned as 125/166 F2:
http://img208.images...86d3790eb7b.jpg
4. Mentioned also as 125/166 F2:
http://img717.images...157765d160o.jpg
http://img541.images...0809d63ee0z.jpg
5. Mentioned as 125 1949 but I think it isn´t.
http://img295.images...ri125f11949.jpg
6.Mentioned as 166C but also I think totally different, something like 500.
http://img203.images...ferrari166c.jpg
7. Also a 125, now 1948:
http://img812.images...rari125fari.jpg
8. Some 166 F2:
http://img441.images...58baa5870fo.jpg
9.166/212:
http://img175.images...a8d8e52d41o.jpg

So, I would like you to just check these photos + look for an exact list of all 1950 F1 cars with photos and informations which GP they drove and driver.

Edited by dudi1, 04 July 2010 - 21:05.

[SWB]

It might just be easier to buy a book than spend so much time trying to cross reference images on the internet.

Steve

[Vitesse2]

The most accurate source is almost certainly the listings on Allen Brown's Old Racing Cars site. Read the notes on the right of the page and see if you agree:

http://www.oldracingcars.com/f1/1950/

[ERault]

Dudi1,

The book Ferrari by Tanner & Nye can be bought very cheaply these days (there is one on ebay right one) and will give you a very good view on the subjet, with sportscars and (a bit on) road cars as well.

[dudi1]

The most accurate source is almost certainly the listings on Allen Brown's Old Racing Cars site. Read the notes on the right of the page and see if you agree:

http://www.oldracingcars.com/f1/1950/

Thanks for the resource, I can see the types of the cars, but are there some pictures/photos of every GP somewhere?

[rudi]

Thanks for the resource, I can see the types of the cars, but are there some pictures/photos of every GP somewhere?

Concerning the early years, best book with photos is Ferrari Automobili 1947-1953. Authors Millanta, Orsini, Zagari.

[dudi1]

Concerning the early years, best book with photos is Ferrari Automobili 1947-1953. Authors Millanta, Orsini, Zagari.

Isn´t there really a good internet photo archive with car numbers also?

[David McKinney]

Isn´t there really a good internet photo archive with car numbers also?

Is there one of these for any GP car (apart from the last ten years or so)?

[RStock]

I've done some looking at various sites I use, ones which I consider reliable and maybe I can help with the photos.

1. Looks like I can see a number 2, so it makes me think it is the number 22 166 used by Clemente Biondetti for the 1950 Italian GP, a private entry. And yes, it used a Jaguar engine.

2. One of the Thinwall Specials. I'm guessing a 375, but hard to tell with that photo.

3. A 166. I'm guessing the one used by Ascari to win the F2 race at Reims. He ran number 16. Fangio did also in some of the Argentina races, but I don't see one of the little "scoops" on the left side(looking at the car), but there also appears to be a dent there? so perhaps it's just mashed down. From the photo's I've checked, I could clearly see the scoops on the car when Fangio drove it, but i couldn't when Ascari won in it.

4a. I'm guessing one of the cars owned by Wilke Wilkinson and David Murray, a 125. Don't know when or where, but evidently before they formed Ecurie Ecosse.

4b. Again a 125. Benedicto Campos drove a number 6 125 in Argentina in 1950, so likely it's that car.

5. Another 125. From a reputable source, it's Ferrari's first monoposto which competed at Turin in 1948 and with which Ascari won the 1949 Swiss GP.

6. Don't know?

7. I've seen that photo given as Farina at Penya Rhin in 1948, but my records don't show there being a Ferrari at that race. It certainly looks like Farina, and that's a 125, so I'm guessing it was taken at Gardena in 1948, where Farina took Ferrari's first win.

8. Ascari's car from Monaco in 1950. He finished 2nd in Ferrari's first race in the new championship.

9. Don't know.

That's my best effort. Hopefully if I'm wrong someone will come along and straighten us out, and believe me they will. It might take some time, so be patient. Hope this helps.

[mcwidow70]

Hello!

I am looking for the exact Ferrari car types driving in 1950 F1 season and photos of all of them. I am really disappointed that I can´t find a normal source that I can trust. I think on every different site there are different informations and different photos.


If you check this site, it is completely wrong in my opinion:

http://www.allf1.inf...ams/ferrari.php

1. The model 125 isn´t a 125, I am sure.
2. The model 166S is in my opinion Ferrari 212
3. The mode 375 looks like a Ferrari 500.... And lot more

On many sites these cars are mentioned for 1950:

Ferrari 125
Ferrari 166
Ferrari 166S (or 166 I, 166 T, 166 SC)
Ferrari 275
Ferrari 375

Now here are some photos I found searching for 1950 cars:

1. Mentioned as 166SC or 166 I (or S? T?). Though it is using a Jaguar V6 engine, not sure.
http://img340.images.../50f1monza2.jpg
2. Mentioned as 125:
http://img693.images...0a6f0de8db1.jpg
3. Mentioned as 125/166 F2:
http://img208.images...86d3790eb7b.jpg
4. Mentioned also as 125/166 F2:
http://img717.images...157765d160o.jpg
http://img541.images...0809d63ee0z.jpg
5. Mentioned as 125 1949 but I think it isn´t.
http://img295.images...ri125f11949.jpg
6.Mentioned as 166C but also I think totally different, something like 500.
http://img203.images...ferrari166c.jpg
7. Also a 125, now 1948:
http://img812.images...rari125fari.jpg
8. Some 166 F2:
http://img441.images...58baa5870fo.jpg
9.166/212:
http://img175.images...a8d8e52d41o.jpg

So, I would like you to just check these photos + look for an exact list of all 1950 F1 cars with photos and informations which GP they drove and driver.

If you tell me your mail I can send you a file with 1950 season race by race including chassis details

[Bruno]

Hello!


6.Mentioned as 166C but also I think totally different, something like 500.
http://img203.images...ferrari166c.jpg

???
24/5/53 GP des Frontières, Chimay: Roger Laurent/500 F2 0208 ???
or
31/5/53 Internationales ADAC, Nurburgring: Kurt Adolff/500 F2 0184 ???

[Jean L]

12/7/53 AVUS: Kurt Adolff.

[Arjan de Roos]

9. Is a 212 F1 1951 probably test car for the new 1954 formula as announced that year. Currently car resides in Holland. As the white triangle indicates a former car of the Ecurie Espadon.

[Arjan de Roos]

2. Ferrari 125/375 or the third Vanwall Special. Chassis 125 C-02 with (later) 4,5 litre engine.

[Arjan de Roos]

3. is the 125/166 F2 chassis 013F one of the two ACA owned cars. Now in the Fangio Museum.

Edited by Arjan de Roos, 08 July 2010 - 14:19.

[Arjan de Roos]

4. Is the 125/166 011F. Raced regularly in the past 20 years during historic events.

Edited by Arjan de Roos, 08 July 2010 - 14:22.

[Arjan de Roos]

5. Is the 125 F2 1949. Formerly in the Donington Collection.

[Arjan de Roos]

6. Could be the 500/625 F2 0184F for years in the Schlumpf Collection at Mulhouse (also a former Espadon car).

[dudi1]

Thank to all of you gentlemen for helping me. Your tips are a big help for me. Now I stuck at two cars, so here is a problem:

I was looking for the 166F2 car driving in the 1950 F1 season. During my research I found 5 different versions. Can you tell me where are they from? There are differences in grille shape, in exhaust, in cooling opening on the top of engine cover, in suspension... Many

10. http://img9.imagesha...2bremgarten.jpg

11. http://img6.imagesha...errari166f2.jpg

12. http://img18.imagesh...g18/50/2pop.jpg

13. http://img12.imagesh.../4542/245gn.jpg

14. http://img20.imagesh...rrari166f21.jpg

I think that the picture number 10 or 11 is definitely the original 1950 166 car. Were there some other versions of it?

________________________________________________________________________________
________

Next I am not sure about this Ferrari 125 car... Is it really another version of 1950 125?

15. http://img534.images...03/19500422.jpg

Btw this looks like a Thinwall special, but really close to that 125 in shape, but it says 375...

16. http://img293.images...3/fer375tws.jpg


________________________________________________________________________________
________

Last thing in this post, I found some info that a Ferrari 340 raced in 1950 F1 season... But I haven´t got any info about it, just a few pics...

17a. http://img69.imagesh...871/image51.gif
17b. http://img806.images...332/image50.gif


________________________________________________________________________________
________
If you got more photos of Formula 1 1950 166F2 car or other 1950 F1 Ferraris please contact me at race@race.sk

Edited by dudi1, 11 July 2010 - 15:15.

[RStock]

Dave, trying to determine who used what, when and where just from photo's can be daunting and doesn't always give you the correct answer. Keep in mind that often these photo's could be from practice, and what is used in practice isn't always what's used in the race, and numbers change from practice to race time also. I'd say about the best you can do is be reasonably certain.

I know it can be tedious and overwhelming, but the best way to go about using the photo's to make a call is to try and find the car number cross referenced on several reliable sites, the ones that give car numbers that is, as not all do. And even that isn't always going to give you the correct answer, but as I say, perhaps you can be reasonably certain.

So here are links to several sites that I use, and have found them to be rather reliable and informative sources. Once you learn to navigate them, you'll find a lot of info and photos. And remember to always check the non-championship races and South America ones as well. Good luck.

http://statsf1.com/default.aspx

http://www.jmfangio.org/historial.html

http://www.silhouet....e/f1/title.html

http://www.teamdan.c...n/temporad.html

http://www.racing-da...e.com/index.htm

[Michael Müller]

Tipo 125, experimental with shorter wheelbase and DeDion rear.
Only raced once by Villoresi at the 1950 Swiss GP (photo). Bodywork went to TWS #2, chassis was used for the 2nd tipo 275 heavily crashed by Villoresi at Geneva same year.


Tipo 166 F2/50, #GP1-49, wb 2320 mm, DeDion, 2 built in 1950 plus a 3rd one early 1951.
Raymond Sommer at Bremgarten 1950, used same car and race number in the F1 GP and in the F2 support race, shadow make me believe photo is from the GP.


Tipo 375, Ascari at the 1951 British GP Silverstone.


Tipo 375 in modern time.


Thinwall Special #3, based on #2 (tipo 125) but converted to DeDion and 375 engine.
Reg Parnell at the 1951 French GP Reims.


Same car as in photo #2, Tipo 166 F2/50 #GP1-49, Ascari at the 1950 Gran Premio di Modena (Formula 2).


Tipo 500, Taruffi at the 1952 Swiss GP at Bremgarten.


Tipo 166 F2/49, wb 2160 mm, swing axle.
Villoresi at the 1949 Circuito di Garda at Salo.


Tipo 500 #0184, Ecurie Espadon car on loan to Kurt Adolff.
Avusrennen 1953, car abondoned at the infield of the banked north corner.

The other cars are too modern for me, identification only possible by consulting my files, no time for that yet.

[Michael Müller]

1. Mentioned as 166SC or 166 I (or S? T?). Though it is using a Jaguar V6 engine, not sure.
http://img340.images.../50f1monza2.jpg

Indeed Biondetti’s Jaguar Special at the 1951 Italian GP at Monza.
No Ferrari at all, chassis Maserati/Biondetti, engine Jaguar R6, bodywork from Ferrari 166 Inter SC #02C.

2. Mentioned as 125:
http://img693.images...0a6f0de8db1.jpg

Believe this is the newly recreated Thinwall Special #2/3, basis was frame #125-C-02 stored at the Donington collection, owner a leading figure of the actual F1 circus. IMHO a very bad recreation, as 125-C-02 neither as TWS #2 (125 engine) nor TWS #3 (375 engine) had such bodywork. Looks like the 1949 tipo 125, but that would be bending history.

3. Mentioned as 125/166 F2:
http://img208.images...86d3790eb7b.jpg

3. is the 125/166 F2 chassis 013F one of the two ACA owned cars. Now in the Fangio Museum.

Partly correct, but it was never a tipo 125. #013F always carried a 166 2 litre supercharged engine for the South American Formula Libre.

4. Mentioned also as 125/166 F2:
http://img717.images...157765d160o.jpg

Tipo 125/166 #10C from 1949, the Whitehead car. Originally it was a tipo 125 with 1.5 litre s/c engine, but converted later to 166 F2. In 1952 sold to David Murray who used the car for Bill Dobson in the British F2 championship and for some Formula Libre races. Photo has been taken at Turnberry where Dobson started in the FL race.

4. Mentioned also as 125/166 F2:
http://img541.images...0809d63ee0z.jpg

Indeed #011F, the other ACA car, a tipo 166 from 1949. Used in Europe with a 2 litre F2 engine, and in South America with a 2 litre s/c engine in Formula Libre.

5. Mentioned as 125 1949 but I think it isn´t.
http://img295.images...ri125f11949.jpg

Peter Whitehead’s tipo 125/166 from 1951, serial #0114. Rebodied works car #125-C-01 from 1949 (wb 2420 mm, swing axle). Had 2 engines, a 166 2 litre fir F2, and a 1.5 litre s/c for F1.

[Michael Müller]

6.Mentioned as 166C but also I think totally different, something like 500.
http://img203.images...ferrari166c.jpg

Same car and event as on last picture above. Kurt Adolff at the start of the 1953 Avusrennen (I have the complete photo).

7. Also a 125, now 1948:
http://img812.images...rari125fari.jpg

Tipo 125 GP from 1948. Nino Farina at the GP de Penya Rhin Spain.

8. Some 166 F2:
http://img441.images...58baa5870fo.jpg

Tipo 166 F2 as displayed at Maranello. 1949 car with wb 2160 mm and swing axle, rebodied in 1951. Reported being #0112.

9.166/212:
http://img175.images...a8d8e52d41o.jpg

9. Is a 212 F1 1951 probably test car for the new 1954 formula as announced that year. Currently car resides in Holland. As the white triangle indicates a former car of the Ecurie Espadon.

No, for sure no Espadon car! The livery is b...s..., done by an earlier owner. If my research is correct then this car has a long and interesting history. Started as experimental car (Villoresi Bremgarten) in 1950 with 125 engine, rebodied and reengined as tipo 275, crashed at Geneva, rebuilt as tipo 212 and numbered #0102, reengined as tipo 166 F2. Th engine actually in the car is a tipo 212 sports car unit.


The Ferrari typology is a mess, especially for the early cars. Main reason of course is the cylinder capacity designation, but also countless conversion, rebodyings, and renumberings. Already as early as 1948 one of the tipo 125 Grand Prix cars was equipped with tipo 166 engine in order to run the car in Formula 2 – was that now a 125 or a 166? The outer dimensions of the engines had been identical, so it was quite easy to switch between 166 and 125, sometimes the team did that over night in order to use the car Saturday in the F2 support race, and Sunday in the F1 Grand Prix. None of the 1948/49 works cars was a pure F1 or F2, they switched constantly engines. Only in 1950 they built specific cars for each series, but therefore the F1 cars saw quite a lot of engines - 125 s/c, 275, 340 and finally 375. When cars had been sold to privateers very often they came along with optional engines too, allowing them to enter F2 but also F1 races. From 1952 onwards the old GP formula lost importance, so nearly all of the older Colombo engined 125 cars had been finally converted to 166 F2.
Confusing is also the constant facelifting of the older cars, which make identifications over the years very difficult if not even impossible.

[Otto Grabe]

[quote name='Michael Müller' date='Jul 12 2010, 15:26' post='4473242']
Indeed Biondetti’s Jaguar Special at the 1951 Italian GP at Monza.


1950

[Michael Müller]

Oops - of course....

[dudi1]

Last thing in this post, I found some info that a Ferrari 340 raced in 1950 F1 season... But I haven´t got any info about it, just a few pics...

17a. http://img69.imagesh...871/image51.gif
17b. http://img806.images...332/image50.gif


________________________________________________________________________________
________
If you got more photos of Formula 1 1950 166F2 car or other 1950 F1 Ferraris please contact me at race@race.sk

Have you got any informations about that please? 340 car looks like 375 in my opinion. Is it a mistake or two different chassis?

[Michael Müller]

The tipo 340 was the 375 prototype, however, there had been various intermediate and experimental cars in 1950.

The standard works car in that season was the tipo 125 (2 cars) as introduced at the Italian GP in 1949. It had a very long wheelbase (2420 mm), the opposite extreme to the predecessor's 2160 mm. Also the engine was an improved development, DOHC and also double supercharger compared to the older model's SOHC / single sc. The suspension layout was basically unchanged, with a live swing axle at the rear.

Very early they found out that the swing axle is not really the state of the art, and that the wheelbase is too long especially for twisty circuits. They constructed a new car with shorter (2320 mm) wheelbase and DeDion rear end, but decided to test it first in Formula 2 configuration. First outing was at Pau on 10 April 1950, other races see above (Sommer at Bremgarten, Ascari at Modena, etc.).

The layout proved successful, and a new car was built for Formula 1. Although Tanner reports it had a wb of 2370 mm I doubt this, as this was still too long, and the 2320 mm of the F2 car had been found perfect. Therefore I'm quite sure that the car also had 2320 mm, and of course also the DeDion axle. This car was raced by Villoresi at the Swiss GP on 4 June.

Parallel to the chassis changes Lampredi finally won over Colombo with his concept of an atmospherical 4.5 litre engine instead of the 1.5 litre compressor unit. They took a tuned tipo 275 (3.3 litre) sports car engine and mounted it into one of the standard GP cars, the car then was tested by Ascari at the Belgian GP at Spa on 18 June, and Villoresi at the Albi GP 4 weeks later. Although the power was still far away from being competitive they found that the concept was promising, so the next step was to combine the new chassis with the new engine. This car was then raced by Villoresi at Geneva on 30 July, resulting in a horrible crash which killed 3 spectators and sent Villoresi to hospital for the rest of the season.

In that Geneva race Ascari drove a completely new GP / F1 car which combined all developments (2320 mm wheelbase, DeDion axle, big block engine) with also a new more modern bodywork. The engine was now enlarged to 4.1 litre, thus tipo 340. As said already, this was basically the 375 prototype although the full engine capacity not reached yet.

Traditionally the Italian GP, one of last season races, was the event the Italians introduced their GP cars for the next season. So it was no surprise that at Monza on 3 September Ferrari presented the new tipo 375 - now with full 4.5 litres - to media and public. 2 cars were entered for Ascari and Serafini (Villoresi still out of action). The tipo 340 was last used at the Penya Rhin GP on 29 October by Taruffi, for the 1951 season it was upgraded to full 375 specs.

Neither the 275 nor the 340 could be considered as separate models. Both 275's had been simply interim experimental cars, one with the old swing axle chassis, the other with the new DeDion rear end. Also the 340 was purely interim, because the final 375 engine was not available then.

[Manel Baró]

Tipo 125 GP from 1948. Nino Farina at the GP de Penya Rhin Spain.
...
The Ferrari typology is a mess, especially for the early cars. Main reason of course is the cylinder capacity designation, but also countless conversion, rebodyings, and renumberings. Already as early as 1948 one of the tipo 125 Grand Prix cars was equipped with tipo 166 engine in order to run the car in Formula 2 – was that now a 125 or a 166? The outer dimensions of the engines had been identical, so it was quite easy to switch between 166 and 125, sometimes the team did that over night in order to use the car Saturday in the F2 support race, and Sunday in the F1 Grand Prix. None of the 1948/49 works cars was a pure F1 or F2, they switched constantly engines.
Confusing is also the constant facelifting of the older cars, which make identifications over the years very difficult if not even impossible.
[/quote]

Yes indeed. Any chance to define the chassis & engine nos of the three 125GP raced at the 1948 Penya Rhin and their relative history?. Any of them still around? Many tks!

[dudi1]

The tipo 340 was the 375 prototype, however, there had been various intermediate and experimental cars in 1950.

The standard works car in that season was the tipo 125 (2 cars) as introduced at the Italian GP in 1949. It had a very long wheelbase (2420 mm), the opposite extreme to the predecessor's 2160 mm. Also the engine was an improved development, DOHC and also double supercharger compared to the older model's SOHC / single sc. The suspension layout was basically unchanged, with a live swing axle at the rear.

Very early they found out that the swing axle is not really the state of the art, and that the wheelbase is too long especially for twisty circuits. They constructed a new car with shorter (2320 mm) wheelbase and DeDion rear end, but decided to test it first in Formula 2 configuration. First outing was at Pau on 10 April 1950, other races see above (Sommer at Bremgarten, Ascari at Modena, etc.).

The layout proved successful, and a new car was built for Formula 1. Although Tanner reports it had a wb of 2370 mm I doubt this, as this was still too long, and the 2320 mm of the F2 car had been found perfect. Therefore I'm quite sure that the car also had 2320 mm, and of course also the DeDion axle. This car was raced by Villoresi at the Swiss GP on 4 June.

Parallel to the chassis changes Lampredi finally won over Colombo with his concept of an atmospherical 4.5 litre engine instead of the 1.5 litre compressor unit. They took a tuned tipo 275 (3.3 litre) sports car engine and mounted it into one of the standard GP cars, the car then was tested by Ascari at the Belgian GP at Spa on 18 June, and Villoresi at the Albi GP 4 weeks later. Although the power was still far away from being competitive they found that the concept was promising, so the next step was to combine the new chassis with the new engine. This car was then raced by Villoresi at Geneva on 30 July, resulting in a horrible crash which killed 3 spectators and sent Villoresi to hospital for the rest of the season.

In that Geneva race Ascari drove a completely new GP / F1 car which combined all developments (2320 mm wheelbase, DeDion axle, big block engine) with also a new more modern bodywork. The engine was now enlarged to 4.1 litre, thus tipo 340. As said already, this was basically the 375 prototype although the full engine capacity not reached yet.

Traditionally the Italian GP, one of last season races, was the event the Italians introduced their GP cars for the next season. So it was no surprise that at Monza on 3 September Ferrari presented the new tipo 375 - now with full 4.5 litres - to media and public. 2 cars were entered for Ascari and Serafini (Villoresi still out of action). The tipo 340 was last used at the Penya Rhin GP on 29 October by Taruffi, for the 1951 season it was upgraded to full 375 specs.

Neither the 275 nor the 340 could be considered as separate models. Both 275's had been simply interim experimental cars, one with the old swing axle chassis, the other with the new DeDion rear end. Also the 340 was purely interim, because the final 375 engine was not available then.

Thanks for the great info. It is getting clearer now.

I am still finding some photos, I think one is 166 another is some Thinwall special... My question is if these cars on the photos raced F1? And about Thinwall specials, where/when their cars raced at?

http://img24.imagesh...95/88759498.jpg
http://img19.imagesh...eoldestteam.jpg

About the 166 car, in description was: Le Grand Prix de Genève; Geneva, July 30,1950. This is one of the Ferrari 166/F2 cars of the factory team. It is a 1949 125/F1 car, but fitted with a two-liter normally aspierated motor and new bodywork, similar to that of the larger 340 and 375/F1.

1949 125/F1??? That doesn´t make a sense to me...

Edited by dudi1, 14 July 2010 - 13:57.

[D-Type]

The Thinwall Specials were simply Ferraris purchased by Vandervall and painted green with "Thinwall Special" or "Thin Wall Special" painted on the bonnet. At any one time Vandervall only had one car. Vandervall never ran a 166
From memory (I'll check tonight) the Thinwall specials were successively a short chassis 125, a long chassis 125, a long chassis 125 with a 375 engine, an Indianapolis-type 375.
As time went on, Vandervall progressively modified the final car they owned as they continued to run it in British Formule Libre races until 1955.

[dudi1]

The Thinwall Specials were simply Ferraris purchased by Vandervall and painted green with "Thinwall Special" or "Thin Wall Special" painted on the bonnet. At any one time Vandervall only had one car. Vandervall never ran a 166
From memory (I'll check tonight) the Thinwall specials were successively a short chassis 125, a long chassis 125, a long chassis 125 with a 375 engine, an Indianapolis-type 375.
As time went on, Vandervall progressively modified the final car they owned as they continued to run it in British Formule Libre races until 1955.

so that might be 375:

http://img19.imagesh...eoldestteam.jpg

Edited by dudi1, 14 July 2010 - 19:30.

[Michael Müller]

This is a tipo 166 F2/50, to be exact Serafini's car at the Prix de Geneve on 30 July 1950, F2 support race same day as the Grand Prix des Nations (the race where Villoresi had his horror crash). Ascari's car in the main event, the tipo 340, also had race number 40, and as both cars differ only on details photos very often are mixed up. So this is one of the rare photos describing the car correctly as tipo 166.

It is a 1949 125/F1 car, but fitted with a two-liter normally aspirated motor

Not correct the car was specifically built as F2 in early 1950. See one of my earlier postings above.

Why should a F2 car be raced in F1 events? Well, it was. The 166 F2/50 was raced by Ascari at the Pau GP (10.4.50), by Sommer at the Swiss GP (4.6.50), at the GP Bari (9.7.50) by Ascari and Villoresi, and at the Dutch GP (23.7.50) by Ascari.

Edited by Michael Müller, 14 July 2010 - 19:49.

[Michael Müller]

This is the Thinwall Special #2 at the International Trophy Silverstone (26 Aug 1950). The car was just delivered from Maranello by truck, and Ascari was asked to drive it in the race. This was the ex-works car 125-C-02 which was not needed anymore because of the new 340/375 model. However, in order to get Vandervell believe (once more) he gets a new car they took the bodywork of the one-off Bremgarten experimental car to disguise it.

As we know, the TWS #2 was a similar desaster as its predecessor.
The car was retired at Silverstone with the engine making some very unhealthy sounds. After tearing down the engine, Vandervell was livid. The bearings - the bearings! - had been the cause of the ugly noises because they had been out of alignment. And the crank appeared to have never been nitrated, and the crankshaft also had foreign matter embedded in it, the pistons… well, you get the idea. Vandervell was not very happy with what he had spent a considerable amount of money on and let Giberti, the current racing director at the Scuderia, know exactly how he felt. Enzo Ferrari was not used to have customers give him what for and then not only provide a detailed technical analysis of the faults, but pictures as well! It was clear to Ferrari that this was not someone easily brushed aside. In the end, it was agreed that the chassis would be returned to the factory, fitted with a 4.5-litre V12 and the new DeDion axle as well, and returned to the Vandervell team.

[D-Type]

so that might be 375:

http://img19.imagesh...eoldestteam.jpg

I think that is the 1950 car as driven by Ascari in the 1950 International Trophy. It matches a photo identified as such in Ed McDonough's Vanwall book.


To summarise the Thinwalls based on an old article by a well-known TNF member in a magazine edited by another.

Thinwall #1 - a short wheelbase, single stage supercharged 1.5 litre with swing axle rear suspension and a forward-mounted gearboxin unit with the engine. Ran once at the 1949 British GP

Thinwall #2 - a long wheelbase, 2-stage supercharged 1.5 litre with swing axle rear suspension and a forward-mounted gearboxin unit with the engine, chassis 125-C-02.

Thin Wall #3 - Thinwall #2 totally rebuilt at Ferrari with a single plug 4.5 litre engine, rear mounted transaxle gearbox and de Dion rear suspension. Raced 8 times in 1951-52 including beating the Alfa Romeos in the 1951 International Trophy in a downpour.

Thin Wall #4 - a longer wheelbase Indianapolis-type twin plug 4.5 litre with rear mounted transaxle gearbox and de Dion rear suspension, chassis 010-375. Fifteen appearances in 1952-54.

I think I've got the change from Thinwall to Thin Wall correct

Edit: I typed this without seeing Michael's posting - fortunately the two postings say the same.

Edited by D-Type, 03 February 2011 - 23:18.

[dudi1]

Why should a F2 car be raced in F1 events? Well, it was. The 166 F2/50 was raced by Ascari at the Pau GP (10.4.50), by Sommer at the Swiss GP (4.6.50), at the GP Bari (9.7.50) by Ascari and Villoresi, and at the Dutch GP (23.7.50) by Ascari.

I think just Swiss GP is an F1 event from the ones mentioned above, or am I wrong?

photo 1
photo 2

I started to recreating the car in 3D. It is the one I am pretty sure how it looked from those two photos:




Next thing is that I can´t find many resources of Biondetti´s Ferrari (166S, some sites refer it as 166SC or 166T, even 166I what is strange), just one very low resolution scan. Have you got any, or maybe just a single photo, showing a close view on the car to be able to guess its dimension from it?

EDIT:

I got that photo of Biondetti´s engine...
http://img686.images...ondettitia.jpg/

Then I found that car photo few days ago reminding me the biondetti special:
http://img180.images...aguarbiond.jpg/

I just think that this car also has something in common with Biondettis Ferrari, some bodywork, but it is definitely a two seater:
http://img713.images...02cbesanac.jpg/

Edited by dudi1, 14 July 2010 - 20:35.

[Michael Müller]

I think just Swiss GP is an F1 event from the ones mentioned above, or am I wrong?

Completely! In 1950 there had been 23 F1 races in Europe, of which only 6 - incl. Switzerland - counted for the driver's world championship.

[Michael Müller]

Next thing is that I can´t find many resources of Biondetti´s Ferrari (166S, some sites refer it as 166SC or 166T, even 166I what is strange), just one very low resolution scan. Have you got any, or maybe just a single photo, showing a close view on the car to be able to guess its dimension from it?

As said already in an earlier post Biondetti's Special was NO Ferrari! The chassis was a mix of Maserati and specially made parts by Biondetti (meaning his workshop) himself, and the engine a Jaguar XK unit. Only the bodywork was from a Ferrari, the 166 Inter Spyder Corsa #002C of the Besana brothers. This car was converted to a roadgoing roadster then and the bodywork was obsolete.

Then I found that car photo few days ago reminding me the biondetti special:
http://img180.images...aguarbiond.jpg/

I just think that this car also has something in common with Biondettis Ferrari, some bodywork, but it is definitely a two seater:
http://img713.images...02cbesanac.jpg/

That's the other Besana Ferrari, #004C, a sister car to #002C. Of course also the Biondetti Special was a 2-seater.
I have some photos, but don't post them here in connection with the copyright rules.

[D-Type]

If you search the forum, say for "Biondetti" plus "Ferrari" plus "Jaguar", you will uncover most of the story of this car, including some photos and links.

[dudi1]

If you search the forum, say for "Biondetti" plus "Ferrari" plus "Jaguar", you will uncover most of the story of this car, including some photos and links.

Yes you are right D-Type, please don´t be mad.

I am now looking hardly for some drawing of any Ferrari 125 Type car. It can be 4 view or 3d view drawing, any help appreciated.

[Manel Baró]

Further to my post # 28, the three 125GP sister cars entered by the SF a the 1948 Penya Rhin were driven by J.Gonzalez Pola, N. Farina and P. Bira (race nos 58, 52 and 14 respect.. They DNF. Apparently chassis nos were 02C, 04C and 06C respect. Can any of you expert readers confirm? Many tks!

[Michael Müller]

Race numbers and chassis numbers are correct as such, but I do not know which to which.

[dudi1]

Race numbers and chassis numbers are correct as such, but I do not know which to which.

Please check me this: http://www.oldracing....php?RaceID=I50

2 Alberto Ascari Ferrari 375/50 ['1'] - Ferrari V12†
#48 Scuderia Ferrar

R Alberto Ascari Ferrari 375/50 ['2'] - Ferrari V12†
#16 Scuderia Ferrari

Two different chassis and two different numbered cars in one race? It must be wrong

[D-Type]

Read it carefully. Ascari started in #16 and retired. He then took over Serafini's car, which finished second..

[Allen Brown]

I'm trying to come up with a better to show shared drives. I need it for sports car results (coming soon!) so it will be done soon.

Bear in mind that any chassis number in quotes, such as '1', is an invented number to help distinguish the cars and is not an official Ferrari designation.

[D-Type]

I'm trying to come up with a better to show shared drives. I need it for sports car results (coming soon!) so it will be done soon.

Bear in mind that any chassis number in quotes, such as '1', is an invented number to help distinguish the cars and is not an official Ferrari designation.

Allen,
I appreciate you are governed by the software limitations. Is it possible to
(a) to NOT show a number in the place column for the second driver. The gap would make it stand out more
(b) for the first driver show the time and for the second say "Shared drive" or "Shared with ***" or "Took over from ***"

So in this case you would have something like this, if you can assume the columns are correctly formatted
1 Serafini_Ferrari__2hr 52min
__Ascari__Ferrari__Took over from Serafini

[David McKinney]

This has all been gone through before, Duncan
I agree it's confusing, but it's all linked to databases
Doing it your way, an Ascari search would not show him finishing second

[Allen Brown]

You are both right. It needs to be held in such a way that a search for Ascari and a search for Serafini both show them finishing second in 2hr 52min but a search for the car should only show it finishing second once, not twice.

This is not beyond the wit of man, not even this man, but because my site started out with post-1966 F1 and Tasman and F5000 and Can-Am II and post-1971 Indy racing, none of which see shared drives except in very exceptional circumstances, I did not design it to deal with them. What I need to do now is redesign my database, force all the data (8,000 races, 78,000 results) into that new shape and modify all of the pages that display results. That is a considerable piece of work and I simply haven't got to it yet. But I will. Soon.

[Allen Brown]

Dudi1, I think you may not realise that this information simply isn't known in a lot of cases.

The only way Michael Müller can speak with such authority on Ferraris of this period is that he has bought and acquired dozens, maybe hundreds, of photographs showing the cars at different races and has carefully studied these looking for the tiny differences that distinguish one car from another. Some people in historic racing believe that chassis numbers were printed on entry lists and the only reason OldRacingCars.com has this information is that it has simply read it off the entry list. This is not so. The reason we can publish chassis numbers and ownership histories, whether it be 1984 Formula Atlantic Ralts or 1948 Formula One Maseratis, is because we have read numerous race reports resolving discrepancies as best we can, located production data, phoned up previous owners, studied photographs, examined surviving cars and spent many,many hours seeking the truth. These are primary sources. We have not simply googled stuff.

This thread begins with your comment "I am really disappointed that I can't find a normal source that I can trust. I think on every different site there are different informations and different photos." May I apologise to you with as much irony as I can muster for not having provided the perfect free resource to you but you need to be made aware that the total sum of human knowledge cannot be found via google. Some of it involves opening an old-fashioned thing called a book or, better still, a primary source. Books cost money because that's how the time taken to create them is financed. Photographs cost money - anywhere between £6 and £50 depending on the photographic library and the quality of the image - and there is a limit to what is ever likely to be made available for free online.

And one last thing. When browsing those websites that other people have gone to such effort to create, look out for the word "copyright". It was, for example, very clearly displayed on the web page from which you took the image of a Cooper T53 that you posted on TNF last October. Had you asked my permission to use it in this way, I would have agreed. But you didn't even bother to ask. If you expect other people's help, learn to respect their work.

[Michael Müller]

...that he has bought and acquired dozens, maybe hundreds, of photographs showing the cars at different races and has carefully studied these looking for the tiny differences that distinguish one car from another.

Complete archive is abt. 1400 (only early Ferraris). However, most of them scans from publications like books, magazines, period newspapers etc.
I fully agree with Allen, serious research cannot be done by "Google". It is still based on oldfashioned printwork, preferably from period.

[Writer2]

I have become fascinated with these early Ferrari F1/F2 cars from 1948-52, including the "old" F1 375s sold to Indianapolis team owners for 1952.

 

I have constructed a database, using information given on the many sites available, thank you Allen Brown in particular.  I became very interested in particular, about the crash on 30th July at Geneva in 1950 that happened to poor Luigi Villoresi, who was lucky to survive. Three spectators were sadly killed and others injured.

 

I note that Michael Muller, who knows a lot about these cars, thinks that Villoresi's car was a "special" EX car, with a 275 engine, that was later on rebuilt as GP3-50.  Now I wonder about that, as, working backwards from the "sold" cars, we have, by July 1950 at the factory, only the car that Ascari drove at Geneva, (125-C-03/4 depending on who you ask), and Villoresi's crashed "EX".  

 

1948 built 02C was sold in 1950, 04C in 1949, as was 06C. 1949 built 08C and 12C were the 1949 Works cars, (Peter Whitehead bought 10C), before the LWB 125-C-01 and -02. Both 08C and 12C were sold by mid 1950. 125-C-02 was sold to Anthony Vandervell, to become the Thin Wall Special number 2, racing for the first time on 26th August, 1950. Then sent back to Ferrari, with a list of complaints, and being returned, with a 375 engine installed, in May, 1951.  This would have allowed time for the car to be re-engined with its 340 engine again, raced by the factory in Spain on 30th October 1950 by Taruffi, and then re-engined with a 375 and sent back to Vandervell.  It's possible.  125-C-01 was sold to Peter Whitehead as private sale number 0114 but not until late 1950, beginning racing with him in April, 1951, after being repaired from it's Geneva crash,(perhaps?) and re-engined with a 125 single stage supercharged engine. 

 

So what of the third purpose built F2 car, GP50-3?  Perhaps it started life as this.  I hope someone can enlighten me further/blow holes in this argument. I did wrote to Ferrari Classische, in Italian about this but have received no answer....