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1958 TT John Hartle


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#1 Paul Collins

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Posted 07 July 2010 - 23:34

Does anyone have, or know where i can find, a picture which I have seen somewhere in the past (but not sure where) of John Hartle standing at the side of the road looking at his MV blazing in the gutter during the senior TT in 1958?

The bike caught fire as he came out of Governers Bridge and he pulled up next to Ashfield House and hopped off quickly leaving the bike against the kerb, i've seen a sequence of shots somewhere in the past but cant remember exactly where.

Any help appreciated
Thanks

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#2 pennyrobinson6

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Posted 08 July 2010 - 09:53

Sorry I can't help with that particular picture however I am looking into my dad, Roy Robinson's racing life and while doing so came across a picture of him with relaxing in the paddock with John Hartle and his wife Shelagh. Nobby Clark and Jake Alloport are also in the picture. I am not sure where is was taken but it came from a Motor Cycle News Extra published in the spring of 1968 called Grand Prix.

Sorry this is not what you are actually looking for however if you have any information relating to Roy Robinson or have know of anyone who migh I would really appreciate it if you could let me know

Good luck with your search

Penny

#3 Russell Burrows

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 18:45

Does anyone have, or know where i can find, a picture which I have seen somewhere in the past (but not sure where) of John Hartle standing at the side of the road looking at his MV blazing in the gutter during the senior TT in 1958?

The bike caught fire as he came out of Governers Bridge and he pulled up next to Ashfield House and hopped off quickly leaving the bike against the kerb, i've seen a sequence of shots somewhere in the past but cant remember exactly where.

Any help appreciated
Thanks


Hi Paul and welcome. I know the shots you mean and I've sighted them not that long ago in in an old mag. I've looked today but now can't lay my hand on it... Have you tried the Morton's site?


#4 Richard Wood

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 19:13

Does anyone have, or know where i can find, a picture which I have seen somewhere in the past (but not sure where) of John Hartle standing at the side of the road looking at his MV blazing in the gutter during the senior TT in 1958?

The bike caught fire as he came out of Governers Bridge and he pulled up next to Ashfield House and hopped off quickly leaving the bike against the kerb, i've seen a sequence of shots somewhere in the past but cant remember exactly where.

Any help appreciated
Thanks

Hello Paul
Whilst I do not have a copy of the photograph myself I know the one you mean and remember it being published in a TT special published by Motor Cycle News a number of years ago.
Best regards
R

#5 Coupe Kawasaki

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 19:49

Sorry I can't help with that particular picture however I am looking into my dad, Roy Robinson's racing life and while doing so came across a picture of him with relaxing in the paddock with John Hartle and his wife Shelagh. Nobby Clark and Jake Alloport are also in the picture. I am not sure where is was taken but it came from a Motor Cycle News Extra published in the spring of 1968 called Grand Prix.

Sorry this is not what you are actually looking for however if you have any information relating to Roy Robinson or have know of anyone who migh I would really appreciate it if you could let me know

Good luck with your search

Penny



You might want this on a new thread Penny so everyone can see it, there must be some info out there for you somewhere. Nice of you to drop by, I'll be looking forward to seeing what we can uncover for you :)

#6 Paul Collins

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 12:08

Hello Paul
Whilst I do not have a copy of the photograph myself I know the one you mean and remember it being published in a TT special published by Motor Cycle News a number of years ago.
Best regards
R


Thanks Richard, I know there is a sequence in Peter Kneale's '90 years of TT magic' but the pic i'm looking for is probably the one you just mentioned, and I may have that TT special among my archives in the loft.

Loft ladder coming down now :)

I've also got Bill Snelling on the case over on the IOM he has a huge photo collection.

Paul

#7 Paul Collins

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Posted 14 July 2010 - 23:40

Had all my TT specials out and drawn a blank

.......And Russell thanks for the tip about Mortons, i'll have a look there, i've either seen it in a mag or a book, you've got me thinking now that its been published in a mag somewhere during the past few years.

#8 Paul Collins

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Posted 18 July 2010 - 23:09

Still struggling on this one. tried Mortons and also Bill Snelling has been through his archives at fotofinders without success athough he has some of the incident he doesnt have the one i'm looking for.

So if anyone has any ideas please let me know

#9 jaybee49

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Posted 19 July 2010 - 17:23

I know I have that pic somewhere in a book that I own. I looked at a few today without success, but I'll keep looking as its here somewhere.... :)

#10 Paul Collins

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Posted 19 July 2010 - 18:12

I know I have that pic somewhere in a book that I own. I looked at a few today without success, but I'll keep looking as its here somewhere.... :)


Thanks all help greatly appreciated, i have that same feeling as you, I think its appeared in a publication within the last 5 years, i've been through my loft twice now looking in programmes and MCN TT supplements, Classic Racer sprung to mind but nothing on Mortons website.

The reason for the interest by the way.............i've just agreed a lease on a property to which Hartle is standing in the driveway entrance in the photo, i'm taking the plunge and moving over to the IOM to finally live the 'I can watch the TT out of my lounge window' dream.

I thought it would make an interesting and quite spectacular picture for the lounge wall, that is if I ever find the damn thing!!

Fingers crossed :)



#11 Paul Collins

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 00:50

Does anyone have Classic Racer Mar / Apr, 2004 Issue No: 106 in their collection? i think that might be where the picture is, i've just tried to order a back copy but the site is playing up at the moment, the issue certainly contained an article on Hartle's career and might just contain the elusive pic.

#12 twotempi

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 01:09

Does anyone have Classic Racer Mar / Apr, 2004 Issue No: 106 in their collection? i think that might be where the picture is, i've just tried to order a back copy but the site is playing up at the moment, the issue certainly contained an article on Hartle's career and might just contain the elusive pic.


Being a rather sad kind of person I am sure that I have kept that copy. Will check tonight.

If it is in that issue I think that you should be able to get a copy of the image from Mortons Publishing

cheers

#13 fil2.8

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 08:09

Does anyone have, or know where i can find, a picture which I have seen somewhere in the past (but not sure where) of John Hartle standing at the side of the road looking at his MV blazing in the gutter during the senior TT in 1958?

The bike caught fire as he came out of Governers Bridge and he pulled up next to Ashfield House and hopped off quickly leaving the bike against the kerb, i've seen a sequence of shots somewhere in the past but cant remember exactly where.

Any help appreciated
Thanks



Hi Paul , I have a copy of Classic Racer # 106 and yes , on page 48 is the picture you require , if Mortons do not have the back issue , i'll gladly lend you my copy :up:

#14 Paul Collins

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 12:15

Hi Paul , I have a copy of Classic Racer # 106 and yes , on page 48 is the picture you require , if Mortons do not have the back issue , i'll gladly lend you my copy :up:


You've come up trumps guys!!

fil2.8 thank you for the confirmation and the effort of digging it out, its very much appreciated, i'll contact Mortons today, they are actually only a few miles from where I live (well until next week anyway) so i might nip over there, if I hit any snags i'll get back to you re your copy.

And thanks twotempi for your offer of help, hopefully you'll read this before you dive into the loft and start digging.

Finally thanks to everyone else who has been researching and digging through boxes for me, what a great community we have here :)

I look forward to hanging the picture in my new lounge which is less than 20 feet from where it all happened, it should certainly give the place a warm feeling on those cold Manx winter nights :)

Edited by Paul Collins, 22 July 2010 - 12:15.


#15 twotempi

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 03:27

Posted Image


This is the image of the MV BBQ in Issue 106 of Classic Racer mag.

No one seems to be in a hurry to put the fire out although it looks like there is some dry-powder stuff on the bike.

I can email you the original scan if you want.

Edited by twotempi, 23 July 2010 - 03:32.


#16 twotempi

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 03:38

Posted Image
By twotempi at 2010-07-22

#17 Paul Collins

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Posted 24 July 2010 - 17:40

Thanks twotempi, i've just had an email back from Malc Wheeler at Classic Racer, he's got his archive people on the case and it should be on its way next week.

Thanks again to yourself and others for looking through your collections for me.

Paul

#18 Continental Circus

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Posted 24 July 2010 - 18:00

Thanks twotempi, i've just had an email back from Malc Wheeler at Classic Racer, he's got his archive people on the case and it should be on its way next week.

Thanks again to yourself and others for looking through your collections for me.

Paul


I wish you all happiness in Mona's Isle, when John crashed there was a suggestion that the crash site should be called 'Hartles Hearth' but it never seem to happen.
Roy

#19 jaybee49

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 17:10

Actually, I have found another shot from totally behind the other one with JH not in view, but with two firemen trying to douse the fire, in a French Classic Mag. Guess its part of the same sequence. Any good? :wave:

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#20 fil2.8

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 17:16

Actually, I have found another shot from totally behind the other one with JH not in view, but with two firemen trying to douse the fire, in a French Classic Mag. Guess its part of the same sequence. Any good? :wave:



Let's have a butchers , then , Jim :rolleyes:


#21 jaybee49

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 17:23

Let's have a butchers , then , Jim :rolleyes:


There are copyright issues here Phil.... :rolleyes: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Okay, I'll crank up the gas operated pc and scan it from the mag and post it later.... :up: :rotfl:


#22 fil2.8

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 17:55

[quote name='jaybee49' date='Jul 25 2010, 18:23' post='4501037']
There are copyright issues here Phil.... :rolleyes: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:


Are there :rolleyes: :blush: ?? silly me , :o , of course , indeedy , don't want to upset anyone , do we ??? :lol: :lol: :rotfl:  ;)

#23 Paul Collins

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 19:51

I would be interested to see any others that you may have Jim, or anyone else who finds any, copyright issues permitting of course.

The Classic Racer shot is a good one and i'm ordering it next week, but it's still not the actual one I had in mind, i'm beginning to think I imagined the other one!

In the elusive shot he's standing against the stone wall in the driveway entrance where the wall curves in looking back at the bike which is pretty well alight by that time, if it ever surfaces i'll have it but if not the other shot will be the one i'll frame and hang.

I'm going back to the packing now, isnt it amazing how much cr*p you can collect in 20 years at the same address!! i've just loaded up one car which is going on the boat tonight, and the girlfriend is getting really ruthless now, she's just made me throw out all my flared trousers and other perfectly good shirts and shoes which are barely 30 years old with loads of wear left in them yet!!!



#24 jaybee49

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 20:15

Actually, the one posted so far was not the one I was thinking of either when you originally brought the subject up Paul. I guess there must be quite a few kicking around. I'll post the one I have found so far tomorrow.. :drunk: :up:

#25 Paul Collins

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Posted 25 July 2010 - 21:00

Actually, the one posted so far was not the one I was thinking of either when you originally brought the subject up Paul. I guess there must be quite a few kicking around. I'll post the one I have found so far tomorrow.. :drunk: :up:


Thanks Jim, by the way are you still in the GY area? if so i'm just up the road from you in Laceby.

Paul


#26 knickerbrook

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 12:47

This photo has been bugging me also Paul!
I have a magazine entitled "Sixty Years of Speed" - celebrating the Diamond Jubilee of the TT, which was published in 1967 by MCN. It too contains a version (but cropped to upright format) of the same picture posted here by brother twotempi. However, in my hazy memory, I too thought there was a picture of this scene taken from another angle, which shows John forlornly looking down at the crashed MV with his leather facemask unbuttoned and his face showing. Bearing in mind how the passage of time withers our brain cells, I am now thinking that we both might be mixing this up with a picture of John standing beside a crumpled MV that was not on fire, and from a totally different incident! Any thoughts on this theory!

#27 Rennmax

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 13:21

This photo has been bugging me also Paul!
I have a magazine entitled "Sixty Years of Speed" - celebrating the Diamond Jubilee of the TT, which was published in 1967 by MCN. It too contains a version (but cropped to upright format) of the same picture posted here by brother twotempi. However, in my hazy memory, I too thought there was a picture of this scene taken from another angle, which shows John forlornly looking down at the crashed MV with his leather facemask unbuttoned and his face showing. Bearing in mind how the passage of time withers our brain cells, I am now thinking that we both might be mixing this up with a picture of John standing beside a crumpled MV that was not on fire, and from a totally different incident! Any thoughts on this theory!


I think John crashed a 500/4 MV in the TT in 68, which he got along with a 350/3 for that occasion. I think there was a pic of the battered but not burnt bike in this forum some months/years ago, probably provided by Russ

Edited by Rennmax, 26 July 2010 - 13:25.


#28 Richard Wood

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 14:01

I think John crashed a 500/4 MV in the TT in 68, which he got along with a 350/3 for that occasion. I think there was a pic of the battered but not burnt bike in this forum some months/years ago, probably provided by Russ

You are quite correct in that John crashed in the '68 Senior but that was at Cronk-ny-Mona. There was a sequence of photos of that accident in Classic Racer some years ago. Earlier in the week he also stepped off the Production Triumph whilst leading at Windy Corner. Injuries sustained in that incident meant he was a non starter in the Junior race on the 350-3. He was bitterly dissappointed about that as he maintained the 350-3 to be the best bike he'd ever ridden and had great hopes for the race.
All the best
R

#29 GD66

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 14:02

He sure did, there was an extremely hairy shot of him about to go over the front of the 500 published that year, poor bugger didn't look like he had a chance...

#30 Paul Collins

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 14:42

He sure did, there was an extremely hairy shot of him about to go over the front of the 500 published that year, poor bugger didn't look like he had a chance...


Did he have a gearbox lock up or hit a false neutral at Cronk Ny Mona? I seem to think it was something gearbox related.

I thought I had seen some old cine footage of that crash, although I may be thinking of the photo sequence mentioned earlier, I seem to think he scattered a few spectators who were sitting on the grass near the road junction there and he ended up in the grass just before the start of the long stone wall which runs around Cronk Ny Mona.

#31 Richard Wood

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 15:07

Did he have a gearbox lock up or hit a false neutral at Cronk Ny Mona? I seem to think it was something gearbox related.

I thought I had seen some old cine footage of that crash, although I may be thinking of the photo sequence mentioned earlier, I seem to think he scattered a few spectators who were sitting on the grass near the road junction there and he ended up in the grass just before the start of the long stone wall which runs around Cronk Ny Mona.

He was having trouble with gear selection all the way round that first lap, kept finding neutrals. Hell of a prang and was lucky to be able to walk away.
R

#32 Paul Collins

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 23:35

Actually, the one posted so far was not the one I was thinking of either when you originally brought the subject up Paul. I guess there must be quite a few kicking around. I'll post the one I have found so far tomorrow.. :drunk: :up:


Any luck with this one Jim? i havent ordered the one from Classic Racer yet until i've explored all options to find the elusive one.

#33 serafini

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 22:00

Any luck with this one Jim? i havent ordered the one from Classic Racer yet until i've explored all options to find the elusive one.

I think that the shot you mean is the one with Hartle facing the camera, standing to the left of the bike ablaze.
It is used on page 25 of "The TT Experience" Three, by Gordon Kniveton and peter Kneale, published in Douglas in 1990. No copyright mentioned. It might be worth asking Alan Kelly at Mannin Collections.

#34 Paul Collins

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 22:59

I think that the shot you mean is the one with Hartle facing the camera, standing to the left of the bike ablaze.
It is used on page 25 of "The TT Experience" Three, by Gordon Kniveton and peter Kneale, published in Douglas in 1990. No copyright mentioned. It might be worth asking Alan Kelly at Mannin Collections.


Many thanks for the tip, that sounds like it could be the one, as it happens i'm good friends with both Alan & his brother Mike, i've already got them on the case and Mike was actually round to visit me today.

I'm convinced I saw it in one of Mike's many books when I was staying at his place but he's been through his collection and so far drawn a blank, but he does swap stuff around with Alan so maybe next stop is Peel and a dig through Alan's collection.

Thanks again

Edited by Paul Collins, 04 August 2010 - 23:01.


#35 Paul Collins

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 14:49

Checked that one out today, close but not the one, thanks anyway.

#36 serafini

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 23:30

Checked that one out today, close but not the one, thanks anyway.

Another close one which may be the one you are after is that in "Motor Cycle" page 763, 19 June 1958 - a very similar shot with Hartle to the left of the bike but his face is obscured by smoke. Mortons may be able to trace it.
And there are about 5 shots in Peter Kneale's paperback book, but my guess is that none of them are the one you want.

#37 Paul Collins

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 16:23

Thanks again, i've got the Peter Kneale sequence from his 90 years of TT book, it's not among them, and they are the only ones that Bill Snelling has in his collection.

I'll check out the 'motorcycle' one that you mention above

I have one more idea as to where I have seen it, my mate has a big collection of books which he hasnt unpacked since moving house last year, I reckon I saw it in one of those books at his old house.

In the picture i'm looking for Hartle is standing in the edge of the gateway to Ashield House with the stone wall behind him, looking back at the MV which is about 10 yards to his right burning in the gutter, I seem to think it was one of a sequence shown in the particular book.

I'm still open to any tips on where to look, and thanks for the assistance given up to now.

#38 jaybee49

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 17:33

My apologises for the delay Paul, as I have had a few problems with my desktop PC that the scanner is connected to. I am sure its not the photo you are looking for but here it is from the other side as promised. I am sure though that I have somewhere, the one you are looking for, and eventually I’ll come across it.

Jim


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#39 Paul Collins

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 18:19

Hi Jim, Not the elusive one but what a brilliant shot, just look at the helmets!!

Paul

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#40 SADBATCCM

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 20:21

My apologises for the delay Paul, as I have had a few problems with my desktop PC that the scanner is connected to. I am sure its not the photo you are looking for but here it is from the other side as promised. I am sure though that I have somewhere, the one you are looking for, and eventually I’ll come across it.

Jim


Posted Image

Trumpton!!! .... great picture Jim just wish we could tag them lol :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Edited by SADBATCCM, 07 August 2010 - 20:23.


#41 Paul Collins

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Posted 14 September 2010 - 22:27

Sorry to bump this up the forum again guys, I know its getting boring but i'm still hunting the elusive pic

I spoke to a mate during the Manx Grand Prix who thought he had it and kindly went on a mission into his loft but so far nothing.

Edited by Paul Collins, 14 September 2010 - 22:28.


#42 serafini

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 21:28

Sorry to bump this up the forum again guys, I know its getting boring but i'm still hunting the elusive pic

I spoke to a mate during the Manx Grand Prix who thought he had it and kindly went on a mission into his loft but so far nothing.

Try Mick Walker's Classic Italian Gallery page 175 - a good shot which may be the one you are after

#43 Paul Collins

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 22:20

Thanks for the tip, i'll chase it down and have a look.