22 replies to this topic

[Nev]

Just returned from a day spent searching through old book shops in Leominster (had to do something to pass the time while my better half went shopping ....)

I cameacross the following two documents hidden inside an old motoring book. I post them here in case they are of interest to fellow enthusiasts - they are NOT for sale!

Practice Sheet One
Practice Sheet Two

They are times for the first and second practice sessions held at the Daily Express Trophy Meeting at Silverstone on 3rd May 1958.

For me, it was interesting to find the names of Hawthorn and Sopwith amongst the Jaguar entries.

I wonder how the Morris Minor and Ford Zephyrs fared in the race?

Neville
XJ13 - Building the Legend

Edited by Nev, 11 July 2010 - 07:42.

[David McKinney]

For me, it was interesting to find the names of Hawthorn and Sopwith amongst the Jaguar entries. Jusging by their practice times, they must have mixed it in the race with the smaller-engined Lotuses of Salvadori, Hill and England?

Different races, Nev. One for touring cars, the other for small sportscars

[Nick Wa]

Don't think I was there but at the Grand Prix meeting Hawthorn and Sopwith put on a great show. Ford Zephyrs lots of body roll & tyre squeal but not much pace.

[Sharman]

Surprising how quick Alan Foster was. The Minor was quick considerung the company it was in and Hill's time says a lot for Speedwell, can't remember when Sprinzel went off on his own but his mods were obviously not as good .Looks as though Peter Bolton was in a "road" car as opposed to the factory modified stuff,

[D-Type]

Don't think I was there but at the Grand Prix meeting Hawthorn and Sopwith put on a great show. Ford Zephyrs lots of body roll & tyre squeal but not much pace.

I was at the Daily Express meeting and not at the GP and I do remember the dice between the two Jaguars. I don't think Hawthorn raced the Jaguar at the GP meeting.

Edited by D-Type, 10 July 2010 - 19:32.

[Nick Wa]

Help!
I can remember the Jaguar dice and Collins winning the GP and Hawthorn with his pint in the Dino. I can remember being on the fence about 100 yards after Stowe for both races. Having googled a few entry lists I must concluded my memories going and I must have been to both meetings!

[David McKinney]

I was at the Daily Express meeting and not at the GP and I do remember the dice between the two Jaguars. I don't think Hawthorn raced the Jaguar at the GP meeting.

No, it was W J Hansgen

[Sharman]

I got to thinking after my previous post on this subject and dredged up recollections of Works Magnettes run by Dick Jacobs. I dimly remember a "trick" Magnette with alloy panels which was eventually written off following an accident. Presumably that would be the car recorded in the practice sheet 2.
Wandering down these paths of memory I began to wonder about the practice of seam welding, I don't recall it ever being a normal procedure even as late the early seventies but when I did my last race car (Strada Abarth) it was the first thing addressed.
The Jaguars featured in this thread were not modified in this fashion so far as I am aware. I remember talking to Mike Salmon sometime in the 80s and he described the preparation of the 3.8s and I don't think seam welding was mentioned. So when did it start?

[RCH]

I seem to remember reading somewhere, perhaps even this very forum, that the preparation of the Coombs cars included judicious seam welding to stiffen the shell. This fact being considered somewhat hypocritical when Jaguar protested about the Galaxie roll cages being there to strengthen the shell.

[D-Type]

I have found the Autocar report of the meeting in Forgotten Racers. It looks as if Thursday practice didn't feature the wholetouring car entry.

Overall the finishing order was Hawthorn, Sopwith, Flockhart (Jaguars), Uren (Zephyr), Sears (Austin 105), Leston (Riley 1.5). The Zephyr etc 2 laps behind the Jaguars which suggests the other Jaguars failed to finish, certainoly the case with Baillie as his retirement ismentioned in the report.
2000-3000cc - Uren, Sears, Scott (Zephyr),
1500-2000cc - Jo Bonnier (Volvo), the only starter so some reports say he ran in the 3 litre class
1100-1500cc - Leston (Riley), Grace (Riley), Bridger (Borgward)
up to 1100cc - Hill (A35), Sparrowe (DKW), Gerard (A35)

The report mentions the Hawthorn/Sopwith and Uren/Sears dices, Foster (MG Magnette) overturning , and Brierly (Rapier) and Taylor (Riley) colliding.

And the Sports cars:
1100-1500cc - Hill (Lotus XV), marsh (Lotus XI I think), Young (Parson-Maserati)
up to 1100cc - Stacey, Hall, Campbell Jones (all Lotus X1)
Overall - Hill, Stacey, Hall, Campbell-Jones

Nick,
It was over 50 years ago and at that distance memories do run together.
The International Trophy was the only international meeting I went to in the 50's so it is etched in my memory (with inaccuracies so I need to check the details).

Collins won both the International Trophy and the GP which doesn't help your confusion. In May he drove the only F1 Ferrari while Hawthorn drove a Ferrari sports car with 3 litre Dino engine.
Hawthorn's pint act was at the GP

[Nev]

I have found the Autocar report of the meeting in Forgotten Racers. It looks as if Thursday practice didn't feature the wholetouring car entry.

Very interesting - thanks for posting the results.

I can't remember what I had for lunch yesterday so I continue to be impressed by those on this forum who can recall events of over 50 years ago.

Have I got this right ... Hawthorn raced in Touring Cars with his Jaguar and then in a Ferrari at a GP event held at the same meeting?

[D-Type]

Very interesting - thanks for posting the results.

I can't remember what I had for lunch yesterday so I continue to be impressed by those on this forum who can recall events of over 50 years ago.

Have I got this right ... Hawthorn raced in Touring Cars with his Jaguar and then in a Ferrari at a GP event held at the same meeting?

Not quite. At this meeting Collins drove the F1 Ferrari to win the 50 lap F1 race, while Hawthorn drove his Jaguar to win the 20-lap saloon car race and he drove the 3-litre Dino Ferrari sports car to 3rd place in the 25-lap sports car race behind the 3.8-litre Lister-Jaguars of Gregory and Scott Brown.

Looking through the records, it was not unusual in the fifties and early sixties for a driver to race in the British Grand Prix and in a supporting race, generally the sports car race.

[Eric Dunsdon]

I have found the Autocar report of the meeting in Forgotten Racers. It looks as if Thursday practice didn't feature the wholetouring car entry.

Overall the finishing order was Hawthorn, Sopwith, Flockhart (Jaguars), Uren (Zephyr), Sears (Austin 105), Leston (Riley 1.5). The Zephyr etc 2 laps behind the Jaguars which suggests the other Jaguars failed to finish, certainoly the case with Baillie as his retirement ismentioned in the report.
2000-3000cc - Uren, Sears, Scott (Zephyr),
1500-2000cc - Jo Bonnier (Volvo), the only starter so some reports say he ran in the 3 litre class
1100-1500cc - Leston (Riley), Grace (Riley), Bridger (Borgward)
up to 1100cc - Hill (A35), Sparrowe (DKW), Gerard (A35)

The report mentions the Hawthorn/Sopwith and Uren/Sears dices, Foster (MG Magnette) overturning , and Brierly (Rapier) and Taylor (Riley) colliding.

And the Sports cars:
1100-1500cc - Hill (Lotus XV), marsh (Lotus XI I think), Young (Parson-Maserati)
up to 1100cc - Stacey, Hall, Campbell Jones (all Lotus X1)
Overall - Hill, Stacey, Hall, Campbell-Jones

Nick,
It was over 50 years ago and at that distance memories do run together.
The International Trophy was the only international meeting I went to in the 50's so it is etched in my memory (with inaccuracies so I need to check the details).

Collins won both the International Trophy and the GP which doesn't help your confusion. In May he drove the only F1 Ferrari while Hawthorn drove a Ferrari sports car with 3 litre Dino engine.
Hawthorn's pint act was at the GP

I remember Foster's MG overturning at Becketts and the debris being swept up by Duncan Hamilton, while Tony Rolt held the car upright. Both were acting as observers that day. They also handed over the famous pint to Mike Hawthorn after the British Grand prix later in the year.

[Allan Lupton]

Hill's time says a lot for Speedwell, can't remember when Sprinzel went off on his own but his mods were obviously not as good

Maybe that's when Graham Hill actually added a bit of nitromethane to the fuel, as recounted in "Life at the Limit," although he wrote that it was done to a Mini at Brands years later.
He tells us he won his class in May 1958 and got a £200 cheque from BMC

Edited by Allan Lupton, 11 July 2010 - 16:35.

[Sharman]

Eric
From your comment it would appear that it was this race that saw the demise of the "trick" Magnette,I know that Foster won his class but he never had it his own way in later races, my source says that he bought Waller's car and used that for the rest of the season.
Allan
I can't remember details from Life at the Limit but GH was fastest by a suspicously large margin

Edited by Sharman, 11 July 2010 - 18:55.

[bradbury west]

Was that Cedric Brierley in the Rapier?
Unless they had o/d boxes the Zephyrs would have struggled with a 3 speed column shift
Jaguar once produced a magnesium, IIRC, bodied mkVII. Was it reg SUM 7?, from the little grey cells.
Roger Lund

[D-Type]

The Autocar report says "H. Brierley's Rapier"

Motor Sport says the the works Zephyrs of Scott, E Harrison and Riley had 3-speed Borg Warner automatic gearboxes but Uren's privately entered car with normal gearbox was faster.

Edited by D-Type, 11 July 2010 - 22:28.

[Sharman]

So not Cedric

[RCH]

So not Cedric

Harold Brierley wasn't it? I believe the Mk II big Fords were theoretically available with a 4-speed box with a floor lever, which was used in the rally cars. Or maybe it was 3 speed and overdrive? I remember my father turning down a Mk II Consul in favour of a Standard Ensign because the latter had "4 on the floor".

[Frank de Jong]

Nev, thanks for posting your findings - I will make good use of it by completing 1958 Daily Express on my website, which also might answer a few questions from this thread

Edited by Frank de Jong, 12 July 2010 - 09:53.

[Sharman]

Harold Brierley wasn't it? I believe the Mk II big Fords were theoretically available with a 4-speed box with a floor lever, which was used in the rally cars. Or maybe it was 3 speed and overdrive? I remember my father turning down a Mk II Consul in favour of a Standard Ensign because the latter had "4 on the floor".

...and I suppose by that stage he was beyond the need of a passion wagon. Ideal courting cars the Mk II Consuls with that vast bench front seat and handlebar gearchange

[Nev]

Nev, thanks for posting your findings - I will make good use of it by completing 1958 Daily Express on my website, which also might answer a few questions from this thread

A useful summary of the race - I particularly liked the paragraph that says, "After the Le Mans-type start, the race featured a battle royal between Hawthorn and Sopwith whilst behind there was much mayhem as the big Zephyrs bounced off each other, Foster rolled and Peter Taylor was caught by BBC cameras being hurled out of his Riley at Woodcote after clipping Bierley’s Rapier. Post race Sprinzel pleaded to allow racers to do up their seat belts , and do away with Le Mans starts"

I was definitely born too late - motorsport seems to have been much more interesting in the 1950s! It was for that reason I attempted to capture a little of the zeitgeist by racing a replica of the Hamilton/Rolt 1953 C-Type - driving to and from race meetings as was often the case in the 1950s.

[Bauble]

I have the programmes (2'- each) for both the International Trophy and the Grand Prix for 1958 if that helps anyone with entries!

Someone expressed suprise that drivers took part in several races at the same meeting back in the '50's. Stirling Moss drove in three races at the 1954 Grand Prix meeting, a Porsche in the 1500cc event a Maserati in the Grand Prix and a Cooper in the 500cc race. This was not uncommon for top men to take in several categories on the same day, indeed Alan Brown took in two other races on top of the GP

"When men were men and they raced in green"

Edited by Bauble, 12 July 2010 - 21:15.