552 replies to this topic

[Ali_G]

After seeing the Alonso - Kubica incident today, its clear to me that the drivers need a good lesson in clean and fair racing.

For about the last 10 years now, this idea of "closing off space" seems to generally accepted as good racing in F1. To me its not. Its bullshit and its nothing more than forcing your opponent off the track.

Even if you are ahead of your opponent, as long as the car behind you is some bit side by side with you, then you MUST give him space.


People on here are constantly complaiing about not seeing enough close racing in F1. We do get close racing, but a lot of it finishes after just one corner as a lot of the drivers these days like to just push their opponents off track by "closing off space" unfairly.

[alfa1]

Even if you are ahead of your opponent, as long as the car behind you is some bit side by side with you, then you MUST give him space.

I'll disagree.
You're effectively saying that if a driver behind can get as much as a front wing edge next to your rear wheel, you have to let them through to pass you.
This is because the driver being 'closed off' is on the outside, and thus getting a better run, a more open line onto the next straight, as opposed to your tighter compromised line.

The real answer is to get drivers to recognise that there are gaps that are going to close in the near future, so dont go into them.

[Ali_G]

I'll disagree.
You're effectively saying that if a driver behind can get as much as a front wing edge next to your rear wheel, you have to let them through to pass you.
This is because the driver being 'closed off' is on the outside, and thus getting a better run, a more open line onto the next straight, as opposed to your tighter compromised line.

The real answer is to get drivers to recognise that there are gaps that are going to close in the near future, so dont go into them.

Completely disagree with your logic.

This sort of racing was what existed in F1 right up to the late 80's. Watch some 1970s footage and you'll see this constantly.

Hell, even watch NASCAR races at road courses.

[Pampalini]

After seeing the Alonso - Kubica incident today, its clear to me that the drivers need a good lesson in clean and fair racing.

For about the last 10 years now, this idea of "closing off space" seems to generally accepted as good racing in F1. To me its not. Its bullshit and its nothing more than forcing your opponent off the track.

Even if you are ahead of your opponent, as long as the car behind you is some bit side by side with you, then you MUST give him space.


People on here are constantly complaiing about not seeing enough close racing in F1. We do get close racing, but a lot of it finishes after just one corner as a lot of the drivers these days like to just push their opponents off track by "closing off space" unfairly.

There is a different problem: they try to pass where it is impossible or they try it in the wrong moment. The defender has right to defend himself- why should he give space? It is ridiculous. A good pass can be made without the "help" of the defender. Please, try to learn how to overtake- and you won't have a problem with closed doors.

[Lights]

I completely agree with the thread starter.

It's the same thing I said in the penalty poll thread. Alonso was given no space to drive on, so what other options did he have besides cutting the track?

Same thing with Lewis and Kimi 2 years ago in Spa. Kimi just pushed Lewis offtrack, and Lewis got penalized. Doesn't make sense.

[Andrew Hope]

He had the option of hitting the brakes. Just to play Devil's Advocate.

[Gecko]

He had the option of hitting the brakes. Just to play Devil's Advocate.

Indeed, that's what was expected from him at that point, or at least going straight but letting Kubica through. Overtaking on the outside always carries the risk of being pushed out, so a driver needs to be prepared for that.

[raiseyourfistfor]

Fair doesn't mean anything when theres billions of $$ in play.

I don't think there is anything wrong in defending your place either. And nobody else did before Ferrari's golden boy screwed himself over again.

[alfa1]

Same thing with Lewis and Kimi 2 years ago in Spa. Kimi just pushed Lewis offtrack, and Lewis got penalized. Doesn't make sense.

I dont know why people keep bringing up the Spa incident.
Its not like Lewis left the road, overtook Kimi and then drove off into the distance (like Fred did today).

The only reason Lewis got a penalty at all was because of what happened 500 meters later at the next corner when Lewis overtook Kimi for a second time.

[Massacrator]

Indeed, that's what was expected from him at that point, or at least going straight but letting Kubica through. Overtaking on the outside always carries the risk of being pushed out, so a driver needs to be prepared for that.

How can he brake in a corner where they are tyre to tyre? do you want them to have a puncture?

Have you ever watched a F1 race?

[V8 Fireworks]

Up to the overtaker to get the car past cleanly IMO

1 foot in front of the rear wall - is not past. The whole car must be past.

If not past or not able to brake much better than the other car - brake early and tuck in behind.

1 move defending is allowed in F1 regardless of the lap.

[Kucki]

We wont ever see the kind of fights like Senna against Mansel or Villeneuve against Arnoux when drivers are allowed to force other drivers off the track.

Racing is much more fun when drivers have to go through several corners side by side like they used to.

Nowadays in F1 and in the last 10 years, it has become normal to force your opponent off the track when your slightly ahead of him. It kills the racing and it kills overtaking.

Lets go back to fair racing.

Alonso should not have been penalised today. Kubica should have let him space. They were exactly side by side.

Lewis should not have had to give back the position in Spa 2007 against Kimi. Kimi should have let him space. They were exactly side by side.

Lewis should not have been allowed to keep position after he forced Glock off the track in Monza. They were side by side.

And and and, there are so many examples of how forcing your opponent off the track kills the racing.

Edited by Kucki, 11 July 2010 - 14:36.

[V8 Fireworks]

How can he brake in a corner where they are tyre to tyre? do you want them to have a puncture?

A) See that Kubica has the inside line, and brake early to tuck in behind.

B) Brake on the limit, but note he has cut the chicane and ease out of the gas pedal for a bit on the exit of the corner to ensure no penalties.

[Atreiu]

Kubica did nothing wrong, he chose his line and took it. There was no unexpected swerving, blocking or chopping.
It just so happened that Alonso thought it was beter to overtake him off the track than to tuck behind a wait for another chance. Hitting the brakes is always an option.

Ferrari should immediately have instructed Alonso to give the place back. Alonso was obviously too involved with the heat of battle to do it.

The Stewards timing (or lack of) just made it all worse.

Edited by Atreiu, 11 July 2010 - 14:37.

[Monad]

After seeing the Alonso - Kubica incident today, its clear to me that the drivers need a good lesson in clean and fair racing.

For about the last 10 years now, this idea of "closing off space" seems to generally accepted as good racing in F1. To me its not. Its bullshit and its nothing more than forcing your opponent off the track.

Even if you are ahead of your opponent, as long as the car behind you is some bit side by side with you, then you MUST give him space.


People on here are constantly complaiing about not seeing enough close racing in F1. We do get close racing, but a lot of it finishes after just one corner as a lot of the drivers these days like to just push their opponents off track by "closing off space" unfairly.

You are wrong here my friend. It might have seemed like Kubica pushed Alonso but that's only if you never tried to race or take a corner like that. That corner was very tied and it just doesn't allow two cars to go threw side by side with out one giving way. Kubica gave no way and so did Alonso. The only problem was that Alonso was on the outside so he couldn't have made it.
It wasn't about Kubica forcing him to do anything it was about Alonso not putting his foot on the brake and cutting the chicane.
Simply you can't pass there like that and he should have brake the moment he saw how they arrived at the corner. All drivers can seem like they were pushed off the track if they don't back down in a tied corner where the other guy had the inside line. It just that most of them do back down.

Edited by Monad, 11 July 2010 - 14:40.

[primer]

Ali_G, standards of racing have changed. It is quite common and 'accepted' for the driver with the inside line to push the driver on the outside as much as they can, sometimes even off the track. It is for the driver on the outside line to lift/brake and then try again. This kind of racing starts from karting itself, I am not sure how you propose to change this. Not many drivers have a problem with this either, they might get pushed around when on the outside line but they love the fact that they can push another guy wide when they are on the inside, defending their place or completing an overtake.

Best get used to it.

[kensaundm31]

After seeing the Alonso - Kubica incident today, its clear to me that the drivers need a good lesson in clean and fair racing.

For about the last 10 years now, this idea of "closing off space" seems to generally accepted as good racing in F1. To me its not. Its bullshit and its nothing more than forcing your opponent off the track.

Even if you are ahead of your opponent, as long as the car behind you is some bit side by side with you, then you MUST give him space.


People on here are constantly complaiing about not seeing enough close racing in F1. We do get close racing, but a lot of it finishes after just one corner as a lot of the drivers these days like to just push their opponents off track by "closing off space" unfairly.

I disagree with you.

Part of overtaking involves doing it in a manner that precludes you being pushed off the track.

ie being 75% ahead if you are on the outside. or being at least level when you are on the inside.

If you try to overtake on the outside whilst only being 'nearly level, you are asking for trouble.

[HMV]

You are wrong here my friend. It might have seemed like Kubica pushed Alonso but that's only if you never tried to race or take a corner like that. That corner was very tied and it just doesn't allow two cars to go threw side by side with out one giving way. Kubica gave no way and so did Alonso. The only problem was that Alonso was on the outside so he couldn't have made it.
It wasn't about Kubica forcing him to do anything it was about Alonso not putting his foot on the brake and cutting the chicane.
Simply you can't pass there like that and he should have brake the moment he saw how they arrived at the corner. All driver can seem like they were pushed off the track if they don't back down in a tied corner where the other guy had the inside line. It just that most of them do back down.

+1

While I dislike chopping myself, this particular situation was not a force-another-driver-off-the-track case. It was Alonso's mistake in overcharging into the corner on the outside.

[Kucki]

It was Kubica who overcharged into the corner and couldnt hold his (inside) line

Its funny. Everybody cries for wanting to see overtaking moves, but at the same time they like seeing drivers forcing a car completely next to him off the road.

See Button against Hamilton in Turkey.

See Arnoux against Villeneuve.

Side by side fair and exciting racing.

Thats the kind of racing we want.

Edited by Kucki, 11 July 2010 - 14:42.

[Andrew Hope]

You don't wake up from a coma to suddenly find yourself being squeezed off the track in an F1 race. You put yourself there, you deal with whatever consequences come your way, and if you manage to pass around the outside, then good on you, but it's not up to the driver you're trying to pass to let you by or deviate from his racing line just because you wanted to kamikaze around the outside of a corner. This kind of bullshit thinking is anti-racing and the last thing we need to see. This isn't the Dukes of Hazzard, no one in F1 is crashing into someone to send them off the track and barrel rolling over a haystack and into a barn, these are the best drivers in the world, overtaking is not supposed to be easy and it is a skill that rewards the clever and courageous, and if we get into some gentlemanly 'you first' attitude about it then you might as well give the cars an Indycar style Push-to-Pass button, because that's the effect you're creating.

[Lights]

The only reason Lewis got a penalty at all was because of what happened 500 meters later at the next corner when Lewis overtook Kimi for a second time.

Oh really, what did Hamilton do wrong in Turn 1 then? I thought that was a fabulous move.

[V8 Fireworks]

Its funny. Everybody cries for wanting to see overtaking moves, but at the same time they like seeing drivers forcing a car completely next to him off the road.

More street tracks race then! A concrete wall is great incentive for giving the other car room.

If it is a white line and astroturf off course they will push the other car off.

[alfa1]

Oh really, what did Hamilton do wrong in Turn 1 then? I thought that was a fabulous move.

Yeah it was, but the powers that be decide that he hadnt waited long enough before trying to overtake again after what happened in the bus stop chicane.

If Lewis had, for whatever reason, NOT overtaken Kimi going into turn 1, then there would have been no penalty for passing offroad (then giving back again).

[Ali_G]

As Kucki has said, if you want to see the racing of old, this sort of stuff can't be tolerated.

These sort of moves basically eradicate side to side racing through multiple corners.

[Monad]

As Kucki has said, if you want to see the racing of old, this sort of stuff can't be tolerated.

These sort of moves basically eradicate side to side racing through multiple corners.

Oh!!!! For the love of God you and Kucki need to learn a little about driving before you play the racing fans.

Here is a drawing so you can get it because you are hopeless.



You see the drawing at the left. That's how it was. Kubica went like the blue line and not like the red line that it would be how you support he should have gone making Alonso going like the green line . But to you know why? I'll tell you why. Because unless you are driving with 15 miles per hour it's just IMPOSSIBLE to go like the red line because that's the laws of physics. DO YOU GET IT??
Alonso should have put his foot on the brake the moment he saw how they arrived at the corner.

Now look at the right drawing. If the corner isn't so tied and is more open corner then the cars can stay side by side like that. But in the corner today that was impossible unless one of the two braked to leave the other before the corner. It's stupid to expect Kubica who had the inside line to do such a thing.


DO YOU GET IT?

Edited by Monad, 11 July 2010 - 15:00.

[Kucki]

Do you get it that that Kubica went to hot into the corner, not able to hold his line (he had the inside line of the two cars)

If you believe that Kubica did the right thing, then we would NEVER EVER see a overtaking move. You can ALWAYS chop the other car off the track when its next to you. There is no skill in that.

The drawing on the right side shows how it can and should have happened. Why do you believe it was possible for Lewis and Button to go side by side through various corners. Because they left each other a little bit of room. Thats what Kubica should have done.

Edited by Kucki, 11 July 2010 - 15:48.

[OS X]

Wow, who needs computational fluid design and car telemetry when Paint will suffice?

With regards to the incident, Kubica was taking the optimal line and was clearly ahead of Fernando. He would have had to have scrubbed off an extra 20-30mph to leave Alonso any space plus concede the apex and the optimal line in the next corner to Señor . Kubica drove perfectly fine, he didn't go over the curb at the exit of the corner so it is up to Fred to pass him where there is sufficient space.

[Diablobb81]

How can people ask that in these situations the defending driver should yield is beyond me.

Kubica did nothing wrong.

Edited by Diablobb81, 11 July 2010 - 16:23.

[engel]

DO YOU GET IT?

In F1 there's one clean line and one clean line only. And as per regulations the guy ahead on the road (or sufficiently ahead to defend said clean line) has the right to stay on it. So it's not so much us not getting as you not getting it. Kubica (per regulations) doesn't have to change his line to give anybody room. That's how it is in F1. In NA racing it's different. Whether your prefer the NA version is your prerogative, to me it just looks ridiculous with nobody ever being able to defend anything.

[D.M.N.]

Lewis should not have had to give back the position in Spa 2007 against Kimi. Kimi should have let him space. They were exactly side by side.

I'm sorry, but I disagree. What you're basically saying is that drivers' can take shortcuts (it is a shortcut as he's not on the racing track and is clearly taking an advantage) to gain a position?

Imagine if someone chose not to turn left at the first bend at Canada and went straight on....

Edited by D.M.N., 11 July 2010 - 16:42.

[Lights]

I don't know where the 'defender has right to stay on the perfect line' rule comes from, but it's madness. That would mean the defender doesn't ever have to back out of anything, and can just drive into another driver if it fits his 'perfect line' and then blame the attacker for being there. What?

In battling, if there's any form of respect to one an other, you give each other space. That means the driver on the outside doesn't cut of the inside driver on the entry of the corner, and the driver on the inside doesn't cut of the outside driver at the exit. If either doesn't happen, there's a high chance of an accident, unless there's an option to go offtrack.

[P123]

I'm sorry, but I disagree. What you're basically saying is that drivers' can take shortcuts (it is a shortcut as he's not on the racing track and is clearly taking an advantage) to gain a position?

Imagine if someone chose not to turn left at the first bend at Canada and went straight on....

I think what he is saying is that drivers should give each other room. It has become the norm in F1 to defend by pushing a driver off track.

[weareracing]

Ali G, are you serious?
Kubica takes the racing line at racing speed and hits the apex.
Alonso in desperation to get by takes the outside line carrying too much speed.
Result?
No road left hence cuts the corner.
Take a look, plenty of replays available.
ANOTHER bad call by Alonso & Ferrari.
Reminds me of Q3 when Barrichello did an extra hot-lap and the following Alonso resorted to hand gestures
I can think of a few hand-gestures to sum up Alonso's performance to date this year
A very expensive Ferrari mistake paying Kimi NOT to drive and replacing him with "Teflonso"

[Vilenova]

After seeing the Alonso - Kubica incident today, its clear to me that the drivers need a good lesson in clean and fair racing.

For about the last 10 years now, this idea of "closing off space" seems to generally accepted as good racing in F1. To me its not. Its bullshit and its nothing more than forcing your opponent off the track.

Even if you are ahead of your opponent, as long as the car behind you is some bit side by side with you, then you MUST give him space.


People on here are constantly complaiing about not seeing enough close racing in F1. We do get close racing, but a lot of it finishes after just one corner as a lot of the drivers these days like to just push their opponents off track by "closing off space" unfairly.

No I disagree. If the driver behind is not alongside, the lead driver can put his car where he wants and it is up to the following driver to back off or go off.

The problem is that there is no real consequence for going off nowadays. Just endless runoffs so the drivers aren't worried about trying to bull their way through. If they go off, no biggie.

[engel]

Ali G, are you serious?

I believe his post (thread) are general, not specific to this incident. This incident just provided him with the opportunity to make this post. So ... you might want to cut him some slack, he's not about Alonso/Kubica, he's about racing in F1 in general.

[Ali_G]

Got me thinking of general situations where on the exiting of a corner, the person on the outside has to backoff as the person who has the inside line forces him wide by not giving space.

[SlipLtd]

We wont ever see the kind of fights like Senna against Mansel or Villeneuve against Arnoux when drivers are allowed to force other drivers off the track.

Racing is much more fun when drivers have to go through several corners side by side like they used to.

Nowadays in F1 and in the last 10 years, it has become normal to force your opponent off the track when your slightly ahead of him. It kills the racing and it kills overtaking.

Lets go back to fair racing.

[Tenmantaylor]

Completely agree. The driver who is on the outside or slightly behind should not have to lift or leave the track at the whim of the guy who thinks he 'has the line' therefore can do as he pleases whilst completely ignoring his competitor's presence. I believe Schumacher was the main exponent and beneficiary of this type of driving and made it acceptable for everyone else thereafter in the modern era. That said Alonso wasn't the innocent party today. Hard done by as he may have felt, he should've let 'friend' Kubica back past.

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 11 July 2010 - 20:01.

[Vitesse2]

Completely agree. The driver who is on the outside or slightly behind should not have to lift or leave the track at the whim of the guy who thinks he 'has the line' therefore can do as he pleases whilst completely ignoring his competitor's presence. I believe Schumacher was the main exponent and beneficiary of this type of driving and made it acceptable for everyone else thereafter in the modern era.

Schumacher was certainly the main beneficiary in recent years, but you need to look a little further back to find its originator.

[Lada Lover]

I say hold your ground and prepare for take-off.

[Tolyngee]

After seeing the Alonso - Kubica incident today, its clear to me that the drivers need a good lesson in clean and fair racing.

For about the last 10 years now, this idea of "closing off space" seems to generally accepted as good racing in F1. To me its not. Its bullshit and its nothing more than forcing your opponent off the track.

Even if you are ahead of your opponent, as long as the car behind you is some bit side by side with you, then you MUST give him space.


People on here are constantly complaiing about not seeing enough close racing in F1. We do get close racing, but a lot of it finishes after just one corner as a lot of the drivers these days like to just push their opponents off track by "closing off space" unfairly.

Ali, as a long-time F1 follower of ~25 years (although not so much of late), I'm of the thought this all started when Prost, a mild-mannered, typically fair and safe and etc etc etc driver and man, was allowed to take Senna out at the final chicane at Suzuka '89.

If "The Professor" can do this, get away with it and be handed the DC for it, and the driver attempting the pass can be threatened to not be allowed to compete the next year in the sport...

Well, the sport lost its credibility in this regard way back over a generation ago...

I personally thought the Senna/Prost rivalry was great for the sport at that time, but Suzuka '89 was the first time I witnessed either of them use a purposeful and calculated move to remove the other from the race... And Prost was allowed to get away with it, and that shouldn't have happened...

(I might argue though that Mansell taking Senna out at Hungary may also be part of this, as Ferrari knew Prost was coming to them the next year, and were perhaps helping his DC chances... the one-race ban for Mansell was well worth having a DC at the team the next season...)

In some ways this is why Monaco is nice... While there's no passing, there's also no cutting corners (although there's now some of this in the swimming pool complex now that the barriers aren't right at the corner apexes anymore...)

So, at Monaco Kubica wouldn't have done that to Alonso as it would have taken them both out... But then again, Alonso also wouldn't have tried the pass as it also would have taken them both out...

But at least Monaco removes the option of if people aren't going to give room on the track that just leaving the surface is an option...

[Tolyngee]

Watch some 1970s footage and you'll see this constantly.

The reason people raced carefully in the 70s and carelessly today though is safety.

Today two cars tangle and you're just left with two pissed drivers. Webber walked away from Valencia.

The 70s? Such crashes could easily mean loss of life or limb.

Either case, your career is instantly over.

I find it amazing that 'til the mid-80s or so, after that thin bodywork there was NOTHING before the driver's feet... and other body parts...

[wingwalker]

Bollocks. Kubica had the racing line and was fully entitled to keep it, if Alonso choose to cut across the track instead of lifting and putting the car right behind Kubica's gearbox it's his problem.

[Seanspeed]

Even if you are ahead of your opponent, as long as the car behind you is some bit side by side with you, then you MUST give him space.

Well there's a bit more to it than that.

You're right to an extent. But typically, you want to be about 3/4 alongside at or before the braking zone before you can really feel comfortable in having earned the right to some room. Less than that, and you should probably back off and concede the corner, not only for pure fairness, but also because you're sitting in a blind spot where the other driver is likely to turn in on you and take you out unknowingly.

Also, for real high speed corners(near flat-out or flat-out), this doesn't really apply. The guy on the racing line should get the corner. Going side-by-side in these corners will just result in contact 9 times out of 10.

I wish this sort of thing would be put into the sporting regs, rather than just have it be an unwritten code, cuz it means that drivers are free to break good etiquette and not actually break any rules, even if its dirty and unfair.

[pingu666]

im not so keen on it either tbh

[Seanspeed]

Bollocks. Kubica had the racing line and was fully entitled to keep it

I think the point here is that simply being on the racing line doesn't automatically entitle you to place your car wherever you want if there's somebody alongside you.

[wingwalker]

I think the point here is that simply being on the racing line doesn't automatically entitle you to place your car wherever you want if there's somebody alongside you.

And who is saying that? However it does entitle you to keep your line and that's exactly what Kubica did, I can't believe this is causing so much controversy.

[Hairpin]

I'll disagree.
You're effectively saying that if a driver behind can get as much as a front wing edge next to your rear wheel, you have to let them through to pass you.

I think he meant that is they get a front wing beside you, you need to leave them space to race you. Of course he is right, the racing sucks because the attitude of todays drivers sucks. The rules is clear - no "crowding" off track and "leave room" and all that. They should start using those rules. I remember being upset when Schumi forced Montoya off track after Tosa at Imola a thousand years ago. Now I hardly react no more, they all do it, all the time. And it sucks.

[Stormsky68]

The one move rule limits the amount of space a driver can 'close - off' and is more than sufficient.

I am really surprised how the Alonso episode has produced so many threads attempting to justify, and defend what he did.

[Seanspeed]

And who is saying that? However it does entitle you to keep your line and that's exactly what Kubica did, I can't believe this is causing so much controversy.

He didn't keep his line, though, he moved over on Alonso giving him no room. Keeping his line would have meant taking the entry to the corner on the outside, which would have almost no doubt meant Alonso sticking his pass.

Had Alonso tried to stay where he was with the amount of room Kubica gave him, it would have meant him running wheels off-track and not being able to control the car properly entering the next turn, and he'd probably have ran into Kubica.