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Barrichello/Schumacher Incident


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#651 AlainProstX

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 17:41

Wake up! This is a race!

There was a lots of similar moves in the past some years, and there was no penalties after those...

Barichello also wasn't penalized in Monaco when hi throw out his steering wheel to the track.


Barrichello threw out his steering wheel because he was in the middle of a fast section looking at the wrong direction. Have you ever come to the idea that Rubens is just a human who wants to came out as fast as possible of his car in that situation?



What we saw today was no race. It was a dirty move that could have ended in a very dangerous way. Holy $hit, some people have even posted in this thread, which show that Schumacher tried to drag Rubens into a concrete wall. When was the last time a driver pulled out such a manouver in a battle for 10th position?

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#652 Boing 2

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 17:41

You have a point. When schumacher defends hard and puts an ugly move, he is the devil himself. When Damon Hill puts JV off the track onto the grass in a hard defensive move its allright and he gets praised for his batlling attitude.


Are you talking about Hungary 97?

because theres a world of difference between this

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Posted Image

and this

Posted Image

Hill left Villeneuve a comfortable cars width and on a point with ample space to leave the track, Schumacher left Barrichello a few centimetres up against a concrete wall.



Edited by Boing 2, 01 August 2010 - 17:56.


#653 Birelman

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 17:43

Are you talking about Hungary 97?

because theres a world of difference between this

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Posted Image

and this

Posted Image

Hill left Villeneuve a comfortable cars width and on a point with ample space to leave the track, Schumacher left Barrichello a few centimetres up against a concrete wall.

LOL there's ore room in the little picture of Hill and Villenueve than in the Schumi Rubens one and it's so much closer, that's actually amazing.

#654 EVO2

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 17:43

There was nothing wrong with Michaels move today. It's the sort of move which gets you a gushing 15 minute special on Top Gear in a few years time. :lol:


Another brain dead Schumacher fan

What your flawed hero did this afternoon was Dangerous Unnecessary and Unsporting


Can't any of you accept the verdict of the four stewards and every expert who has been asked to comment on Schumacher's behaviour ?

You ought to take a look at the uncompromising opinion of Ex Steward and ex GPDA Chairman Alex Wurz.



#655 Mr j

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 17:43

How on earth can people still defend such a dirty move?

This could have ended in a very dangeroush crash. Rubens could be dead right know.

Someone needs to really punish Michael Schumacher. As a german Im ashamed from his comments to the press about this incident.

+10 places grid penalty is a joke. Just imagine someone like Chandhock oder Di Grassi pulling out such a move. Those guys would have been suspendet.

You're absolutely right. :up:

I wonder what the Mercedes team are thinking about keeping Schumacher in the team. He doesn't bring speed and he certainly doesn't bring any good PR for the team. Put Heidfeld in his seat before it's too late!

Edited by Mr j, 01 August 2010 - 17:45.


#656 Brandz07

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 17:44

There was nothing wrong with Michaels move today. It's the sort of move which gets you a gushing 15 minute special on Top Gear in a few years time. :lol:


dear god.

#657 Ricardo F1

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 17:45

I think the simple answer is that the stewards got this one very, very right.

#658 rolf123

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 17:45

:up: :up: :up:

I agree with you 100%.

A 3x f1 WDC, about 12 current and former F1 drivers, 3 current and former team owners and a slew of F1 commentators might have naively thought that it was a dangerous and outrageous piece of driving, but some random webmong from the autosport forums, who claims to have driven competitively, says that it's acceptable behaviour, so that's good enough for me.


Wow, here we go again. Yet another person who brings the thread back to this point of "perceived credibility".

We are all armchair pundits and fanboys. Just because you align yourself with a 3xWDC or someone else with a connection to F1 doesn't suddenly make your opinion matter any more. It makes you nothing more than a fanboy (or a "webmong" in your own words) who uses other people's opinions and lacks any ability to back them up or prove them in a logical manner. If anyone digs deeper, you simple refer them to Jackie "rent-a-quote" Stewart. Try thinking for yourself, it will do you some good.

Besides, Senna was a 3xWDC and did far worse. How does this factor into your idea of "perceived credibility". It shows that you are selective in whose opinions you quote.

Edited by rolf123, 01 August 2010 - 17:48.


#659 JackTorrance

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 17:45

DC, our expert bbc f1 pundit, in a showcase of dangerous driving:

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

wurz, our expert on safe driving:

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related



brake testing the safety car:



brundle, taking cars out:



no, these people really have a right to slam schumacher over drivers conduct.

Edited by JackTorrance, 01 August 2010 - 17:46.


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#660 Andy35

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 17:45

How the mighty have fallen, one year using dubious driving to win the World drivers championship, then a lot later using similar tactics to keep a lowly 10th position ... and failing.

Not really adding any extra glitter to his career at the moment is he? Sort of becoming more Mike Tyson than Mohammed Ali.

Andy

Edited by AndyW35, 01 August 2010 - 17:46.


#661 Boing 2

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 17:46

Most of this board probably weren't even alive to see Senna vs Prost.

Here's a reminder:



A few points.

1) "someone else did it first" is not a defence.

2) Senna was and still is routinely, widely and heavily critisised for that move

3) As dirty as it was, it still doesn't compare to what Schumacher did today.

Posted Image

Posted Image

Edited by Boing 2, 01 August 2010 - 17:58.


#662 Ricardo F1

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 17:46

Heck, Senna was a 3xWDC and did far worse. So your argument proves nothing.

Schumacher's a 7xWDC he's done far worse. That doesn't actually make what he did any better.


#663 paulogman

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 17:46

schumacher scored no points, and got a penalty for the next race which should keep him from scoring points in the next race. he still won't think twice about running a faster car into the wall though. rubens should have jinked harder to the right once he crossed the pit lane and knocked schumacher off the other side of the track...

#664 Dunder

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 17:47

This thread is a bit pointless. Posters boil down to 3 categories.

1. MS fans that see no wrong in him
2. MS haters that see no good in him
3. Sensible F1 fans that make an informed view on the facts before them.

I of course put myself in category 3. :-)


Replace the initials in 1. and 2. and this sums up 90+% of every thread on this forum.


#665 Andy35

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 17:48

A few points.

1) "someone else did it first" is not a defence.


Exactly, some people here are arguing two wrongs make a right. No they don't.

Andy

#666 man

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 17:49

When he qualifies so poorly anyway the 10 place penalty isn't very smart. The only way M Schumacher will learn is if somebody puts him in the wall so he is injured himself. He senses when driving a modern F1 car are so poor these days I really wouldn't feel confident going wheel to wheel with him when he is so out of control. Senna was ott in his younger days but during his latter years from 1991 onwards he was as clean as anybody. M Schumacher continues to drive in a psychotic manner year after year without care foe the safety of marshals fans or fellow drivers. Like Tyson he has become a pathetic sight and a sad joke.

#667 Jimisgod

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 17:49

First you hate 'em, then you respect 'em, then you kill 'em. The only thing Schumi has been doing quickly is starting controversies, that was as dirty a move as I have seen and far removed from the chops at the start, which are to be expected as everyone moves around.

#668 lokiman

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 17:50

Wow, here we go again. Yet another person who brings the thread back to this point of "perceived credibility".

We are all armchair pundits and fanboys. Just because you align yourself with a 3xWDC doesn't suddenly make your opinion matter any more.

Heck, Senna was a 3xWDC and did far worse. So your argument proves nothing.



Hey, relax. I'm agreeing with you!! As I said, I'll take a random webmong's opinion over that of numerous experts, drivers and commentators any day! Just because the so-called 'experts' disagree (as if they'd know anything!!!) with said webmong means nothing to me. I'm all about faith, man, and I like the cut of your jib.

#669 jimm

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 17:51

DC, our expert bbc f1 pundit, in a showcase of dangerous driving:

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

wurz, our expert on safe driving:

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related



brake testing the safety car:



brundle, taking cars out:




no, these people really have a right to slam schumacher over drivers conduct.


So you equate mistakes made in low grip and visablitly conditions of wet races ...most of which were at low speed to a purposeful move made at over 180mph next to the pit wall...

You really are delusional.

Edited by jimm, 01 August 2010 - 17:52.


#670 P123

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 17:51

schumacher scored no points, and got a penalty for the next race which should keep him from scoring points in the next race. he still won't think twice about running a faster car into the wall though. rubens should have jinked harder to the right once he crossed the pit lane and knocked schumacher off the other side of the track...


That would make him as bad as Schumacher.

#671 Disgrace

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 17:54

no, these people really have a right to slam schumacher over drivers conduct.


All of which mistakes in the wet conditions (some of the most wet in recent history) and the one dry one was the safety cars fault. Locked wheels.

Which directly compared to calculated, deliberate, dangerous driving in 100% visibility conditions.

Sensationalist stuff. Wow.

I'd say a forum ban for anyone defending Schumachers move. Pretty much proves they have no grasp on racing and will defend absolutely anything he does, without logic or reason, and I don't want such people around. (That's probably why I never will be a moderator, though).


:up: :lol:

3) As dirty as it was, it still doesn't compare to what Schumacher did today.


:up:

Put Heidfeld in his seat before it's too late!


It already is. Norbert Haug is deeper in this than any forum fanboy could possibly be. He's been sticking up for Schumacher since his poor China showing. His BBC interviews are cringeworthy. The facial expressions of him and Nick Fry tell us all we need to know. There's too much pride and ego at stake and neither will remove Schumacher. I gave him the benefit of the doubt then and even in Canada but this race is the turning point. He is past it. They know it too but they can't slag him off, because that's bad PR. Bit like Gerald Ratner announcing to the world that his jewellery was "total crap," at which point everyone realised it despite already knowing.

Edited by Disgrace, 01 August 2010 - 18:02.


#672 rolf123

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 17:55

On the contrary, because I'm accepting that had I done it, I would have erred, makes me honest, and not a rabid fanboy :wave:


Good point. It is not often that a human, let alone a driver, will admit to the errors of their ways.

#673 Birelman

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 17:56

A few points.

1) "someone else did it first" is not a defence.

2) Senna was and still is routinely, widely and heavily critisised for that move

3) As dirty as it was, it still doesn't compare to what Schumacher did today.

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Agree, agree.

Also, we must also think that these guys have personal lives of their own. (This is no attempt at defending Senna, BTW) Prost and Senna were gladiators at the height of their fight, there was so much at stake there it was almost worth it for one of them to die in that move, heck, they were both willing to risk that for that crown at that time. Counter that with what we saw today, 2 aging drivers, one nearing retirement, the other one quasi-retired with their whole lives ahead of them, and children fighting over 10th place in midfield cars. How sad would that have been had one of them got hurt, or even worst hurt someone else?

If nothing else, it was totally unnecessary :down:

#674 Mauseri

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 17:58

This thread is a bit pointless. Posters boil down to 3 categories.

1. MS fans that see no wrong in him
2. MS haters that see no good in him
3. Sensible F1 fans that make an informed view on the facts before them.

I of course put myself in category 3. :-)

And you will have to fight with group 1 or 2 depending how he is doing. And you will be accused of being in group 2 or 1 depending how he is doing :up:

Edited by Bianchimont, 01 August 2010 - 18:00.


#675 F.M.

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 17:59

Brawn: "It may have ended up in a dangerous way but that wasn't the intent I am sure by Michael. Michael was defending his position, trying to encourage Rubens to go around the outside. I don't think for a moment that he saw Rubens there and thought 'I will squeeze him'."

Barichello: "It was the very first time I saw the [television] image from the front and with it you can see his helmet is tucked to the side. So he is looking into my wheel - so he is at that point not choosing his line. He is choosing his line against my wheel"


#676 Brandz07

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 17:59

I say that Barrichello should be banned for what he did to Schumacher while overtaking.

FACTS

1)Schumacher had one legal move to cross and block, which he did. You can cross 1cm or 10 meters, its your say and its legal.

2)Barrichello saw that he had no room but he still tried to get past the pit lane entry line and grass and almost nearly took Schumacher out. Schumacher had to move to left to save himself.

3)Any other driver could have immediately moved to left and overtake Schumi making a clean and a very good overtaking move but Barrichello had some grudges against Schumi.

This is a sad day today. I say we all write a petition to FIA to heavily reprimand Barrichello and ban him for a couple of races so he does not do this again


just wow.

#677 rolf123

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:00

A few points.

1) "someone else did it first" is not a defence.

2) Senna was and still is routinely, widely and heavily critisised for that move

3) As dirty as it was, it still doesn't compare to what Schumacher did today.

Posted Image

Posted Image


Are those points addressed at me?

I posted the video because someone said "is this any worse than Senna v Prost".

I am not sure WHO you are talking to in this case? The other person? Nobody ever said it was a defence.

As for your 3rd point, highly arguable. The left to right speed of Senna was much faster, that's for sure.

#678 man

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:01

I wonder what the Rosberg family make of all this;)

Keke has never respected M Schumacher and his ethics... I bet his blood is boiling this evening.

#679 Birelman

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:02

Brawn: "It may have ended up in a dangerous way but that wasn't the intent I am sure by Michael. Michael was defending his position, trying to encourage Rubens to go around the outside. I don't think for a moment that he saw Rubens there and thought 'I will squeeze him'."

Barichello: "It was the very first time I saw the [television] image from the front and with it you can see his helmet is tucked to the side. So he is looking into my wheel - so he is at that point not choosing his line. He is choosing his line against my wheel"

Oh man, that's just sad because, Brawn is admiting it was dangerous, but then in his intent to defend Schumacher is actually making it worst trying to make it seem like Schumacher didn't know what he was doing :down:

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#680 rolf123

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:03

Hey, relax. I'm agreeing with you!! As I said, I'll take a random webmong's opinion over that of numerous experts, drivers and commentators any day! Just because the so-called 'experts' disagree (as if they'd know anything!!!) with said webmong means nothing to me. I'm all about faith, man, and I like the cut of your jib.


oops, sorry pal.

Yes, you're right. People seem to hold a lot of the "F1 circus" in high regard. In fact, it is a closed group that is difficult to get into and the people within it will do almost anything not to piss Bernie off. This is one reason why you don't hear journos asking the really hard questions.

If they had, they'd have been asking about the lack of overtaking due to dirty aero for each of the last 15 years at least.

There's a good book on this strange world ruled by Bernie called "The Pits" by Beverley Turner.

#681 jimm

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:03

Are those points addressed at me?

I posted the video because someone said "is this any worse than Senna v Prost".

I am not sure WHO you are talking to in this case? The other person? Nobody ever said it was a defence.

As for your 3rd point, highly arguable. The left to right speed of Senna was much faster, that's for sure.



WHo cares.....If I go shot someone in the head, am I any less guilty because someone else shot 2 or 3? Any less guilty because they got away with it?

Senna could have run off the whole field 30 yrs ago and it does not change the fact that MS is driving like a despirate dickhead who is clearly past it and was justifiably punished.

#682 Slowinfastout

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:04

Oh man, that's just sad because, Brawn is admiting it was dangerous, but then in his intent to defend Schumacher is actually making it worst trying to make it seem like Schumacher didn't know what he was doing :down:


Brawn isn't appealing the Stewards decision... the rest is just the usual blablabla BS

#683 jimm

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:04

oops, sorry pal.

Yes, you're right. People seem to hold a lot of the "F1 circus" in high regard. In fact, it is a closed group that is difficult to get into and the people within it will do almost anything not to piss Bernie off. This is one reason why you don't hear journos asking the really hard questions.

If they had, they'd have been asking about the lack of overtaking due to dirty aero for each of the last 15 years at least.

There's a good book on this strange world ruled by Bernie called "The Pits" by Beverley Turner.



You need to adjust your sarcasm meter

#684 rolf123

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:05

Barichello: "It was the very first time I saw the [television] image from the front and with it you can see his helmet is tucked to the side. So he is looking into my wheel - so he is at that point not choosing his line. He is choosing his line against my wheel"


Strange that Rubens doesn't approve of wheel to wheel action.

Maybe he needs to watch this. One of the top 10 overtakes ever:



#685 wj_gibson

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:06

Strange that Rubens doesn't approve of wheel to wheel action.

Maybe he needs to watch this. One of the top 10 overtakes ever:


In what way is that genuinely comparable to what we saw today?

#686 Boing 2

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:07

oops, sorry pal.

Yes, you're right. People seem to hold a lot of the "F1 circus" in high regard. In fact, it is a closed group that is difficult to get into and the people within it will do almost anything not to piss Bernie off. This is one reason why you don't hear journos asking the really hard questions.

If they had, they'd have been asking about the lack of overtaking due to dirty aero for each of the last 15 years at least.

There's a good book on this strange world ruled by Bernie called "The Pits" by Beverley Turner.



:rotfl:

your sarcasm perceptions right up there with your racing perception isn't it?

#687 mgs315

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:07

I think the saddest part is is that Michael could make his legacy so much greater by not getting into such moves and being a nicer guy on track just like he is being off track. After all, the reason a lot of people see him as being inferior to others even though we has 2 more WDCs than anyone ever in the history in the sport is that when under pressure he tends to play marginally (which as no bearing on whether you see the move as alright or not).

I used to support Michael (I saw him as the underdog in 93 and that start of 94 when I started watching and stuck with him til 06) but after watching his questionable moves over the years now I'm no longer a 10 year old fanboy, he's not exactly the nicest guy in the world, even if he was utterly brilliant at times. I thought that when he decided to return he'd be a little more fair but still brilliant. Alas it seems to be exactly the opposite. I don't think I can really say I'm a fan anymore.



#688 ivand911

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:07

I am sure this is not the last thread for such move. Hope who did it will get the same penalty.

#689 JackTorrance

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:08

So you equate mistakes made in low grip and visablitly conditions of wet races ...most of which were at low speed to a purposeful move made at over 180mph next to the pit wall...

You really are delusional.



I am trying to show that for al the outrage the above gents may have over shumi, their own driving standards werent as clear cut either. If they cant keep their cars under control and slam into other innocent cars, who are they to judge on the driving of Schumacher? Brake testing a safety car? Cutting corners and take out 5 cars? Causing arguably THE biggest starline crash since Monza 1978? I think they shouldbe a bit more humble and not point the finger to others.

#690 rolf123

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:09

In what way is that genuinely comparable to what we saw today?


I never said it was.

Re-read my original post and see the bold.

#691 Birelman

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:10

In what way is that genuinely comparable to what we saw today?

In that it's exactly the opposite? lol

#692 rolf123

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:10

:rotfl:

your sarcasm perceptions right up there with your racing perception isn't it?


Well, sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. If my radar for it does not work well....I won't lose any sleep over it.


#693 Disgrace

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:10

Strange that Rubens doesn't approve of wheel to wheel action.

Maybe he needs to watch this. One of the top 10 overtakes ever:


Of course the difference there is that Senna and Mansell are dishing exactly equal amounts of squeeze there with no walls anywhere near them, showing all the hallmarks of trust and respect to each other because both are at the top of their games, otherwise neither would do it.

Schumacher on the other hand is dishing 100% of the squeeze towards a wall at the same speed, showing a total lack of respect towards Barrichello and displaying that he cannot be trusted, thus providing the casual viewer evidence that he is "past it."

Edited by Disgrace, 01 August 2010 - 18:12.


#694 Tolyngee

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:11

This video in slow motion is very good to analize it and is tough to defend Schumacher:





I can`t complain that it was exciting as hell, but I think Schummy was on the edge of reason and skill.


That really looks like one long continuous motion by MS towards the right. Never jinked, and never went slower or faster towards the right.

After seeing that, I don't see what MS did wrong at all.

#695 Ashitank

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:11

You have a point. When schumacher defends hard and puts an ugly move, he is the devil himself. When Damon Hill puts JV off the track onto the grass in a hard defensive move its allright and he gets praised for his batlling attitude.



I dont know about Hill but Micheal ... puff hes been doing to this any one who try's to overtake him ... desperate grumpy old man , I wish he never came back .. now that he has in not the best car all his greatness is out of the window ..good for him at least we now are getting to see how good of a driver Micheal really is : ****

#696 Fortymark

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:13

Schumacher, what a f***ing idiot :mad:
HeĀ“done this shit his whole racing career :down:

#697 mgs315

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:17

I am sure this is not the last thread for such move. Hope who did it will get the same penalty.


When a vastly experienced driver gives less than 6 inches room (that's adding together the gap on both sides of the car) for an equally as experienced a driver between an overtake and a seemingly high chance of serious injury or even death at 300kph then I should hope so too. The size of the gap was so small that surely no human (even F1 drivers) could react if things went awry. Schumacher could not have judged that gap within that distance exactly, nor could Rubens have judged the gap as to not hit Michael or the wall without pure luck. I almost see Michael's move as being totally disrespectful towards Rubens' life. Surely it's not moral?

Edited by mgs315, 01 August 2010 - 18:18.


#698 JackTorrance

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:18

I dont know about Hill but Micheal ... puff hes been doing to this any one who try's to overtake him ... desperate grumpy old man , I wish he never came back .. now that he has in not the best car all his greatness is out of the window ..good for him at least we now are getting to see how good of a driver Micheal really is : ****


I disagree. He had some pretty good battles this year, at Melbourne with Alguersuari for instance. And while he had some nasty moments in his career, there are a host of other drivers who have been just as questionable. Vettel on Alonso for instance. Dc on Alesi Monaco 95. Montoya had some real angry drives. And what about Hamilton shoving Glock off the track at a speed close to 200 mph? It happens. It isnt something that only Schumacher has a patent on. You want to criticise him fine, but lets not make him the evil that some portray him to be.

#699 wingwalker

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:19

Nothing wrong with this move either:

http://www.youtube.c...=watch_response



Yeah really. People saying MSC move was fine should watch this video like 10 times in a row, come back, and apologize.

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#700 rm111

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:23

All hail the return of the schuey chop :clap: