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Barrichello/Schumacher Incident


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#701 Boing 2

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:26

I am trying to show that for al the outrage the above gents may have over shumi, their own driving standards werent as clear cut either. If they cant keep their cars under control and slam into other innocent cars, who are they to judge on the driving of Schumacher? Brake testing a safety car? Cutting corners and take out 5 cars? Causing arguably THE biggest starline crash since Monza 1978? I think they shouldbe a bit more humble and not point the finger to others.


no what you've done is get confused between driving ability and driving ethics.

you've drawn a short list of genuine accidents in treacherous conditions as justification for saying these men can't question schumachers ethics.

They are seperate issues, these guys aren't questioning his car control they are questioning his ethics after he deliberately risked a competitors life with dirty driving. They are completely correct and entitled to do so.

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#702 Ashitank

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:27

I disagree. He had some pretty good battles this year, at Melbourne with Alguersuari for instance. And while he had some nasty moments in his career, there are a host of other drivers who have been just as questionable. Vettel on Alonso for instance. Dc on Alesi Monaco 95. Montoya had some real angry drives. And what about Hamilton shoving Glock off the track at a speed close to 200 mph? It happens. It isnt something that only Schumacher has a patent on. You want to criticise him fine, but lets not make him the evil that some portray him to be.



I am sorry , I am not and won't paint Micheal as evil unless he keeps on doing things consistently compared to all of his competitor's that put himself into bad light , its up to Micheal , we fans appreciate good things as we see and understand them. :)

As for Lewis & Glock , Lewis car's mirrors were fogged because of the rain , if can't see in the mirror's , then shit happens  ;)

Edited by McLrnF1, 01 August 2010 - 18:32.


#703 fisssssi

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:28

I just can't get over what would have happened if a driver was exiting the pitlane at that moment...

Maybe it's time for a rule that drivers on the track can't cross the white line going into pitlane exit.

#704 Boing 2

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:29

Yeah really. People saying MSC move was fine should watch this video like 10 times in a row, come back, and apologize.


:up:

missed that link, yeah Schumachers been lucky as hell he didn't kill someone in his career.

#705 Boing 2

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:30

I just can't get over what would have happened if a driver was exiting the pitlane at that moment...

Maybe it's time for a rule that drivers on the track can't cross the white line going into pitlane exit.


all that would have done is penalise barrichello though who had no option but to cross the line.

#706 Birelman

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:31

I just can't get over what would have happened if a driver was exiting the pitlane at that moment...

Maybe it's time for a rule that drivers on the track can't cross the white line going into pitlane exit.

That would actually make sense.

#707 rolf123

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:31

When a vastly experienced driver gives less than 6 inches room (that's adding together the gap on both sides of the car) for an equally as experienced a driver between an overtake and a seemingly high chance of serious injury or even death at 300kph then I should hope so too. The size of the gap was so small that surely no human (even F1 drivers) could react if things went awry. Schumacher could not have judged that gap within that distance exactly, nor could Rubens have judged the gap as to not hit Michael or the wall without pure luck. I almost see Michael's move as being totally disrespectful towards Rubens' life. Surely it's not moral?


Maybe Schumi didn't realise how little space was between the white line and the wall. Are you not willing to give him the benefit of the doubt?

No driver, not even Schumi, can know exactly how much space there is around a car next to him, especially with the high cockpit sides.

#708 Birelman

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:32

all that would have done is penalise barrichello though who had no option but to cross the line.

No, I'm sure there could be a way of advocating that he was forced there.

#709 Birelman

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:34

Maybe Schumi didn't realise how little space was between the white line and the wall. Are you not willing to give him the benefit of the doubt?

No driver, not even Schumi, can know exactly how much space there is around a car next to him, especially with the high cockpit sides.

Hehe, I'm sure he knew it was pretty close though. I'd like a see an onboard of Schumacher's car

#710 jimm

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:35

Maybe Schumi didn't realise how little space was between the white line and the wall. Are you not willing to give him the benefit of the doubt?

No driver, not even Schumi, can know exactly how much space there is around a car next to him, especially with the high cockpit sides.



MOre BS from you...In MS's own statement, he says his line through the corner before the main straight had no more than a 5 cm varience and that he went past that and therefore was too slow coming out....Surely a driver who can place the car within that margin can tell distances fairly effectively.

#711 Yorkie

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:39

hmmm what IF shumi will not participate in spa and heidfeld will have his chance to impress? what about that penalty now?

He wouldnt dare let Heidfeld in his car

The FIA stewards are handing out penalties, reprimands like its a lotery. One day a rule is enforced, another its ignored.

When was it ignored?

#712 arknor

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:39

It's funny, isn't it, how so many people seem to dislike Michael because they have had run-ins with him while racing? It's almost as if Schumacher has a habit of pushing people off track for so many people to dislike him.

how come the one guy who raced against michael for the whole of their career never bitched then?

hakkinen is a true racer whilst all the other whiners are just cry babies who dont want to "RACE"

#713 Tarzaan

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:39

That really looks like one long continuous motion by MS towards the right. Never jinked, and never went slower or faster towards the right.

After seeing that, I don't see what MS did wrong at all.



Agree.

#714 Craven Morehead

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:41

Idiotcy..


this is soooo ironic :lol:

#715 jimm

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:41

I am trying to show that for al the outrage the above gents may have over shumi, their own driving standards werent as clear cut either. If they cant keep their cars under control and slam into other innocent cars, who are they to judge on the driving of Schumacher? Brake testing a safety car? Cutting corners and take out 5 cars? Causing arguably THE biggest starline crash since Monza 1978? I think they shouldbe a bit more humble and not point the finger to others.



They had accidents BY ACCIDENT...not by a purposeful move designed to make a guy cause a huge crash that would have probably caused severe injury or fatalities.

The fact is that MS could not stand the thought of Rubens passing him on merit at a place that is hard to pass while driving an inferior car. I was kind of hopeful that MS's return would spice things up a bit...it has for the wrong reasons. He is past it...he knows it, the team probably knows it. His dirty driving was controversal when he was doing it going for wins and WDC,...now for 10th while he is regularly being outpaced by a journyman teammate it is just desperate and pathetic.

#716 Birelman

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:43

Agree.

You guys don't seem to understand that it's not about a technical regulation that he might, or not have broken. It's about the danger involved in what he did. It's dangerous driving, which is, unfortunately for you, Schumacher, and his fans, in the eye of the beholder.

#717 jimm

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:43

how come the one guy who raced against michael for the whole of their career never bitched then?

hakkinen is a true racer whilst all the other whiners are just cry babies who dont want to "RACE"



I think if you look up the comments after Spa 2000, you will find some bitching about the move put on Mika. You can add MS to the cry baby catagory as he complained the comparitively clean move that JV put around the outside of the last corner at Portugal as dangerous.

#718 4L3X

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:44

I like Schumacher, but he was clearly way too late. You can squeeze someone on the inside if there is enough room to do that, but not past the white line into the wall. That was a reckless move and he should be glad he didn't get one race ban.

#719 Watkins74

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:45

The fact is, the fuss is because it's Schumacher.

Brundle's excuse for Senna doing the same was 'Senna told us before he was going to do it'. So that makes it ok? Haha, utter tosh. Any incident involving Schumacher is x10.

I agree.

Vettel did the same at the start last week. What was his penalty again?

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#720 jimm

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:45

You guys don't seem to understand that it's not about a technical regulation that he might, or not have broken. It's about the danger involved in what he did. It's dangerous driving, which is, unfortunately for you, Schumacher, and his fans, in the eye of the beholder.



Reminds me of a quote "Adversity does not build character, it reveals it"....the adversity this year has revealed much about MS and his fans.

#721 Birelman

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:46

Reminds me of a quote "Adversity does not build character, it reveals it"....the adversity this year has revealed much about MS and his fans.

:up:

#722 wj_gibson

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:48

how come the one guy who raced against michael for the whole of their career never bitched then?

hakkinen is a true racer whilst all the other whiners are just cry babies who dont want to "RACE"


To be fair, Hakkinen never bitched publicly about that move, but he made it very clear to Schumacher in parc ferme immediately afterwards exactly what he thought of it.



#723 Rurouni

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:51

all that would have done is penalise barrichello though who had no option but to cross the line.

I do think that Barrichello should shoulder some of the blame on this incident. The moment he know that he would cross the white line he can choose to back off but he didn't. So he choose to be in a dangerous position. Basically, unlike your opinion, I do think that he got options... back off or cross the line.

The biggest problem if Barrichello did choose to back off is that the stewards probably wouldn't give Schumacher any real punishment since the dangerous situation wouldn't happen.
That is why my view on Kubica/Alonso incident at silverstone was (and still is) that Alonso should give his position back AND Kubica should be given a penalty for squeezing Alonso.
Stewards and all the official involved need to be a lot more consistent.

Again, I must stress that I don't like what Schumacher doing, but I also don't like the fact that Barrichello came up purely as a victim in this incident.

#724 Watkins74

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:53

Another Schumacher chop.
He's infamous for it.

Actually it is the Senna chop, ask Prost. Schumacher learned it from him.

Edited by Watkins74, 01 August 2010 - 18:54.


#725 wewantourdarbyback

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:53

I do think that Barrichello should shoulder some of the blame on this incident. The moment he know that he would cross the white line he can choose to back off but he didn't. So he choose to be in a dangerous position. Basically, unlike your opinion, I do think that he got options... back off or cross the line.


Right... He was all the way alongside Michael before they got there, why should he back down when clearly on the way through rather than being the guy which 9/10ths of the track to play with.

And before you say anything, there was a big gap for Rubens to go in when he entered it, he then proceeded to move as far as he could to avoid the accident that Schumacher seemingly wanted.

#726 jimm

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:53

I do think that Barrichello should shoulder some of the blame on this incident. The moment he know that he would cross the white line he can choose to back off but he didn't. So he choose to be in a dangerous position. Basically, unlike your opinion, I do think that he got options... back off or cross the line.

The biggest problem if Barrichello did choose to back off is that the stewards probably wouldn't give Schumacher any real punishment since the dangerous situation wouldn't happen.
That is why my view on Kubica/Alonso incident at silverstone was (and still is) that Alonso should give his position back AND Kubica should be given a penalty for squeezing Alonso.
Stewards and all the official involved need to be a lot more consistent.

Again, I must stress that I don't like what Schumacher doing, but I also don't like the fact that Barrichello came up purely as a victim in this incident.



Actually, RB said he was concerned that if he backed off their wheels would have hit because of them being interlocked.

#727 mursuka80

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:54

how come the one guy who raced against michael for the whole of their career never bitched then?

hakkinen is a true racer whilst all the other whiners are just cry babies who dont want to "RACE"


Mika bitched,but he bitched straight to MS,not the press.Thats how it should be done.

#728 jimm

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:56

Mika bitched,but he bitched straight to MS,not the press.Thats how it should be done.



HE did both. Justified IMHO.

MS has no class, never has. Up until now, I don't think MS had really done much to damage his 'legacy' despite his bad performances but moves like this will...this actually is not the first one this year is it?



#729 jimpo

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:56

Actually it is the Senna chop, ask Prost. Schumacher learned it from him.


Good point! I doubt it has been mentioned once yet in these 700+ messages.


#730 Peppe

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:57

Wise words from Mika

#731 rm111

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:59

I may be wrong here, but didnt rubens try to put montoya in a wall at spa a few years ago?

#732 Boing 2

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 19:00

Mika bitched,but he bitched straight to MS,not the press.Thats how it should be done.


i disagree, MS liked hakkinnen partly because of this attitude but only because it benefitted him. He could pull a dirty move on MH without having his reputation tarnished, Mika would talk away from the press, apologies could be made in private and the tough guy public image goes on.

I much prefer the Villeneuve, Montoya, barrichello approach of calling the guy dirty in public. If you want to drive like a prick then you'll have to take the consequenses.

#733 jimm

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 19:04

Good point! I doubt it has been mentioned once yet in these 700+ messages.

been mentioned several times....does not justify the move today.

#734 man

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 19:05

Mika is a typical Finn in that respect. He keeps his personal opinion of M Schumacher private as he did with all his team-mates including Senna. M Schumacher liked him because he kept it quiet but Mika probably thinks he is an idiot like everybody else.

#735 JackTorrance

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 19:06

When was it ignored?


Well, last week with Vettel vs Alonso for instance. And suddenly telling your driver that the other driver is faster gets you 100K fine whereas 2 years ago it wasnt fined. Or Rubens on Lewis last year at Brasil GP, where Rubens himself apologised to Lewis for 'sometimes putting him too close to the wall'. FIA stewards did nothing. The stewards stand out in being hugely inconsequent.

They had accidents BY ACCIDENT...not by a purposeful move designed to make a guy cause a huge crash that would have probably caused severe injury or fatalities.

The fact is that .....


Its not a fact. You are just speculating and in that thick red mist that clouds your view youve concluded Schumacher was out to murder poor Rubinho.



#736 jimm

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 19:08

Well, last week with Vettel vs Alonso for instance. And suddenly telling your driver that the other driver is faster gets you 100K fine whereas 2 years ago it wasnt fined. Or Rubens on Lewis last year at Brasil GP, where Rubens himself apologised to Lewis for 'sometimes putting him too close to the wall'. FIA stewards did nothing. The stewards stand out in being hugely inconsequent.



Its not a fact. You are just speculating and in that thick red mist that clouds your view youve concluded Schumacher was out to murder poor Rubinho.



:lol: Pot calling kettle

You really see no difference in the tricky conditions in corners with standing water and limited visablity vs a bright sunny day on a long straight with maximum dry grip?

Says it all about your objectivity.

#737 prty

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 19:09

Maybe Schumi didn't realise how little space was between the white line and the wall. Are you not willing to give him the benefit of the doubt?

No driver, not even Schumi, can know exactly how much space there is around a car next to him, especially with the high cockpit sides.


Then translate that uncertainity in extra distance with the wall, otherwise it's just negligent.

#738 F1Champion

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 19:20

The move was marginal, but I think RB had a clear view of the diminishing gap. He could have chosen not to pursue it. It's not like Schumacher changed direction, he only moved towards the wall. After the wall, there's the pit exit and grass. Not Schumacher's problem that RB chose a route which eventually put him off the track...

Hard racing.


Hard racing it was. Michael moved to the right as Rubens was behind, Rubens had the choice to go to the left and Michael would of been committed to moving right. As a result Rubens took the concrete wall route that Michael could defend against.

#739 Buttoneer

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 19:20

A reminder that children can browse these forums. Please control your language.

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#740 bonjon1979

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 19:28

Hard racing it was. Michael moved to the right as Rubens was behind, Rubens had the choice to go to the left and Michael would of been committed to moving right. As a result Rubens took the concrete wall route that Michael could defend against.


That just isn't what happened. Schumacher chose a line, he waited to see which way RB went, he looked in his left mirror - nope he's not there, he then looked in his right mirror. He saw rubens coming up on his inside and pushed him towards the wall. It was a horrendous move - i honestly can't understand anyone who thinks this is 'hard racing'. If they'd've touched it would've been horrific - close to 200mph, concrete wall, two cars...you do the math. He's lucky to get just 10 place grid penalty...

#741 Rurouni

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 19:29

Right... He was all the way alongside Michael before they got there, why should he back down when clearly on the way through rather than being the guy which 9/10ths of the track to play with.

And before you say anything, there was a big gap for Rubens to go in when he entered it, he then proceeded to move as far as he could to avoid the accident that Schumacher seemingly wanted.

It isn't about whether Schumi should gave any space or not.. it's about whether Barrichello should push through or back off. Barrichello have the option to make this incident a lot less dangerous, but he choose the dangerous path. If you ask what my opinion about Schumi, then I would say that he should gave Barrichello the space. That is why I gave an example on Kubica/Alonso Silverstone incident where I also want Kubica to be given a penalty for pushing Alonso. Whether Barrichello back off or not, Schumi should still be punished. Again, the biggest problem if Barricello did choose to back off is that this incident would look less severe, thus punishment for Schumacher probably would be light (reprimand perhaps?) and I really don't want that kind of stunt to be given a light punishment. IMO, on Kubica/Alonso incident, Kubica should get a drive-through.. on Barrichello/Schumacher incident, Schumi should get something that is more severe than that. The current penalty being given for Schumi is okay, although I wouldn't mind 1 race ban.


Actually, RB said he was concerned that if he backed off their wheels would have hit because of them being interlocked.

When I see the onboard reply, I see that Barrichello trajectory (and also Schumi) is slanted toward the right, so Barrichello should know that he will be pushed into the wall well before his front left tyre ahead of Schumi rear right tyre. I do believe that Barrichello knows that he is going to be pushed beyond the white line and probably he took the chance and try to force his way.. which make everything more dangerous.


I don't hate wheel to wheel racing... I also don't hate driver squeezing each other.. what I do hate is when a driver is pushing another driver off the track. But that doesn't mean the driver being pushed off the track doesn't have any mistake. If you cut a chicane, even when you're being pushed, you should give the position back. If you're being pushed continuously against the wall (like what Schumi did against Barrichello), then you should back off and let the official punish the squeezer.

Edited by Rurouni, 01 August 2010 - 19:37.


#742 jimm

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 19:30

That just isn't what happened. Schumacher chose a line, he waited to see which way RB went, he looked in his left mirror - nope he's not there, he then looked in his right mirror. He saw rubens coming up on his inside and pushed him towards the wall. It was a horrendous move - i honestly can't understand anyone who thinks this is 'hard racing'. If they'd've touched it would've been horrific - close to 200mph, concrete wall, two cars...you do the math. He's lucky to get just 10 place grid penalty...



Agree....I would say he should have gotten a 1 race ban but the way he has been driving and been dusted off by Rosberg, it is probably some degree of punishment by keeping him on the track. :lol:

#743 Mauseri

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 19:31

Agree....I would say he should have gotten a 1 race ban but the way he has been driving and been dusted off by Rosberg, it is probably some degree of punishment by keeping him on the track. :lol:

:up:

#744 Lopek

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 19:33

I think the move by Schumacher was dangerous and the FIA were correct to look at it.

The biggest issue with it was not the risk of putting it Barrichello in the wall – though that would have been horrendous – it was if a car had been coming out of the pitlane. The result of that does not bear thinking about.

For that it deserved a penalty. I personally thought a race ban would have been appropriate, but then a 10 place drop from where Schumacher is qualifying is pretty much the same as far as points are concerned.

Having said that I don’t think this move was significantly worse than many moves that currently happen in F1. It seems to have become the norm for drivers to confuse defending their position with pushing their competitor off the circuit.

Webber did it to Vettel at the Silverstone start, Vettel did it to Alonso off the start in Germany – similarly almost into the pitwall. The examples are never ending, it happens almost every time someone tries an overtake around the outside – the defending driver just runs them off at the exit of the corner.

It’s time that driving standards in F1 were clamped down on. The best racing happens where drivers give each other space on the track – see the McLaren drivers at Turkey.

I hope that this incident can be the stimulus to look at what is and isn’t tolerated. If everyone who ran a competitor off the road was penalised – or had to give up the position like cutting corners – I think we could see far more racing – drivers may actually try passing around the outside if they knew they were not going to be immediately run off the road on the exit. Would Rubens have gone inside today? Probably not!

I think that this incident should also lead to a review of the pitlane exit line policy. I’ve never understood why exiting cars need to stay within the line, yet cars on the circuit can go over it at racing speeds. It’s an accident waiting to happen. Surely it is time to make it illegal to cross it both ways – at least for the parts immediately near the pitwall end where the cars are unsighted.

#745 Craven Morehead

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 19:34

I thought it was awesome. Great gutsy pass by Rubens. Very hard defense by Michael. This is F1.

#746 jimm

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 19:35

It isn't about whether Schumi should gave any space or not.. it's about whether Barrichello should push through or back off. Barrichello have the option to make this incident a lot less dangerous, but he choose the dangerous path. If you ask what my opinion about Schumi, then I would say that he should gave Barrichello the space. That is why I gave an example on Kubica/Alonso Silverstone incident where I also want Kubica to be given a penalty for pushing Alonso. Whether Barrichello back off or not, Schumi should still be punished. Again, the biggest problem if Barricello did choose to back off is that this incident would look less severe, thus punishment for Schumacher probably would be light (reprimand perhaps?) and I really don't want that kind of stunt to be given a light punishment. IMO, on Kubica/Alonso incident, Kubica should get a drive-through.. on Barrichello/Schumacher incident, Schumi should get something that is more severe than that. The current penalty being given for Schumi is okay, although I wouldn't mind 1 race ban.



When I see the onboard reply, I see that Barrichello trajectory (and also Schumi) is slanted toward the right, so Barrichello should know that he will be pushed into the wall well before his front left tyre ahead of Schumi rear right tyre. I do believe that Barrichello knows that he is going to be pushed beyond the white line and probably he took the chance and try to force his way.. which make everything more dangerous.


I don't hate wheel to wheel racing... I also don't hate driver squeezing each other.. what I do hate is when a driver is pushing another driver off the track.



What? So you hate a driver pushing another one off the track but then you say it is RB's fault for trying a pass when it was MS who basically aimed his car at RB. Making the other guy go the long way around is understandable. RB probably anticipated he would be run to the whiteline...but not over it or too the wall. IF the excuse is "you know how mS is" then everyone can adopt that tactic and there will only be no on track passes or accidents as everyone can do anything to defend a position without consiquence.....what kind of racing is that?

Ms has the right to defend. Had he left 1 car width plus a little to the white line then no problems. Running RB almost into the wall and then into the pit lane exit is over the top.

#747 Nick Planas

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 19:36

At least the stewards have started to do something about this sort of behaviour. At the risk of sounding like an old fogey, it's only been since Senna and then Schumacher came on the scene that this sort of thing has been "acceptable". Just think of what happened to Webber in Valencia, and then imagine, if you can, that happening near the end of the pitlane... it really doesn't bear thinking about. It is not good sport, any more than nerfing people in the doors in the BTTC is good sport.

Today's incident at Brands Hatch highlights just what can happen when cars touch at speed.

Let's take stock for a couple of minutes about what F1 / Motor Racing is meant to be all about

Forget the arguments about 1cm here or 15cm there - the essence of the 'sport' that I have followed and generally loved since the '60s has been eroded. In the past, if you were a good sportsman (as almost every top line racer was) you accepted the fact that if you made a mistake out of a corner and your rival got near to you, or got alongside, or got a better run at the next corner, he had 'won' the corner. You did not 'make one legal move' (because there was no such a thing written into the rulebook) - you fought the guy into the next corner, on the brakes if you could, but you always gave them room. Before the finger pointing starts about other recent moves by other drivers - forget it - I am saying none of these 'one move only' moves is good - the rule should be revised / reviewed / removed. Quite simply, if another car is alongside you you should not steer in towards it - plain and simple!

Of course, in the 60s, '70s or even the 80s, chances were if you had a shunt at those speeds it would be nasty / fatal, but not only that, it was part of being a sportsman. I can think of many, many top drivers from the 60s and 70s, 80s and 90s and cannot imagine any of them pulling a stunt like that - ever. Just off the top of my head - Hakkinen, Mansell, Lauda, Stewart, Rindt, Jimmy Clark, Jack Brabham, both Hills, Surtees, Moss, Fangio - show me a single incident where any of them ever knowingly squeezed a rival towards a concrete wall, or off the track, at over 180mph.

For this reason, and despite much admiration for their driving skills and sheer talent and speed, I will never ever think of Schumacher (or Senna) as 'the greatest'.

#748 JPW

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 19:42

You ought to take a look at the uncompromising opinion of Ex Steward and ex GPDA Chairman Alex Wurz.

But then again that same Alex Wurz called foul when young Mr. Hamilton cocked-up in Spa 2 years ago and you were one of those to go ape-shit about that penalty.

So hypocrisy much or just a selective memory, or both :lol:

#749 JPW

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 19:43

I thought it was awesome. Great gutsy pass by Rubens. Very hard defense by Michael. This is F1.

Same here Craven, this is not ballet although from some of the comments you wonder  ;)

#750 as65p

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 19:45

As for your 3rd point, highly arguable. The left to right speed of Senna was much faster, that's for sure.



In the Estoril move there is about 4 times the space between Prost and the wall and about 3 times the space between the two cars, compared, repectively, to what we saw today. And that is precisley how much more dangerous and therefore how much worse it was.