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Barrichello/Schumacher Incident


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#851 jimm

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:02

It happned a bit and not just with them two Mansell was in his fair share Nelson as well. as well as other mid field runners.



Mansell for all his faults, left room as did Nelson. There is an awesome battle between Senna and Piquet at this very track that did not have this kind of BS.

Prost and Senna involved in 3 incidents together. There was an incident between Mansell and Senna at spa but that was a racing incident that took both out. They had a great race at Jerez where senna left room for a great side by side finish.

How many times for MS that he has basically run someone off the track or intentionally wrecked someone?
MIka Hak-F3 crash, Spa 90
HHF-Canada 98
Hill-Oz 94
JV-Jerez 97
JPM-Brazil, Sepang
RB-today....

that is just off the top of my head, does not include all the chops at the start of races and other incidents I that I can't take the time to remember.



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#852 jimm

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:04

this is actually not true since rubens got through without touching anything :)



He was off the track which is determined by the whiteline, not the edge of the tramac and does not include the pit lane exit.

#853 Brandz07

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:04

He is a douche bag.

:lol: :up: :up: :up: :up:


#854 Birelman

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:05

my argument is that both of them were dickheads into that move
one of them for squeezing late and too much (although he did leave a car's width there, only by change, but he did)..and the other one for being a complete dumbass two time..first he got into that space KNOWING he would be squeezed and second for the way he rejoined...
he could have lifted and slot in behind, he was running out of road and going straight into a wall...instead he moved across into another car's path at 300+ km/h

how is his last judgement "safer" if people keep saying ms could have killed rb today?

they both took things way too far into this

To be completely honest, had I been in Rubens's shoes, I would have done the same thing, as 1) I would be marginally ahead, hence I dictate the path, and 2) I would trust that by that point the other guy must have backed off the squeeze. Me saying this doesn't mean much as 1) it's only my opinion, and 2) had I been in Schumacher's shoes I would have done the same, however, I would have backed off the squeeze once we had cleared the wall, or the other guy got marginally ahead.

Edited by Birelman, 01 August 2010 - 22:06.


#855 Mauseri

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:05

That MS got penalized for this will go down as another baloney penalty on MS, just like Monaco...

Not a fan, not my hero... But he returned to F1 with a target on his back, apparently...

When I became a fan of F1 a quarter-century ago, I am absolutely positive now one would have even blinked about the pass that occurred today.

F1 has officially gone soft with no return. No doubt anymore why I can't be bothered to watch a single race live anymore...

I think your viewpoint is biased. You must analyze all cases individually to not get carried away by conspiracies. Monaco was unfortunate incident, but it was deemed according to rules and sometimes the rules are weird. There have been far more debatable penalties, like the one for Alonso in Monza 2006 qualifying for example.

As for Schumis defending in Hungary. He has done this many time before without getting a penalty. About time, in my opinion. He should have been penalized for this all the way from the 90s.We don't need driving like this, that the driver looks hard in the mirror and tries very hard to stay in front of the overtaking driver, in order to force him to lift on straight. Some call that hard racing, but I feel those moves are very unfair and dangerous. Having said that, Schumacher is not the only driver who does it, but it's not more appropriate by drivers like Webber or Alonso either.

Edited by Bianchimont, 01 August 2010 - 22:07.


#856 Massa_f1

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:06

As a long term Schumacher fan i will be realistic and not have my head in the clouds. Some of the things he does on track are hard and yes may come across as dangerous to some people but thats just the way he defends. He will leave it entirely up to the other driver of how its going to play out. Just like Senna used to do and other drivers and fans wont like this for sure.

He has never IMO put someones life in danger certinly not on pupropse.

I don't agree or defend him over is 97 incident or is parking in 06. Most other things he has done in the past have all been hard racing which some people will never be able to understand you would have to Micheal to even begin to understand were some of his defensive driving comes from but its his racing mentality just like Prost Senna Mansell and theres even abit of Hill in there to but maybe that was him trying to emulate Schumacher.

Today was one of them things were maybe he pushed to hard maybe even over the edge for the casual racer.

Do i think he will win again in f1 in all honesty no i dont not this year or next if he stays.

I give him full credit for sticking with it even tough he can barely make the top 10. Would be easy to give up but he has not.

I am still his fan and will continue to be unless he does something in my book which could never be forgiven.

#857 chrisblades85

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:07

I've just watched the race. (I was at Superleague)

What can I say. I clinched up and shouted NOOOO when I saw it.

The worst "defensive" move I have seen him pull off.

Yes, they might not have crashed, like 94, 97 etc but this was at 180 mph. Against a wall.

I'll defend Micheal, as much as his next fan. But I can't on this one.

#858 jimm

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:07

my argument is that both of them were dickheads into that move
one of them for squeezing late and too much (although he did leave a car's width there, only by change, but he did)..and the other one for being a complete dumbass two time..first he got into that space KNOWING he would be squeezed and second for the way he rejoined...
he could have lifted and slot in behind, he was running out of road and going straight into a wall...instead he moved across into another car's path at 300+ km/h

how is his last judgement "safer" if people keep saying ms could have killed rb today?

they both took things way too far into this



So all you have to do is get a rep for squeezing a competitor and then everyone who tries to pass you is a "dickhead" meaning you have open license to do what ever you want to anyone who is "a dumbass" enough to try and overtake.....

Wow, what a great series it would be if all the drivers are allowed to adopt this tactic. :rolleyes:

#859 DarthWillie

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:11

there were 2 dangerous moments in the move
1) rubens squeezed against the wall into the pit exit
2) rubens bumping his way back onto the track

I've only seen comments how ms's move on the 1st one could have got someone killed
hypocrisy prevents comments on the 2nd?
rubens jinxed right at actually a higher speed than 1). is this suddenly acceptable and could not get someone killed?

2 is a direct consequence of 1

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#860 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:11

So all you have to do is get a rep for squeezing a competitor and then everyone who tries to pass you is a "dickhead" meaning you have open license to do what ever you want to anyone who is "a dumbass" enough to try and overtake.....

Wow, what a great series it would be if all the drivers are allowed to adopt this tactic. :rolleyes:

no you got it wrong
i said both of them were dickheads, it doesn't mean everyone who tries bla bla bla..
just them in this situation were dickheads.

#861 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:12

2 is a direct consequence of 1

that doesn't allow it or make it safer
yes, 2 appeared only because of one but this is where the analogy stops.

#862 jimm

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:13

no you got it wrong
i said both of them were dickheads, it doesn't mean everyone who tries bla bla bla..
just them in this situation were dickheads.



It is the only logical conclusion from your statement regardless of what you meant

#863 4L3X

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:25

I agree with this description from Rubens, after talking to the stewards here:

Rubens Barrichello: I've just went to see them. It was the very first time I saw the [television] image from the front and with it you can see his helmet is tucked to the side. So he is looking into my wheel - so he is at that point not choosing his line. He is choosing his line against my wheel - and that is what I complained about on the radio two laps before. I said, 'he is choosing his line too late.' And when you choose your line too late, then people touch and go up in the wall.

He made a mistake at the last corner, and came out much slower, so he knew I was coming. If I was him, I would have chosen to go right on the inside and let me go on the outside. But he was just measuring me by my wheel. So for me that is the wrong bit – even though I was already alongside.

(Autosport)

He was choosing the line TOO late, to squeeze a competitor on the inside PAST the white lines. It's worse than I first thought. I think he got off pretty light now.

Edited by 4L3X, 01 August 2010 - 22:31.


#864 Brandz07

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:26

there's stupid, and then there's this.

there's many schumacher fans defending him, saying that 'they never actually touched', blah blah blah. i'm sorry, but putting someone at full speed into a wall doesn't need a touch to realise that michael's a complete idiot with no respect for anyone but himself. he's a complete joke of a man, he clearly believes he IS formula 1 and to be honest, i can't wait to see him get overtaken many many more times this year because it will clearly happen, he's getting worse in my opinion and so is his car. how can anyone defend a man that's put someone within 5cm of a potentially fatal situation? does he not give rubens, the guy that helped him get titles on a plate, enough respect to let him pass in a clearly much quicker car, it was pointless defending a point like this; Ruben's has a young family for god sake and he's doing this for 1 POINT! even for a win this would be just as stupid.

all this one line bull shit and stuff, it's stupid. use common sense, he's pulled a completely wreckless and dangerous move, nothing else needs to be discussed.

the sooner he's out of f1, the better.

Edited by Brandz07, 01 August 2010 - 22:28.


#865 4L3X

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:27

BTW, I don't know why people are bringing Senna in 90...It was at the start, the speeds was not even there, there was no wall, no squeezing past white lines, etc. Totally different situation, even if wrong. Same thing with Weber and Massa, Weber could squeeze Massa to the wall, that's hard racing, but not past the racing line. Massa had more than a car left to the wall.

#866 Paul Prost

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:34

How many times for MS that he has basically run someone off the track or intentionally wrecked someone?
MIka Hak-F3 crash, Spa 90
HHF-Canada 98
Hill-Oz 94
JV-Jerez 97
JPM-Brazil, Sepang
RB-today....

that is just off the top of my head, does not include all the chops at the start of races and other incidents I that I can't take the time to remember.

Fernando - 1st Lap of Silverstone 2004 IIRC
Hakkinen - Spa 2000 - the lap before Hakkinen's famous pass Schuey does the chop at 300 km/h. Hakkinen gives him the famous 'driving lesson' in the pits afterwards... a shame Schuey never took the advice.

#867 Ian G

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:34

I just think the whole incident is sad for both of them,Schumacher after being lapped by Webber "fighting" for 10th place,what the hell is he doing,he'll be remembered for a failed comeback instead of a brilliant F-1 career.



#868 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:36

. Same thing with Weber and Massa, Weber could squeeze Massa to the wall, that's hard racing, but not past the racing line. Massa had more than a car left to the wall.

what exactly is the difference??
what does racing line mean on a straight?

#869 4L3X

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:40

I meant the track limits, denoted by the white lines.

#870 jimm

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:41

what exactly is the difference??
what does racing line mean on a straight?



He probably meant the painted white line that defines the edge of the track. A think ignored by MS and apparently his fans.

Edited by jimm, 01 August 2010 - 22:41.


#871 Urawa

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:42

BTW, I don't know why people are bringing Senna in 90...It was at the start, the speeds was not even there, there was no wall, no squeezing past white lines, etc. Totally different situation, even if wrong. Same thing with Weber and Massa, Weber could squeeze Massa to the wall, that's hard racing, but not past the racing line. Massa had more than a car left to the wall.


Posted Image

Sure, sure...

#872 4L3X

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:43

Where's the wall there? And that's the pit lane exit lane, that is slanted, not parallel to the track.

Nice try.

#873 hotstickyslick

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:43

Posted Image

Sure, sure...

They weren't even alongside then which is totally different to what happened today. Barrichello was alongside and Schumacher continued to squeeze him.

#874 jimm

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:43

Posted Image

Sure, sure...



Equally wrong....Happy? effects nothing from today except the FIA finally has decided to bring an end to the BS/.

#875 Urawa

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:44

Where's the wall there? And that's the pit lane exit lane, that is slanted, not parallel to the track.

Nice try.


The wall is that nice red thing on the right less than half a meter away from Massa´s front tyre

#876 Gene and Tonic

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:45

Not willing to wade through 22 pages, but anyone suggesting Rubens did anything wrong seriously needs their head checking. That is all

#877 Urawa

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:46

Equally wrong....Happy? effects nothing from today except the FIA finally has decided to bring an end to the BS/.


Very happy as I can´t stand double standards and hypocrisy

#878 scheivlak

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:48

Fernando - 1st Lap of Silverstone 2004 IIRC

2003

#879 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:48

Very happy as I can´t stand double standards and hypocrisy

let's hope they keep on punishing these "defensive" moves

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#880 4L3X

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:49

At that point Weber stopped moving. But I'm not going to discuss this point here anymore.

The wall is that nice red thing on the right less than half a meter away from Massa´s front tyre



#881 Urawa

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:50

let's hope they keep on punishing these "defensive" moves


Indeed. I already said after the race that I agree with the punishment but I can not agree that similar things were left unpunished in the past and I´m sure, will, in the future.

#882 Nitropower

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:50

I've sometimes defended Schumacher being off pace this year, depending on how much off the pace he was, but his behaviour on track is a disgrace. I do think he goes on the defensive even more than normal when it's Barrichello in his mirrors. It was the most nasty incident I've seen, of someone pushing another competitor towards the wall! Horrible, and I was so hoping for a race-ban for him! One, 'cause he would've deserved it, and two because it would've been fun to see Heidfeld performing closer to Rosberg's level than he's able to.


Exactly my thoughts. 1 race ban minimum, then if your pride is too much to accept it go home and leave us alone.

#883 Urawa

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:56

At that point Weber stopped moving. But I'm not going to discuss this point here anymore.


I just wanted to give you a little help to estimate distances.

#884 jj2728

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:57

I've come to the realization that some of you think that F1 is no more than a live Playstation game put on tv for our benefit. F1 is a loud, violent, dangerous sport and Schumacher's actions today could have had very serious consequences for both he and Barrichello.

#885 Claudius

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:58

That move was apalling. The guy is either crazy or stupid.

He deserved a race ban for this incident.



Claudius (who used to be a MS fan but no more)

Edited by Claudius, 01 August 2010 - 22:59.


#886 frp

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 23:09

From which lunatic asylum did you escape? Are you suggesting that had Barrichello gone left Schumacher would have just let him pass? Er no - He would have run him off the left side of the track...

As he did with another former team-mate at Montreal this year. Today, Schumacher came off the corner, moved to the centre of the track, watched in his mirrors to see which way Barrichello would go, and then moved the same way to push him off. Had Rubens gone left, Michael would have pushed him off onto the grass.

Edited by frp, 01 August 2010 - 23:10.


#887 Spa One

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 23:12


The onboard shot from this is particularly eye opening:

http://www.wat.tv/vi...ar5_2fh4r_.html



#888 Dan333SP

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 23:22

LOL, just watched the race on DVR and when I saw that move, I thought to myself, "that's going to generate a thread with over 1,000 posts in a single day on autosport", and I was right, it'll probably be 1,000+ by the end of the day. Gotta love the feelings MS continues to generate, even in the midfield.

#889 jimm

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 23:25

The onboard shot from this is particularly eye opening:

http://www.wat.tv/vi...ar5_2fh4r_.html



You know, after watching that, I don't think these are quite the same. Webber was already against the edge of the track when Massa decided to go down the inside and did not move much after that. Contast to today with RB already along side when MS started to move. Clearly today's event quite a bit harder of a move.

#890 Birelman

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 23:27

They weren't even alongside then which is totally different to what happened today. Barrichello was alongside and Schumacher continued to squeeze him.

Ya, this Webber move is just about as bad, though, Massa seems a bit too optimistic, his front tire hasn't cleared Webber's rear yet, unlike Rubens who was interlocked, and almost level at that same point. But, I think Mark is equally guilty as Schumacher today. Webber is particularily crazy as he gave MAssa the 4 wheel salute while Massa was in the pit exit LOL

I don't understand why this has to be brought up, as we're not exactly the FIA that let this one escape yet picked up on Michael, but, whatever. two wrongs don't make a right.

Edited by Birelman, 01 August 2010 - 23:30.


#891 jimm

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 23:32

Ya, this Webber move is just about as bad, though, Massa seems a bit too optimistic, his front tire hasn't cleared Webber's rear yet, unlike Rubens who was interlocked, and almost level at that same point. But, I think Mark is equally guilty as Schumacher today. Webber is particularily crazy as he gave MAssa the 4 wheel salute while Massa was in the pit exit LOL

I don't understand why this has to be brought up, as we're not exactly the FIA that let this one escape yet picked up on Michael, but, whatever. two wrongs don't make a right.



Agreed.

#892 Birelman

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 23:32

You know, after watching that, I don't think these are quite the same. Webber was already against the edge of the track when Massa decided to go down the inside and did not move much after that. Contast to today with RB already along side when MS started to move. Clearly today's event quite a bit harder of a move.

I would agree, except Mark did jerk towards Massa while Massa was in the pit exit, which I think is kinda nuts. But, yea, up until they reach the pit exit, it's a different scenario.

#893 hotstickyslick

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 23:32

Ya, this Webber move is just about as bad, though, Massa seems a bit too optimistic, his front tire hasn't cleared Webber's rear yet, unlike Rubens who was interlocked, and almost level at that same point. But, I think Mark is equally guilty as Schumacher today. Webber is particularily crazy as he gave MAssa the 4 wheel salute while Massa was in the pit exit LOL

I don't understand why this has to be brought up, as we're not exactly the FIA that let this one escape yet picked up on Michael, but, whatever. two wrongs don't make a right.

What Webber did I find was quite aggressive but not downright dangerous unline Schumacher's antics.

#894 4L3X

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 23:34

^^^True, that.

#895 Birelman

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 23:34

As he did with another former team-mate at Montreal this year. Today, Schumacher came off the corner, moved to the centre of the track, watched in his mirrors to see which way Barrichello would go, and then moved the same way to push him off. Had Rubens gone left, Michael would have pushed him off onto the grass.

Ya, Rubens saw Schumacher setting him up for that from a mile back, way too much experience in Rubens to fall for that one.

#896 Kooper

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 23:35

Brawn: "It may have ended up in a dangerous way but that wasn't the intent I am sure by Michael. Michael was defending his position, trying to encourage Rubens to go around the outside. I don't think for a moment that he saw Rubens there and thought 'I will squeeze him'."


SOP for Mercedes after every race this year is either Brawn and/or Norbert defending Shoe. Whether its for being so slow or attempted murder, they're right there for the old man.

#897 Birelman

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 23:36

What Webber did I find was quite aggressive but not downright dangerous unline Schumacher's antics.

Yea, after analyzing the video I agree, the picture though, shows it a bit worst than it actually was.

#898 Birelman

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 23:37

SOP for Mercedes after every race this year is either Brawn and/or Norbert defending Shoe. Whether its for being so slow or attempted murder, they're right there for the old man.

LOL I love that! We have a new one for MS! :clap:

At least now we know what his fans mean by him destroying the competition! :rotfl:

Edited by Birelman, 01 August 2010 - 23:37.


#899 saudoso

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 23:49

You know, after watching that, I don't think these are quite the same. Webber was already against the edge of the track when Massa decided to go down the inside and did not move much after that. Contast to today with RB already along side when MS started to move. Clearly today's event quite a bit harder of a move.

^^ :up: ^

FM jumped into there, RB was pushed today.

Just when I thought FA was replacing MS in this role here:

Posted Image

MS comes and shows his best form.

Edited by saudoso, 01 August 2010 - 23:54.


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#900 SeanValen

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 23:49

I personally think Damon Hills 3 times the line move on MS at Canada 1998 was more dangerous in which MS was the one complaining he could of been killed.

I think this Hungary 2010 move was a mistake by MS by not closing that line Rubens was trying to get through earlier and try and force him around the outside. Yence it was late, the speed of Rubens coming out of that last corner was quite immense compared to earlier laps where Brundle was commenting the mercedes engine is that little bit better, so with Rubens getting a good last corner, must of surprised MS, this isn't always easy to estimate, kinda like tennis, which way will the ball come next, I knew he wasn't going to give up, but this time he was tactically too late and caught out by Rubens speed on the straight, I wasn't expecting it at that specific point, I thought Rubens would get MS into breaking into the first corner, not having almost passed arriving into the first corner.

When Senna squeezed MS in the early 90s, and MS crashed out, and MS complained after, and this is not how a 3 times world champion should behave, it must of stuck with him. As soon as you know a driver is leaving more then a acceptable margin or margin-general standard, it becomes predictable, the psychologcial game in playing with the margins is something Senna showed to Schumacher, and now and again MS will show it, even if he risks penality, because the greater reward is the Senna reward, the never give up mantle-and this is important for future races. Then deny you were doing anything more then hard racing-tough racing. Exactly what Damon Hill was trying to be at Canada 1998, trying to be more aggressive like Senna and Schumi and getting it wrong, MS still overtook him and Hill said he's a hella driver after all that.



Edited by SeanValen, 02 August 2010 - 00:05.