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Barrichello/Schumacher Incident


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#1001 Gareth

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 07:51

Nonsense. Barrichello should have backed off the moment the pit wall ended.

If he thought being pushed up against the pit wall was that dangerous and that Schumacher was risking his life... as soon as you have the opportunity you would remove yourself from that situation.

If you punch me in the face and I don't run away, is it my fault when you punch me in the face again?

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#1002 Ricardo F1

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 07:51

I get you guys think Schumacher's move was outrageous, fair enough... absolutely. I won't dispute your thoughts on that.

But Barrichello's hot headed reaction was dangerous too, very. He didn't back out even when he could - if he couldn't before due to the pit wall, he defiantly could have well before the grass... avoiding ever having to chop right into Schumacher.

WTF? Rubens having passed the attempted homicide attempt from Schumacher started driving back to the racing line to turn into the next corner. Schumacher should have been going to same way. Bit mirrors the Webber / Vettel incident where Vettel assumed that Webber would have a vague interest in the racing line.

Your defense of Schumacher is unbelievable RB. Unbelievable.


#1003 Simon Says

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 07:52

Nonsense. Barrichello should have backed off the moment the pit wall ended.

If he thought being pushed up against the pit wall was that dangerous and that Schumacher was risking his life... as soon as you have the opportunity you would remove yourself from that situation. Barrichello did not, he kept in there until he had 2 options, run over the grass or swerve into Schumacher and hope he'll jump out the way to avoid a 300kph crash.

He chose: swerve into Schumacher.

:rolleyes:

How is getting back on the track swerving. :rolleyes: MS pushed Rubens over the white line, so he pushed Rubens off the track :wave: All Rubens did was getting back on the track.



See here before you talk more non-sense about Rubens swerving.

MS has been doing it this year more than one time, swerving across the track to run somebody off the road or crash into someone.


#1004 RedBaron

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 07:54

Not at 300kph, and not after driving through a gutter that would have sent the car flying. How is this even debatable?


He didn't have to be facing the option of running over grass. He should of and could of backed off sooner and slotted in behind Schumacher! He was hot headed, he refused to back off... Schumacher put him up against the wall... Rubens alone put himself facing running over the grass... he had options when the pit wall ended, the options he chose to follow through with were dangerous.

#1005 Gareth

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 07:55

Yes but sometimes there are both guilty. If someone threaten your live to say with gun what you do: go toward him or you run? Rubens didn't run. He walk against the gun. Stupid if you ask me. You can't say anything after that, he accepted the game and the outcome(if there was such).

Great analogy, for why your defence is utterly wrong.

If the guy walks up to the gun, because he thinks "the guy isn't so bad that he'll shoot" maybe he's stupid, but if the guy shoots it's entirely the gun holder's fault. And he's gone from one illegal act to two.

In this instance, if Schumacher hadn't made space for Barrichello on the track he would have committed 2 offences.

So if you think Barrichello was stuipd, you are basically saying "Barrichello should know that Schumacher is a cheat and should expect him to not play by the rules".

#1006 Ricardo F1

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 07:56

He didn't have to be facing the option of running over grass. He should of and could of backed off sooner and slotted in behind Schumacher! He was hot headed, he refused to back off...

Uh, he had greater momentum and had his wheels alongside Schumacher. .then his car . . then in front. Hot headed? It's called OVERTAKING why on Earth should Rubens have backed off?????????? You don't have the right to put a faster car in the wall, PERIOD.


#1007 RedBaron

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 07:57

:rolleyes:

How is getting back on the track swerving. :rolleyes: MS pushed Rubens over the white line, so he pushed Rubens off the track :wave: All Rubens did was getting back on the track.


Getting back on track with direction change as sharp as that in a direction that aims your car into the side of another is dangerous and a swerve. There is a peddle called the brake peddle, if he had used that as he came back on the circuit then there'd be no issue, but he refused to, because he purposefully wanted to hit back at Schumacher as he was raging.


#1008 Gareth

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 07:58

He was hot headed, he refused to back off...

He refused to back down to Schumacher's illegal bully boy tactics.

You call that hot headed. I think it was brave.

Perhaps this is because I like people who don't back down to bullies whereas you don't like it when people stand up to bullies?

#1009 Boing 2

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 07:59

I guess once you make the decision to support the filthiest driver on the grid, talking shite becomes a default setting. :drunk:

#1010 RedBaron

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:00

Uh, he had greater momentum and had his wheels alongside Schumacher. .then his car . . then in front. Hot headed? It's called OVERTAKING why on Earth should Rubens have backed off?????????? You don't have the right to put a faster car in the wall, PERIOD.


Why should he have backed off? Because he had 2 options:

1. Run over the grass and apparently send himself into the air.

2. Slice into Schumacher and hope he moves to avoid a 300kph crash.

Both very dangerous... surely this whole topic is about danger? Barrichello could have avoid a second dangerous moment, this time one caused by him - he did not.


#1011 Raelene

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:00

ricardo
Rubens having passed the attempted homicide attempt from Schumacher

. Oh ff what an exaggeratiion. Stop being so melodramatic

#1012 ivand911

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:00

He refused to back down to Schumacher's illegal bully boy tactics.

You call that hot headed. I think it was brave.

Perhaps this is because I like people who don't back down to bullies whereas you don't like it when people stand up to bullies?

Because people are like this(brave) such accidents happens and will happen again.


#1013 Boing 2

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:01

He refused to back down to Schumacher's illegal bully boy tactics.

You call that hot headed. I think it was brave.

Perhaps this is because I like people who don't back down to bullies whereas you don't like it when people stand up to bullies?


:up:

for a guy chasing 300 grands prix, Rubens commitment blew me away yesterday. He was actually very restrained and level headed talking about it afterwards.

Top guy. :smoking:

#1014 Simon Says

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:01

Getting back on track with direction change as sharp as that in a direction that aims your car into the side of another is dangerous and a swerve. There is a peddle called the brake peddle, if he had used that as he came back on the circuit then there'd be no issue, but he refused to, because he purposefully wanted to hit back at Schumacher as he was raging.

:lol:

Did you even watch the replay.

Rubens didn't move over to hit Schumacher. He moved over to get back on the track.

And once Rubens was on the track, he kept the inner line. Where do you see Rubens pushing MS all the the way to the other side of the track? :rotfl:

And no, Rubens was ahead of MS at that point. Rubens was in his right to change direction, especially since MS was forcing Rubens onto the grass :rolleyes:

#1015 Rocket73

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:01

so can michael drive as dangerous as he likes to stop people getting past?

Edited by Rocket73, 02 August 2010 - 08:01.


#1016 JPW

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:01

I guess I expected people defending Schumacher for this. But people attacking Barichello for supposedly trying to ram Schumacher? I know standards can drop really really low but that's further than I expected possible. Sheesh.

What Barrichello did was instinctive and imo he knew Michael would move aside, so no problem there just hard racing and that's where I'd file this little incident anyway.

The whining afterwards is annoying but what can you expect from Rubens, it's like Schumacher himself said "You have formula 1 drivers and then you have Rubens Barrichello". :lol:

#1017 Boing 2

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:02

Because people are like this(brave) such accidents happens and will happen again.



Wrong. Because idiots keep pushing their competitors into walls this kind of accident will happen again and again. Rubens had no say in the matter.

#1018 Simon Says

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:02

Why should he have backed off? Because he had 2 options:

1. Run over the grass and apparently send himself into the air.

2. Slice into Schumacher and hope he moves to avoid a 300kph crash.

Both very dangerous... surely this whole topic is about danger? Barrichello could have avoid a second dangerous moment, this time one caused by him - he did not.


No MS could have avoided that 2nd dangerous moment, by stop forcing Rubens off the track, but he didn't. :wave:

#1019 Gareth

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:03

Why should he have backed off? Because he had 2 options:

1. Run over the grass and apparently send himself into the air.

2. Slice into Schumacher and hope he moves to avoid a 300kph crash.

Both very dangerous... surely this whole topic is about danger? Barrichello could have avoid a second dangerous moment, this time one caused by him - he did not.

Option 2 would only be dangerous if Schumacher had not moved (as Barrichello hoped). If Schumacher had not moved then he would have committed a second illegal action. Therefore if the second moment had been dangerous it would have been caused by Schumacher, not Barrichello.

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#1020 VresiBerba

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:04

Hard racing it was. Michael moved to the right as Rubens was behind, Rubens had the choice to go to the left and Michael would of been committed to moving right. As a result Rubens took the concrete wall route that Michael could defend against.

Do you honestly think that Shumi would still move to the right like he did if Rubens weren't there but instead went to the left? Honestly :rolleyes:

#1021 Boing 2

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:04

What Barrichello did was instinctive and imo he knew Michael would move aside, so no problem there just hard racing and that's where I'd file this little incident anyway.

The whining afterwards is annoying but what can you expect from Rubens, it's like Schumacher himself said "You have formula 1 drivers and then you have Rubens Barrichello". :lol:



To be honest, most of the whining is coming from the schumacher fanatics, :wave:



Rubens has actually been very restrained about it all

#1022 RedBaron

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:05

Option 2 would only be dangerous if Schumacher had not moved (as Barrichello hoped). If Schumacher had not moved then he would have committed a second illegal action. Therefore if the second moment had been dangerous it would have been caused by Schumacher, not Barrichello.


haha utter nonsense, so now by not moving he would be committing a second illegal move? Drivers squeeze other drivers wide and don't let them back onto the circuit often. If you run out of road you run out of road. Schumacher cannot be responsible for someone rapidly changing direction into him!

:drunk:

#1023 JPW

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:07

WTF? Rubens having passed the attempted homicide attempt from Schumacher.............

LOL we really need some violins with all this drama :lol:

#1024 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:07

What Barrichello did was instinctive and imo he knew Michael would move aside, so no problem there just hard racing and that's where I'd file this little incident anyway.

exactly but that doesn't make his move smart or safe.

#1025 Boing 2

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:08

haha utter nonsense, so now by not moving he would be committing a second illegal move? Drivers squeeze other drivers wide and don't let them back onto the circuit often. If you run out of road you run out of road. Schumacher cannot be responsible for someone rapidly changing direction into him!

:drunk:



If he's pushed him off the track and into a rapidly shrinking wedge of tarmac at 180mph then of course he's responsible for him coming back at him.

He hasn't given him any other choice.

#1026 Boing 2

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:10

LOL we really need some violins with all this drama :lol:


Maybe you think dead drivers are funny, having read your posts in the past it wouldn't surprise me much but if anyone should appreciate the potential outcome of a driver hitting a concrete wall at high speed it's Schumacher.....

#1027 ivand911

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:10

Michael was in the middle of the track, going steadily on the right. Why Rubens decide to go to the right too. He was so fast(2,5-3sec and 9km/h) he can pass him easily from the left too. And from the left side there isn't a wall.

#1028 RedBaron

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:11

If he's pushed him off the track and into a rapidly shrinking wedge of tarmac at 180mph then of course he's responsible for him coming back at him.

He hasn't given him any other choice.



Back off, you are running out of road. That is an option... when ever is cutting into another driver the best option? Especially when backing off and having another go into/on the exit of turn 1 is on the cards.

Edited by RedBaron, 02 August 2010 - 08:11.


#1029 Ricardo F1

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:11

Ricardo -
We can take the rights and wrongs about Lewis to the correct thread if you like, as I totally disagree with you.

I think what LH did was wrong and serious breach, but he's actually not my issue here (in fact I also mentioned other breaches, from other drivers, but you don't worrya bout them as it's not Lewham. - it's the stewards I have an issue with...that infringement deserved far more than a "drive through" which due to how long they had to debate it - was no punishment at all. Again, I'm talking about the stewards here - not lewham.

We can ; and I get the issue ; Lewis got properly punished for missing getting past the SC by 2 metres, something that you don't like but is perfectly legal and Alonso wanted to do as well (as would any driver). The stewards were reviewing a load of crazy stuff around the safety car coming out, not just that - these things take time and this time it benefitted Hamilton. It's benefited numerous drivers in the past (Rosberg in Singapore, etc) ; shit just happens sometimes when all hell breaks loose.


#1030 Jazza

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:11

haha utter nonsense, so now by not moving he would be committing a second illegal move? Drivers squeeze other drivers wide and don't let them back onto the circuit often. If you run out of road you run out of road. Schumacher cannot be responsible for someone rapidly changing direction into him!

:drunk:


So RB should back off or brake to avoid MS's insane moves, but MS has every right to hold to the inside line of the corner boxing RB into the grass?

So MS has rights, and RB does not? (Why does this conversation remind me of Ferrari?)



#1031 JPW

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:11

exactly but that doesn't make his move smart or safe.

No it wasn't but no problem with that, it's racing you know these things can happen :cool:

#1032 RedBaron

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:13

So RB should back off or brake to avoid MS's insane moves, but MS has every right to hold to the inside line of the corner boxing RB into the grass?

So MS has rights, and RB does not? (Why does this conversation remind me of Ferrari?)



No Schumacher obviously did not have the right. He got a 10 place grid drop... why did Barrichello have to make the situation worse. Especially after escaping unscathed from what has just happened.

#1033 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:13

How did Barrichello make the situation worse? Michael got the penalty based on his actions, not Barrichello complaining.

#1034 stillOrange

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:13

I'll just paraphrase Michaels quote

We know certain drivers fans have certain views and then there are Michaels fans

It says it all for me

#1035 JPW

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:14

Maybe you think dead drivers are funny.......................

:lol: love it more dramatics :up:

#1036 Rinehart

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:16

Can't see a lot of difference between this and Webber squeezing Vettel in Turkey and Vettel squeezing Alonso in Germany, for example, except for the fact that Michael Schumacher was involved.

I don't hink its right, but its the FIA who have in the past allowed moving to squeeze after a car is alongside without penalty, so they need to change the rules, rather than picking on MS.

#1037 rolf123

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:16

Frankly, Rubens should have had a drive through for cutting the track.

Don't tell me he was forced off the track. This defence did not work for Alonso in Silverstone.


#1038 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:18

He didn't gain an advantage by going off track.

#1039 RedBaron

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:18

Can't see a lot of difference between this and Webber squeezing Vettel in Turkey and Vettel squeezing Alonso in Germany, for example, except for the fact that Michael Schumacher was involved.

I don't hink its right, but its the FIA who have in the past allowed moving to squeeze after a car is alongside without penalty, so they need to change the rules, rather than picking on MS.



Schumacher's was a little more squeeze but exactly the same principle is there, but you're right it's just because of Schumacher's name being part of this saga. When other drivers driver hard it's barely mentioned, when Schumacher does it he is trying to kill people.!

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#1040 ivand911

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:18

So RB should back off or brake to avoid MS's insane moves, but MS has every right to hold to the inside line of the corner boxing RB into the grass?

So MS has rights, and RB does not? (Why does this conversation remind me of Ferrari?)

When you not back off you accept responsibility for what will happen too. You take important decision here. We say he have choice to decide what to do. He have right to lift or not to lift. Nobody say he need to lift, but he have this choice. It was his decision.


#1041 Ricardo F1

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:21

LOL we really need some violins with all this drama :lol:

I thought that one was quite funny. :D


#1042 undersquare

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:21

No he didn't!

Posted Image

Posted Image

Have you cared to look? Rubens has overlap in the first picture and oh, how about that, another car-length of space has disappeared in the second picture. Wonder how? "As" Rubens pulled alongside? He was already alongside and still kept pulling over. The pictures prove that. There is no argument about that part. And look at Schumachers head. He knows exactly what he is looking at.
...

The sooner he retires again, the better.


Yup, this shows the point, Schumacher kept sqeezing.

People claiming Webber and Vettel have done the same are not tuning in to huge differences of degree. Not that those were OK IMO but the margin for error here was tiny. And a car exiting the pits doesn't bear thinking about.

And as for Hamilton, people trying to say breaking Petrov's tow or being 0.5s late passing the safety car are equally bad really have a screw loose :stoned: . Hammy is a very fair, safe racer, completely at the opposite end of the scale from MS.

Nothing justifies what MS did, he should have had an immediate black flag.

#1043 TT6

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:21

I think it's quite another thing to make a "defending move" forcing someone to use a bit of grass or gravel than to push someone towards concrete at 300 km/h even it would be just "one defending move".

#1044 VresiBerba

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:21

LOL what a joke, preaching here that Mercedes didn't give a damn about Macca cheating, lying and copping a $100 million penalty but about a racing incident they will be upset?

Laughable dude, really :rolleyes: :lol:

Remind us again how many McLaren shares Mercedes owns after that fact, again.

#1045 Ricardo F1

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:22

Why should he have backed off? Because he had 2 options:

1. Run over the grass and apparently send himself into the air.

2. Slice into Schumacher and hope he moves to avoid a 300kph crash.

Both very dangerous... surely this whole topic is about danger? Barrichello could have avoid a second dangerous moment, this time one caused by him - he did not.

Seriously what are you smoking? Rubens was alongside, at that point Schumacher should leave him the room - no more movement right. Period. Once RB was passed Schumacher he headed back to the racing line ; he didn't slice into ANYONE.


#1046 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:23

Hammy is a very fair, safe racer, completely at the opposite end of the scale from MS.

yeap, ask Timo about it.

#1047 rolf123

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:23

He didn't gain an advantage by going off track.


He overtook off-track. I do that in Mariokart with the feather but in real racing, overtaking on the inside of the track is not allowed.

#1048 ivand911

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:24

I would love black flag there , than 10 place penalty for next race.

#1049 RedBaron

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:24

And a car exiting the pits doesn't bear thinking about.


That wasn't unique to this incident, to blame Schumacher and bring that to light just to add to this incident is classic blame everything onto Schumacher. Hundreds of times battles have taken up the exit of the pitlane...

#1050 baddog

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:25

To be fair, Rubens did say something a lot like 'Usually I would have backed off from something like that but not today' which implies he had the chance to do so. Not saying he needed to or should have, and in the end his move stuck, but he implied himself that he knew what was happening and made the choice to keep going for it because it was Michael and he wasnt going to be bullied.

Ill try to find the word for word quote to see if I am right about that. If anyone else can that would be good also.