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Barrichello/Schumacher Incident


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#1151 plutoman

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 12:10

Schumacher was the best driver in the world for more than a decade, so I never understood why he needed to resort to such boneheaded tactics (do I really need to list them all?). Apparently just because Senna's on-track ethics were appalling, then Schumacher's are therefore acceptable. I don't see the logic in that.

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#1152 SimMaker

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 12:14

THis is how real champions do it:

Mansell passing Senna


And the great Senna did not feel the need to run Nigel off the road.

Thats the problem I have with Shumis action yesterday. Squeeze? Sure. But leave a cars width to the wall for the other driver.

People defending Shumachers move would no doubt like it so that whenever another car overtakes, the one being overtaken can just run the other one off the road? Webber left a cars width for Vettel, Button and Hammilton left a cars width for each other. Thats how we like to see it now-a-days. Pushed to the track edge? certainly, just not over it.

Come now. Shumi played a very dangerous game yesterday. Barachello did'nt help by keeping his foot in for sure, but thats between them two. Some little psychological drama played out before us yesterday. For 3-4 seconds, Bari became a "great", though I don't think he liked how far he had to hang his arse over the line, so I don't think its a permanent thing.

But, their past aside, the actual move MSC made was wrong. He should have left enough room for the other car.

Thats why he got slammed and demoted. People need to undertsand this. Or angry and bitter they will remain.

BTW, I've seen high speed machinery hit a crowd of people. Micheal should have got a crack in the mouth for that move to be honest. He was very lucky. And Merc has a history of this in motorsport that they could do well not to repeat.

#1153 Aloisioitaly

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 12:15

Apparently just because Senna's on-track ethics were appalling, then Schumacher's are therefore acceptable. I don't see the logic in that.


Senna was and is hailed as a hero; Schumi is dubbed a criminal: i don't see the logic in that.


#1154 as65p

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 12:16

What?!? Are you kiddin us?
Senna's dirty move could involve all the people behind the pitwall, causing a massacre. Joe Ramirez (good friend of Senna) called it a horrible move. There was no escape for Prost, cuz the track ended at the wall. As someone else already said, Schumi pushed Barrichello off the track: but Senna didn't, cuz there was no off-track space between the track and the wall. And yet, Schumi got a penalty and Senna did get a free pass, as usual.


Try to estimate the gaps, Senna <> Prost, Prost <> pit wall. Then the same for RB vs. MS. If you can.

I understand people calling it bad there and then, but in the meantime a few other moves, culminating in MS' from yesterday, should have put that into perspective.

#1155 as65p

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 12:16

Senna was and is hailed as a hero; Schumi is dubbed a criminal: i don't see the logic in that.


Look harder.

#1156 Desdirodeabike

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 12:21

Lot of opinions here. I can only say that I was just as shocked as ZOMG cat was:

#1157 Motormedia

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 12:22

What Senna introduced to F1, Schumacher developed. Doesn't make moves like yesterday justfified though. And despite my opinion about Senna being the best ever I don't think some of his actions were defendable either. Having said that, he matured a lot in his last years. The fact of the matter is that it's not the drivers that are at fault. This kind of racing has become accepted by the authorities and the limits has been pushed to the point where we now are just a few centimeters from a catastrophy for a penalty to be handed out. Personally, I believe the limit of what should be deemed acceptable is far, far away on the safer side from the situation yesterday.

#1158 BlackCat

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 12:23

Schumacher should have been shot and buried (from F1, of course) in 1997 if not in 1994 and the world would have been a cleaner place. So, nothing new here now, really.


#1159 Gareth

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 12:24

Try to estimate the gaps, Senna <> Prost, Prost <> pit wall. Then the same for RB vs. MS. If you can.

I understand people calling it bad there and then, but in the meantime a few other moves, culminating in MS' from yesterday, should have put that into perspective.

I think this one gives a better perspective:

My estimations:

[space Senna gave Prost on straight] = [space Prost gave Senna at the start] > [space Schumacher gave Rubens]

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#1160 scheivlak

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 12:24

Senna was and is hailed as a hero

Not by everyone, thankfully.

#1161 hotstickyslick

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 12:25

Senna was and is hailed as a hero; Schumi is dubbed a criminal: i don't see the logic in that.

There is no logic. Both have had disgusting behaviour on the track. Suzuka 1990 still ranks the worst out of the both of them for me.

#1162 plutoman

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 12:27

Senna was and is hailed as a hero; Schumi is dubbed a criminal: i don't see the logic in that.


Senna's 'hero' status has been elevated because of his early death. Yes, he was a great driver, but his tactics were dubious at best and downright dangerous on occasions, so his legacy is flawed. The point I was trying to make is that none of this kind of behaviour is acceptable from anyone, and should not be seen as such. You cannot justify it purely because someone else got away with it.

#1163 Longtimefan

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 12:27

F1 used to be a sport for men with guts and huge balls.

now its a very VERY faded shadow of its former self.. most drivers are gutless, whiny, moaning, spoilt and pampered these days.





#1164 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 12:32

Thats the problem I have with Shumis action yesterday. Squeeze? Sure. But leave a cars width to the wall for the other driver.

joke or not but he actually took your "advice" literally and left just a car's width. nothing more, nothing less

#1165 Brandz07

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 12:33

F1 used to be a sport for men with guts and huge balls.

now its a very VERY faded shadow of its former self.. most drivers are gutless, whiny, moaning, spoilt and pampered these days.


thats the media for you.

#1166 Cr0aker

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 12:35

If you punch me in the face and I don't run away, is it my fault when you punch me in the face again?


Yes.

#1167 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 12:36

Someone who texted into the BBC forum got it spot on:

"MS used to be known for being dominant and uncompromising, now he's just slow and dangerous"

These moves haven't changed my opinion of him as a racer. He has never been a good racer, he won his first championship by taking Damon Hill off and tried it again but failed against JV.

Martin Brundle more or less said if Michael was a fair driver he'd have one less title and infinitely more respect. True words IMO.

#1168 hotstickyslick

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 12:45

F1 used to be a sport for men with guts and huge balls.

now its a very VERY faded shadow of its former self.. most drivers are gutless, whiny, moaning, spoilt and pampered these days.

Rose-tinted glasses m'fraid.

#1169 Watkins74

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 12:50

There is no logic. Both have had disgusting behaviour on the track. Suzuka 1990 still ranks the worst out of the both of them for me.

:up:

Even the photographers located at the end of the straight said Senna never lifted. Senna did not even get a penalty. 20 years later I am stilled stunned by that incident.


#1170 JPW

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 12:51

Martin Brundle more or less said if Michael was a fair driver he'd have one less title and infinitely more respect. True words IMO.

Personally I don't think big Schumi cares for the respect of an also ran in F1 and commenter to the UK masses like Brundle or about that of a whiner like Rubens Barrichello. You know ex-teammates who get their *rse handed to them hardly make for objective opinions.

He races hard and on the edge like he always did, I've no problem with that. :up:

#1171 Gareth

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 12:52

Dodgins' article (subecribers only) is pretty critical of Schumacher: http://www.autosport...cle.php/id/2971

It was good to see something finally being done but you still can't help but think that Schumacher escaped lightly. Rubens was absolutely right with his description. It truly was, horrible.


Photo embedded in the article is here (non subscribers can view it) : http://www.autosport...php/id/13256894

#1172 rossifumi46

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 12:56

Schmacher should be banned from racing full stop before he kills someone :mad:

#1173 BRG

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 12:58

Personally I don't think big Schumi cares for the respect of an also ran in F1 and commenter to the UK masses like Brundle or about that of a whiner like Rubens Barrichello.

Nor about your respect or mine or anyone else's. When you are a sociopath like him, you are certain that you are right and that everyone else is wrong.

Little Schumi has earned the disdain of all true motorsport fans. He may not care, but he remains a poor excuse for a human being and yesterday just proved that he has learnt nothing.

#1174 SimMaker

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 13:01

joke or not but he actually took your "advice" literally and left just a car's width. nothing more, nothing less


Sorry, my mistake, I meant track edge. The white line. The way he moved, he pushed Bari right off the track. Hami did something similar at Monza a year or so back, though then I think he was just blind and did'nt see whoever it was.

#1175 JPW

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 13:05

Nor about your respect or mine or anyone else's. When you are a sociopath like him, you are certain that you are right and that everyone else is wrong.

Little Schumi has earned the disdain of all true motorsport fans. He may not care, but he remains a poor excuse for a human being and yesterday just proved that he has learnt nothing.

My, my getting mighty worked-up aren't you about big Schumi? "Sociopath", "poor excuse for a human being" hilarious......... :lol:

Only thing that really happened that in this game called Formula 1 he closed the door on a fellow competitor, they didn't touch, nobody crashed and it made for entertaining TV.

Only victim; Rubens' underwear  ;)

#1176 valachus

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 13:10

Steve McQueen salutes the girly fans of F1 debating the sins of Schumacher's driving style:
Posted Image

The Move made my blood freeze and my pulse jump 200%. I salute and honor both Schumacher and Barrichello for the battle of yesterday's race. As should the owners of Hungaroring, the scene goes up there with Piquet's move on Senna at the same track, in the hall of F1 eternal fame. Which is good, the stuff of legends.

"A miss is as good as a mile" (Edmund Irvine to Ayrton Senna da Silva, as quoted in "Stuff F1 Legends said")


#1177 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 13:10

Sorry, my mistake, I meant track edge. The white line. The way he moved, he pushed Bari right off the track. Hami did something similar at Monza a year or so back, though then I think he was just blind and did'nt see whoever it was.

I agree with this, it should be a rule, under no circumstances you should be allowed to push like that
problem is, until now, it was allowed. you can argue it's different, but pushing was allowed. vettel did in germany and it looked ugly as hell also

this kind of stuff needs to end, allow them to make 1 move but don't push outside of the track. leave 1 car's width there..like webber did in turkey...obviously, pray you're not racing vettel

#1178 hotstickyslick

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 13:18

My, my getting mighty worked-up aren't you about big Schumi? "Sociopath", "poor excuse for a human being" hilarious......... :lol:

So we assume you don't agree then? Hmm, wonder why.;)

Only thing that really happened that in this game called Formula 1 he closed the door on a fellow competitor, they didn't touch, nobody crashed and it made for entertaining TV.

So that makes it okay? You can drive like an imbecile as long as no one crashes. Such a responsible notion. ;)

Only victim; Rubens' underwear ;)

The spoiled brat's earned himself a ten-place grid penalty while Rubens earned himself a championship point. Who's the victim?;)

Edited by hotstickyslick, 02 August 2010 - 13:19.


#1179 Slartibartfast

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 13:20

Only victim; Rubens' underwear ;)

Why, did it run out of space to hold his balls?

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#1180 SkorbiF1

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 13:21

How about enough room to be deemed safe, would that be an option. This argument, that nothing happened and that there was 'enough room, obviously', is an extraordinary poor one.

What would you see as safe enough? 1 meter extra space?
Or maybe they should ban all defensive driving?

#1181 Boing 2

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 13:22

What?!? Are you kiddin us?
Senna's dirty move could involve all the people behind the pitwall, causing a massacre. Joe Ramirez (good friend of Senna) called it a horrible move. There was no escape for Prost, cuz the track ended at the wall. As someone else already said, Schumi pushed Barrichello off the track: but Senna didn't, cuz there was no off-track space between the track and the wall. And yet, Schumi got a penalty and Senna did get a free pass, as usual.


What schumacher did was much worse.

Posted Image

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#1182 A Wheel Nut

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 13:23

What schumacher did was much worse.

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Certainly was, given the safety those cars in the 80s had! Much worse to put someone in the wall now, where drivers walk away from massive accidents all the time!

#1183 SimMaker

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 13:23

Rights and wrongs aside.

I wonder how the psycology of all this pans out.

I mean, how does MSC feel now. He's had a pretty bad season (I was as excited as any about his retuirn to F1, wanted/want to see him to do well), he seems to be going backwards at the moment, he gets lapped by half the field, and then, in one fight where he probably thought "This boy I can handle, have done for years at Ferrari", and then Bari keeps his foot in, takes the place, and to top it all, MSC goes and gets a 10 place grid drop and pretty much universal slating in the press, from other drivers, teams, fans...etc.

How much can he take? I dare say "a lot". But this must have some baring on his mind.

#1184 Urawa

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 13:26

http://www.bild.de/B...t=13501318.html

http://translate.goo...t...l=&ie=UTF-8

Michael says sorry

#1185 hotstickyslick

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 13:29

Ah, so he apologises. I suppose all the defenders of his dangerous driving will go away now.

#1186 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 13:31

Rights and wrongs aside.

I wonder how the psycology of all this pans out.

I mean, how does MSC feel now. He's had a pretty bad season (I was as excited as any about his retuirn to F1, wanted/want to see him to do well), he seems to be going backwards at the moment, he gets lapped by half the field, and then, in one fight where he probably thought "This boy I can handle, have done for years at Ferrari", and then Bari keeps his foot in, takes the place, and to top it all, MSC goes and gets a 10 place grid drop and pretty much universal slating in the press, from other drivers, teams, fans...etc.

How much can he take? I dare say "a lot". But this must have some baring on his mind.

first of all he got lapped by webber, not half of the field
second, rubens was a lot quicker, even if hungaroring, tyre difference is huge. remember KK vs FA and Buemi(was it Buemi?).
he tried hard, too hard in my book, but that's him.
he won't change and I accept that. the rules should outlaw this type of behaviour but I don't expect Michael to be different as long as they allow him to

#1187 SimMaker

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 13:32

http://www.bild.de/B...t=13501318.html

http://translate.goo...t...l=&ie=UTF-8

Michael says sorry


Good boy. :)

Looking at what other posters have said, I suppose we can say he left a cars width, but maybe the rule makers need to be firm, and say a cars width to the white line/track edge, not the wall. Though in Monaco, there is'nt much difference.

Hope people are not going to keep fighting over this, or this is going to be one miserable place for the next few weeks.

Group Hug. :smoking:

#1188 Paco

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 13:35

Seriously.. what the hell is wrong with everyone.

Michael squeezed Rubens enough to give him the crap of his life but hey.. Michael gave him enough room and they didn't even touch!!!!!

So where-in lies the issue????

Are pilots suppose to just move over and let the fast guy buy all the time without trying to defend their position. Hell, people gave Michael crap for giving up too much room during a blue flag pass.

Too little room.. too easy of a pass.. yadda yadda.

Frankly. I like them dueling it out on track vs. the boardroom.

#1189 Jazza

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 13:37

The senna block was dirty because he reacted to Prost pulling out of the slipstream, which could have caused Prost to smash into the back of him. The wall wasn't the real issue, it was probably an attempt to make Prost lift. When Prost didn't lift, senna let him go.

MS's move was to squish RB into the wall, and when that didn't work, tried to hang him out on the grass.

The senna move was dirty and dangerous. The MS move was simply moronic even if they were in a tintop.

#1190 JPW

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 13:38

Steve McQueen salutes the girly fans of F1 debating the sins of Schumacher's driving style:
Posted Image

LOL good one :up:

Smart move by PR team Schumacher, say the stewards were right and that of course that intention was never to endanger Rubens and that in retrospect the move was harsh. Storm in a teacup and all blows over, 4 weeks holiday :lol:

Now the real question is would he do it again, don't think many drivers will go and find out themselves.  ;)

#1191 Paco

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 13:39

first of all he got lapped by webber, not half of the field
second, rubens was a lot quicker, even if hungaroring, tyre difference is huge. remember KK vs FA and Buemi(was it Buemi?).
he tried hard, too hard in my book, but that's him.
he won't change and I accept that. the rules should outlaw this type of behaviour but I don't expect Michael to be different as long as they allow him to


Like pilots don't have enough rules and crap to consider on track then now bringing out a yard stick with them, pull over... make sure there is enough room, get back in, let the guy go by with 1 car width.

It's up the driver in behind to execute a pass by making sure he gets ahead or wheel to wheel. If doesn't get at least even, then the rear driver is almost certainly at fault for taking an unneeded risk.

Pretty simple. No added rules required. The driver infront can only make one change of direction. Good rule. That is all that is required. It's up the guy in back to make it stick. If he gets squeezed out, so be it. Whether is a wall, gravel or grass.

#1192 Gareth

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 13:40

Link to Schumacher's web page: http://www.michael-s...w...664&lang=de

The "apology" is on the German language section of the site but not yet the English.

#1193 hotstickyslick

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 13:40

Seriously.. what the hell is wrong with everyone.

Michael squeezed Rubens enough to give him the crap of his life but hey.. Michael gave him enough room and they didn't even touch!!!!!

So where-in lies the issue????

Are pilots suppose to just move over and let the fast guy buy all the time without trying to defend their position. Hell, people gave Michael crap for giving up too much room during a blue flag pass.

Too little room.. too easy of a pass.. yadda yadda.

Frankly. I like them dueling it out on track vs. the boardroom.

Use your brain. The issue here is the fact there was a huge risk of a massive shunt.

#1194 Rich

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 13:43

thats the media for you.


What does the media have to do with drivers being unhappy about a dangerous move?

#1195 SimMaker

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 13:43

Like pilots don't have enough rules and crap to consider on track then now bringing out a yard stick with them, pull over... make sure there is enough room, get back in, let the guy go by with 1 car width.

It's up the driver in behind to execute a pass by making sure he gets ahead or wheel to wheel. If doesn't get at least even, then the rear driver is almost certainly at fault for taking an unneeded risk.

Pretty simple. No added rules required. The driver infront can only make one change of direction. Good rule. That is all that is required. It's up the guy in back to make it stick. If he gets squeezed out, so be it. Whether is a wall, gravel or grass.


So, due to such tactics, we will never see overtaking again in F1, as people will just run the overtaker off the track?

Toughen up the side pods, and when the overtaker has his front wheels along side, send him into the trees?

Go play your playstation.

Edited by SimMaker, 02 August 2010 - 13:43.


#1196 Birelman

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 13:43

Use your brain. The issue here is the fact there was a huge risk of a massive shunt.

You know what he's gonna say to that...."racing is dangerous" lol like we didn't know

#1197 Henrik B

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 13:43

Michael squeezed Rubens enough to give him the crap of his life but hey.. Michael gave him enough room and they didn't even touch!!!!!


I'm pretty sure there are tyre marks on that wall. Look at the picture Gareth linked to.

#1198 Diablobb81

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 13:48

Use your brain. The issue here is the fact there was a huge risk of a massive shunt.


There is a huge risk in every fight. I think the issue is that Micheal increased the risk. But since there is a big risk in every fight, how much Schumi is wrong is just an subjective opinion. 10 cm space for Barri is wrong, 20cm space in another fight is right?

"You know what he's gonna say to that...."racing is dangerous" lol like we didn't know "

So because you know, you ignore it as a valid point?

Edited by Diablobb81, 02 August 2010 - 13:50.


#1199 Birelman

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 13:51

There is a huge risk in every fight. I think the issue is that Micheal increased the risk. But since there is a big risk in every fight, how much Schumi is wrong is just an subjective opinion. 10 cm space for Barri is wrong, 20cm space in another fight is right?

That's probably a good question. There really is no rule for this. I guess that's where common sense kicks in, taking into account, the position on the track, travelling speeds, angles, etc.

The fact that racing is dangerous is probably the biggest issue here, so, no, I don't ignore it. It's dangerous, and with everything these drivers do out there, that danger is increased. Hoewever, there's no need to push the boundaries of that danger carelessly and irresponsably. Specially not by 2 aging drivers with nothing to gain, and their whole lives ahead of them. I sai before that, these 2 guys are, 1 is nearing retirement, and the other is quasi-retired, and it would have been a sad story if one or both had gotten hurt over 10th place in a meaningless race, as opposed to 2 young gladiators bueling it out for the world championship at the height of their careers. It's just stupid.

Edited by Birelman, 02 August 2010 - 13:55.


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#1200 hotstickyslick

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 13:54

There is a huge risk in every fight. I think the issue is that Micheal increased the risk. But since there is a big risk in every fight, how much Schumi is wrong is just an subjective opinion. 10 cm space for Barri is wrong, 20cm space in another fight is right?

Duh. So why increase the risk unnecessarily?

Barrichello went onto the grass because he was squeezed so much, that's impeding.