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Barrichello/Schumacher Incident


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#1201 Diablobb81

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 13:54

That's probably a good question. There really is no rule for this. I guess that's where common sense kicks in, taking into account, the position on the track, travelling speeds, angles, etc.


And i think that Schumi was wrong. It was just too tight.

But the exaggerated conclusions (ban, retirement, murder etc.) are only based on subjectivity and personal hatred against the driver itself.


Edited by Diablobb81, 02 August 2010 - 13:56.


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#1202 Birelman

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 13:59

And i think that Schumi was wrong. It was just too tight.

But the exaggerated conclusions (ban, retirement, murder etc.) are only based on subjectivity and personal hatred against the driver itself.

LOL well, ban? maybe if it's 1 race, retirement? puhleeeeease! murder? that's just jokes man! It's more like suicide/murder :)

#1203 hotstickyslick

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 14:00

And i think that Schumi was wrong. It was just too tight.

But the exaggerated conclusions (ban, retirement, murder etc.) are only based on subjectivity and personal hatred against the driver itself.

And if he (MS) slightly overestimated his own spatial awareness and caused a massive accident you think calls for a race ban would be merely down to such a thing as hatred?

#1204 Gareth

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 14:02

Seriously.. what the hell is wrong with everyone.

Michael squeezed Rubens enough to give him the crap of his life but hey.. Michael gave him enough room and they didn't even touch!!!!!

So where-in lies the issue????

Are pilots suppose to just move over and let the fast guy buy all the time without trying to defend their position. Hell, people gave Michael crap for giving up too much room during a blue flag pass.

Too little room.. too easy of a pass.. yadda yadda.

Frankly. I like them dueling it out on track vs. the boardroom.

I like duelling on track too, but fairly.

And what was the purpose here of Michael's squeeze? He wanted to make it difficult for Rubens and make the entry to T1 as tough as possible. Absolutely fair goals and part of defending in F1 - I like this. I want to see drivers defending with these goals in mind. So all good with me up to this point.

The point where I diverge: what extra was gained by Schumcher cutting things as fine as he did - putting Rubens 1mm away from the wall rather than 1m? The difference to the goals I mentioned above (compromising Rubens' T1 entrance) is minimal. Put Rubens 1m to the left and he's having an infintesimally small easier time. It's nothing to the racing.

It is, however, huge for the risk involved. So to me the move goes from being an attempt to make life as difficult as possible for the passing driver legitimately to making it as difficult as possible for him and trying to intimidate him into fearing a crash. I have no respect for the latter part.

Had Schumcaher given a bit of room for error, I would have said "good stuff, hard racing". In giving absolutely no room for error, I think he pushed it too far.

He said to the bbc himself that the chain of events was caused by him missing the apex by 5cm on the final corner. If he'd cocked that move up by 5cm, things would have been pretty bad. As he admits himself, he can't drive 100% of the time with the level of precision that cutting things that fine demands. So cutting things that fine is not, IMO, acceptable.

#1205 Nonesuch

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 14:05

Dodgins' article (subecribers only) is pretty critical of Schumacher: http://www.autosport...cle.php/id/2971

As is Auto Motor und Sport, one of Germany's leading automobile magazines, on their website. Their driver ratings for the Hungarian Grand Prix are headlined 'Fahrernoten GP Ungarn: Schumacher-Anschlag auf Barrichello', or 'Driver ratings Hungary: Schumacher's assault on Barrichello'. The article goes on to rate Schumacher's weekend with a 'Note 1/10', which needs little translation, and concludes that: 'Im Rennen fährt er als Zehnter wacker mit, bis Barrichello im Rückspiegel auftaucht. Sorry, aber wie er den Williams-Piloten bei 290 km/h in die Mauer gedrückt hat, das war ein Anschlag', or 'He drove spiritedly in tenth position during the race, until Barrichello appeared in his rearview mirror. Sorry, but how he pushed the Williams driver into the wall at 290km/h, that is an assault'.

#1206 BRG

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 14:11

My, my getting mighty worked-up aren't you about big Schumi? "Sociopath", "poor excuse for a human being" hilarious......... :lol:

Those were the terms I used after I had cooled down a bit. You should have seen the first draft before my legal advisers had a go at it.

#1207 Wout

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 14:16

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/85828

"I wanted to make it hard for him to pass me. I clearly showed him that I didn't want to let him pass but... I wasn't seeking to endanger him with my move. If he feels I was then I'm sorry, this wasn't my intention."

After the race he said he moved to the right, so Rubens could easily pass on the left. Now he admits he was fighting for position and did it on purpose. Liar.

#1208 valachus

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 14:20

As is Auto Motor und Sport, one of Germany's leading automobile magazines, on their website. Their driver ratings for the Hungarian Grand Prix are headlined 'Fahrernoten GP Ungarn: Schumacher-Anschlag auf Barrichello', or 'Driver ratings Hungary: Schumacher's assault on Barrichello'. The article goes on to rate Schumacher's weekend with a 'Note 1/10', which needs little translation, and concludes that: 'Im Rennen fährt er als Zehnter wacker mit, bis Barrichello im Rückspiegel auftaucht. Sorry, aber wie er den Williams-Piloten bei 290 km/h in die Mauer gedrückt hat, das war ein Anschlag', or 'He drove spiritedly in tenth position during the race, until Barrichello appeared in his rearview mirror. Sorry, but how he pushed the Williams driver into the wall at 290km/h, that is an assault'.


LOL. I'm sure that nobody will believe me but here goes: after reading this, my first thought was: that magazine must have a massive female audience target. Click on the link and behold, right next to the article, the biggest ad in the whole page: "Be a Star! Glanzende Mode Highlights ab 14.90 (Euros). Bon prix, it's me" * notice the nice pinkish hue on that advert (I'm nuance illiterate I think).

Edited by valachus, 02 August 2010 - 14:22.


#1209 eoin

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 14:21

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/85828


After the race he said he moved to the right, so Rubens could easily pass on the left. Now he admits he was fighting for position and did it on purpose. Liar.


:lol:
Stop making crap up.

The guy was in the wrong, he got punished, has admitted he was wrong and has apologised- move on.


#1210 zooropa21

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 14:24

Schumacher making sure today's F1 contingent remembers why his record setting career is also tarnished by his pathetic racing antics.

#1211 Diablobb81

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 14:25

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/85828


After the race he said he moved to the right, so Rubens could easily pass on the left. Now he admits he was fighting for position and did it on purpose. Liar.


This is a mistranslation by autosport.

"ich zeigte ihm auch deutlich, dass ich ihn innen nicht vorbei lassen wollte,"

I showed him that i didn't want to allow him to pass me on the inside.

Edited by Diablobb81, 02 August 2010 - 14:26.


#1212 arknor

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 14:29

Schumacher making sure today's F1 contingent remembers why his record setting career is also tarnished by his pathetic racing antics.

yup just like many before him such as senna

#1213 Pine

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 14:30

I am a Schumacher hater, been one since 1994 and will always be one.
I don't think the move on Barrichello yesterday was illegal. Schumacher started moving to the right when Barrichello was still behind him, and he kept moving right after Barrichello went into this ever-shrinking gap. I guess Schumacher should have moved back left a fraction of a second earlier so that Barrichello wouldn't have to get on the grass, but that's it.
I agree it was scary, must have been absolutely terrifying for Barrichello there, and it definitely wasn't very gentleman-like piece of racing, but I don't think it was illegal.

#1214 frp

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 14:38

This is a mistranslation by autosport.

"ich zeigte ihm auch deutlich, dass ich ihn innen nicht vorbei lassen wollte,"

I showed him that i didn't want to allow him to pass me on the inside.

But it can clearly be seen on the footage that Schumacher moved to the centre of the track after his slow exit from the final corner, then watched his mirrors to see which side Barrichello was going to pass, and then moved the same way. If Rubens had gone to the outside, then Michael would have put him onto the grass. After having run wide at the apex, Schumacher's exit speed was such that his only option to prevent being overtaken was to push the other driver off.

#1215 jack_rabbit

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 14:38

I wanted to make it hard for him to pass me. I clearly showed him that I didn't want to let him pass but... I wasn't seeking to endanger him with my move. If he feels I was then I'm sorry, this wasn't my intention


BS !

Edited by jack_rabbit, 02 August 2010 - 14:39.


#1216 Bloggsworth

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 14:47

and lifting off was not an option..why exactly?


They were racing, the idea is to beat the others, but not by driving dangerously as Schumacher did.

#1217 Disgrace

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 14:48

He refused to back down to Schumacher's illegal bully boy tactics.

You call that hot headed. I think it was brave.

Perhaps this is because I like people who don't back down to bullies whereas you don't like it when people stand up to bullies?


Massive cojones for a man with a young family, a reason which arguably ended the likes of Hakkinens career.

Edited by Disgrace, 02 August 2010 - 14:49.


#1218 bauss

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 14:52

atleast Schumi is man enough to admit he went over the line.

These things sometime happen in racing, it is important though for the racer to hold his hands up and say I was at fault. When u commit a move like that and think it was totally ok, thats when its worrying, cos that says u have no qualms doing it the next time... and the next time, the racing world might not be so lucky.

#1219 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 14:55

Edmund Irvine


I always thought Eddie was short for Edward. Lives and learns!

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#1220 Simon Says

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 15:03

Which other driver pushes so many other drivers off the track. This normally doesn't happen in racing and shouldn't happen.

MS clearly pushed Rubens over the white line into the pit exit and was on the grass. MS did it also to Kubica, so it's not the first time this season.

If the swerving ended before Rubens was forced off the track, no problem. But MS went too far. And it was extremely close to a major accident.

Edited by Simon Says, 02 August 2010 - 15:05.


#1221 SimMaker

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 15:07

atleast Schumi is man enough to admit he went over the line.

These things sometime happen in racing, it is important though for the racer to hold his hands up and say I was at fault. When u commit a move like that and think it was totally ok, thats when its worrying, cos that says u have no qualms doing it the next time... and the next time, the racing world might not be so lucky.


Agree.

He screwed up, got punished, and has now apologised.

Case closed. No grudges need be taken forward.

#1222 Bloggsworth

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 15:08

Seriously.. what the hell is wrong with everyone.

Michael squeezed Rubens enough to give him the crap of his life but hey.. Michael gave him enough room and they didn't even touch!!!!!

So where-in lies the issue????

Are pilots suppose to just move over and let the fast guy buy all the time without trying to defend their position. Hell, people gave Michael crap for giving up too much room during a blue flag pass.

Too little room.. too easy of a pass.. yadda yadda.

Frankly. I like them dueling it out on track vs. the boardroom.


And exactly how much open wheeled racing have you done?

If someone had done that to me, even I (who my wife describes as so laid back as to make David Gower look hyperactive), would have seriously considered walking down the pit lane for a quiet conversation... I played rugby for ten years without feeling the need to thump anyone, I would have seriously considered thumping Schumacher yesterday.

Edited by Bloggsworth, 02 August 2010 - 15:08.


#1223 Boing 2

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 15:39

Now the real question is would he do it again, don't think many drivers will go and find out themselves. ;)



Don't think many need to, most of them only pass him when they're lapping him :rotfl:

#1224 ivand911

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 15:42

Don't think many need to, most of them only pass him when they're lapping him :rotfl:

Did Michael remember how many time he lapped them before? :rotfl: And RBR car can lap even Ferrari like they did with McLaren.

Edited by ivand911, 02 August 2010 - 15:43.


#1225 SimMaker

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 15:43

Did Michael remember how many time he lapped them before? :rotfl:


How many of the current field has Shumi lapped then?



#1226 Birelman

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 15:44

Agree.

He screwed up, got punished, and has now apologised.

Case closed. No grudges need be taken forward.

That sux! What the hell are we supposed to do in the next 4 weeks then? group hug? lol

#1227 Paco

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 15:47

As for his apology.. it wasn't that he felt he was wrong or his approach was wrong.. only that if Rubens felt Michael went to far.. he apologizes for that as it wasn't his intent. Duh..

He's explained that the tires were quite off and sliding so he probably wasn't in the extact space he wanted to be in but still, this move was seriously much less of an issue then Rubens throwing shit onto the track for which he didn't even get a citation, much less a warning or penalty!

Just hard racing IMO.

I personally believe people have gotten so use to processional races the last few years that people forget what it means to go racing. At least Nascar allows bumps etc and even Indycar allows much more wheel to wheel racing. Michael races a veteran hard and poor cry baby Rubens ends up making a specticle of it all...



#1228 MarkWRX

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 15:54

His "apology" wasn't one - he said: "I wanted to make it hard for him to pass me. I clearly showed him that I didn't want to let him pass but... I wasn't seeking to endanger him with my move. If he feels I was then I'm sorry, this wasn't my intention." So he's saying, in his holier-than-thou manner, 'If Ruben's is such a coward that he felt that my move was dangerous, then I am sorry.'

What Schumacher doesn't seem to understand is that the majority of people who saw that move felt it was dangerous and unsporting. And, regardless of the Autosport headline, he didn't apologize to Rubens - he simply posted something on his own website. Apologizing to Rubens would mean Schumacher walking up to Rubens, looking him in the eyes and saying "That move I pulled was desperate and it was wrong and I apologize." Schumacher will never do that.

#1229 cheapracer

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 15:58

... trying to intimidate him into fearing a crash. I have no respect for the latter part.

Had Schumcaher given a bit of room for error, I would have said "good stuff, hard racing". In giving absolutely no room for error, I think he pushed it too far.


Respect or not it's not a gentleman's race series nor has been since the 70's and it happens all the time around race tracks all over the world, Rubens only proved to me today that he actually still belongs in F1. I think he probably should have backed out of it though.

The squeeze was too harsh which leads me to wonder if he knew how much he squeezed, also did the crappy mirror issue have a part in it? - these things happen pretty darn quickly and he may well have erred on the wrong side. I actually expect MS may have gotten a surprise himself when he saw the replay.

By no means support for MS on this one but I have also seen accusations at drivers who are to weak to defend as well, so theres a view from both sides of the fence.

Anyway, lots of words will get thrown about but the problem still lay in the unrealistic difficulty of passing in F1 that raises the need for Rubens and others to attempt desperate moves.


#1230 TT6

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 15:59

atleast Schumi is man enough to admit he went over the line.


Actually I think he did not admit that. Merely it was a elegant double insult disguised as an apology.

Edited by TT6, 02 August 2010 - 16:01.


#1231 razno

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 15:59

If someone had done that to me, even I (who my wife describes as so laid back as to make David Gower look hyperactive), would have seriously considered walking down the pit lane for a quiet conversation... I played rugby for ten years without feeling the need to thump anyone, I would have seriously considered thumping Schumacher yesterday.



Well, i suspect if Rubens tried to do that - Schumacher would thump him down :)




#1232 4L3X

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 16:00

^^^ I agree with that. He needs to apologize like a man: I made a mistake, period. This "if he (RB) feels I was wrong" bit is very weak indeed.

#1233 ivand911

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 16:02

How many of the current field has Shumi lapped then?

Everyone who were in F1 before 2006. And some new guys this year.

Edited by ivand911, 02 August 2010 - 16:18.


#1234 cheapracer

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 16:11

Your argument is technically strong but right now MS is not popular (since he is not winning) and Rubens is the eternal underdog, so noone will agree with you. Prepare for flames.



:rotfl: - good one primer!



#1235 Tarzaan

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 16:11

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I still don"t know what Rubens think when he start his overtake from the right side. Ha has to know that the track will be tighter soon. But his crying works well, Shumi gets a penalty, the brazilian is the hero of the moment...


and Schumi has only his 7WDC... :cool:

#1236 Gareth

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 16:14

Once Rubens gets alongside, Schumacher has to (if he is to drive fairly) stop tightening that line to the point of Rubens being mm away from the wall. This Magnus Magnusson defence of "I've started so I'll finish" where you seem to think it's ok for Schumacher to say "I will drive towards the wall and, regardless of Rubens' position on track, will continue to drive towards the wall" just doesn't work.

#1237 Paco

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 16:14

^^^ I agree with that. He needs to apologize like a man: I made a mistake, period. This "if he (RB) feels I was wrong" bit is very weak indeed.


WHAT?

He said how he felt. Period. That's being more of a man then bs'ing the media with some fake apology.

How you or I feel about the move is immaterial to him. None of us where in either car at that moment in time.




#1238 cheapracer

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 16:16

Actually I think he did not admit that. Merely it was a elegant double insult disguised as an apology.


nah I have been just reading around (only saw the race just before) ....

"Immediately after the race yesterday I was still in the heat of it all, but after I looked again at the situation with Rubens I have to say that the stewards were correct with their judgement," he wrote. “The move I made against him was too hard.
“I didn’t want to endanger him with my manoeuvre. If he was left with this feeling then I am sorry as this was not my intention.”


.... at this level of sport thats clearly humbleness, don't expect more.



#1239 razno

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 16:18

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I still don"t know what Rubens think when he start his overtake from the right side. Ha has to know that the track will be tighter soon. But his crying works well, Shumi gets a penalty, the brazilian is the hero of the moment...


and Schumi has only his 7WDC... :cool:


Well, previous pictures wont do justice. Its seem that schumacher is steering right - toward the wall when Rubens come side to side. He positions his car to shrunk that gap and all he is doing is keep going straight.

However, i am MSC fan, but it was to hard. What he is trying to do is to make rubens go left, so he would go left too and defend. But he didnt execute it right. He allow rubens to squeeze betwen, and than try to run him out of space was just wrong...

Edited by razno, 02 August 2010 - 16:21.


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#1240 Paco

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 16:19

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I still don"t know what Rubens think when he start his overtake from the right side. Ha has to know that the track will be tighter soon. But his crying works well, Shumi gets a penalty, the brazilian is the hero of the moment...


and Schumi has only his 7WDC... :cool:


AWESOME PHOTO.

Michael ahead, pointing his car towards the outside corner and narrow track quickly... and Rubens crys about squeezing himself in there. What an idiot. But then again, he made it stick...

#1241 aditya-now

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 16:26

Actually I think he did not admit that. Merely it was a elegant double insult disguised as an apology.


And that´s always been the problem with Michael.

His "apology" goes in the way of "if Rubens thinks that I squeezed him unfairly than I apologize for that.
Making clear that according to Michael´s own view there was nothing outrageous in the move.

Which is why Michael is so beloved to most of us.


#1242 aditya-now

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 16:27

AWESOME PHOTO.

Michael ahead, pointing his car towards the outside corner and narrow track quickly... and Rubens crys about squeezing himself in there. What an idiot. But then again, he made it stick...


And that´s the point, Rubens made it stick. Mucho cojones.

No one in the field is impressed by Schumi´s antics anymore, as Webber said, everybody in the field is enjoying sticking it to the German.


#1243 SimMaker

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 16:27

That sux! What the hell are we supposed to do in the next 4 weeks then? group hug? lol


Hell, I dunno.

I don't know if I can take 4 weeks of driver bashing, fanboyism, and crawling ever deeper into the front wing of the RBs.

I'm one of the weird types. I'm not really in this for the drivers. Just glad to see them get home safe after a race. I'm in this for the cars, the whole thing amazes me, I like Airshows for similar reasons. One thing that really upsets though, is the actions of some of the fans.

All these drivers are highly skilled and brave, (well, except Yamamoto maybe :smoking: ) and they all have my respects. I just hate coming on here and seeing people rip each other to shreds over this or that. If the drivers acted like "we fans", then it would be murder out there.

I used to think F1 fans were above such nonsense. I used to think most fans were pretty level headed. My first GP snapped me out of that. Was there to take pictures for a sim I was working on. That was when I saw people crying next to the cars as they were wheeled in, people praying, kissing the cars, patting them (This was at Monaco, so when they took cars from the pits to the Paddock, its a chance to get close). On the Saturday night people were doing "laps" in their own cars (At 1mph in a mechanical caterpillar), peeling out, putting rubber down on their drivers grid slot....it was blooming mad.

"We" fans need to chill the hell out. Keep cool about these things. I utterly DREAD the next serious accident, as the Internet was not really around when Senna and Ratzenberger died. I just wonder how the sport will survive another fatality or worse still, a car going into the crowd (Monaco is a DUMB place to have cars doing 180+) Can you imagine what this place will be like when something like that happens. "Meltdown" is an overused phrase, but it would apply then I am sure. The "fans" themselves would rip the sport apart. Accusations of murder would no doubt be made, it would be horrible.

So, smack on the wrist for Shumi, 4 seconds of "greatness" for Bari that he will bore people to death with for ever, lets all learn from it and move on. Please god, not 4 more weeks of this....lol.

Come on, Group Hug. :smoking:

#1244 hotstickyslick

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 16:28

AWESOME PHOTO.

Michael ahead, pointing his car towards the outside corner and narrow track quickly... and Rubens crys about squeezing himself in there. What an idiot. But then again, he made it stick...

Michael ahead, on the LEFT. Apologises for his own recklessness, what more could you want?

#1245 cheapracer

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 16:37

It seems from some angles that Rubens was closer to the wall than required ...

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#1246 as65p

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 16:43

I think this one gives a better perspective:

My estimations:

[space Senna gave Prost on straight] = [space Prost gave Senna at the start] > [space Schumacher gave Rubens]


:up:  ;) I wasn't even going to bring up the similar crowding Prost gave Senna at the start (minus the wall).

#1247 SennaHolic

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 16:43

He should've put Rubens to the wall. :smoking:

#1248 razno

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 16:44

It seems from some angles that Rubens was closer to the wall than required ...


Its funny how schumacher look all time on the rubens. If rubens start to steer a little to the left i bet schumacher would to. He just played chicken with rubens...



#1249 Slartibartfast

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 16:45

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I still don"t know what Rubens think when he start his overtake from the right side. Ha has to know that the track will be tighter soon. But his crying works well, Shumi gets a penalty, the brazilian is the hero of the moment...


and Schumi has only his 7WDC... :cool:

Perspective

#1250 SimMaker

SimMaker
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Posted 02 August 2010 - 16:45

Its funny how schumacher look all time on the rubens. If rubens start to steer a little to the left i bet schumacher would to. He just played chicken with rubens...


And lost.