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Barrichello/Schumacher Incident


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#1401 stevvy1986

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 11:35

Pity it didn't happen, that black flag. A grid penalty isn't as harsh as a black flag (and seen as a hard penalty) given the fact that a unlucky fellow who needs an engine or gearbox ends up with a similar penalty if only for 5 places.


Fair point, but given the fact it was only a couple of laps from the end of the race, it just wasn't possible in all honesty. However, and this is just me being theoretical, had they black flagged him for it, I wonder if they'd have then been able to give him other penalties on top of the black flag (ie a grid penalty/race ban). Not suggesting he should then have been given extra penalties after the race, so don't take it that way, just wondering if had he been black flagged, would they be able to give him extra penalties.

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#1402 cheapracer

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 11:35

Pity it didn't happen, that black flag. A grid penalty isn't as harsh as a black flag (and seen as a hard penalty) given the fact that a unlucky fellow who needs an engine or gearbox ends up with a similar penalty if only for 5 places.

Henri


How do you figure Henri, MS would have got no points for 11th so what difference would a black flag make?

A 10 position grid drop almost assures of no points next race - looks like chalk and cheese to me.

Has any one mentioned Rubens whining for a black flag pre incident when MS was blocking totally fairly - WTF was that about?


#1403 pRy

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 11:39

Well a black flag is a very public punishment, far more so than a 10 place grid drop. It's like a red card in football. You're taken out of the race immediately. When was the last time they black flagged someone?

#1404 Jazza

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 11:39

How do you figure Henri, MS would have got no points for 11th so what difference would a black flag make?

A 10 position grid drop almost assures of no points next race - looks like chalk and cheese to me.

Has any one mentioned Rubens whining for a black flag pre incident when MS was blocking totally fairly - WTF was that about?


No... Because that never happened.

#1405 Gareth

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 11:39

Has any one mentioned Rubens whining for a black flag pre incident when MS was blocking totally fairly - WTF was that about?

I don't recall him asking for a black flag, although he was complaining that MS was making his move too late. I thought he was talking rubbish then (I also thought his "pick one line and stick with it" post race was rubbish too).

Still, he was right that the wall squeeze was too much. Whether he's whined before or since doesn't change that.

#1406 peroa

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 11:41

JPM in Indy?

#1407 as65p

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 11:43

I wonder how often this could have been repeated by these two drivers without any serious consequenses for in particular one of them as is suggested in the quote above.


:wave: Hi Henri!

I know this is your pet topic, already wondered when you'd show up.  ;)

I knew the picture you pointed too. Like any other pic of the Estoril '88 incident, if it doesn't convince you of the monumental difference to what we saw on Sunday, then nothing will. I do not wonder if Prost and Senna could have done that again without consequences, instead I remain quite convinced that they could.

Not much point discussing this futher between us, especially since you seem to have built a full-blooded virtual life upon deeming that incident the root of all evil in racing.

Apart from that, glad to see you're still around! :up:

#1408 stevvy1986

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 11:44

When was the last time they black flagged someone?


Massa and Fisichella for exiting the pits under a red light at Montreal 07. Montoya did the same thing at the same track in 05, and was also shown a black flag.

Edited by stevvy1986, 03 August 2010 - 11:45.


#1409 Sinister

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 11:46

Has any one mentioned Rubens whining for a black flag pre incident when MS was blocking totally fairly - WTF was that about?

Wasn't the "black-flag comment" after he was squeezed?

EDIT ~ good call Steevy, forgot about Massa and Fisi...

Edited by Sinister, 03 August 2010 - 11:48.


#1410 Galko877

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 11:48

Yes ,they challenge but why they cry after this? They have to say nothing special , tough fight, not to cry over radio.



Yeah. Rubens totally ruined it for himself by his whining. Without whining and moaning he could have been a hero for a day. But with the whining he reminded people of the crybaby he always was and that kind of annulled the ballsyness of his move.

As for MS. Was he reckless? Yeah. Although it's strange that while other drivers get reprimand after reprimand instead of real punishment, he always gets punished immediately (even when he shouldn't be punished, like in Monaco). And now Warwick says he should have been banned from one-two races? Oh dear! :rolleyes: So what about similarly dangerous moves by Webber and others in the past? Nobody said anything about those, let alone wanting to ban him from races or even give him grid penalties. But that's MS for you, he always has been polarizing and always will be. Like most really great and exciting drivers, BTW.

#1411 as65p

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 11:53

But that's MS for you, he always has been polarizing and always will be. Like most really great and exciting drivers, BTW.


Well, since this season the common (often also used on Senna) tag of "flawed genius" doesn't work anymore, because the genius part appears to have gone missing.

#1412 SimMaker

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 11:54

" (even when he shouldn't be punished, like in Monaco)"

Yer wat?

#1413 aditya-now

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 11:55

Pity it didn't happen, that black flag. A grid penalty isn't as harsh as a black flag (and seen as a hard penalty) given the fact that a unlucky fellow who needs an engine or gearbox ends up with a similar penalty if only for 5 places.

Henri


I am happy to agree with you, Henri, at this time.

A black flag would have been appropriate. This time. And also back when Senna nearly drove Prost into the pit wall. Strictness applied at the right time can prevent much worse transgressions later. Whereas, when one has been too lenient it is often an invitation for the transgressions to go even further.

In the present case, luckily, the public discussion is so strong, and the media storm is there around the whole planet, that Schumacher will definitely take a wiser course of action next time. Or so one would think.


#1414 stevvy1986

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 11:58

Wasn't the "black-flag comment" after he was squeezed?

EDIT ~ good call Steevy, forgot about Massa and Fisi...


The black flag comment was indeed only after the incident, not before. Also no worries, I knew there'd been some black flags at Montreal in recent years, but couldn't remember who or what year, but knew that'd been the only race to feature black flags in quite a while.

#1415 Jazza

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 12:00

I don't get why they don't use the half & half black and white flag more often. It seems to be either nothing or the black, which helps create these extreme situations because there is no warning till the line is crossed.

#1416 Henri Greuter

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 12:05

How do you figure Henri, MS would have got no points for 11th so what difference would a black flag make?

A 10 position grid drop almost assures of no points next race - looks like chalk and cheese to me.

Has any one mentioned Rubens whining for a black flag pre incident when MS was blocking totally fairly - WTF was that about?



as pRY already mentioned, a black flag is far more public. And far more lasting. Black flags are better remembered than grid penalties which appear ever so often for sesser serious incidents like changing the engine.
Black flags on the other hand are rather rare and that signals much stronger to the receiver that he has stepped beyond the borders.
Something MS certainly did.


Henri


#1417 Frans

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 12:08

seems his excuse to Rubens was an team order from Mercedes.

[end of transmission]

#1418 MCh000

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 12:09

The irony is that this overtaking will be remembered with Barrichello crying and Michael as usual being hard racer (I left him too much space). Barrichello missed an opportunity to present himself for history as smart and cool overtaker. No, he started to cry. What a pathetic Pamperchello. Jeeez, instead of saying that it was nothing special and that's how he fights, he reveals his "Michael complexes".

#1419 cheapracer

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 12:10

He did a smart move to appoligise to Rubens, one of the better moves he made in his carreer. (Am still waiting for the "sorry" to Damon and Jacques, but hey, ... some things will never change)

Schumi +1 :up:


It didn't bother Hill or Jaques who both owe apologies to MS if you come down to it, like Jones, Senna and others of the era they also could stick up for themselves, love both the interviews from JV after Jerez 1997 and Hungary 1997.





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#1420 Galko877

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 12:10

The irony is that this overtaking will be remembered with Barrichello crying and Michael as usual being hard racer (I left him too much space). Barrichello missed an opportunity to present himself for history as smart and cool overtaker. No, he started to cry. What a pathetic Pamperchello. Jeeez, instead of saying that it was nothing special and that's how he fights, he reveals his "Michael complexes".


+1 :up:

#1421 aditya-now

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 12:12

seems his excuse to Rubens was an team order from Mercedes.

[end of transmission]


Yeah, for Mercedes it becomes ever more difficult to control the negative fall-out of Schumacher´s second career.


#1422 Henri Greuter

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 12:16

:wave: Hi Henri!

I know this is your pet topic, already wondered when you'd show up. ;)

I knew the picture you pointed too. Like any other pic of the Estoril '88 incident, if it doesn't convince you of the monumental difference to what we saw on Sunday, then nothing will. I do not wonder if Prost and Senna could have done that again without consequences, instead I remain quite convinced that they could.

Not much point discussing this futher between us, especially since you seem to have built a full-blooded virtual life upon deeming that incident the root of all evil in racing.

Apart from that, glad to see you're still around! :up:



HI AS65P! :wave:

Not my pet topic, really not.
Yes, we disagree. But if you have the right to give your opinion, then so am I, or not?

Anyway good to see you back again and hear from you. Don't get me wrong, we are on the same side regarding MS/RB last Sunday.
And I do have a bit different manner of communicating with you, you have learned me a good lesson in that. Thanks.

By the way, if you ever find the time to go through the article I referred to, you might see what I mean. In all honesty, I would appreciate it, if you have read it, tell me what you think about it since I wrote it with the lessons I learned from you in mind.

Hey, nothing personal between us, only difference of opinions OK? (and because of that, on occasion some entertainment for the others out here ....) :up:


Henri






#1423 Jazza

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 12:18

The irony is that this overtaking will be remembered with Barrichello crying and Michael as usual being hard racer (I left him too much space). Barrichello missed an opportunity to present himself for history as smart and cool overtaker. No, he started to cry. What a pathetic Pamperchello. Jeeez, instead of saying that it was nothing special and that's how he fights, he reveals his "Michael complexes".


At least he didn't accuse anyone of trying to kill him. Or even worse, saying that they should have just got a gun if they are going to drive like that.

He may very well be a whinier, but at least he is not a dish it out but can't take it hypocritical tool.

#1424 aditya-now

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 12:19

HI AS65P! :wave:

Not my pet topic, really not.
Yes, we disagree. But if you have the right to give your opinion, then so am I, or not?

Anyway good to see you back again and hear from you. Don't get me wrong, we are on the same side regarding MS/RB last Sunday.
And I do have a bit different manner of communicating with you, you have learned me a good lesson in that. Thanks.

By the way, if you ever find the time to go through the article I referred to, you might see what I mean. In all honesty, I would appreciate it, if you have read it, tell me what you think about it since I wrote it with the lessons I learned from you in mind.

Hey, nothing personal between us, only difference of opinions OK? (and because of that, on occasion some entertainment for the others out here ....) :up:


Henri


Good old Henri has become an ambassador of peace lately. And it benefits the general atmosphere of the BB!

Good to know we all agree on MS/RB last Sunday.

#1425 cheapracer

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 12:23

as pRY already mentioned, a black flag is far more public. And far more lasting. Black flags are better remembered than grid penalties which appear ever so often for sesser serious incidents like changing the engine.
Black flags on the other hand are rather rare and that signals much stronger to the receiver that he has stepped beyond the borders.
Something MS certainly did.


Henri


You're dreaming, a black flag to a guy who has been through all the wars? :lol:




#1426 Imuhcs

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 12:23

Am I the only one not seeing the big deal in all this? This happens in racing, well it did back in the day when people actually raced...

#1427 hotstickyslick

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 12:25

Am I the only one not seeing the big deal in all this? This happens in racing, well it did back in the day when people actually raced...

When was that? :|

#1428 cheapracer

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 12:26

Yeah, for Mercedes it becomes ever more difficult to control the negative fall-out of Schumacher´s second career.


Seriously, that really is nothing more than a personal opinion.

Name the other drivers in F1 this year who are getting as much coverage for their sponsors...?




#1429 Henri Greuter

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 12:28

Good old Henri has become an ambassador of peace lately. And it benefits the general atmosphere of the BB!

Good to know we all agree on MS/RB last Sunday.



I prefer an objective discussion about hot topics with people who think exactly the opposite about ths subject as long as we argue in reason.
In reasonable discussions you might learn something you didn't know yet. Maybe it won't differ your opinion but it might make you understand things better.
I have learned a few lessons over here in that and I try to apply them.

Besides that, if you don't agree with someone on one item, that doesn't mean that you have to disagree with everything this person writes.


henri



#1430 SimMaker

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 12:41

Seriously, that really is nothing more than a personal opinion.

Name the other drivers in F1 this year who are getting as much coverage for their sponsors...?


Why not ask Renault how negative publicity can affect sponsors.

#1431 aditya-now

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 12:51

I prefer an objective discussion about hot topics with people who think exactly the opposite about ths subject as long as we argue in reason.
In reasonable discussions you might learn something you didn't know yet. Maybe it won't differ your opinion but it might make you understand things better.
I have learned a few lessons over here in that and I try to apply them.

Besides that, if you don't agree with someone on one item, that doesn't mean that you have to disagree with everything this person writes.


henri


Very well said, and this is what I applaud you for, Henri.

This BB can be a learning experience as well, and it is exactly because of people who can keep to a cultivated debate that that is possible.
I have learned from you, as well. Your article on the 1989 season has given me a different perspective - now I feel that Ayrton´s development as an individual would have benefitted from having been blackflagged right there at Estoril 1988. The further transgressions that were ever more compounding between Senna and Prost were just a result of that missed opportunity.

In the same way, if Michael would be shown the strictness of an immediate black flag it might change something in his on-track-behaviour. At least if you can teach an old dog new tricks.



#1432 Sakae

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 12:51

The irony is that this overtaking will be remembered with Barrichello crying and Michael as usual being hard racer (I left him too much space). Barrichello missed an opportunity to present himself for history as smart and cool overtaker. No, he started to cry. What a pathetic Pamperchello. Jeeez, instead of saying that it was nothing special and that's how he fights, he reveals his "Michael complexes".


My thought exactly. I would wet my pants, but for those guys it should be a day at the office, nothing less. It's just hysterics of anti-Schumacher league that is at its frenzy, and like hyenas are trying to go for kill. It's a shame.

#1433 aditya-now

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 12:54

My thought exactly. I would wet my pants, but for those guys it should be a day at the office, nothing less. It's just hysterics of anti-Schumacher league that is at its frenzy, and like hyenas are trying to go for kill. It's a shame.


I would rather say the undifferentiated opinion of the Schumacher apologists is a shame. I can give you that: you do resemble your idol. Stubborn and unrepentant. Congrats.

#1434 SimMaker

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 12:54

My thought exactly. I would wet my pants, but for those guys it should be a day at the office, nothing less. It's just hysterics of anti-Schumacher league that is at its frenzy, and like hyenas are trying to go for kill. It's a shame.


Do you include the stewards in that?

#1435 SennaHolic

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 12:54

I guess this incident has to be blown out of proportion, like everything else in F1.
It makes it juicy being the two oldest drivers in the field. MS tried to plant RB against the wall big deal,
stuff like this should happen more often.

#1436 aditya-now

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 12:56

I would rather say the undifferentiated opinion of the Schumacher apologists is a shame. I can give you that: you do resemble your idol. Stubborn and unrepentant. Congrats.


On second thoughts: your idol at least apologized. You guys are still at bashing people who fear for life of drivers and audience alike. If that incident would have become an accident, it could have been catastrophic. Luckily they kept it on the road.


#1437 Buttoneer

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 12:57

It's just hysterics of anti-Schumacher league

Not so easy to dismiss these arguments, I'm afraid, when there are many pro-Schumacher posters who have also condemned the move and Schumacher himself has apologised. It's a pretty shoddy argument you have there when all that's left is to denigrate those who disagree with you.

Schumacher has apologised for the move. He considered it went beyond what was acceptable in F1 today even if we can all point to stuff from 20 years ago that was 'worse' or 'comparable'.

Isn't it about time the subject was dropped and you cleaned up your wet pants?

#1438 SimMaker

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 12:57

I guess this incident has to be blown out of proportion, like everything else in F1.
It makes it juicy being the two oldest drivers in the field. MS tried to plant RB against the wall big deal,
stuff like this should happen more often.


Your hero hit a wall.

You want to see more blood on the track??

Edited by SimMaker, 03 August 2010 - 12:58.


#1439 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 13:00

With more time, Warwick says Schumacher may have been DQd from the race.

http://news.bbc.co.u...one/8880167.stm

Had MS been on for points I wouldve prefered the DQ but as he finished out of the points the 10 place grid drop at Spa becomes a bigger penalty in racing terms. Schumi is gonna be starting 18th at best at Spa IMO.

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#1440 Rob

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 13:03

I guess this incident has to be blown out of proportion, like everything else in F1.
It makes it juicy being the two oldest drivers in the field. MS tried to plant RB against the wall big deal,
stuff like this should happen more often.


I don't know about you but I don't want to see another fatality in the sport.

#1441 Watkins74

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 13:05

I thought Schumacher went to far but a black flag would be going to far as well. A 10 second pit penalty is what I would have choosen.

Not to get to deep here but the decline of Schumacher reflects life. When your on top and have the power you get away with things. When you slip and show weakness everyone pounces on you. Neither one is really right, but that's the way it often is.

#1442 Kovalonso

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 13:05

What does a Black Flag means to a Pirate ? Congratulations ?

Schu Lee was banned from the Villeneuve's WDC championship - the worse punishment ever - and it changed nothing.

#1443 cheapracer

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 13:12

When was that? :|


Google is your friend, find the hard drivers of F1, GV, Pironi, Jones, Prost, Senna, Alesi, Mansell, Piquet, Hunt to mention a few.... around the late 70's to early 90's was a great era for men who drank beer or scotch from a cracked dirty glass with a hair in it.


#1444 AlainProstX

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 13:15

Google is your friend, find the hard drivers of F1, GV, Pironi, Jones, Prost, Senna, Alesi, Mansell, Piquet, Hunt to mention a few.... around the late 70's to early 90's was a great era for men who drank beer or scotch from a cracked dirty glass with a hair in it.


And even during those macho times the drivers knew that dragging the opponent into a concrete wall would end in a fatal crash.

Something your hero Michael Dumbmaker forgot last Sunday.

#1445 cheapracer

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 13:17

Why not ask Renault how negative publicity can affect sponsors.


A race incident can not compare to a scandal, your on the wrong track. I never saw sponsors running from Senna, the opposite in fact.


#1446 Gareth

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 13:18

My thought exactly. I would wet my pants, but for those guys it should be a day at the office, nothing less. It's just hysterics of anti-Schumacher league that is at its frenzy, and like hyenas are trying to go for kill. It's a shame.

I think Schumacher's brilliant. One of my 3 favourite drivers of all time.

I think his move on Sunday was disgraceful.

#1447 man

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 13:21

Google is your friend, find the hard drivers of F1, GV, Pironi, Jones, Prost, Senna, Alesi, Mansell, Piquet, Hunt to mention a few.... around the late 70's to early 90's was a great era for men who drank beer or scotch from a cracked dirty glass with a hair in it.


Ask Rosberg what he thinks of your idol. Keke that is. And you could use google to find quote from Rosberg of Schumacher before his son even entered F1. Keke was one of the hardest drivers of yesteryear and he has a very low opinion of Tyson...I mean M Schumacher. ;-)

#1448 Henrytheeigth

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 13:24

Here's an on board gif.

Posted Image

It sure was a gusty move, and it sure made the race more exciting. All's fair in love and war I say, penalty not required. But! I aint a steward lol

#1449 hotstickyslick

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 13:25

Google is your friend, find the hard drivers of F1, GV, Pironi, Jones, Prost, Senna, Alesi, Mansell, Piquet, Hunt to mention a few.... around the late 70's to early 90's was a great era for men who drank beer or scotch from a cracked dirty glass with a hair in it.

So people driving like complete tw@ts was never scored on back then? Want to double check that? Didn't hard drivers like James Hunt lay it into Patrese for RP's death in '78? No idea where you're coming from.

#1450 Rob

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Posted 03 August 2010 - 13:27

So people driving like complete tw@ts was never scored on back then? Want to double check that? Didn't hard drivers like James Hunt lay it into Patrese for RP's death in '78? No idea where you're coming from.


Hunt laid into Patrese because he was looking for a scapegoat. The witch hunt and kangaroo court that followed was one of the most shameful episodes in F1 history. Peterson's accident was started by Hunt himself.