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Barrichello/Schumacher Incident


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#1551 weareracing

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 00:02

:wave:
Sakae, do you feel that Michael's move was a LEGITIMATE racing manoevure ?
Simple question, yes or no?
:wave:

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#1552 Sakae

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 00:27

:wave:
Sakae, do you feel that Michael's move was a LEGITIMATE racing manoevure ?
Simple question, yes or no?
:wave:


If legitimate denotes legal (manouver), than my answer is yes, it was.

I have failed to recal leading precedent or a regulation that was violated, thus it was probably legal (someone would have to dig out the past to prove). I do not know your treshold for tolerating danger, and you may not like it, but I assume you know the difference here between concepts of liking and operating within rules. I will need to read Post-event stewards decison (I have no accreditation, and could not log in to read it on FIA's site) to understand how they explained infraction.

Edited by Sakae, 04 August 2010 - 00:28.


#1553 Lada Lover

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 00:33

I hope MS scores some points, a point even, at Spa. Us old guys are getting a bad rep.

#1554 Sakae

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 00:42

Yes unless you believe faceless experts on internet forums. Some here seem to think the track extends to whatever you might hit, otherwise their "he gave him enough room" argument would be as bogus as... it is.

One of the other talking points that keeps getting repeated is the idea that MS didn't break any "rule" or do anything "illegal". Of course there's no rule that says you can't run someone off the track against a wall. I suppose that the rulemakers never considered that they needed it. I'm rather appalled that any fool thinks that rule should have to be put into place in the first place.

Still, MS apologized and it's over and done. Now we can all sit around and speculate on what the next crisis in F1 will be. Gee, team orders seem like a long time ago now.

I think centerpiece of the discussion is, why Schumacher, why now, why without pre-race warning. It's not first time drivers were in dire straights, and nothing came out of it. For some of us the randomness of those decisions is not well accepted.

Edited by Sakae, 04 August 2010 - 00:43.


#1555 SimMaker

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 01:20

I think centerpiece of the discussion is, why Schumacher, why now, why without pre-race warning. It's not first time drivers were in dire straights, and nothing came out of it. For some of us the randomness of those decisions is not well accepted.


I can agree with this. This should have been stamped on long ago. And it does seem to be the combination of the actual move, and who did it that has created a storm this time. But maybe we expected better from the 7 times world champion. People are now asking, "is this how he won all his titles?" Its not good for MSC or the sport.

I don't like how Vettel "twitches" toward an overtaking car, the little flick of the wheel, the one I think he tried to pull on Webber but was just too damn close. Choose a line, and stick to it.

I don't like how Hamilton seems to push any overtaking car on the outside at Hockenheim hairpin beyond the white lines. I don't like these chop/block off the track moves .

I'm sure others could name many more instances. There are countless times this has happened over the recent years and it seems acceptable now so they all seem to do it to one degree or another.

I don't mind them choosing a line, forcing a competitor to run a less than optimum approach to a corner, but I think a rule should be made that they must leave a cars width if somsene is attempting an overtake, or they'll just do a Shumi, and push them right over the whitelines. And thats just blocking the track off, similar to what MSC did at Monaco in quali some years ago. "If I can't have this position, no one can"

Leave competitors some room. Lets seem some racing, Who is the fastest. Not "who is best at bulllying others off the road"




#1556 ViMaMo

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 01:58

I find it surprising that Michael said he was inviting Rubens to take the outer line, would he not have blocked Rubens had be moved to the outer line? And im not sure if Michael could have kept him behind in that case because Rubens had a good tow.

#1557 Kovalonso

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 02:05

While I do realize that FIA officials have limited time to render their judgment, I am not impressed by any proclamations of absolute conclusions based on perhaps what is at best weak or flimsy evaluation not worth a traffic ticket; but, that's how F1 occasionally operates.

Sakae,
You know that its impossible to cover all specific kind of crimes or transgressions in written law.
That's why people recur to logic and common sense.

Just look at all the pictures and you will clearly see that Michael helmet was directed to the right - I presume - looking to the mirror and with perferct awareness of all the movement he was making.
Rubens was making path w/ more motion and the wall was there.
I think I don't need to mention that MS has full awareness of space there, being a 7wdc and been racing there for nearlly 20 years.
There was a wall and the track was near its end and all.
So MS just kept reducing Rubens space, util throwing him into the pit exit area.
Then MS retreated, but Rubens was going towards the grass and nearly missed the movement over a dirty track, hitting the grass with his right front wheel.

"But he gave Rubens plenty of room" statement is very debatable, bcs depending on the speed, the safety distance is different. At 300km/h, 10/20/30cm for sure is not acceptable, even for a risky profession like theirs.

So MS was just aware of all the risky he was imposing to Rubens and himself, bcs I'm sure that if Rubens had touched the wall or lost control in the dirt, he would collect Michael too.

MS was aware of all the risks and just kept raising it, putting Rubens, himself, the marshals and the public in danger.

Maybe its a case of mental health, not for racing marshals.
His speach trying to justify what he did was increible egotistical, like...
'I'm MS, 7xWdc and 3xAlmost, I don't give presents, you have to sweat to overtake me.'
It sounds megalomaniac, like he was the center of the universe and just by chance, a cataclysm, somebody can possibly overtake him.






#1558 Sakae

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 02:35

Sakae,
You know that its impossible to cover all specific kind of crimes or transgressions in written law.
That's why people recur to logic and common sense.

Just look at all the pictures and you will clearly see that Michael helmet was directed to the right - I presume - looking to the mirror and with perferct awareness of all the movement he was making.
Rubens was making path w/ more motion and the wall was there.
I think I don't need to mention that MS has full awareness of space there, being a 7wdc and been racing there for nearlly 20 years.
There was a wall and the track was near its end and all.
So MS just kept reducing Rubens space, util throwing him into the pit exit area.
Then MS retreated, but Rubens was going towards the grass and nearly missed the movement over a dirty track, hitting the grass with his right front wheel.

"But he gave Rubens plenty of room" statement is very debatable, bcs depending on the speed, the safety distance is different. At 300km/h, 10/20/30cm for sure is not acceptable, even for a risky profession like theirs.

So MS was just aware of all the risky he was imposing to Rubens and himself, bcs I'm sure that if Rubens had touched the wall or lost control in the dirt, he would collect Michael too.

MS was aware of all the risks and just kept raising it, putting Rubens, himself, the marshals and the public in danger.

Maybe its a case of mental health, not for racing marshals.
His speach trying to justify what he did was increible egotistical, like...
'I'm MS, 7xWdc and 3xAlmost, I don't give presents, you have to sweat to overtake me.'
It sounds megalomaniac, like he was the center of the universe and just by chance, a cataclysm, somebody can possibly overtake him.

Let me answer with a question: what was RB' responsibility, as a driver coming from behind? None? How is this "gap closing" differs in any other one, when a driver simply closes a gap? Right now the only rule (I know about anyway) that exists and wasn't broken is not to change line twice in succession as part of the same blocking move.

#1559 Kovalonso

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 03:00

Let me answer with a question: what was RB' responsibility, as a driver coming from behind? None? How is this "gap closing" differs in any other one, when a driver simply closes a gap? Right now the only rule (I know about anyway) that exists and wasn't broken is not to change line twice in succession as part of the same blocking move.

Crashing into another driver is not breaking a rule right away - purposedly or not.
Circunstances must be checked.
That's when common sense comes into play.
Several boards around the world condemns MS by a large margin.

So it's not a particular marshal discretionary opinion.
When most people have a particular view it is called common sense.

Edited by Kovalonso, 04 August 2010 - 03:42.


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#1560 halifaxf1fan

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 03:04

I can agree with this. This should have been stamped on long ago. And it does seem to be the combination of the actual move, and who did it that has created a storm this time. But maybe we expected better from the 7 times world champion. People are now asking, "is this how he won all his titles?" Its not good for MSC or the sport.

I don't like how Vettel "twitches" toward an overtaking car, the little flick of the wheel, the one I think he tried to pull on Webber but was just too damn close. Choose a line, and stick to it.

I don't like how Hamilton seems to push any overtaking car on the outside at Hockenheim hairpin beyond the white lines. I don't like these chop/block off the track moves .

I'm sure others could name many more instances. There are countless times this has happened over the recent years and it seems acceptable now so they all seem to do it to one degree or another.

I don't mind them choosing a line, forcing a competitor to run a less than optimum approach to a corner, but I think a rule should be made that they must leave a cars width if somsene is attempting an overtake, or they'll just do a Shumi, and push them right over the whitelines. And thats just blocking the track off, similar to what MSC did at Monaco in quali some years ago. "If I can't have this position, no one can"

Leave competitors some room. Lets seem some racing, Who is the fastest. Not "who is best at bulllying others off the road"


The young ones are learning from Schumacher how to win at any cost. They are also seeing that it works; weaving down the straights, racing the safety car, lying to the stewards, chop at the start, chop to defend, fake a crash; the penalties are so lenient and the points are so good.

Make an example of Schumacher, soon.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 04 August 2010 - 03:11.


#1561 Birelman

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 04:12

I am lost over criteria that were applied for rendered judgment.

On what precedent, and which rule was contravened?

What comments by Warwick really mean, when he states: "new stewards will not tolerate such driving" or something to that effect.

I am asking then, what about these "new stewards"? Did we fire all old ones? Has FIA issued new guidelines which I haven't read? It's possible.

Then accidentally I came across a statement made by one of the stewards who was working last race, and I dare to say if FIA is worth a nickel, this man should never work on races again, and his ethics should be investigated. Well, thats' what I would do.

I do not want to hyperlink the interview for my privacy reasons, but I am telling the truth, that in the interview he was laughing at Schumacher that he was looking innocent, but "we have showed him", that there will be no repeats of past (implying Jerez and Adel.). So what I get out of this is, that this particular individual shafted Schumacher this time, because over the years MS was looking too many times innocent and he (with his friends and fellow stewards) was going to give him a lesson.

Wow, what a jurisprudence masterpiece.

I am scare and also disinterested to follow on what the others said. To me it's a joke. Joke at the same level when Brundle declared to whole world that Schumacher parking Ferrari in Monaco was intentional, and deliberate, without having slightest clue about true condition of the equipment. That was not important? I would be interested to know more.

On positive side, Michael has truly arrived again, and his "friends" have something to talk about while drinking warm beer. Cheers!


You defend this guy through anything, don't you? Even he apologized, so, unless you think he was a hypocrite, then why not agree with him in admitting he was wrong?

You keep defending the undefendable, at least you're persistent with it, if you were any good at it to convince anybody I'd ask you to be my lawyer one day!!!! :lol:

#1562 goldenboy

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 04:40

On positive side, Michael has truly arrived again, and his "friends" have something to talk about while drinking warm beer. Cheers!

what?

if by arrived again you mean he's back to his old ways, then yes. But not form wise. He could prove everyone wrong and be great next year, but I am thinking it's less and less likely every day. Even Petrov has now improved more over the season than schumacher. How long do we have to give him?

#1563 goldenboy

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 04:49

I can agree with this. This should have been stamped on long ago. And it does seem to be the combination of the actual move, and who did it that has created a storm this time. But maybe we expected better from the 7 times world champion. People are now asking, "is this how he won all his titles?" Its not good for MSC or the sport.

I don't like how Vettel "twitches" toward an overtaking car, the little flick of the wheel, the one I think he tried to pull on Webber but was just too damn close. Choose a line, and stick to it.

I don't like how Hamilton seems to push any overtaking car on the outside at Hockenheim hairpin beyond the white lines. I don't like these chop/block off the track moves .

I'm sure others could name many more instances. There are countless times this has happened over the recent years and it seems acceptable now so they all seem to do it to one degree or another.

I don't mind them choosing a line, forcing a competitor to run a less than optimum approach to a corner, but I think a rule should be made that they must leave a cars width if somsene is attempting an overtake, or they'll just do a Shumi, and push them right over the whitelines. And thats just blocking the track off, similar to what MSC did at Monaco in quali some years ago. "If I can't have this position, no one can"

Leave competitors some room. Lets seem some racing, Who is the fastest. Not "who is best at bulllying others off the road"

I agree somewhat, but can't see a problem with the likes of what you were saying about hamilton. If your on the line and keep it around a corner forcing the driver attempting a pass around the outside to follow you out which ends up with them either holding back or driving off the road, well, I dont really see that as a chop, just holding an optimum line around a corner.

Edited by goldenboy, 04 August 2010 - 04:49.


#1564 Henrytheeigth

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 05:09

Guys I've been thinking. Motor sport is dangerous and we have accidents and moments where our hearts are in our mouths, that's what draws us to it. So F1 isn't WWE, so I think the MS RB saga should have netted no penalty, coz it shows the racing isn't staged but hard fought. Sure safety is paramount, but RB had enough room in the end, and he should of been thrilled to pass MS and get a point rather than moan. I loved that it happened! My view :)

#1565 ViMaMo

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 06:02

Maybe the plan was , MS wanted RB to take the outside line when he started moving across slowly to his right with the intention that (i think) when RB tried to overtake him, MS could block him moving to his left, hence keeping the inside line.

But Barrichello (saw that plan) moved the right and MS panicked little bit and gave him the squeeze.

------------------

I was moving over to the inside to make it very obvious and clear to him to go on the other side, there is more space for you. He didn't choose to, so it got a bit tight. We know certain drivers have certain views and there is Rubens.


Why should Rubens go where MS wants him to go? :drunk:

Edited by vivian, 04 August 2010 - 06:17.


#1566 Levike

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 06:06

Too much fuss about this. I think Rubens showed Schumacher that he won't back off anymore. That should have been enough about the whole incident.
Maybe if this were a normal world then after the race he should have say this tho Schum and then a kick in the face.
Next time guaranteed, that nothing dirty will happening.
Too much PR, too much talk, i think. Generally in every territory of the life, too much talk. Everybody talks but nobody cares and does the things.





#1567 goldenboy

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 06:23

Maybe the plan was , MS wanted RB to take the outside line when he started moving across slowly to his right with the intention that (i think) when RB tried to overtake him, MS could block him moving to his left, hence keeping the inside line.

But Barrichello (saw that plan) moved the right and MS panicked little bit and gave him the squeeze.

this is what I meant earlier. I think it's more than possible he made a mistake out of his skills not being as sharp anymore, either never to return or just not yet being there with race craft due to time out. And is just too proud to admit it. The schumi of old we have no doubt would have done that with the worst of intentions, but that has skewed everyones opinion of him now (his own fault) so that when something like that ever happens, the worst is thought of. just a theory. no one knows but him of course.

#1568 ensign14

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 06:28

Sakae - what is this history between Warwick and Schumacher to which you refer?

Back in 1989 or 1990, when Schumacher was driving for Sauber-Merc and Warwick for Jaguar, at Silverstone in Group C practice Schumacher had Warwick off-track. Delboy was incandescent.

#1569 ivand911

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 06:37

I think I know what happened. Michael was upset form last year Hungary GP.

Posted Image

MS: This is for you, for trying to kill Felipe, bitch. He is my bitch now.

Alonso some seconds ahead: Whose bitch is Felipe?

Edited by ivand911, 04 August 2010 - 06:56.


#1570 Bloggsworth

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 06:45

How about the "lack of scoring" on Jim Clark and his stupid outside passing attempt that killed Von Trips and 15 spectators in the 1961 Italian GP of which the British press doesn't seem to mention very much of and every top driver list conveniently forgets but mentions every single Schumacher incident ...



Even the Italian judiciary, after several years of trying in their interminable way, couldn't pin that on Clark; clearly you have some insight denied the Italian police, forensic scientists and legal system - Please share it if you will...

#1571 Bloggsworth

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 06:49

"I was moving over to the inside to make it very obvious and clear to him to go on the other side, there is more space for you. He didn't choose to, so it got a bit tight. We know certain drivers have certain views and there is Rubens."

If you believe that... I am a businessman from Nigeria and I have £80,000,000 tied up in my Uncle dead's estate, if you could give me the details of your bank account, I can release the money.....

Edited by Bloggsworth, 04 August 2010 - 06:49.


#1572 pRy

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 07:10

Yeah that was a strange interview. He began saying that and then seemed to change his mind mid interview and talked about defending his position and not being easy to pass or something like that. So which is it?

#1573 goldenboy

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 07:15

I think I know what happened. Michael was upset form last year Hungary GP.

Posted Image

MS: This is for you, for trying to kill Felipe, bitch. He is my bitch now.

Alonso some seconds ahead: Whose bitch is Felipe?

ha well if felippe's a bitch then ruebens is a prag.

#1574 britishtrident

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 07:16

Even the Italian judiciary, after several years of trying in their interminable way, couldn't pin that on Clark; clearly you have some insight denied the Italian police, forensic scientists and legal system - Please share it if you will...



Yes the fact that the incident may have been triggered by an over aggresive defence of position by a works Ferrari driver was simply not considered by the investigation.
Von Trips was a known to be driver prepared go beyond the normally accepted measures when defending a position, in contrast Clark throughout his career from club racing at Charterhall to the ill fated F2 race at Hockenhiem was regarded by his peers as one of the cleanest drivers in the history of the sport.

#1575 britishtrident

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 07:21

Back in 1989 or 1990, when Schumacher was driving for Sauber-Merc and Warwick for Jaguar, at Silverstone in Group C practice Schumacher had Warwick off-track. Delboy was incandescent.



Which begs the question: Can anybody come up with a driver from any significance rom the last 20 years Schumacher doesn't have a history with ?

Edited by britishtrident, 04 August 2010 - 07:22.


#1576 Henrik B

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 07:25

I do not want to hyperlink the interview for my privacy reasons


Then it's rubbish. And if the interview actually exists, I don't trust your account of it.


#1577 britishtrident

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 07:31

Yeah that was a strange interview. He began saying that and then seemed to change his mind mid interview and talked about defending his position and not being easy to pass or something like that. So which is it?


Reminded me of a class bully being made to aplogise before the class, he went through the motions of making apology just enough to get out of trouble, but extracting the urine at the same time. I am sure lecturers in Criminal Physchology will use mpegs of the interview as teaching aid on body language.

Edited by britishtrident, 04 August 2010 - 07:32.


#1578 Boing 2

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 07:54

Then accidentally I came across a statement made by one of the stewards who was working last race, and I dare to say if FIA is worth a nickel, this man should never work on races again, and his ethics should be investigated. Well, thats' what I would do.

I do not want to hyperlink the interview for my privacy reasons, but I am telling the truth,



I have to apologize, but I was going to respond with hyperlink to a quote; problem and simple fact is, I can't find it.



how can anyone refute such a devastating avalanche of evidence..... :drunk:

#1579 Boing 2

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 08:04

Check at about 1:10 onwards. Please be aware that there are some very disturbing images in this clip.

Clearly the 4th car (immediately ahead of the accident) was not using the same line and was attempting a pass. If you look further down the field you can see several other cars on the inside of the track looking for passing opportunities too. Look to at the rubber on the entrance to the bend - the line laid down is substantially wider than a single car. Sorry, what you are saying is not what is shown on that clip.

I cannot believe MS is not aware of the details of that accident and it's consequences which makes his behaviour that much more abhorrent.


You poor fool, don't you realise that video evidence, photographic evidence, expert eyewitnesses, criminal investigations and peer opinion means nothing when balanced against an opinion on Teh Internetz?

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#1580 valachus

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 08:07

how can anyone refute such a devastating avalanche of evidence..... :drunk:


google is our friend: http://www.f1fanatic...mercedes-years/
"Mercedes won the sports car championship again in 1990 with more than twice as many points as closest rival Jaguar. But the British team hit back in 1991 with the XJR14 designed by an important figure from Schumacher’s future: Ross Brawn. In a scenario not unlike this year’s F1 championship, Brawn exploited a radical change in the rules to produce a championship-winning car.

Meanwhile Mercedes struggled with the transition from a 5-litre turbo V8 to a 3.5-litre V12. Five of Schumacher’s eight starts ended due to mechanical failure.

Schumacher’s sports car rivals got a preview of the uncompromising tactics he employed on the race track – not least Jaguar’s Derek Warwick, who flew into a rage after being hit by Schumacher during qualifying at the Nürburgring."

more details in German @ http://www.motorspor...r_10080302.html

EDIT: oops it was another steward in the convo there, sorry about that

Edited by valachus, 04 August 2010 - 08:09.


#1581 Frans

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 08:10

HEhe, I have a whole box full of those... But, of course ... can't find them right now..;) :smoking:



This season so far has EXCEEDED my expectations to be honest. Before the season and even at the 1st couple of races I had this weird feeling he could do it, pull it off and amaze people SOMEHOW. But, the big no-show he is so far, and the reasons why people talk about him (some last lap-weirdo-actions of his like a childish kid who doesn't get enough attention) are really really bizar and very un-Schumacheristic if you ask me.

An excuse to his competitors? Well, that was a straight scripted Mercedes team order in order for damage control.

And guess what? They can't sustain this the entire season. I have seen DIE-Hard Schumacher fans around me, who simply CANNOT, but really cannot accept his behavior, and that's a sign to me. A sign of the End-Time of Der Kaiser. The greater they where, the harder they fall or something.

To some he could make a huge smack, but to me only is able to get a bitchslap. He is now showing his treu self, the racer on his OWN strenght, no more No.1 at a team, no more braking teammates. He looks how he is. An old slow girly-driver. :lol:

#1582 Simon Says

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 08:15

Which begs the question: Can anybody come up with a driver from any significance rom the last 20 years Schumacher doesn't have a history with ?


MS also won the Macau F3 GP from Mika by swerving across the track like a mad man.

#1583 Frans

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 08:35

Maybe the name Michael Swervemacher would be a good one for the man?

#1584 Boing 2

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 08:35

Meanwhile Mercedes struggled with the transition from a 5-litre turbo V8 to a 3.5-litre V12. Five of Schumacher’s eight starts ended due to mechanical failure.

Schumacher’s sports car rivals got a preview of the uncompromising tactics he employed on the race track – not least Jaguar’s Derek Warwick, who flew into a rage after being hit by Schumacher during qualifying at the Nürburgring."



sakae claimed to have evidence of unfair critisims by warwick and evidence of abuse of stewardship, that link proves neither. All that says is "driver gets angry when crashed into"

Also, a little digging would have told you that this incident happened very shortly after Dereks brother was killed in an F3000 race. All things considered, if all you do is get angry after being punted off a track when you've just buried your brother then you should be commended for your self control, not ridiculed by internet trolls.



#1585 Galko877

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 09:05

Stats don't tell anything about a driver. No one will talk about Schumacher 20 years from now the way they talk about Gilles Villeneuve, Ayrton Senna, Jim Clark, Jackie Stewart, etc. He'll be put in the Prost box: good numbers, solid driver, but crap sportsman.


So Senna was a great and fair sportsman, but Prost was a crap sportsman? Wow, just wow at your revisionism! :down:

BTW, it's always funny to see Senna fans criticize Schumacher's sportsmanship. :lol:

Edited by Galko877, 04 August 2010 - 09:07.


#1586 goat0063

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 09:11

You poor fool, don't you realise that video evidence, photographic evidence, expert eyewitnesses, criminal investigations and peer opinion means nothing when balanced against an opinion on Teh Internetz?

:rotfl: Silly me, I should have known.....

#1587 goat0063

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 09:14

"I was moving over to the inside to make it very obvious and clear to him to go on the other side, there is more space for you. He didn't choose to, so it got a bit tight. We know certain drivers have certain views and there is Rubens."

If you believe that... I am a businessman from Nigeria and I have £80,000,000 tied up in my Uncle dead's estate, if you could give me the details of your bank account, I can release the money.....

:rotfl: :up:

#1588 goat0063

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 09:16

sakae claimed to have evidence of unfair critisims by warwick and evidence of abuse of stewardship, that link proves neither. All that says is "driver gets angry when crashed into"

Also, a little digging would have told you that this incident happened very shortly after Dereks brother was killed in an F3000 race. All things considered, if all you do is get angry after being punted off a track when you've just buried your brother then you should be commended for your self control, not ridiculed by internet trolls.

:up:

#1589 VresiBerba

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 09:26

Then what right did Rubens have to put his car there when Schumachers move across the track never made a massive deviation. He was aiming his car at the wall and Rubbens went for the gap. Not only did Rubens make an illegal pass, but also and illegal chop.

Really, you guys... You're seriously going from nearly black-flagged, nearly one-race banned but still penalised Shumi, to Rubens making not one but two illegal moves on Shumi. Honestly, how can you guys hold back, because that leap makes this ruling the biggest injustice in the history of this sport. Which kind of makes one wonder why Mercedes didn't appeal.

#1590 EddyCurrents

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 09:32

There is a lot more to the Schumacher/Barrichello incident than you might imagine.

It all stems from a push by Bernie Ecclestone to "spice up the show". In private communications with the FIA that I have seen, Bernie is pushing for the introduction of a bonus points scheme for next year, where drivers would score additional points for inflicting actual bodily harm on their rivals. A sliding scale is envisaged, which would see 25 points awarded for killing an opponent outright, down to a single point for a minor bone breakage.

New technical regulations will allow teams to introduce James Bond-esque "power-ups", such as slippery oil slick dispensers and guided missiles. Apparently Ecclestone hit upon the idea after seeing his great-great-grandchildren playing Mario Kart.

In Hungary, Schumi, ever the perfectionist (and having written off his chances this season) was determined to get ahead of the curve on the new regs, and the incident with Rubens amounted to little more than a spot of pre-season testing.

Edited by EddyCurrents, 04 August 2010 - 09:33.


#1591 VresiBerba

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 09:40

The irony is that this overtaking will be remembered with Barrichello crying and Michael as usual being hard racer (I left him too much space). Barrichello missed an opportunity to present himself for history as smart and cool overtaker. No, he started to cry. What a pathetic Pamperchello. Jeeez, instead of saying that it was nothing special and that's how he fights, he reveals his "Michael complexes".

Why Rubens should go around saying 'it was nothing special' when it clearly was, is completely beyond my comprehension. It clearly was a black-flag punishable incident, which is the same as a disqualification. I can't even remember the last time a driver were disqualified for a driving offence against another driver, yet you guys are trivialising this as 'nothing special' :rolleyes:

#1592 Frans

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 09:43

One must even wonder, PURELY technicly seen;

If Rubens would file a police-file against Schumacher then and there for that move, I really really believe Rubens even would have a case.



#1593 aditya-now

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 09:44

Let me answer with a question: what was RB' responsibility, as a driver coming from behind? None? How is this "gap closing" differs in any other one, when a driver simply closes a gap?


Coming into a gap with a wall on the other side, Rubens was surely not thinking that Michael would go the whole nine yards of squeezing him to the wall in such a dangerous way.
So there is no responsibilty on Rubens part, after all, he was racing. The proactive party in the dangerous act was Schumacher alone.

See it from this angle: when another car is that much quicker (3 secs per lap), even # 1 drivers (like Alonso, Senna, Prost) have often ceded their place - what´s the point of fighting when the opponent is so much faster. That is fair driving, gentleman driving. You see it time and again over the history of the sport until now.

When it was Senna/Prost in Estoril 1988 they were fighting for the supremacy in the sport and the WDC. Even then Ayrton's act is unpardonable.

What was Michael fighting for?
A tenth place, a single point. He is prepared to fight to the death for a single point. I have never seen another driver do such a maneuver for tenth place.

#1594 aditya-now

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 09:55

what?

if by arrived again you mean he's back to his old ways, then yes. But not form wise. He could prove everyone wrong and be great next year, but I am thinking it's less and less likely every day. Even Petrov has now improved more over the season than schumacher. How long do we have to give him?


It's very obvious from Hungary that Hulkenberg and Petrov, the two rookies, have improved big time since the season started.
Not so Michael. In his desperation he starts to fight life and death over a tenth place.

Imagine Hulkenberg or Petrov pulling such a move - what would be the world's reaction to that? Would they be able to keep their superlicenses?

#1595 MCh000

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 09:56

Why Rubens should go around saying 'it was nothing special' when it clearly was, is completely beyond my comprehension. It clearly was a black-flag punishable incident, which is the same as a disqualification. I can't even remember the last time a driver were disqualified for a driving offence against another driver, yet you guys are trivialising this as 'nothing special' :rolleyes:


I don't say that it is was nothing special nor I say it was. I just say, that Barrichello could present himself for the history as a racer, instead he presented himself as a crying baby. I don't care if he would shit the pants - just don't cry. I'm sure Hamilton wouldn't.

#1596 Buttoneer

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 10:17

What was Michael fighting for?
A tenth place, a single point. He is prepared to fight to the death for a single point. I have never seen another driver do such a maneuver for tenth place.

My view is that I like to see drivers fighting tooth and nail for every position regardless of the points on offer. The question here is not whether they should fight as hard as they can but whether fighting as hard as they can is too hard in this instance.

#1597 VresiBerba

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 10:22

If legitimate denotes legal (manouver), than my answer is yes, it was.

I have failed to recal leading precedent or a regulation that was violated, thus it was probably legal (someone would have to dig out the past to prove).

Why do you think Shumi was penalised if you think no rule was broken. Of course a rule was broken:

Of-bloody-course a rule was broken. What do you think, they penalised shumi out of pure spite.

16.1 "Incident" means any occurrence or series of occurrences involving one or more drivers, or any action by
any driver, which is reported to the stewards by the race director (or noted by the stewards and referred to
the race director for investigation) which :
- necessitated the suspension of a race under Article 41 ;
- constituted a breach of these Sporting Regulations or the Code ;
- caused a false start by one or more cars ;
- caused a collision ;
- forced a driver off the track ;
- illegitimately prevented a legitimate overtaking manoeuvre by a driver ;
- illegitimately impeded another driver during overtaking.

The FIA stewards penalised the seven-time champion as he had "illegitimately impeded car 9 during an overtaking manoeuvre." Source



#1598 ivand911

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 10:29

It's very obvious from Hungary that Hulkenberg and Petrov, the two rookies, have improved big time since the season started.
Not so Michael. In his desperation he starts to fight life and death over a tenth place.

Imagine Hulkenberg or Petrov pulling such a move - what would be the world's reaction to that? Would they be able to keep their superlicenses?

They both improved so much they beat Button too. His McLaren too. How you all forget this? Last year champion. Or just their cars improved a lot. If they pull such move there would be very little noise about it. Your selective memory as always. Suddenly, from nowhere Sauber drivers are also very good, they improve a lot.

Edited by ivand911, 04 August 2010 - 10:38.


#1599 VresiBerba

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 10:36

I don't say that it is was nothing special nor I say it was. I just say, that Barrichello could present himself for the history as a racer, instead he presented himself as a crying baby. I don't care if he would shit the pants - just don't cry. I'm sure Hamilton wouldn't.

But somehow you think Rubens should go around saying it was [nothing special]. How come? Why, in heavens name should Rubens do that, when it clearly wasn't :confused:

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#1600 Buttoneer

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 11:03

Let me answer with a question: what was RB' responsibility, as a driver coming from behind? None? How is this "gap closing" differs in any other one, when a driver simply closes a gap? Right now the only rule (I know about anyway) that exists and wasn't broken is not to change line twice in succession as part of the same blocking move.

Why don't you try to think like a manager. Lay out the track, car positions, race positions, surface condition, risk, speeds cars travelling, distance to braking zone and angle of entry to the next turn, and then, after you put all this together, as a thinking adult you tell me how smart Schumacher was under those conditions. His pride ahead of loosing another car, maybe hurt second driver or maybe both, had Barrichello gotten fish tail? If you are short sighted and you think only about an inch or so ahead of your face, than you might have a case, but otherwise you take Schumacher into shed, and have a word with him. There is not much to be add to this.

Thing is, I have problem with Schumacher. He should know better, and mittigate the risk by not being as close to the right. How close he too was to DNF? It's incorrect to say as some do, that he didn't know where Barrichello was, and he had time to act sensibly.

If they had crashed, my conclusion is, that it would have been a preventable racing accident. Assignment of responsibilities:

1. Barrichello - guiloty of racing.
2. Schumacher - guiloty of not reading situation correctly, and steering the pot wrong way.