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Barrichello/Schumacher Incident


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#1651 Buzz47

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 15:47

Again "could have" "killed" "if if if"

People here are all speculating on what could have happend etc etc. Stick to the facts. Even the smallest accident can be fatal. What about surtees son that had that wheel bouncing against his head? What about Massa almost being killed by a spring off Barrichello's car. I even saw a motorcycle rider sliding off the bike which would normally result in him walking back to the bike and getting on again, now he got hit in the head and died.

Schumacher needs to be punished (and has been) about what he has done not what "could" have happend.


The reason why they create rules, especially safety related rules, is because of "ifs" and "coulds". I was simply pointing out that there is vociferous support for MS despite the fact that he made a move that pushed RB to the very edge of what could have been disasterous consequences. Had those consequences happened, I suspect many of those arguing on behalf of MS would be keeping very, very quiet.


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#1652 makef1better

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 16:17

I know I will provoke some (at least :-)) with my message.

I agree this has been dangerous but this is F1. (Driving with 150 Miles/h through e.g. Monaco is also very dangerous.) I found the move from “BOTH” dangerous especially because of the exit of the pitlane.

Schumacher pushed Barichello to the limit but no more! He stayed on the left side of the line and be sure that he knows how much space is left between the white line and the wall.

(Btw.: there are also so many fake pictures her which shows that a car would not fit between the wall and the white line but if you lock for e.g. “http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1NaL4ZzhYI” it shows a different picture.)

It has been said before, it was also up to Barichello to lift the foot but this was just a personal thing and now Barichello complains how dangerous it was ?! It was a very stupid and dangerous move by Barichello too to take the move on the right side where the pitlane is!

I'm not saying that the move from Schumacher should be tolerated but I'm concerned that this punishment sends indeed a wrong message saying “you can't defend your position if you would force someone e.g. into the grass or gravel”. F1 would get then even more boring!

Maybe a rule saying “that overtaking between a wall and another car is not allowed” would take such dangerous movements out (?). But this could mean no overtaking in Monaco at all :-)

Probably this is off topic; the stewards needs to be controlled too. They have an increasing influence about the outcome of an championship itself.

#1653 Radoye

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 16:29

Schumacher pushed Barichello to the limit but no more! He stayed on the left side of the line and be sure that he knows how much space is left between the white line and the wall.

The white line is the limit, not the wall, the wall is way beyond the limit!

#1654 PayasYouRace

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 16:33

(Btw.: there are also so many fake pictures her which shows that a car would not fit between the wall and the white line


Really? Where are the fake pictures?

#1655 Dunder

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 16:34

I know I will provoke some (at least :-)) with my message.

I agree this has been dangerous but this is F1. (Driving with 150 Miles/h through e.g. Monaco is also very dangerous.) I found the move from “BOTH” dangerous especially because of the exit of the pitlane.

Schumacher pushed Barichello to the limit but no more! He stayed on the left side of the line and be sure that he knows how much space is left between the white line and the wall.

(Btw.: there are also so many fake pictures her which shows that a car would not fit between the wall and the white line but if you lock for e.g. “http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1NaL4ZzhYI” it shows a different picture.)

It has been said before, it was also up to Barichello to lift the foot but this was just a personal thing and now Barichello complains how dangerous it was ?! It was a very stupid and dangerous move by Barichello too to take the move on the right side where the pitlane is!

I'm not saying that the move from Schumacher should be tolerated but I'm concerned that this punishment sends indeed a wrong message saying “you can't defend your position if you would force someone e.g. into the grass or gravel”. F1 would get then even more boring!

Maybe a rule saying “that overtaking between a wall and another car is not allowed” would take such dangerous movements out (?). But this could mean no overtaking in Monaco at all :-)

Probably this is off topic; the stewards needs to be controlled too. They have an increasing influence about the outcome of an championship itself.


If you were allowed to force a car which is trying to overtake you into the grass or gravel on a straight, there would be no succesful overtaking moves.


#1656 Henrik B

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 16:35

Schumacher pushed Barichello to the limit but no more! He stayed on the left side of the line and be sure that he knows how much space is left between the white line and the wall.

(Btw.: there are also so many fake pictures her which shows that a car would not fit between the wall and the white line but if you lock for e.g. “http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1NaL4ZzhYI” it shows a different picture.)

I'm not saying that the move from Schumacher should be tolerated but I'm concerned that this punishment sends indeed a wrong message saying “you can't defend your position if you would force someone e.g. into the grass or gravel”. F1 would get then even more boring!


1) The limit isn't the wall, it's the line that separates the track from the rest of the world. Schumacher had no business pushing him over THAT line, and absolutely not up against the wall beside the track.

2) Point me to one fake picture in this thread. I believe there are none. Yes, it really was that tight.

3) It has never, never, NEVER been OK to push someone off the track. You are allowed to block the way if you are ahead, choose your line, but Schumacher was too slow and started the push after Barri was beside him, and CONTINUED to push even after they were side-by-side. The reason that he was too slow is because he had to wait to see where Rubens was going. Those that claim this behaviour was OK in the "golden days" are shoveling manure. It wasn't.

You're not provoking, you're just wrong.

#1657 makef1better

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 16:41

1) The limit isn't the wall, it's the line that separates the track from the rest of the world. Schumacher had no business pushing him over THAT line, and absolutely not up against the wall beside the track.

2) Point me to one fake picture in this thread. I believe there are none. Yes, it really was that tight.

3) It has never, never, NEVER been OK to push someone off the track. You are allowed to block the way if you are ahead, choose your line, but Schumacher was too slow and started the push after Barri was beside him, and CONTINUED to push even after they were side-by-side. The reason that he was too slow is because he had to wait to see where Rubens was going. Those that claim this behaviour was OK in the "golden days" are shoveling manure. It wasn't.

You're not provoking, you're just wrong.



Didi you watch the video?

#1658 ExFlagMan

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 16:56

1) The limit isn't the wall, it's the line that separates the track from the rest of the world. Schumacher had no business pushing him over THAT line, and absolutely not up against the wall beside the track.

And the white line is there for a reason - to help separate the drivers from pit boards hung over the wall and to help protect the mechanics from having the pit boards ripped out of their hands.

I imaging contact between a pit board and a drivers head would have pretty similar results to the accident that killed Tom Pryce - Even a modern pit board is not the lightest of objects. A pit board even hitting a rear wing would have pretty disasterous consequence for the guy holding it.

#1659 jimm

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 17:55

And the white line is there for a reason - to help separate the drivers from pit boards hung over the wall and to help protect the mechanics from having the pit boards ripped out of their hands.

I imaging contact between a pit board and a drivers head would have pretty similar results to the accident that killed Tom Pryce - Even a modern pit board is not the lightest of objects. A pit board even hitting a rear wing would have pretty disasterous consequence for the guy holding it.



The spring that nearly killed Massa was much lighter than the pit boards. Pretty much any object struck at over 150mph is likely cause alot of damage.

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#1660 johnmhinds

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 18:08

What a bizarre thread.

Why are people are defending a move that Schumacher himself has publicly apologised for.

And what's with all this talk of fake images? I haven't seen any in this thread.

#1661 goat0063

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 18:33

Pit: "Michael, Rubens is faster than you. Can you confirm that you understand?"

MS "Bitch is going in the wall"

#1662 royalblue0

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 18:35

Pit: "Michael, Rubens is faster than you. Can you confirm that you understand?"

MS "Bitch is going in the wall"


:rotfl:






#1663 FlatOverCrest

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 18:49

What a bizarre thread.

Why are people are defending a move that Schumacher himself has publicly apologised for.

And what's with all this talk of fake images? I haven't seen any in this thread.


I can hold my hand up and plead guilty.... :well:

Rubens was not in fact part of 300 Spartans, he did not live in 480 BC and nor did he take part in the Battle for Thermopylae, nor did he take part in the film....

Therefore with great shame I do confess...the picture I created above..... IS A FAKE!!!

I know...I know...it is shocking.... but alas true... i do most humbly apologise!

:blush:

#1664 Gareth

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 19:22

FOC: well done for admitting your mistake. I'm still dropping your next post 10 spots down the Spa thread though. ;)

#1665 goat0063

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 19:48

I can hold my hand up and plead guilty.... :well:

Rubens was not in fact part of 300 Spartans, he did not live in 480 BC and nor did he take part in the Battle for Thermopylae, nor did he take part in the film....

Therefore with great shame I do confess...the picture I created above..... IS A FAKE!!!

I know...I know...it is shocking.... but alas true... i do most humbly apologise!

:blush:

:rotfl: You had me going for a minute........ :p

#1666 goat0063

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 19:49

FOC: well done for admitting your mistake. I'm still dropping your next post 10 spots down the Spa thread though.;)

Serves him right! :up:

#1667 Henrytheeigth

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 19:51

Only some of us, thankfully.


Now don't misjudge me and think I want a blood sport k? How can anyone not like the 'thrill' of hard close racing is beyond me, I never said I want to see death....:p


#1668 makef1better

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 20:03

QUOTE (makef1better @ Aug 4 2010, 17:17) *
I know I will provoke some (at least :-)) with my message.

I agree this has been dangerous but this is F1. (Driving with 150 Miles/h through e.g. Monaco is also very dangerous.) I found the move from “BOTH” dangerous especially because of the exit of the pitlane.

Schumacher pushed Barichello to the limit but no more! He stayed on the left side of the line and be sure that he knows how much space is left between the white line and the wall.

(Btw.: there are also so many fake pictures her which shows that a car would not fit between the wall and the white line but if you lock for e.g. “http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1NaL4ZzhYI” it shows a different picture.)

It has been said before, it was also up to Barichello to lift the foot but this was just a personal thing and now Barichello complains how dangerous it was ?! It was a very stupid and dangerous move by Barichello too to take the move on the right side where the pitlane is!

I'm not saying that the move from Schumacher should be tolerated but I'm concerned that this punishment sends indeed a wrong message saying “you can't defend your position if you would force someone e.g. into the grass or gravel”. F1 would get then even more boring!

Maybe a rule saying “that overtaking between a wall and another car is not allowed” would take such dangerous movements out (?). But this could mean no overtaking in Monaco at all :-)

Probably this is off topic; the stewards needs to be controlled too. They have an increasing influence about the outcome of an championship itself.
------------------------------------------

If you were allowed to force a car which is trying to overtake you into the grass or gravel on a straight, there would be no succesful overtaking moves.
------------------------------------------

Sorry, I should have used another terminology; "closing the door"


#1669 FlatOverCrest

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 20:05

FOC: well done for admitting your mistake. I'm still dropping your next post 10 spots down the Spa thread though.;)


B...but....but...... :|

Lifes soooooooooooooooo unfair! :(

#1670 goat0063

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 20:21

B...but....but...... :|

Lifes soooooooooooooooo unfair! :(

At least you didn't lie to the moderators - then you really would have been for it. :rotfl:

#1671 rm111

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 20:31

Pit: "Michael, Rubens is faster than you. Can you confirm that you understand?"

MS "Bitch is going in the wall"

:lol: :rotfl: :lol:

#1672 Dave Ware

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 00:01

I believe that's the dirtiest move I've ever seen. I've lost a lot of respect for Schumacher because of this.

I'm also disappointed in Ross Brawn's comments about Ruebens whining and having a problem with Schumacher. Brawn should either address this issue of his driver's action or keep his mouth shut, rather than attack the driver who was nearly pushed into the wall at 185mph.

Not sure that I want to see Mercades and Schumacher succeed next season.

Some have arugued that Ruebens was at fault for continuning to drive forward when Schumacher started moving over on him. Had Schumacher had given him enough room to stay on the track, then these arguements would have some merit. But they are nullified by the fact that Schumacher pushed him off the road and within inches of the wall.

Yes, I watched the You Tube video. Odd that it would be presented as an alternative to "fake" pictures. The video is so revealing that there is no need to fake a picture. The video clearly shows that there isn't room to swing a skinned cat between the wall and Reubens' car.



#1673 Kovalonso

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 01:28

In JA pool:

How do you feel about Schumacher's move on Barrichello?
Outrageous 73.3% (6,998 votes)
Hard but fair 21.3% (2,034 votes)
I've no problem with it 5.3% (510 votes)
Total Votes: 9,542

Look at the pool results.
By far, most people believe MS manouvre was outrageous.
For sure the 5% ones won't convince us otherwise.

#1674 black magic

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 02:37

he's been punished and apologised

its ok he's not winning the championship.

as for the white line being regarded as the "edge " of track oh piss off. any number of races this year has seen drivers well over it. seem to recall vettel and hamilton fighting inside the pitlane and no formal penalty. others going outside the line on pitlaqne entry - no punishment

so get a little balance

he deserved his rebuke, he's accepted it now move on

#1675 Rubens Hakkamacher

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 04:57

So you believe that Schumacher had a right to continue moving right at this point? This is the crux of the legality/illegality of his defence.


No it's not. It's not up to a leading car to get out of the way of an overtaking car.

Watch the in-car footage of Ruben's car from the exit of the previous corner.

1) Schumacher was continuously headed to the inside from the exit.
2) At the point where Rubens pulled out, there *was* enough room. This, however, is irrelevant, because Schumacher would have had to at that moment decided to suddenly drive *straight*. There was absolutely no reason for him to do this. It was not his responsibility to do so.

3) Schumacher continued his line towards the inside. Rubens accelerates;
4) Right at the point in which Rubens gets his front wheels alongside Schumacher's rear, *his front right tire is already off the track*. This is not "making a pass"; this is *driving off the course*. It is also not Schumacher's fault: Schumacher held his line, *Rubens* changed his line.
5) By the time he gets his front wheels halfway up Schumacher's chassis, he's almost completely off the track. This is the picture everyone keeps posting: but it doesn't tell the story outlined above, which is technically legal and RACING.

At that point it was Ruben's bullheadedness to force his way through.






Schumacher very clearly was already headed towards the side of the track; *Rubens* decided to try to go around. That the track ran out is not Schumacher's fault. He was making his defensive move, and it *was* up to Rubens to try to go for it. Rubens *did* have the choice to jink back to the left and go around the outside - *then* Schumacher would not have had an answer without blocking.

IF Schumacher had been going straight, and cut into him once he was alongside, that would be different. Showing a picture of Ruben's alongside doesn't mean anything at all; it's what happened *before* it got to that point. That was quite frankly a battle of nerves, but one instigated by Rubens deciding to go for it, NOT Schumacher closing the door BEFORE Rubens pulled out to try to go around.

It was close: the problem is that the *track* ends where the white line is. A different part of the track - without the pit wall - would have meant Ruben's would have had to drive *on the grass* to get his front wheels up.












#1676 as65p

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 06:05

Schumacher would have had to at that moment decided to suddenly drive *straight*. There was absolutely no reason for him to do this.


:lol: :up:

I see your point. It could have destroyed his whole legacy, had he suddenly decided to drive straight after all those years.

:drunk:

#1677 makef1better

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 06:14

No it's not. It's not up to a leading car to get out of the way of an overtaking car.

Watch the in-car footage of Ruben's car from the exit of the previous corner.

1) Schumacher was continuously headed to the inside from the exit.
2) At the point where Rubens pulled out, there *was* enough room. This, however, is irrelevant, because Schumacher would have had to at that moment decided to suddenly drive *straight*. There was absolutely no reason for him to do this. It was not his responsibility to do so.

3) Schumacher continued his line towards the inside. Rubens accelerates;
4) Right at the point in which Rubens gets his front wheels alongside Schumacher's rear, *his front right tire is already off the track*. This is not "making a pass"; this is *driving off the course*. It is also not Schumacher's fault: Schumacher held his line, *Rubens* changed his line.
5) By the time he gets his front wheels halfway up Schumacher's chassis, he's almost completely off the track. This is the picture everyone keeps posting: but it doesn't tell the story outlined above, which is technically legal and RACING.

At that point it was Ruben's bullheadedness to force his way through.






Schumacher very clearly was already headed towards the side of the track; *Rubens* decided to try to go around. That the track ran out is not Schumacher's fault. He was making his defensive move, and it *was* up to Rubens to try to go for it. Rubens *did* have the choice to jink back to the left and go around the outside - *then* Schumacher would not have had an answer without blocking.

IF Schumacher had been going straight, and cut into him once he was alongside, that would be different. Showing a picture of Ruben's alongside doesn't mean anything at all; it's what happened *before* it got to that point. That was quite frankly a battle of nerves, but one instigated by Rubens deciding to go for it, NOT Schumacher closing the door BEFORE Rubens pulled out to try to go around.

It was close: the problem is that the *track* ends where the white line is. A different part of the track - without the pit wall - would have meant Ruben's would have had to drive *on the grass* to get his front wheels up.


Well explained, there would not have been much to complain if there would not be the wall and the pitlane. But because of this it was dangerous from BOTH.




#1678 makef1better

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 06:19

I believe that's the dirtiest move I've ever seen. I've lost a lot of respect for Schumacher because of this.

I'm also disappointed in Ross Brawn's comments about Ruebens whining and having a problem with Schumacher. Brawn should either address this issue of his driver's action or keep his mouth shut, rather than attack the driver who was nearly pushed into the wall at 185mph.

Not sure that I want to see Mercades and Schumacher succeed next season.

Some have arugued that Ruebens was at fault for continuning to drive forward when Schumacher started moving over on him. Had Schumacher had given him enough room to stay on the track, then these arguements would have some merit. But they are nullified by the fact that Schumacher pushed him off the road and within inches of the wall.

Yes, I watched the You Tube video. Odd that it would be presented as an alternative to "fake" pictures. The video is so revealing that there is no need to fake a picture. The video clearly shows that there isn't room to swing a skinned cat between the wall and Reubens' car.


Since when and what are you watching? How often have been the doors closed? The differenze is that this has been done at a dangerous place. Therefore and only therfore I can agree with a punishment. But on the same hand, Rubens deserve as well one!

No question about this, Rubens did a very stupid and dangerous move especially because there was the pitlane.

You don't see the diference between the video and the picture e.g. posted 2 pages back??

#1679 ivand911

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 08:27

A clearer picture from incident.
http://www.jamesalle...a-clearer-view/
I think Rubens have enough space here?

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#1680 pRy

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 08:36

A clearer picture from incident.
http://www.jamesalle...a-clearer-view/
I think Rubens have enough space here?


Depends what you mean by "enough space".. did he have enough space to not crash, yes, because he didn't.

But is it acceptable to be pushed within half a tyre width of a concreate wall at high speed by another driver? The pit boards hanging over the wall behind are a good illustration that F1 doesn't expect drivers to be in that part of the start/finish straight normally.

#1681 man

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 08:41

For the deluded: it doesn't take skill to drive your competitor dangerously close to the pitwall, it takes stupidy...something that M Schumacher has in abundance.

Re Warwick/M Schumacher. Yes I recall that incident from 1991. I seem to remember Delboy actually roughing up M Schumacher in the pits/paddock afterwards.

#1682 man

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 08:43

The problem with complaining about Warwick is that M Schumacher has made so many enemies in motor racing over the years regardless of the selected steward is, they will probably have a low opinion of him

#1683 Buttoneer

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 09:16

The pit boards hanging over the wall behind are a good illustration that F1 doesn't expect drivers to be in that part of the start/finish straight normally.

Not just pit boards but a few curious heads leaning out too if you take a look at some of the higher resolution images.

#1684 johnmhinds

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 09:29

A clearer picture from incident.
http://www.jamesalle...a-clearer-view/
I think Rubens have enough space here?


How can you possibly think he had enough space?
Can you not see that all four of Barrichello's wheels are off the track?

I can't believe some of you are so blind to the dangers Barrichello was in.

Even if for some crazy reason you think Schumacher's block was ok, you should still be outraged that he chose to drive them both clear over the pit exit putting both them danger and anyone who might have been exiting the pits.

http://cl.ly/a40f5e8527658061c732

The move was insane and Schumacher got lucky to only get a 10 place grid drop for the next race.

Edited by johnmhinds, 05 August 2010 - 09:32.


#1685 Imuhcs

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 09:44

Its weird that most people are just seeing black and white, why arent people judging Rubens commitment to make a pass that isnt there.

#1686 Gareth

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 09:47

Because the pass was there?

If Schumacher wanted to block off the right side, he should have moved up to the white line before Rubens moved out from behind him. Schumacher moved too late so lost the opportunity to block off that line but continued to try, nearly putting Rubens into the wall.

If you think someone is entitled to put anyone who starts to pull alongside them on the straight off the track then you are basically saying that passes are never on.

#1687 alfa1

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 09:48

The problem with complaining about Warwick is that M Schumacher has made so many enemies in motor racing over the years regardless of the selected steward is, they will probably have a low opinion of him



Well lets start making a list.
Frentzen was a steward earlier this year. He probably remembers Schumacher chopping him off the road at Canada.


#1688 Imuhcs

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 09:49

Because the pass was there?

If Schumacher wanted to block off the right side, he should have moved up to the white line before Rubens moved out from behind him. Schumacher moved too late so lost the opportunity to block off that line but continued to try, nearly putting Rubens into the wall.

If you think someone is entitled to put anyone who starts to pull alongside them on the straight off the track then you are basically saying that passes are never on.

Michael was allready going for the inside line.

#1689 SimMaker

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 09:54

Its weird that most people are just seeing black and white, why arent people judging Rubens commitment to make a pass that isnt there.


Having read the post on JAs site, I can now see more clearly why MSC supporters are outraged at the outrage. It was a fantastically exciting moment. I said at the time that Rubens became a "Great" even if for only a few seconds, and from his comments after the race, it seems he did not like how far he had to put it on or over the line to do it.

I think now though, I have been unfair to put all the blame on MSC, though I am in no way anti-Shumi in the first place. I like all the drivers and don't have any paricular favorite, more interested in the cars, but thats me.

Upon reflection, I now wonder what really is the most dangerous aspect of that pass. Was it the proximity to the wall and pit exit? Or was it the egos of both, pent up frustration of years past and failures new that seemed to force this event to occur.

I still want the FIA to kick the ass of all drivers with respect to the white lines. I'm sick of seeing people force others off the trackm here, at chicanes, hairpins. I want to see racing, and I certainly don't want to see anyone hurt.

Opinions on this may seem to fit into a few categorys, but it only seem that way. I was speaking someone the other day, who thought it was great, but really wanted to see them crash. We can often forget in a place like this where most love the sport, that for a lot of people, F1 is the chance to watch some spectacular crashes, and the worse the better.

Edited by SimMaker, 05 August 2010 - 09:57.


#1690 Gareth

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 09:55

Going for != got. He's not entitled to keep driving the same line regardless of whether someone has pulled alongside him or not. If he wanted to claim the inside come what may, he should have gone on a trajectory that narrowed the gap between him and the inside before Barrichello had the chance to get alongside.

He left it too late and, rather than accepting his error and giving Rubens the room to which he was entitled, squeezed him too hard to the wall.

#1691 Dunder

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 10:39

No it's not. It's not up to a leading car to get out of the way of an overtaking car.

Watch the in-car footage of Ruben's car from the exit of the previous corner.

1) Schumacher was continuously headed to the inside from the exit.
2) At the point where Rubens pulled out, there *was* enough room. This, however, is irrelevant, because Schumacher would have had to at that moment decided to suddenly drive *straight*. There was absolutely no reason for him to do this. It was not his responsibility to do so.

3) Schumacher continued his line towards the inside. Rubens accelerates;
4) Right at the point in which Rubens gets his front wheels alongside Schumacher's rear, *his front right tire is already off the track*. This is not "making a pass"; this is *driving off the course*. It is also not Schumacher's fault: Schumacher held his line, *Rubens* changed his line.
5) By the time he gets his front wheels halfway up Schumacher's chassis, he's almost completely off the track. This is the picture everyone keeps posting: but it doesn't tell the story outlined above, which is technically legal and RACING.

At that point it was Ruben's bullheadedness to force his way through.






Schumacher very clearly was already headed towards the side of the track; *Rubens* decided to try to go around. That the track ran out is not Schumacher's fault. He was making his defensive move, and it *was* up to Rubens to try to go for it. Rubens *did* have the choice to jink back to the left and go around the outside - *then* Schumacher would not have had an answer without blocking.

IF Schumacher had been going straight, and cut into him once he was alongside, that would be different. Showing a picture of Ruben's alongside doesn't mean anything at all; it's what happened *before* it got to that point. That was quite frankly a battle of nerves, but one instigated by Rubens deciding to go for it, NOT Schumacher closing the door BEFORE Rubens pulled out to try to go around.

It was close: the problem is that the *track* ends where the white line is. A different part of the track - without the pit wall - would have meant Ruben's would have had to drive *on the grass* to get his front wheels up.


OK so you answered the question.
At the point of the image I posted you believe that Schumacher was entitled to continue moving right.

I wholeheartedly disagree.


#1692 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 10:48

Michael was allready going for the inside line.


'Going for' is key. If MS wanted the inside line he should have swooped over there early and blocked the inside before Rubens was close enough to occupy the space alongside him. He didn't do this, he left a gap there until right at the last minute when Rubens had already got alongside him. Once Rubens got alongside MS keeps closing whilst at the same time looking in his mirrors. He knew exactly what he was doing and has since admitted he was wrong to do it. Why are people still trying to defend the indefensible?


OK so you answered the question.
At the point of the image I posted you believe that Schumacher was entitled to continue moving right.

I wholeheartedly disagree.



+1

Andrew C who wrote into James Allens blog does have a point however. Rubens and Michael managed to judge the gap down to the cenitmetre and it was a spectacular pass from Rubens. Maybe we should give Rubens more credit instead of focusing on the negative of MS being dangerous.

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 05 August 2010 - 11:06.


#1693 Simon Says

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 11:09

The problem with complaining about Warwick is that M Schumacher has made so many enemies in motor racing over the years regardless of the selected steward is, they will probably have a low opinion of him


Please, there are 4 stewards who have to agree :rolleyes:

MS is actually very lucky he didn't get banned.

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/85838

"You have to view the evidence you have and you could disqualify him from the next Grand Prix, or two Grands Prix.

So MS could have been banned from the next race or even more. But due to the time limit they just gave MS a 10-grid penalty

#1694 scarletf12002

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 11:31

Yes I agree was a dangerous blocking manourve and yes the man himself involved has said he pushed too far this time and apologised for it but can we stop pretending that alot of people can't seem to hide their "pure joy" at the fact Schumacher has fallen off a very high pedistal?

If I was Schumacher the fact that Mercedes isn't fully compatible with his way of driving wouldn't bother me, the fact he is qualifying with midstream runners wouldn't bother me either however that every ex-driver that ever was seems to be using his comeback as a chance to get 15 seconds of old glory by criticizing him would really start to grate on my nerves!

BTW if people really can't see the connection between media access and how much a good press a driver gets then they are living in a fairy tale! Hence why they Mark Webber is loved so much, feelings for Lewis Hamilton (apart from ITV!) is usuallly luke warm and for Schumacher and Alonso is stone cold!


#1695 stuck-in-first-gear

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 11:39

It takes two to Tango :wave:

Rubens was desperate to leave his past behind and show himself and his fans what he is "really" made of.

It was by far the most exciting moment of the race. MS received a penalty, that is what the majority here wants anyway.

Move on to Spa, and lets see if there is anything left in the rainmaster to put on a decent show.

Go Schumi :up:

#1696 Rubens Hakkamacher

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 14:31

OK so you answered the question.
At the point of the image I posted you believe that Schumacher was entitled to continue moving right.

I wholeheartedly disagree.



Closing the door is closing the door. Does Schumacher get to make a defensive move or not? If every leading driver is responsible for staying out of the way of any car that makes an attempt to pass, then it's just a drag race. It was Ruben's decision to continue to try to pass.


If Schumacher hadn't held his line, what everyone would be talking about would be how Rubens owned him and how he'd lost his edge.
Additionally, it sets a lame precedent: anyone who wants to try a run up the inside has free reign to do so, regardless of leading car positioning, and it's ok to drive off the track to do it.

Schumacher is canny. He drove just enough over to tempt Rubens into going for the inside - which he had to do in order to get by - but without making the mistake of making the outside line better. By the time Rubens got up on him there wasn't room: THAT'S RACING!


#1697 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 14:35

Going for != got.

that's exactly the same as "being squeezed hard"!= "put in the wall"

p.s. i am not defending ms's move, don't worry.

it's just that this topic is getting a little too long for nothing.

#1698 britishtrident

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 14:35

Schumacher drove diagonally across the full width of the straight, and continued to squeeze Rubens after Rubens had got far enough through to have completed the maneuver as normally understood when following the rules of the sport.

Roughly the equivalent in soccer of Schumacher kicking the tackling player in the g+++ies, felling him, then jumping on him once he is down and then threatening his life unless he lets you keep the ball until the end of the match --- some how I don't quite think that is allowed in the the sport codes of soccer in most countries.

Edited by britishtrident, 05 August 2010 - 14:47.


#1699 Jazza

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 14:36

How can people not understand the basic driving rules that MS broke.

1: You can not reactively block another car. That is you can not look in your mirror and move in a way that positions your car in response to the overtakers car. You can choose your line and stick to it, but you can not choose your line in reaction to the car behind choosing their line. MS was clearly looking in his mirror and changing the position of his car in response to the movements of RB. Its blocking and its illegal.

2: You can not slowly drive diagonally across the track. You can pick a line on the outside, middle, inside etc, but you must get in that position and then drive straight. You can not start on the outside and slowly over several seconds move diagonally across the track to the inside. It completely blocks the track as very rarely will an overtaking car have enough speed to make the pass before you have squished them to the side of the track, leaving them to brake or crash. It has the same effect as weaving, as the overtaking car can not dash past before you have covered their part of the track. (Hence why RB nearly ended up in the wall)

3: What can often be a natural result of the two violations above is in effect not changing your line once, but gradually choosing multiple lines as the car moves across the track. Instead of moving from line A to line B (and therefor being one change of line), the practice of responding to the car behind can lead to faster and slower changes of direction creating several different lines between A and B as the car moves to the right, then more to the right, then a bit more right, then a lot more right etc. Just because a car is moving in only 1 direction does not make it only 1 change of line. Going right and left is two changes or line, but going right then more right is still two changes.

3 driving violations and he hasn't even got to the wall yet. :rolleyes:



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#1700 Dunder

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 14:47

Closing the door is closing the door. Does Schumacher get to make a defensive move or not? If every leading driver is responsible for staying out of the way of any car that makes an attempt to pass, then it's just a drag race. It was Ruben's decision to continue to try to pass.


If Schumacher hadn't held his line, what everyone would be talking about would be how Rubens owned him and how he'd lost his edge.
Additionally, it sets a lame precedent: anyone who wants to try a run up the inside has free reign to do so, regardless of leading car positioning, and it's ok to drive off the track to do it.

Schumacher is canny. He drove just enough over to tempt Rubens into going for the inside - which he had to do in order to get by - but without making the mistake of making the outside line better. By the time Rubens got up on him there wasn't room: THAT'S RACING!


Making a defensive move does not cover veering in one direction over the length of the straight.
If Schumacher wished to force Rubens to the outside, he should have moved to the inside and stayed there.

It is not a question who owned who. Rubens just got much better traction out of the last corner and the only thing that Schumacher could do to prevent him form overtaking was to
force him off the track. That's not racing!