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Barrichello/Schumacher Incident


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#251 libano

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 14:52

This forum is pretty laughable. As soon as there's some proper racing action going on (be it from Hamilton, Alonso or Schumacher) people start crying and complaining. This is racing the way it's supposed to be - hard, dangerous and on the edge of reason. If you can't take it, man up or get out. Given the track layout and car safety, there is absolutely no way this could have been a fatal accident. Schumacher played it hard and Rubens showed balls of steel.

Btw., had Barrichello not complained but merely said "I had a job to do and I did it", that would have been infinitely cooler than crying "horrible, black flag".


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#252 ensign14

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 14:52

Like what? shoot.

Schumacher on Hill, Schumacher on Hakkinen, Schumacher on Villeneuve...

#253 arknor

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 14:53

To true Brundle was poor on the BBC then basicly saying yea but Senna was fighting for a championship so its not as bad. Very poor Brundle.

"but it was a different era" was also one of his excuses.

yes it was a very different era one in which safety was poor and people got seriously injured quite often.

the era we are now in is very safe people walk away from serious accidents without any inury whatsoever.

now which one is more dangerous? oh right brundle its the schumacher one :rotfl:

#254 Massa_f1

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 14:53



Webber deserved a penality ? Just because it's MS, you want a penality.. Pathetic.



That there is no different from today

#255 Slowinfastout

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 14:53



Webber deserved a penality ? Just because it's MS, you want a penality.. Pathetic.


I think Webber should have been penalised for that move on Massa.

An acceptable squeeze is when enough room is given, it's a matter of judgment and common sense.

Like when Vettel crashed into Webber, strangely enough that was an acceptable squeeze, enough room was given..

#256 BunnyK

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 14:53

I'm sorry but that's WAY too much squeeze from Schumacher, and I think he'll be penalized.

+1

Too close to the wall for Schumi not being penalized, probably a grid penalty for the next race.

#257 Cheap Wine Alesi

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 14:54

Schumacher on Hill, Schumacher on Hakkinen, Schumacher on Villeneuve...

Dont forget Schumacher on Alonso, Schumacher on Ralf

#258 DFV

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 14:54

German RTL broadcasters and Niki Lauda is very strong in their comments on Schumachers manouvre today. They all condemn it as very dangerous driving.

So, it's not just the anti Schumacher people feeling bad about this. Even the Germans think it was a dangerous move from Schumacher.

#259 the9th

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 14:55

How close did rubens come to the pit wall?! that could have been a huge accident for both drivers.

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#260 PoliFanAthic

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 14:56

he deserves the same penalty others who did the same this eason got.

nothing


This is the fact that has to be kept in mind.

I reckon Schumacher could've chosen a safer approach to that defense, he even should have, but similar maneuvers have occured in the last few years alone and nothing happened.

But of course, it being Schumacher, there's bound to be a penalty.

#261 olliek88

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 14:58

Yes I'm sure he would be. Just like Rubens was with his childish 'twitter me' comments. Every driver would. Especially in an incident so close to 50/50.


your views arent exactly objective "red baron" its clear to any objective person that he went too far, defend hard yes but if rubens hits that pit wall its potentially fatal, the gap shumi left to begin with was hard but fair but then when rubens is alongside him he continues to squeeze him, its the last part of the move thats dangerous and could of caused a massive shunt, it needs to be dealt with now, otherwise people will think its ok to do that and there will be a day as dark as imola '94 again, nobody wants that.

Edited by olliek88, 01 August 2010 - 15:00.


#262 Henrytheeigth

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 14:59

It sure added to the excitement of the race! So kudos to em both. :D

#263 Rurouni

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:00

The move is dangerous. but let just say it happens on a corner with a large run off area.. what would happen? it would be that either Barrichello would run slow on his offtrack excursion and join back behind Schumacher or he would overtake Schumacher while cutting the chicane and he need to give the position back.

In comparison with Kubica vs Alonso at Silverstone, I think Alonso should keep the position instead of being given a penalty.

I don't like that kind of squeezing but at the same time whatever the decision is, the stewards need to be consistent enough whether they choose that kind of squeezing is okay or not.

#264 britishtrident

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:00

German RTL broadcasters and Niki Lauda is very strong in their comments on Schumachers manouvre today. They all condemn it as very dangerous driving.

So, it's not just the anti Schumacher people feeling bad about this. Even the Germans think it was a dangerous move from Schumacher.


The incident had the potential for a car flying into the pits -----not far off the 55 Le Mans disater.
Penalty should be at least an exclusion from Spa --- personally if a steward I would vote for an exclusion for the rest of the season and ask the WMSC to consider a life time ban.

#265 Ashitank

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:01

Schumacher: "I think I left him too much room because he passed."

Very true.



Pathetic , its time some one put him in the wall for good :mad:

#266 ivand911

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:01

Did Rubens have choice? Yes he have choice to back off. Did anyone make him to go against that wall. He have clear choice, lets not cry now. He decided to continue, where is Michael fault here? Did he invite him to come on his right side?

#267 Hairpin

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:02

36 race ban for Schumi. That was the worst thing I have seen in F1, maybe ever.

#268 Anssi

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:02

I think Schumacher pushed it a bit too much and too late but I don't think he should get a penalty for it. Maybe a reprimand would be appropriate.

Oh, and I like Rubens very much. He's been one of my favourites ever since he came to F1.

#269 Boing 2

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:02

The fact is, the fuss is because it's Schumacher.


same tired old defence from the schumacher apologists, "it's all because he's german" "it's all because he's successful"

the guys the filthiest, dirtiest world champion i have ever seen in nearly 25 years of following the sport, no other driver has put as many of his opponents off the track. He's also an utter hypocrite who will talk tough when he's dishing it out but is the first to run whining to the press when he's on the recieving end.

#270 Ashitank

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:04

Thanks for ending the discussion, you chose your words very carefully to your detriment.

It's legal to push a driver TO the wall. It's illegal to push a driver into the wall.

Was Barrichello pushed INTO the wall? No he was not. He didn't hit the wall, there was enough room for an F1 car.



So for you Barichello has to be in the wall for you to agree that was a bad move , because Barrichello missed the wall by few mm. :stoned:

#271 carbonfibre

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:04

same tired old defence from the schumacher apologists, "it's all because he's german" "it's all because he's successful"

the guys the filthiest, dirtiest world champion i have ever seen in nearly 25 years of following the sport, no other driver has put as many of his opponents off the track. He's also an utter hypocrite who will talk tough when he's dishing it out but is the first to run whining to the press when he's on the recieving end.

Haha now that is the funniest thing i have read. If there is one person who isn't whining to the press it's schumacher.

#272 Dunder

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:04

Posted Image

Posted Image

Looking at the above two images, it really depends on whether you consider Schumacher:

a) To have incredible spacial awareness
b) To have been utterly reckless

#273 barrykm

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:04

Outrageous move by MS, especially given where they were - if there was an accident it would have been of aircraft proportions. Rubens was on the inside and was getting past and that's it. If Michael wanted to get back at Rubens he could tried something skillful in the braking zone or with his line into the corner.

There is a difference between robust driving and thuggish driving, and this incident was definitely and deliberately the latter. It deserves some form of severe sanction.

#274 RedBaron

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:04

Did Rubens have choice? Yes he have choice to back off. Did anyone make him to go against that wall. He have clear choice, lets not cry now. He decided to continue, where is Michael fault here? Did he invite him to come on his right side?



Schumacher was hard... but there was a big enough gap as Rubens got through didn't he. Barrichello had a choice, he had a red mist though that he was going to pass Schumacher there and then. He managed to but he had to take a risk to do it. They didn't touch, if Schumacher had forced Rubens into the wall causing a crashing then sure, there's a problem. That didn't happen.

Schumacher moved right, used his one moved before Rubens chose a side... Rubens chose the wrong side because that gap was always going to be reduced.

#275 Vitesse2

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:04

It's really good to see all the armchair experts here who know better than David Coulthard, Martin Brundle, Nico Rosberg and Jenson Button, all of whom have said in various ways that this incident was down to Schumacher.

#276 Urawa

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:05

He's also an utter hypocrite who will talk tough when he's dishing it out but is the first to run whining to the press when he's on the recieving end.


Utter BS

#277 robefc

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:06

Schumacher was hard... but there was a big enough gap as Rubens got through didn't he. Barrichello had a choice, he had a red mist though that he was going to pass Schumacher there and then. He managed to but he had to take a risk to do it. They didn't touch, if Schumacher had forced Rubens into the wall causing a crashing then sure, there's a problem. That didn't happen.

Schumacher moved right, used his one moved before Rubens chose a side... Rubens chose the wrong side because that gap was always going to be reduced.


Why was the gap always going to be reduced if schumacher had already made his move?

#278 Henrytheeigth

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:06

Rubens should of gotten a drive through for leaving the track no? Ok, I'm just joshing lol, but I'm thankful no accident occurred.

#279 Slowinfastout

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:06

I think Schumacher pushed it a bit too much and too late but I don't think he should get a penalty for it. Maybe a reprimand would be appropriate.

Oh, and I like Rubens very much. He's been one of my favourites ever since he came to F1.


A reprimand?

At his age and experience he needs something more harsh to get the message across. He's not a rookie or on a first offense.

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#280 Ashitank

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:07

Glock Italy 08 ?



Lewis mirrors were fogged because of the rain he couldn't see Glock was there. This has already been discussed and every one agreed to the same.


Even still what Micheal tried to pull is totally different than what happened between Lewis and Glock.

#281 RedBaron

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:08

Seeing these photos makes me think if there was grass there Rubens would have lifted off... Rubens chose to use the concrete strip alongside the wall. He chose to take that risk and run off track. Of course he'd run out of space, he chose to run OFF the race track! There isn't space off the track!

Had it been grass Rubens would have been sensible, he took the risk to use space that wasn't on track... it paid off but it was a high risk.

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#282 carbonfibre

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:08

It's really good to see all the armchair experts here who know better than David Coulthard, Martin Brundle, Nico Rosberg and Jenson Button, all of whom have said in various ways that this incident was down to Schumacher.

What incident did an accident happen?

Again it was a very hard move but he didn't do anything illegal. If he "did" run barrichello into the wall then it would have been schumachers fault. People here are talking about things that didn't happen but in their head they think schumacher would have done.

#283 Monad

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:08

You know for a moment there i got the impression Schumi did knowing it was Rubens. It's like he was thinking: "I know this guy, his my bitch, his gonna yield". :)

#284 Motormedia

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:08

A reprimand?

At his age and experience he needs something more harsh to get the message across. He's not a rookie or on a first offense.


He will be doing more of this for free över the next couple of years:

http://www.fiafounda...Villeneuve.aspx

#285 Welsh

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:09

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#286 robefc

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:09

Seeing these photos makes me think if there was grass there Rubens would have lifted off... Rubens chose to use the concrete strip alongside the wall. He chose to take that risk and run off track. Of course he'd run out of space, he chose to run OFF the race track! There isn't space off the track!

Had it been grass Rubens would have been sensible, he took the risk to use space that wasn't on track... it paid off but it was a high risk.


But there was space there until he pulled inside schumi at which point the gap started disappearing!


#287 RedBaron

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:09

Why was the gap always going to be reduced if schumacher had already made his move?


His move was to turn right on this steering wheel, his car was angled towards that wall, so obviously it would reduce. Schumacher didn't move right, go straight, then go right again. He amde one move, to the right.

#288 femi

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:10

I think I left him too much room because he passed - MS


:)

#289 Seanspeed

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:10

The problem occurs when a driver moves to the inside to block, but the passer goes for the inside anyways. Usually, defending to the inside is a way of saying, "Ok, this is my line, you take the outside." But if the straight is wide enough, sometimes you can tell yourself(if you're the passer), "Hey, he moved to the inside, but there's still a gap. I'm going for it." Its not a bad idea, considering you REALLY want to be on the inside going into the corner, and there technically still is a gap left open. So this forces the defending driver to go to the extreme inside as to say, "Dude! You KNEW I committed to defend the inside line!"

I can see both drivers positions, but you'd have to say that Schumi was a bit too aggressive in how he moved over. Watching the Superleague Formula crash at Brands Hatch, it makes it pretty obvious how dangerous that kind of move can be. Most every time, both drivers get through fine, just as it happened with Barrichello and Schumi, but its a reminder that it might not always go so well.

I dont think a penalty is necessary, but I'd like to see the drivers sort this kind of behavior out amongst themselves in their meetings. Or perhaps a strong wording from the stewards to warn the drivers that they're taking it too far now.

Edited by Seanspeed, 01 August 2010 - 15:10.


#290 Slowinfastout

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:10

Posted Image

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Looking at the above two images, it really depends on whether you consider Schumacher:

a) To have incredible spacial awareness
b) To have been utterly reckless


MS' car is where Barrichello's one should be...

MS simply and deliberately pushed Rubens off the track, just need to watch how MS looked at his mirrors for the deliberate part..

Some of you guys need to get real... Schumacher is getting booked for that and rightly so..

Edited by Slowinfastout, 01 August 2010 - 15:13.


#291 robefc

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:11

The problem occurs when a driver moves to the inside to block, but the passer goes for the inside anyways. Usually, defending to the inside is a way of saying, "Ok, this is my line, you take the outside." But if the straight is wide enough, sometimes you can tell yourself, "Hey, he moved to the inside, but there's still a gap. I'm going for it." Its not a bad idea, considering you REALLY want to be on the inside going into the corner, and there technically still is a gap left open. So this forces the defending driver to go to the extreme inside as to say, "Dude! You KNEW I committed to defend the inside line!"

I can see both drivers positions, but you'd have to say that Schumi was a bit too aggressive in how he moved over. Watching the Superleague Formula crash at Brands Hatch, it makes it pretty obvious how dangerous that kind of move can be. Most every time, both drivers get through fine, just as it happened with Barrichello and Schumi, but its a reminder that it might not always go so well.

I dont think a penalty is necessary, but I'd like to see the drivers sort this kind of behavior out amongst themselves in their meetings. Or perhaps a strong wording from the stewards to warn the drivers that they're taking it too far now.


Closest similar example from memory is actually lewis overtaking rubens in brazil last year.

#292 Bloggsworth

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:11

His move was to turn right on this steering wheel, his car was angled towards that wall, so obviously it would reduce. Schumacher didn't move right, go straight, then go right again. He amde one move, to the right.


If you are trying to justify what Schumacher did, then you are flogging a dead horse....... Which will then be served up by the Renault team at a barbecue...

#293 rad787

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:11

Posted Image

Posted Image

Looking at the above two images, it really depends on whether you consider Schumacher:

a) To have incredible spacial awareness
b) To have been utterly reckless


From the pics it seems obvious Rubens is at fault since he chose to go off the track just to overtake Schumi. The left part was free for the taking but he chose to go off track.

#294 Rurouni

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:11

Seeing these photos makes me think if there was grass there Rubens would have lifted off... Rubens chose to use the concrete strip alongside the wall. He chose to take that risk and run off track. Of course he'd run out of space, he chose to run OFF the race track! There isn't space off the track!

Had it been grass Rubens would have been sensible, he took the risk to use space that wasn't on track... it paid off but it was a high risk.


Had it been grass, the overtaking would still be successful but Rubens have to give the position back because he isn't overtaking on the race track.

#295 Monad

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:11

Seeing these photos makes me think if there was grass there Rubens would have lifted off... Rubens chose to use the concrete strip alongside the wall. He chose to take that risk and run off track. Of course he'd run out of space, he chose to run OFF the race track! There isn't space off the track!

Had it been grass Rubens would have been sensible, he took the risk to use space that wasn't on track... it paid off but it was a high risk.



Cut the shit man. Rubens didn't start the overtake move from where your first photo shows. Why don't you show a few previews moments where Rubens got along side him while they where in the middle of the track.  ;)

#296 Tarzaan

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:12



5:15 & 9:17 & 9:21

#297 RedBaron

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:12

But there was space there until he pulled inside schumi at which point the gap started disappearing!


There wasn't space. The race track ends at that white line, Rubens chose to go that close to the wall when he got across that white line.

Like I said had it been grass he wouldn't have been there he would have lifted... Off track is off track whether it's tarmac, grass or water.... it's off track. He shouldn't have tried to pass inside Schumacher off track.

#298 robefc

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:12

His move was to turn right on this steering wheel, his car was angled towards that wall, so obviously it would reduce. Schumacher didn't move right, go straight, then go right again. He amde one move, to the right.


I'm not sure I agree with that, I thought he moved to the inside line and then started moving over again when rubens made his move.

#299 Wolbo

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:12

I don't know how anyone can say this is within the rules. The white line is the edge of the track, not the wall. MS had his right tyres beside that very line. At that stage he had pushed RB of the track and the rules were broken. (This goes for every other driver who has done the same thing. So thats no excuse.) How RB's right tyres didn't hit that wall I do not know. There is no way at that speed and that small of a gap any human could react. It was nothing but blind luck that RB didn't misjudge it by a few centimeters to the right.

That pretty much sums up how I look at it. Tough racing is fine, it's a man's sport, but this came very close to manslaughter and it was simply uncalled for. You don't put another driver into lethal danger like that. It wouldn't be right if it were a decisive moment for the championship, it certainly isn't right when fighting over a single point at Hungaroring. And to top it of Schumacher has the audacity to blatantly lie about it in front of the camera. The man never had any shame and never will.

Edited by Wolbo, 01 August 2010 - 15:13.


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#300 arknor

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:13

MS' car is where Barrichello's one should be...

MS simply and deliberately pushed Rubens off the track, just need to watch how MS looked at his mirrors for the deliberate part..

arent they those same mirrors drivers have been saying are useless for years?

guess you know more than us though seeing as you are an f1 driver