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Barrichello/Schumacher Incident


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#401 eoin

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:52

Right call, deserved a penalty. I just hope the stewards are more consistent and punish similar moves in future, as they haven't always done in the past.

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#402 gm914

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:52

10 place grid penalty not harsh enough. This could've ended tragically...

You think the new teams & the Toro Rosso's are going to let him through the pack so easily off the start in Spa? Not when he's seen as a 'trophy' for the young drivers.

I can see MS in a shunt on Lap 1. Not that he should even be in the race. IMO

#403 stevvy1986

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:53

Very lucky they didn't make contact and have a big crash. To be honest had they made contact and crashed, I think we'd have seen a ban for Schumacher (I'm not saying he should be, but that's just my opinion as to any resultant penalty that may have been given out had they made contact and crashed).

Edited by stevvy1986, 01 August 2010 - 15:54.


#404 DanardiF1

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:54

Funny reason. Illegitimately impeded Car 9 when it was overtaking. What was Schumi to do? Let go of Rubens that easy. Geesh. Moves like this were not even investigated in the past. Hypocrites.


This is no worse than Webber vs Massa in Fuji 2008, or even Alonso and Webber in Spain last year...

If they punish Schumacher, then they should punish Rubens for pursuing a gap that wasn't there...

#405 rad787

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:55

Funny thing is no one here acknowledges that Rubens made a risky move to the inside line and when there was no more track for him to go as he knew MS would defend by going to the right, it was his obligation to brake and go back to the track. The wall is clouding most people's judgment on this one. The white line of the track is being forgotten.

Then again, I've given up on the hypocrisy of the stewards. If it's MS, a penalty should be given, if it is others, not even a hint of investigation. Utter Hypocrites.

#406 Gilles12

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:55

Nature is red in tooth and claw

And so is top flight motor racing

All good stuff

#407 ffiloseta

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:56

Can't the brainwashed Schumacher fans on this forum just for once accept that your man drove dangerously this afternoon ?


It was dangerous. So were all the moves already mentioned by Hamilton, Webber, Vettel, etc. What made this particular move so noticeable is that it was made by MS on an enraged Barrichello. If you read Barrichello's comments on this you'll find that he himself states that he usually would have taken other avenues, just "not today". But it appears that people don't consider an F1 driver that lets himself be steamrolled by his emotions to be VERY dangerous.

On the other hand, this is supposed to be Formula One, it is supposed to be dangerous. I thought this was the reason all the other blocks and chops were never penalized. I was wrong, of course. Weclome to blandness. What's next, get rid of drivers altogether?

Edited by ffiloseta, 01 August 2010 - 15:56.


#408 Longtimefan

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:56

10 Place drop is a bit excessive tbh..

lets see if they give the same to Vettel, Webber, Alonso or Hamilton when next they do it..



I suspect not..

#409 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:56

We've had :

Eddie Jordan
Martin Brundle
Alex Wurtz
DC
Jenson Button
The four Stewards
AND over 80% of the voters on James Allen's site

All state unreservedly that MS was right out of order and Alex Wurtz, former Steward and GPDA Chairman was particularly scathing.

Can't the brainwashed Schumacher fans on this forum just for once accept that your man drove dangerously this afternoon ?

Does he have to kill someone before you will accept he ever does anything wrong ?

we had about the same in monaco for MS and he still got a penalty
so it's pretty useless


in my view they both deserved a penalty, but only to enforce such actions also in the future. webber did the same, barrichello did the same to lewis, hamilton pushed glock out, vettel does it at a lot of starts

and if you ask why did rubens deserve a penalty also..it's for the way he's chosen to get back into the track counting michael would give him room. his tarmac was ending in front and just jinxed left. if you can't squeeze somebody out you should not allow this either

#410 Motormedia

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:56

This is no worse than Webber vs Massa in Fuji 2008, or even Alonso and Webber in Spain last year...

If they punish Schumacher, then they should punish Rubens for pursuing a gap that wasn't there...


I'm not sure, but what made it this time could have been the fact that Rubens was pushed out of the track. In any case, Webber, Kobayashi and a host of other drivers should also have been punished in the past. I'm just happy that this penalty might set a new, slightly more safe precedence for the future.

#411 Urawa

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:56

The penalty is okay. What´s not okay: Similar situations in the past were unpunished and I guess that will also happen from today on

#412 mkay

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:57

These are the best two screenshots. Rubens was committed to the inside already, at which point it is Schumacher obligation to give him the room and allow for fair racing.

As you can see, he kept going in the knowledge he was committed to the move (had an overlap), as proven by the fact that he is looking in the mirrors at all times. From the first picture to the second, he has moved an entire car-length towards Rubens while Rubens was already there. Madness.

Unacceptable and unbelievably dangerous. If Rubens had hit the wall, Schumacher may well have got a race ban, not to mention Rubens would have speared into Michael and they would have both slid down into the turn one runoff, Rubens probably upside-down. To say that "nothing happened, nobody died" is like not fixing an evident problem with a plane that could cost lives.



Wurz was the GPDA head for a while and an experienced driver. Anybody who disagrees with such in-depth knowledge and experience is in denial. The FIA have made a great statement and set the precedent. This is the safest way to go about it.


Really? Source?!

MSC raced hard but he was fair. He did leave RB enough room. RB is known for his public b*tching so it isn't a surprise to see him b*tching again... especially against the driver who has owned him for 6 seasons...

#413 DanardiF1

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:57

Funny thing is no one here acknowledges that Rubens made a risky move to the inside line and when there was no more track for him to go as he knew MS would defend by going to the right, it was his obligation to brake and go back to the track. The wall is clouding most people's judgment on this one. The white line of the track is being forgotten.

Then again, I've given up on the hypocrisy of the stewards. If it's MS, a penalty should be given, if it is others, not even a hint of investigation. Utter Hypocrites.

+1

Schumacher makes one move to the right... not sudden but gradual. This has closed the door to Rubens, who decides very late on in the 'move' that he needs to be on the inside at all costs... he goes for this gap and then uses the pitlane exit to overtake... very risky and dangerous from both of them really, but more so Rubens I'd say as he was the 'aggressor'.

#414 undersquare

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:57

Should've been a ban. We really don't want that in F1.

#415 Tifosi90

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:58

I'd like to see starts like Vettel's recent ones punished. Maybe you could start a seperate thread/poll about that - we are talking about today's incident here.


Why would I do that for?. Just reading this thread is making me sick with hypocrisy. This is not the first time something like this has happened, only difference is Vettel & Mark have not got as many haters as Schumi so no one complains when Vettel or Webber do those things.

Making another thread about this is pointless, we already know the results. As I said Hypocrisy at it's best. :lol:

#416 ffiloseta

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:58

Funny thing is no one here acknowledges that Rubens made a risky move to the inside line and when there was no more track for him to go as he knew MS would defend by going to the right, it was his obligation to brake and go back to the track. The wall is clouding most people's judgment on this one. The white line of the track is being forgotten.

Then again, I've given up on the hypocrisy of the stewards. If it's MS, a penalty should be given, if it is others, not even a hint of investigation. Utter Hypocrites.



Word :up:

#417 ivand911

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:58

I remember Lewis "illegitimately impeding" Petrov this year. What penalty he get? Reprimand.

#418 GiancarloF1

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:59

Pathetic penalty. They really want Schumacher to retire. First came the Monaco farce, then this. Did Webber get a penalty for Brazil 2009? :confused:

#419 MPea3

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:59

The FIA allowed this situation to get out of hand years ago. Cutting people off and running them off the track has become such the norm that many no longer see any problem with it. I hope they'll crack down even more and put a stop to this, regardless of who it is.

As far as Michael is concerned, of course he doesn't think he did anything wrong, has he ever?

As far as whoever it was earlier in the thread who said that the RC has gone down compared to what it once was, you either haven't been here long or you have a short memory. Look up any old thread regarding Schumacher, Villeneuve or Alesi. The names may change but the quality of many posts on this - or any - bulletin board has always been this bad.

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#420 Jazza

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:59

This. Ignorance is not an excuse in an F1 race, for ignorance is a grave crime itself.


Yes. He played that card in Canada 98, which was also potentially very dangerous. If this was ignorance he should have his license removed. If on purpose... At least more than a 10 grid penalty.

#421 Slowinfastout

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 16:01

Really? Source?!

MSC raced hard but he was fair. He did leave RB enough room. RB is known for his public b*tching so it isn't a surprise to see him b*tching again... especially against the driver who has owned him for 6 seasons...


The white line is what you should look for the 'enough room' bit...

-There was enough room when Rubens first got alongside MS.

-MS squeezed Rubens all the way off the track, which is wrong.

You can squeeze while giving enough room and you'll have compromised the guy's line into the next corner, he'll have gained the inside but he's gonna have to brake off line.

That's fair racing.

#422 Rurouni

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 16:02

You obviously need to apply for a job as an FIA steward, as they completely disagree with your opinion.

Because FIA steward is inconsistent. How do you view Kubica squeezing Alonso at Silverstone? The fact that Alonso had to give the position back but Barichello didn't is inconsistent.
Yes, I don't deny it's dangerous.. But the 'correct' move for Barichello would be to back off when the whole car goes outside of the white line. The fact that Barichello choose to force his way and made it look dangerous was his own choice.
Now, if this happen in place where you can race near to the wall like Monaco or Montreal, then yeah, Schumacher move is wrong and should be punished... but since it wasn't, then it goes into this grey area where some people blaming Schumacher and other think it is just a hard racing.

I personaly don't like when a driver push another driver off the track, but we see many times that this goes unpunished. Again, the key is consistency on the FIA part.

#423 rad787

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 16:03

Hypocrisy aside, which part of the regulations allow the stewards to impose that penalty? From what I recall, the penalties they can impose are limited.

#424 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 16:03

The white line is what you should look for the 'enough room' bit...

-There was enough room when Rubens first got alongside MS.

-MS squeezed Rubens all the way off the track, which is wrong.

You can squeeze while giving enough room and you'll have compromised the guy's line into the next corner, he'll have gained the inside but he's gonna have to brake off line.

That's fair racing.

perfectly good reasoning, I agree if that was enforeced before
do you have a replay of the hockenheim start?
i thought that was idiotic too but it was not even investigated.
and this was only to go 7 days before

double standards?


#425 Tolyngee

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 16:03

+1

Schumacher makes one move to the right... not sudden but gradual. This has closed the door to Rubens, who decides very late on in the 'move' that he needs to be on the inside at all costs... he goes for this gap and then uses the pitlane exit to overtake... very risky and dangerous from both of them really, but more so Rubens I'd say as he was the 'aggressor'.


Especially since RB previously said on the radio that he expected MS to do that, and was going to go there anyway regardless...

Reckless when there's all that track to the left that MS now cannot move to...



RB could take some pointers from some fellow Brazilians...

#426 Tarzaan

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 16:04

We've had :

Eddie Jordan
Martin Brundle
Alex Wurtz
DC
Jenson Button

The four Stewards
AND over 80% of the voters on James Allen's site

All state unreservedly that MS was right out of order and Alex Wurtz, former Steward and GPDA Chairman was particularly scathing.

Can't the brainwashed Schumacher fans on this forum just for once accept that your man drove dangerously this afternoon ?

Does he have to kill someone before you will accept he ever does anything wrong ?



I nice bounch of born loosers...

#427 Boing 2

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 16:05

This is no worse than Webber vs Massa in Fuji 2008, or even Alonso and Webber in Spain last year...

If they punish Schumacher, then they should punish Rubens for pursuing a gap that wasn't there...


Really, what's the term for that large space to the right with no car in it then?

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#428 Disgrace

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 16:05

I remember Lewis "illegitimately impeding" Petrov this year. What penalty he get? Reprimand.


Hamilton defended his slipstream down the straight, within the confines of the racing circuit, before Petrov was even making a move to overtake. This was weaving, hence reprimand.

Schumacher defended his position, pushing Barrichello outside the confines of the racing circuit, after Barrichello had committed down the inside and had an overlap.

Hamilton drove fresh air into fresh air, Schumacher drove Barrichello into a concrete wall.

Apples and oranges.

#429 mistareno

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 16:06

In relation to the MW and FM incident.

Perhaps you guys need to go and watch the tapes properly...

MW goes right very early on to cover the inside. MW is over the RH grid boxes and there is just over a car and a half width available on the inside. Massa still decides to go to the inside and MW gives him room.

What makes the MW/FM incident look even remotely similar is the fact that the pit line deviates sharply towards the left of the track after the pit exit which makes it look as though MW turns in on FM as they clear the pit wall.

There was always a car and a half between MW and the wall witnessed by the fact FM barely even has to steer to complete the pass.



In the MS and RB incident, MS is non committal and smack in the middle of the track prior to RB going right. RB goes to the right.

MS tries to cover the line (which he is entitled to do) but is too slow and RB still gets alongside. It is at this point, most normal sane people would give their fellow competitor (and man) racing room.

MS then basically tries to give the RB the option of 'yield' or hit the concrete wall. He is no longer covering his line at this point as RB is alongside. He is just being plain stupid.

MS then gives RB about 1.01 car widths of track between himself and the wall and then upon clearing the wall tries to hold his line in an attempt to hang RB out to dry by forcing him into the grass. MS only yeilds when RB and is infront and there is a risk that RB might turn in on him (to avoid hitting the grass/wall beyond).





#430 Massa

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 16:06

So here is the thread for those that are curious

http://forums.autosp...hl=webber massa

Let's see if there is any hypocrisy or not.



Thanks a lot

#431 Diablobb81

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 16:06

And of course if it wouldn't have been between "good boy" Rubens and "bad boy" Michael it wouldn't have been even investigated.

Once again, this season has proved that whining by drivers can get them far. But in this case in the end he's still a loser.

#432 Urawa

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 16:06

Hamilton defended his slipstream down the straight, within the confines of the racing circuit, before Petrov was even making a move to overtake. This was weaving, hence reprimand.

Schumacher defended his position, pushing Barrichello outside the confines of the racing circuit, after Barrichello had committed down the inside and had an overlap.

Hamilton drove fresh air into fresh air, Schumacher drove Barrichello into a concrete wall.

Apples and oranges.



Don´t make me laugh

#433 MPea3

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 16:07

I nice bounch of born loosers...


My bad. I stand corrected. Michael was completely right in what he did. There's no reason to listen to the opinions of F1 drivers, team owners and respected journalists when I can just rely on the sound judgement of someoen who can't spell either "loser" or "Tarzan".

#434 Disgrace

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 16:07

I nice bounch of born loosers...


Right, so their lifetime achievements judge the validity of their opinions.

Given that we both are on this forum and not out in the world doing something amazing, perhaps we should both stop talking immediately.

Using your logic, of course.

#435 rad787

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 16:07

The white line is what you should look for the 'enough room' bit...

-There was enough room when Rubens first got alongside MS.

-MS squeezed Rubens all the way off the track, which is wrong.

You can squeeze while giving enough room and you'll have compromised the guy's line into the next corner, he'll have gained the inside but he's gonna have to brake off line.

That's fair racing.


Nope. MS moved to close that gap, and Rubens chose to go off track and maintain his speed. If it were grass on the right, Rubens would have braked and went to the other side. It was Rubens' choice to risk it and go off track. He could have braked. He didn't. Rubens treated the off track road as part of the track and decided to bitch about it afterwards. There was no more room for him and he should have braked and backed off. Bitching about how dangerous it was without acknowledging that he put himself in that situation is the height of CRYBABINESS. Pathetic.

#436 JPW

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 16:07

That's the only penalty that would have any chance of keeping him in line

Not a chance that's the racing beast that is inside big Schumi, next one to pull on the inside will have the scare of his life too but likely it won't be a whiner like Rubens.

No harm no foul and Michael, now probably comfortably seated in his private jet towards Suisse, will not have any second thoughts about it.

At best he'll think "what a bunch of whiners" and I'll agree to that :lol:

#437 Tolyngee

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 16:08

MS only yeilds when RB and is infront and there is a risk that RB might turn in on him (to avoid hitting the grass/wall beyond).


Well, at least MS shows himself to be smarter than Webber at Turkey and risk removing himself or RB from the race...

#438 fnz

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 16:08

I nice bounch of born loosers...


All of them accomplished more in F1 compared to you. And I'm pretty sure they know more about it as well.

#439 Slowinfastout

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 16:09

perfectly good reasoning, I agree if that was enforeced before
do you have a replay of the hockenheim start?
i thought that was idiotic too but it was not even investigated.
and this was only to go 7 days before

double standards?


I didn't like what Vettel did but I don't think it's the exact same thing...

Plus, and it's not a rebuttal, the starts are usually considered a bit differently, there is so much going on that the drivers are given more slack...

IMO Japan '08 is the other incident that makes this ruling kind of a precedent... might also explain the lenient penalty.

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#440 Diablobb81

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 16:09

And I'm pretty sure they know more about it as well.



And we know from history that they love Michael so much.

#441 ensign14

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 16:10

I nice bounch of born loosers...

An F1 World Champion, a Sportscar World Champion, a score of F1 wins and a few Le Mans wins amongst that lot. Yes, born "loosers" indeed.

#442 dustybloke

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 16:10

There was a gap when Rubens started his move.

By the time Schu had finished moving to the right:

a) their wheels were interlocked - neither driver could change position or brake or accelerate without launching the other into the air

b) Rubens was going to hit the pit wall - fortunately the pit wall ended just in time.

If the pit wall hadn't ended where it did, or Rubens was 8 inches more to the right, the medical crew, the safety car and all the marshals at that end of the pits were in mortal danger, as well as Rubens.

Anyone posting here who thinks that that is acceptable driving needs to stop watching F1 and start watching cage fighting.

#443 mkay

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 16:10

Right, so their lifetime achievements judge the validity of their opinions.

Given that we both are on this forum and not out in the world doing something amazing, perhaps we should both stop talking immediately.

Using your logic, of course.


They aren't objective anyway. All the F1 pundits/ex-drivers are out there for blood, in MSC's case.

Furthermore, MSC left enough room cause otherwise RB wouldn't have passed him! Lastly, it was RB's decision to go to the right, MSC left the door wide open on his left side.


#444 olliek88

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 16:10

Really? Source?!

MSC raced hard but he was fair. He did leave RB enough room. RB is known for his public b*tching so it isn't a surprise to see him b*tching again... especially against the driver who has owned him for 6 seasons...


Maybe, but rubens "owned" shumi today didn't he.

#445 ensign14

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 16:11

And we know from history that they love Michael so much.

It's funny, isn't it, how so many people seem to dislike Michael because they have had run-ins with him while racing? It's almost as if Schumacher has a habit of pushing people off track for so many people to dislike him.

#446 santori

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 16:11

Bitching about how dangerous it was without acknowledging that he put himself in that situation is the height of CRYBABINESS. Pathetic.


Michael used to accuse other drivers of trying to kill him.

#447 libano

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 16:11

Should've been a ban. We really don't want that in F1.


speak for yourself.

#448 JackTorrance

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 16:11

36 race ban for Schumi. That was the worst thing I have seen in F1, maybe ever.



I rate Diniz going into Alesi Hockenheim 1998 at 220mph worse.

And this example being very bad, a lot of drivers do it. Didnt Rubens himself squeeze a car to the wall on the brasil straight last year?

#449 kismet

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 16:12

Whether or not it's explicitly prohibited by the rules, I think it's quite simply bad form to push people to within a couple of inches of a concrete wall at 300 kph. That leaves very little room for errors in judgment - probably too little if the visibility out of an average F1 cockpit really is as restricted as people are making it out to be. Technically, enough room may have been given (obviously ignoring those pesky white lines) since there was no car/car or car/wall contact, but was that by dumb luck and fortunate circumstances or was Rubens simply displaying a reasonable minimum level of spatial awareness, skill and whatnot expected of anyone in his position? I think that's something that needs to be considered rather than sweeping the whole incident under a "Nothing happened so it's all good" carpet.

Edited by kismet, 01 August 2010 - 16:43.


#450 mistareno

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 16:12

Well, at least MS shows himself to be smarter than Webber at Turkey and risk removing himself or RB from the race...


The difference being that the track wasn't about to end for the SV and hence MW had no reason to move over (other than to make it easier for his team mate of course - which he probably should've)