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Vettel pit entry - is that legal?


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#1 patgaw

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 14:14

Simple question, as above.
I want to know what regulations say, not what stewards are doing/thinking.

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#2 Henrytheeigth

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 14:17

That and the SC saga should of seen Vet have a stop go imho lol..I mean why not...

#3 Sausage

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 14:17

It is legal. And Hamilton did much worse in China anyway.

#4 F.M.

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 14:17

Simple question, as above.
I want to know what regulations say, not what stewards are doing/thinking.

Yup it is!

Remember Hamilton in China? Same stuff, perfectly legal :)

#5 F.M.

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 14:17

That and the SC saga should of seen Vet have a stop go imho lol..I mean why not...

SImple, because he didn't deserve one

#6 Henrytheeigth

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 14:18

SImple, because he didn't deserve one


I think he did, lucky I aint a race steward or id target vet always :lol:

#7 Slowinfastout

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 14:20

The pit exit is where the penalties are...

Vettel nearly took care of himself there, could easily have damaged his car..

#8 YellowHelmet

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 14:22

i dont know any rule who forbids that (he hasnt endanger anybody!)

#9 Touti

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 14:23

It's nothing compared to how Alonso cut Massa to enter the pit lane earlier this season. If FA wasn't penalized for that I don't see why Vettel should be for today.

#10 stevewf1

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 14:26

Isn't everything illegal?


#11 domhnall

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 14:27

It's legal in f1 but some other categories of racing do not allow you to cut the white line on pot entry.

#12 Hole

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 14:28

No it isn't legal. 40.7 rule if I'm not mistaken.

#13 Henrytheeigth

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 14:28

The pit exit is where the penalties are...

Vettel nearly took care of himself there, could easily have damaged his car..


Yea true, coz see how everyone crossed that white line in the pit entry lane at Silverstone, no probs....

#14 Hole

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 14:30

It's nothing compared to how Alonso cut Massa to enter the pit lane earlier this season. If FA wasn't penalized for that I don't see why Vettel should be for today.


Not the same. Alonso didn't went from the track to the pit lane crossing the white lanes. He just went outside of the white line when he was already in the pit lane. In practive as when a car leaves the track and goes back.

#15 Hippo

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 14:55

If I'm not mistaken Fernando was once penalized or at least reprimanded for doing the same thing in Valencia. Vettel was lucky not to be treated equally.

#16 engel

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:56

Nope, precedent is China, Alonso and Hamilton both entered the pits through the grass, completely ignoring the entry, no penalties.

#17 patgaw

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:59

Nope, precedent is China, Alonso and Hamilton both entered the pits through the grass, completely ignoring the entry, no penalties.


that is why I asked about regulations not stewards' approach.

#18 apoka

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 15:59

Vettel nearly took care of himself there, could easily have damaged his car..

But getting into the pits seemed crucial at that stage. No one could know that the softs would last that long, so a lot of drivers could have jumped him after the SC phase.

Edited by apoka, 01 August 2010 - 16:00.


#19 engel

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 16:03

that is why I asked about regulations not stewards' approach.



Regulations state that you have to stay within the track at all times as defined by the white lines, same applies to the pit entry the part between the white lines is considered "track" ... but that means straightlining the pit entry at any point = offense, and there are tracks where everybody does it.

It's one of those rules that doesn't really get enforced, they are stricter about observing the pit exit lines, mostly cause there you can have nasty accidents

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#20 billfenner1967

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 16:05

We all know that cars must stay inside the white lines coming out of the pit lane, so why not force them to stay inside the white lines as they enter the pit lane too? Seems sensible. Extend those white lines a bit more for the entry and make it law that they mustn't cross them coming in or out.

Although, given what a hump that curb was coming in, it did cross my mind how funny it would look if Vettel had beached himself on top of that. Just to see him balancing there, like a see saw would have been the single most embarrassing retirement in the history of F1.

#21 goldenboy

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 16:06

there was no one around so who cares?????? It's just being pedantic and fans wanting anything they can against their fave drivers competitors. I also think it was pretty rough for vettel to get the drive thru, but it does make sense. If webber had a moment and went off and lost 10 seconds or something alonso may have been able to pass him if it was restarted under the rules properly by vettel i spose, so i can understand it. but the pit entry thing is a bit ridiculous to complain about especially if he's out on his own

#22 rolf123

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 16:12

Nope, precedent is China, Alonso and Hamilton both entered the pits through the grass, completely ignoring the entry, no penalties.


Precedent does not always apply in F1. We all know this.


#23 ensign14

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 16:15

Legal, quick thinking, he took a bit of a risk but it nearly paid off.

#24 Hippo

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 16:19

Nope, precedent is China, Alonso and Hamilton both entered the pits through the grass, completely ignoring the entry, no penalties.

Wrong. Fernando didn't cut over the white line in China as Vettel did today. The Spaniard entered the pitlane side by side with Massa. He didn't drive through grass either. Don't quite remember about Hamilton's pitlane entry.

The precedent was Valencia 2008 I think. Fernando chose to enter pitlane extremely late, driving over the shaded area - exactly as Vettel did today. It was in free practice or something. The local hero was fined some bucks or reprimanded, don't remember exactly.

#25 rolf123

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 16:33

Wrong. Fernando didn't cut over the white line in China as Vettel did today. The Spaniard entered the pitlane side by side with Massa. He didn't drive through grass either. Don't quite remember about Hamilton's pitlane entry.

The precedent was Valencia 2008 I think. Fernando chose to enter pitlane extremely late, driving over the shaded area - exactly as Vettel did today. It was in free practice or something. The local hero was fined some bucks or reprimanded, don't remember exactly.


Valencia was totally different. Fernando not only went over the broken yellow lines but he pretty much passed the entry point and decided to turn back to make it again. Almost as bad as going the wrong way down the track. He changed his mind at the last moment - in terms of actual laptime he lost time rather than gained it. This situation cannot be compared IMO.

#26 segedunum

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 16:56

Not it isn't legal, but you seem to get away with it on entry more than exit.

#27 Mastah

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 17:26

Posted Image

http://argent.fia.co...6... L 2010.pdf

I'm pretty much sure only crossing the line DIRECTLY separating the pit entry and the track is prohibited, like in Valencia or Fuji and it's absolutely legal to pull "a Sebastian" at Hungaroring, Nurburgring or Barcelona.

#28 patgaw

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 17:39

Point 4d is clear. It is illegal, opposite as most people here claims.
Thx Mastah.

#29 jeze

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 17:45

I remember Räikkönen missing the pit entrance at Nürburgring while leading for Ferrari in '07, so these things could happen :wave:

The entry is legal - provided you don't risk anything for other drivers (cutting across the track into someone else...) Vettel didn't, Hamilton didn't in China, so that's legal.

#30 P123

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 18:05

Nope, precedent is China, Alonso and Hamilton both entered the pits through the grass, completely ignoring the entry, no penalties.


Erm, precedent has been every year in Barcelona, or Nurburgring. Or Hungary, etc, etc.

#31 GrzegorzChyla

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 19:35

Point 4d is clear. It is illegal

I do agree it is illegal (or at last it should be) but...

isn't SC a force majeure?

I do realize I am starting an academic discussion, but...
what is a definition of force majeure?

Of course, SC deployment is done as a consequence of a case of force majeure,
but does it mean that SC deployment itself is a force majeure?

#32 engel

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 19:42

Erm, precedent has been every year in Barcelona, or Nurburgring. Or Hungary, etc, etc.



I was talking about the most recent obvious case ...

#33 timmy bolt

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 21:25

Do people really want such things to be illegal? it isn't dangerous or beneficial to the driver. If anything he could only damage his own car.

After the Mosely years people are fed up for penalties for very minor issues like this.

Edited by timmy bolt, 01 August 2010 - 21:28.


#34 PayasYouRace

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:43

The precedent was Valencia 2008 I think. Fernando chose to enter pitlane extremely late, driving over the shaded area - exactly as Vettel did today. It was in free practice or something. The local hero was fined some bucks or reprimanded, don't remember exactly.


I was going to mention that. I think it was in practise and a punishment was given.


Edit:What about Kubica in Canada? That was a similar case of cutting the white line on pitlane entry and that was pretty dangerous.


In NASCAR they have "commitment cones" prior to the pit entrances, at least on road courses. I remember it at Watkins Glen. If the driver passes that cone he has to stick to the path he's chosen or get a penalty. So if you make for the pitlane you can't pull back on track at the last minute, or vice-versa, which could be dangerous.

Edited by PayasYouRace, 01 August 2010 - 22:49.


#35 Melbourne Park

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Posted 01 August 2010 - 22:58

Just another case of the rules not being applied. I do not see any difference in severity between rules d and e (one entering one leaving). The difference with the exit, is that they use "any line". But the line for entering the pits was crossed. I presume that if the driver had been prevented from entering the pits by another car, and the prevented driver had entered the pits the way Vettel did, then that would be excusable due to force majeure. But the SC is not such a situation, and neither are the driver's team's tactical calls.

From a race justice point however, SCs stink. But then from a race justice point, the lack of overtaking ability stinks even more IMO.

Edited by Melbourne Park, 01 August 2010 - 22:59.


#36 goldenboy

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 00:59

Do people really want such things to be illegal? it isn't dangerous or beneficial to the driver. If anything he could only damage his own car.

After the Mosely years people are fed up for penalties for very minor issues like this.

:up: :up: :up:
exactly I think it was commonsense to let him get away with it, there was no danger to anyone. he didn't get an advantage out of it.

#37 Lifew12

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:20

Point 4d is clear. It is illegal, opposite as most people here claims.
Thx Mastah.


It's not clear at all, it has a proviso that provides an exception with the clear indication if the stewards accept it then it's perfectly legal. The stewards accepted it, therefore it's legal.

I can't agree with the comment by 'timmy bolt' enough - I'm sick of 'fans' clamouring for penalties for every such thing. The less the better.

#38 Massacrator

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:45

How is SC a force majeure?

Vettel could have not pitted and it would have been safe for everyone.

Force majeure would have been blowing up engine/tyre/front wing/etc (for example) in the last moment and having to cross the white line to get into the pits and replace the element/retire...

#39 Hippo

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:45

Posted Image

http://argent.fia.co...6... L 2010.pdf

Thank you for linking the part of the rules, that actually say it's illegal. :p


Do people really want such things to be illegal?

No, not really. But what really bothers me is that rules like this one get interpreted differently. That's what I call injustice. You cannot punish Fernando on the basis of a rule and then just ignore other drivers doing the same thing.


(edit: "force majeure" here means if a legal entry/exit is impossible, because the pitlane is blocked for example by a car that broke down and stranded there. A driver deciding to enter pit too late is not "force majeure". It's bad timing or simply a drivers mistake.)


Btw, someone mentioned Kimi at Nürburgring 2007. That was different. He already had entered the pitlane but was too fast for the track conditions and slid off the pitlane, entering the regular track outside of the barrier with no chance to get back into the pitlane again. Was quite funny to watch actually.

Edited by Hippo, 02 August 2010 - 08:48.


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#40 engel

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 08:53

Thank you for linking the part of the rules, that actually say it's illegal. :p



No, not really. But what really bothers me is that rules like this one get interpreted differently. That's what I call injustice. You cannot punish Fernando on the basis of a rule and then just ignore other drivers doing the same thing.


(edit: "force majeure" here means if a legal entry/exit is impossible, because the pitlane is blocked for example by a car that broke down and stranded there. A driver deciding to enter pit too late is not "force majeure". It's bad timing or simply a drivers mistake.)


Btw, someone mentioned Kimi at Nürburgring 2007. That was different. He already had entered the pitlane but was too fast for the track conditions and slid off the pitlane, entering the regular track outside of the barrier with no chance to get back into the pitlane again. Was quite funny to watch actually.



Fernando was punished for effectively going the wrong way around the track to get into the pitlane, can't you people get any amount of objectivity ?

#41 Hippo

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 09:03

Fernando was punished for effectively going the wrong way around the track to get into the pitlane, can't you people get any amount of objectivity ?

Stop spilling such bullsh!t. He was punished for crossing the line/shaded area.

(if you're a subscriber you can also have the news on autosports site.)

Edited by Hippo, 02 August 2010 - 09:06.


#42 engel

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 09:19

Stop spilling such bullsh!t. He was punished for crossing the line/shaded area.

(if you're a subscriber you can also have the news on autosports site.)


he missed the entry and effectively went against the flow off traffic to get into the pits. it was once again, that magic word, blatant that's why he was punished.

And stop spewing your propaganda you have Alonso blinders ... like your previous statement about "the spaniard not crossing any white line" in China 2010 ... ... those big fat lines he put his 4 wheels over aren't really lines, they are figments of my imagination.

Why do I bother arguing with fanbois ...

Edited by engel, 02 August 2010 - 09:20.


#43 JackTorrance

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 09:30

Do people really want such things to be illegal? it isn't dangerous or beneficial to the driver. If anything he could only damage his own car.

After the Mosely years people are fed up for penalties for very minor issues like this.


Vettel made a minor breach of the safety car rules and lost the race.

If you did that in the Mosley years, eventhough it wouldv caused a crash between two cars, the breach wouldv been ignored and rules changed after the race (China 2007).

#44 Gareth

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 09:34

A week after criticism by Lobato and the like for the British press supposedly campaigning against Alonso, I found this snippet amusing from the post race conference:

Q. (Carlos Miquel – Diario AS) [...] about the rule to enter the pits? Do you think it's Ok to cross the kerb at the pit lane entrance?



#45 timmy bolt

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 10:02

Vettel made a minor breach of the safety car rules and lost the race.

If you did that in the Mosley years, eventhough it wouldv caused a crash between two cars, the breach wouldv been ignored and rules changed after the race (China 2007).


We talking about Vettel holding up the pack? if so...

The difference between the two is that Vettel's actions benefitted Webber considerably, effectively giving him and extra second or two when Webbers next stint was about pulling a gap which a second or two could have been the difference between first and second/third. In hindsight we know it wouldn't have made a difference and that Vettel wasn't told to hold up the cars, simply a mistake, but thats with hindsight. After all the criticism the stewards have received recently for delaying, they couldn't wait to see it all pan out before giving the penalty. The big difference between this and Vettel entering the pits over the white line was because there was no benefit to Vettel, his team, or any other car, for taking this course of action.

#46 segedunum

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 11:01

Yes it was illegal just like Alonso and Hamilton's entries into the pitlane in China.

I wish they would clear this up and give penalties in accordance with the regulations. The only time it ever seems to happen is on the pit exit.

#47 Gareth

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 11:05

It's an odd rule on the pit entrance, though. It refers to the line seperating the pit exit from the track.

There are kind of 3 bits of line (iirc) in the Hungary entrance:

1. a dashed line that seperates the pit entrance from the track

2. a solid white line that seperates the pit entrance from the track

3. a double solid white line that seperates the pit entrance from the hashed (non track) area and the track from the hashed (non track) area

The rules would suggest that crossing line 2 is illegal but line 3 maybe not illegal? Which would be odd, but there you go.

#48 prty

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 11:26

he missed the entry and effectively went against the flow off traffic to get into the pits. it was once again, that magic word, blatant that's why he was punished.

And stop spewing your propaganda you have Alonso blinders ... like your previous statement about "the spaniard not crossing any white line" in China 2010 ... ... those big fat lines he put his 4 wheels over aren't really lines, they are figments of my imagination.

Why do I bother arguing with fanbois ...


On the Autosport newsitem:

The Renault driver darted from the racing line for the final corner right across the solid white line that marks the entry to the pits early in the second free practice session, something that is not allowed.

He was called to see the race stewards immediately after the session and, after admitting he made a mistake, he was issued with the fine and reprimand.

Speaking about the incident, Alonso said: "You have to say on the right side of the white line, and today I was not one time. It was my mistake."


But then I remember it was a common thing to do at Nurburgring, so who KERS, don't ask for consistency, it's unrealistic :lol:

Edited by prty, 02 August 2010 - 11:26.


#49 JackTorrance

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 11:27

We talking about Vettel holding up the pack? if so...

The difference between the two is that Vettel's actions benefitted Webber considerably, effectively giving him and extra second or two when Webbers next stint was about pulling a gap which a second or two could have been the difference between first and second/third. In hindsight we know it wouldn't have made a difference and that Vettel wasn't told to hold up the cars, simply a mistake, but thats with hindsight. After all the criticism the stewards have received recently for delaying, they couldn't wait to see it all pan out before giving the penalty. The big difference between this and Vettel entering the pits over the white line was because there was no benefit to Vettel, his team, or any other car, for taking this course of action.



Ive taken the liberty to see how long it would take for the stewards to come into action.

1. It took more than 5 minutes to give the 'incident under investigation' message.

2. It took 13 minutes to give the 'drive through' message.

I sometimes wonder..is the FIA using the teletubbies as race stewards? My 3 year old nephew could do that faster.





#50 prty

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Posted 02 August 2010 - 11:29

A week after criticism by Lobato and the like for the British press supposedly campaigning against Alonso, I found this snippet amusing from the post race conference:


I see different levels of education and respect towards the interviewed person. That said, Carlos Miquel is hardly an example to follow.