113 replies to this topic

[Megatron]

I was too young to watch when he was racing F1, he was medicore in CART, does anyone know/think he was any good?

[Ray Bell]

I think I recall a couple of flashes of brilliance, but never anything sustained. Best years were with Renault, about 80, 81.

[Rob Ryder]

In my opinion the best desciption of Cheever would be 'A Journeyman Driver'. Considering he was in F1 from 1980 until 1989 he did not get the results that were expected. I think only some of this should be attributed to the cars he had.

His best season (1983) when he had the Renault RE-40 he qualified consitantly in the top 10, but only gained 4 podium finishes.

In CART agree that he was again mediocre, only shining when moved to IRL, with the lesser competition.

Rob

[Maldwyn]

I remember seeing Cheever in F2 at a damp Silversone in 1979(?) driving a Beta sponsored Maurer(?) with which he dominated the race - I have a great memory for detail . At the time he looked to be heading for great things but then he made his F1 debut in a seriously fat looking Osella...He did manage some reasonable results when teamed with Derek Warwick at Arrows.

[deangelis86]

I can recall one of James Hunts comments in the 1988 BBC Grand Prix Book regards Cheever:

"He's been around an awfully long time to have done nothing in F1"

- James always did take the hard line, but in some ways that was partially true. I think that Cheever was a competant number 2 for any team and a hard racer on occasion, but seemed to be pretty inconsistent.

Just for your info - Eddie is married to Elio de Angelis's sister.

[TonyKaye]

I also remember that race at Silverstone, probably one of the first International Trophy races for Formula 2 cars after non-championship F1 races sadly went out of fashion. I'm pretty sure it was an orange colored Osella that he was driving. Anyway it was a typical Silverstone day with the rain coming down in buckets. Cheever absolutely outdrove everyone in the field; he was magnificent. At the time I thought we were watching a potential champion in the making. But it never happened. However if there was a wet track he always seemed to excel. It's ironic that he has ended up driving in a series where they stop the race if it starts to rain.

[jmcgavin]

I don't think it helped him at all that he drove for a different team every year until 84, then he had that appalling 2 years with the Euroracing Alfas. Once the 87 Arrows failed to deliver what it promised i think that was it
I don't think he was top rank talent wise but he could have notched up a few wins in a decent car

[Don Capps]

Personally, I like Cheever. He is quite articulate and says what he says. Plus, I think that he was & still is a very talented Racer.

Cheever falls into the group of Racers and Drivers that never seem to get that opportunity or that break or are in the right car at the wrong time or just have a lousy hand dealt to them: the right guy at the wrong time. While successful, often their success is the sorts of success that folks appreciate. Chris Amon is one of better known members of this group, but he has plenty of company, Cheever among them.

In racing, the cult of the Super Hero has gotten worse rather than better over the years. And it was bad enough decades ago. The idea of "Hero or Zero" is nothing new. It is just more prevalent as the opportunities for media exposure increase and the opportunities for success on the fringes, if you will, decrease.

We are all guilty of judging drivers without much basis to make the judgement upon except that he didn't win a lot or have any of the other indicators of what we term "Success." Such is the human condition. Life isn't fair, but sometimes that isn't the way things should be. Remember that we have more mysteries than certainties in our lives. Why Cheever never made it into the ranks of the Exalted is just another one of those mysteries.

[Richard Jenkins]

Well, Eddie didn't have the nickname "Undera" for nothing...

[Keir]

I will always be a Cheever fan, apart from his obvious talent, he always gave a great interview. And look at some of the nags that he drove. And being in the #2 seat with Renault, with Prost as the team leader. Talk about the kiss of death!!! And Arrows with Warwick, Eddie spent part of the season in a car that he truly didn't fit into, but Derek had no problem. Case closed on that subject!!

GO EDDIE, GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!

[Ross Stonefeld]

Wasnt he Ferrari test driver at age 19 or something? That's no mean feat, especially back then

[Henry C]

Wasn't Eddie in line for a seat at Ferrari until Enzo got a view of Gilles? I don't mind him at all, seems to speak his mind without whinning. Hasn't he had a modicum of success at Lemans over the years?

[Barry Boor]

Damn! I thought I was the only person who knew him as the Underacheever.

Eddie was/is a good driver. But then there have been zillions of good drivers.

He was only moderately successful in CART, back in the days when I used to say it was populated by has-beens, never wases and never will-be's.

Much like the IRL nowadays.

[William Dale Jr]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned, late in his F1 career, he began to get too big for the cars. In 1989 he had trouble getting out of the car in 5 seconds for the safety test, and in the first GP of the year, he spun off, got out of the car and his legs fell out from under him from exhaustion. I don't think he ever managed to get comfortable in that car.

[Psychoman]

My major respect for Eddie Cheever is that he was the last American to really dedicate himself to trying out F1 (naturally Michael Andretti doesn't count ;))--and in a way he was successful, seeing as he was able to stay in it for a whole decade, but he was unsuccessful considering what he did in that decade, but still successful considering the equipment he had in his time.

[fines]

Originally posted by deangelis86
Just for your info - Eddie is married to Elio de Angelis's sister.

I always thought he was married to the sister of Riccardo Patrese's wife!? Rita and Suzie are both blondes, surely no sisters of Elio, are they?

Regarding the Silverstone win in the Osella, I seem to recall he was the only one using superior Pirelli wets in that race, as opposed to the Good Years everyone else ran on (the same with his Pau win that year).

[deangelis86]

Arrrgh!! - Well spotted, you are of course quite right.....

Just to clarify then:

Eddie Cheever is NOT married to Elio de Angelis's sister.

- It is in fact his brother, ROSS CHEEVER

I'll get my coat now.......

[Jonas A]

Back in 1975 when he was driving f3 in GB he was regarded as a wonderkid, but then he spent too many years in f2 without taking the title. He drove a march 762 with an abarth engine for Ron Dennis in the highly competive 1976 f2 season, but the engine was not up to the job. In 77 he drove a Ralt in f2 with good results. 1978 should have been his year in f2 driving a March (the car to have that year) but he was totaly blown away by Bruno Giacomelli in the works March who won 8 out of 12 races. In 79 he drove an Osella in f2. The car was only really competive in the rain. Eddie won three races in the rain that year. He made a good impression in his first three years in f1 beting his teammates at Tyrell and Ligier. It was when he came to Renault in 83 that his f1 career began to fade, but as mentioned above, beeing teammate to Prost in a French team can´t be easy. Not a title-contender, but he was far better than his reputation.

[Junior]

Well, if an aspiring young American wants to break into F1, they'd probably be better off following Cheever's committed approach. (As opposed to Mi Andretti's)


So, why did Cheever leave F1? Did he just run out of opportunities? Maybe he saw it as kind of a deadend?

[MrAerodynamicist]

Originally posted by deangelis86
Arrrgh!! - Well spotted, you are of course quite right.....

Just to clarify then:

Eddie Cheever is NOT married to Elio de Angelis's sister.

- It is in fact his brother, ROSS CHEEVER

I'll get my coat now.......

Married to his brother, is that legal?

On a more serious note, I have very little knowledge about Cheever but I do recall an article once [N Roebuck, Racing line, CAR Magazine, early 90's] about how brave he apprently was. It commented once how he was once several seconds faster in some wet session.

[Joe Fan]

On various bulletin boards, I frequently see people criticize Eddie Cheever, calling him a bum or F1/CART reject. And most have probably heard the expression, Eddie UnderaCheever. And I wonder why. Consider the following:

1) In 1977, he finished second in the F2 championship behind Rene Arnoux. The following year, at age 18 he was highly considered by Ferrari for a Formula One seat. However, this seat ended up going to Gilles Villeneuve instead.

2) In 1981, as a second-year driver he outscored his rookie teammate Michele Alboreto 10-0 at Tyrrell.

3) In 1983, he outqualified Alain Prost twice, at Detroit and Brands Hatch. He finished sixth in the F1 standings, being outscored 57-22 by Prost.

Here is his F1 career in summary (team/points scored v teammate)
1980 Oscella 0-0 Gabbiani
1981 Tyrrell 10-0 Alboreto
1982 Ligier 15-5 Lafitte
1983 Renault 22-57 Prost
1984 Alfa Romeo 3-8 Patrese
1985 Alfa Romeo 0-0 Patrese
1986 ----
1987 Arrows 8-3 Warwick
1988 Arrows 6-17 Warwick
1989 Arrows 6-7 Warwick

In CART, he finished 9th in points standings in 1990, 1991 and 1992 driving for Ganassi's new team. In 1993, Arie Luyendyk didn't fare much better for Ganassi, finishing 8th in the point standings. From 1993-1995, he suffered from poor rides and opted for the IRL as an owner/driver when it was formed in 1996.

So, when did Eddie really have top flight equipment during his non-IRL racing career? 1983 seems to be the only year and he finished 6th in the F1 point standings as a second driver to Prost.

People bash him for his move to the IRL as if it were an open wheel wasteland. However, as a driver/owner, he won $880,700 running in the IRL last season. Only four drivers won this much running in the CART series last year and he accomplished this competing in 10 fewer races than the CART drivers. Side note, IRL Champ Buddy Lazier won $2,176,200 last year competing in the IRL compared to CART Champion Gil de Ferran's $1,677,000. So, Eddie's move to the IRL seems to have been a smart move financially.

One thing I like about Eddie is that he is not afraid to compete in the IROC series like some CART champions and drivers I know. He has been the only driver to bring some respectability to the open wheel contingent in the series, winning the Michigan race last year. In addition to his IROC win, he has nine World Sports Car wins, most notably his 1987 Nurburgring 1000Km win shared with Raul Boesel. Overall, Eddie has been a solid driver over his career considering the equipment he has had to work with. In 1973, he finished second in the World Karing Championship and was sort of a prodigal child in the motorsports world. It would have been interesting to see how his career would have turned out if he was selected over Gilles for the Ferrari seat in 1978

[vettefan]

With the present bias among self-appointed racing "experts"* of the world who automatically place all phases of F1 above any other racing series of the world, is it any wonder that they automatically stamp as a "loser" any driver who quits F1 for any other form of racing?

*Among these "experts" are counted those who will confidently and vehemently rank their favorite legends of the past against drivers of different eras generations past, regardless of all the other myriad differences in equipment, tracks, and all the other criteria which would defy logical comparison.

Personally, I hold in awe ANY driver who has or has had the skill and cajones to drive ANY F1 car of ANY era: my hat is off to them all!

And I like Eddie!

[Yelnats]

I think the clue may lie in the great expectations raised by Eddie's early carreer. But he just didn't catch on with a good team in F1 though his longevity there attests to his talent. I suppose many F1 fans expected him to triumph when he entered CART but again team weaknesses limited his success. Now that he's moved to IRL and again is not dominant there more fans will jump on the "Eddie Underacheiver" bandwagon.

But not me!

I still look forward to watching Eddie race and wish him every success and hope he survives to a well deserved retirement.

[Pirelli]

I like Eddie as well. He is one of the few American Drivers in the modern era that managed to stay in F1 for any kind of a substantial period. People think Michael Andretti as all that and a bucket, but he lasted what? a season in F1? I think Eddie, held Eddie back. He has this fiery personality that car owners don't want to contend with. He has this attitude on and off the track. He and Scott Goodyear used to run each other all over the track, Eddie even had the stones to put Earnhardt in the grass at the IROC at Daytona this year. (The fans almost killed him for that and they would have if Earnhardt had not come over to talk to him after that).

[Keir]

Eddie gives the best interviews of any driver in any racing category.
I always liked Eddie and one thing is for sure, he got the short end of the stick during his time in F1.

[Joe Fan]

One thing that baffles me, if Ferrari were that interested him at a young age but did not sign him, why didn't another top team scoop him up? Ferrari was the top time in F1 at that time so certainly there should have been interest by other top teams.

It seems to me that Eddie did almost everything he had to do to get a top ride in F1. In four years of F2, KeKe Rosberg never finished above Eddie in the point standings. In 1981, Eddie outscored KeKe in F1 WDC point standings but the following year, KeKe gets the prime Williams seat.

Whenever people get on the high-horse that Americans should embrace the rest of the world and compete at the highest level of motorsport, F1, I have to cringe. It seems to me that Americans are just wasting their time trying to make a successful career in F1 and would be better served staying back home where the opportunities are more plentiful. Oh, and besides, you can get a Big Mac more readily in the U.S. anyway.;)

[mhferrari]

He is really the only IRL driver who could make it in any other open-wheeled series, except maybe a few drivers. With IRL probably instituting road courses, he may shine yet again.

[Joe Fan]

Originally posted by mhferrari
He is really the only IRL driver who could make it in any other open-wheeled series, except maybe a few drivers. With IRL probably instituting road courses, he may shine yet again.

Besides Cheever, I think Bubby Lazier, Sam Hornish, Airton Dare, Scott Sharp and Greg Ray could do reasonably well in CART. Roger Penske thinks enough of Casey Mears that it is rumored that he will form an IRL for him next year. Felipe Giaffone is another driver who has impressed this year in the IRL. lt might take Lazier, Hornish and Ray some time to get adjusted to road racing but I think they would do alright. Sharp is a former Trans-Am champion so he really has more of a road racing background. Hornish is probably the best young American open wheel racing talent today. He is currently leading the point standings and is just 21 years old. Despite his spin at Indy, he set the fastest lap during the race. Had he not spun and gotten a lap down, it would have been interesting to see how he would have done against the Penske duo.

But as far as the other drivers, they are either too old, too much of an ovals-type driver or off the mark talent-wise. But then again, CART has had drivers like Dennis Vittolo. Really, it all boils down to the quality of the ride. Maz Papis didn't do anything until he went to Team Rahal. Then Kenny Brack came over from the IRL and outperformed him.

[Frank de Jong]

Originally posted by Yelnats
I think the clue may lie in the great expectations raised by Eddie's early carreer.

Well, Eddie sure has had his chances. A good F2 seat in 1977 and 1978 (Project 4 IIRC), then Osella with the benefit of the Pirelli tyres, which were dominant one year later. Besides, he had a seat in the famous BMW Junior team.
But: he didn't shine on the right moment. Teammates Winkelhock (who had to build his car himself, and look for sponsorship as well) and Surer got far more attention, however Eddie was the pre-season favourite, having far more experience than the other two.
I don't think Eddie ever made it in F1. Perhaps he choose the wrong cars, but that's apart from the driving itself probably the most important aspect of being a top-driver.
However, that's nothing to be ashamed of; a lot of drivers of that same period had the same experience. Look at Daly, Warwick, Surer, Winkelhock etc.

[Pikachu Racing]

it's just like any other drivers who drove in CART that decide to jump to the IRL: being unfairly labeled "reject" or "loser."

That's pretty pathetic. Guys like Lil' Al, late Scott Brayton, Scott Goodyear to name a few busted their asses in CART only to jump to the IRL. Once someone from CART jumped to the IRL the fans rather forget all their accomplishments and just label them a "reject." Goodyear won two Michigan 500's but he and along with Paul Tracy help brought in the Canadian invasion to CART.

Eddie is like Alesi. At the wrong place at the wrong time. I'm glad he won Indy 98 because he really deserved it. He took so many risks throughout his career. Right now, he even took the Infinity engine hoping to make it a regular winner.

[Buford]

Nobody decides to jump to the IRL, the running sick joke of the racing world. They go to the IRL because they cannot get a paid ride in a serious professional racing series anymore.

[Joe Fan]

Buford, I heard that Juan Montoya was only getting around $300,000 a year as a base salary for Chip Ganassi. Factor in 40-50% of his winnings and he was making less than a million a year in CART. I don't think the salaries are that great in CART except for a few teams, and those gigs were already locked in. So, his move to driver/owner in the IRL was more than likely a big salary increase for whatever he or others could have received at that time.

[Buford]

I don't know what Montoya got but he was under contract to Williams and was on "loan" to Ganassi so whatever money changed hands was backroon dealing to get him seat time until Williams had a place for him. At least 15 CART drivers have retainers of a half million a year or more. Several at over a million. Five more have retainers of some kind. Nobody in the IRL of the 5 or 6 paid drivers who are not buying rides has a retainer of even close to the lowest CART retainer.

Of course this is peanuts in both divisions compared with F1 and the top 15 in Nascar, but Cheever has been living hand to mouth since he was booted from CART and was on the low end of the paid drivers at the time he was running there. Had he not taken the Nissan engine program and thus some funding (when no other team wanted it) he would have been shining shoes by now.

[Psychoman]

Of all the drivers in American racing today, I have more respect for Eddie Cheever than any other. Like Pirelli pointed out, he's the only American in the last 20 years to really persevere in F1--enough that he spent an entire decade in F1 in mostly middle-rear grid cars. I don't know of anyone in this decade who kept going with mid-grid teams their entire careers without bringing money, save maybe Verstappen. He is also one of the few drivers that I know of on either side of the pond that says the things he says, without apology, my favorite aspect of his...

on a report that PETA was pushing to replace Indy's famed bottle of milk with soy milk: "If I win a race and someone hands me a bottle of soy milk I'm gonna throw it at them"



As for Casey Mears, I know he's good enough--he finished 3rd his only CART start at Fontana last year. Also, where did you hear that the IRL would add road courses?

[Keir]

On the subject of the IRL, I can only say this, I wish the series was around when I started racing. It truly caters to the racer/owner types (of which I once was). Given the opportunity, I would jump at the chance to do the races. As would any driver, who wanted to compete at the highest level without going broke in the bargain.

[mhferrari]

I really think only Cheever and a select few others could actually do good results in CART, on occassion, on road courses.

[Buford]

It truly caters to the racer/owner types (of which I once was
---------------------------------
As was I. But I never wanted the top teams and drivers and their equipment thrown out so I could get my chance to pretend I was the real thing too. I wanted to compete at the highest level when it really was the highest level, not a smoke and mirror show born of a political power grab. I wanted to compete with the best, I wanted to beat the best. I did not want them banned so I could posture I was the best.

So I never quite made it. I was never better than second rate in the racing scheme of things. So be it. To have an IRL like fraud available to allow me to pretend I was now the best because one man who inherited the best track said I was, would have been as big a farce as it is now.

[BRG]

Originally posted by Yelnats
I think the clue may lie in the great expectations raised by Eddie's early carreer. But he just didn't catch on with a good team in F1 though his longevity there attests to his talent. I suppose many F1 fans expected him to triumph when he entered CART but again team weaknesses limited his success. Now that he's moved to IRL and again is not dominant there more fans will jump on the "Eddie Underacheiver" bandwagon.

If it looks like a duck, quacks like aduck and swims like a duck, it is a duck.

Cheever has underachieved in F1 then CART then IRL. He seems to have been declining since his first season in F1. By the time he got to CART, he wasn't good eneough to do well there and then the same in IRL. He seemed to peak too early - he was impressive in F2 and certainly seemed to have golden F1 career ahead of him. But it never seemed to happen. He got lots of good chances in F1 because people continued to believe that the big success was just around the corner. Drives with Tyrell, Renault and Arrows were not to be sniffed at at that time - these were good seats, but Cheever was outrun by drivers who no-one would class as top-notch such as Warwick and throughly outclassed by Prost and Patrese.

It is sad, but Cheever got a very fair bite of the F1 apple and should have no complaints.

On the bright side, I was always remember him for sliding off at Brands Hatch and almost hitting a parked Harrier jump-jet. That made the FIA really panic when they thought of the bill that the RAF would have presented them with - shortly after a regulation about minimum distances from the track for parking aircraft were introduced....

[Yelnats]

I still am astonished at what the inheritors have done to that wonderful Indy tradition by reducing the 500 to a second rate competition. Today it's a retirment home for twice retired F1 drivers (F1>CART and CART>IRL). Still, if it gives a place for the always entertainig Eddie Cheevers and tragic/comic Scott Goodyear to race agains't their lessers, I'll continue to watch it.

[Joe Fan]

Originally posted by BRG
..but Cheever was outrun by drivers who no-one would class as top-notch such as Warwick and throughly outclassed by Prost and Patrese.

Non sense, if you read one of my posts above I had broke down the scoring and Cheever was very close to Warwick and Patrese. Patrese outscored him 8-3 in the two years they were at Alfa Romeo together. If you look at qualifying, they took turns outqualifying eachother until the midway into 1985.

As far as Prost, well there have been quite a few drivers who were outclassed by him. Prost is French and Renault was a French team. Cheever was a number two driver there so who was going to get the best equipment and most attention from the team? Besides Eddie has recently talked his teammate days with Prost and he said that Prost was very quiet, wouldn't engage in much conversation with him and basically treated him as just another competitor.

[Zawed]

Originally posted by Joe Fan

Here is his F1 career in summary (team/points scored v teammate)
1980 Oscella 0-0 Gabbiani
1981 Tyrrell 10-0 Alboreto
1982 Tyrrell 15-5 Lafitte
1983 Renault 22-57 Prost
1984 Alfa Romeo 3-8 Patrese
1985 Alfa Romeo 0-0 Patrese
1986 ----
1987 Arrows 8-3 Warwick
1988 Arrows 6-17 Warwick
1989 Arrows 6-7 Warwick

I hate to be picky but in 1982 Eddie was at Talbot Ligier...so shoot me;)

[Joe Fan]

Zawed, you are correct and I have since corrected it in my original post. I am surprised that I didn't catch this when I was typing it.

[Gary C]

whenever I've seen Eddie as an interviewee on the TV he's come across as very intelligent & very interesting. Perhaps he might be better at that these days than actually driving??

[Jonathan]

In addition to being a sponsors dream (an excelent public speaker), Eddie is a very smart tactical driver. When he isn't in contention to win, he focuses on giving steady & reliable finishes. He rarely shows his true potential.

I thought for sure he was going to win the 1992 Indy 500. Unfortunately after being unfairly penalized one lap for passing Raul Bossel (who voluntarily waived him past), he decided to play it cool, tone it down somewhat and bring the car home safely...
In retrospect (teammate Arye Lyndyke, Mario and Jeff Andrietti and a few others all crashed rather hard in that race) this was a very wise desision.

[AyePirate]

Guys like Cheever make me wish there was some sort of open wheel
"Masters Tour". Wasn't something like this proposed before?
It seems like guys like Mansell, Prost, Mario etc. would be a
good draw and fun to watch.Eddie may not be at the top of his
game anymore, but I 'd put money on him against any other 43 year
old driver.

I think it would also be great to see IROC use
identically prepared open wheel cars every odd year and "stock cars"
on even years. It would be fun to see the tin top guys out of their bump n'
draft element for a change!

[Megatron]

I actually think that in his day, Cheever was EXTREMELY talented.

Remember that in 1983, Eddie had what amounted to a customer spec Renault turbo while all the developments went Prost's way. To be that close to Prost under the conditions I think was something good.

At least the customer spec engines is what Eddie told me!

He then faired very well against Patrese and Warwick.

Why does he get bashed now? Because of horrible comments like "Fidel Castroneves".

[Psychoman]

I thought that was funny... sorry, I can't help it, I'm a barbaric American twit who deserves the chair ;)

[luisfelipetrigo]

Originally posted by vettefan
... ANY driver who has or has had the skill and cajones to drive ANY F1 car of ANY era: my hat is off to them all!...

Cajones = drawers
Cojones = balls ( )

I agree with vettefan comment ... but being a native Spanish speaking ... now you all know how to spell it in case you have to use it.

I liked Cheever since his days at Tyrrell and always felt he deserved more. I never met him but I have always had the impression that as a person he is 'tops'.

[BRG]

Originally posted by luisfelipetrigo
Cajones = drawers
Cojones = balls ( )

But surely the Spanish for balls is bola or globo or balon? Whereas cojones means testicles...
And in Chile or Peru, cajones would mean coffins, which may be what vettefan meant in the first place...

All credit to Eddie Cheever for getting as far as he has in racing, but I can't help feeling that he never delivered the results that he seemed to promise - it all just seemed to fade away.

[vettefan]

Luis Felipe: thanks for your correction to my Spanish, quote:

"Cajones = drawers"
"Cojones = balls"


I'm obviously not a native speaker of your beautiful language. But at least I think everyone gained the right understanding from what I MEANT.

But it is a common spelling mistake that we Norteamericanos make!

And I'll have to agree with the general thread of comment is that Eddie just never quite had "it" for the F-1 big time. But then, many of those PRESENTLY in the F-1 big time don't have it either!