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Boa Vista 1950


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#1 Michael Müller

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 12:10

Who knows the date? I have 2 - 17th and 24th September 1950.
Any results and/or entries known?
I'm especially interested in a potential 2nd Ferrari (besides that of Landi) driven by Pinheiro Pires.


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#2 Bino Mk II

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 09:38


Michael:

I have the date and results of the race:

Sep 17 1950 - GP Quinta da Boa Vista - Rio de Janeiro -

1 - Francisco Landi - Ferrari 125 C
2 - Gino Bianco - Maserati 8 CM
3 - Francisco Marques - Maserati 4 CL
4 - Rubem Abrunhosa - Maserati 4 CL
5 - Rodrigo de Miranda - Maserati 4 CL
6 - Manuel de Teffé - Maserati 4 CL
7 - Aurelio Ferreira - Maserati 4 CL

DNF:

Georges Raph - Talbot T-26 C

Source: Jornal do Brasil - Sep 20 1950.

Obs:

1 - Quinta da Boa Vista is a great park near the center of Rio de Janeiro.
2 - I don't know if Antonio Pinheiro Pires raced in this GP.

Bino Mk II

#3 Michael Müller

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 10:36

Thanks Bino.
I have no races for Antonio Pinheiro Pires before 1952, has anybody a race log - or at least some entries - before that?


#4 David McKinney

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 10:59

In Ferrari:
Quinta da Boa Vista 22/4/51 - 4th (lapped by Landi)
Boa Vista June 1951 - 4th

The car was then driven by Jean Achard in the 14/7/51 Gavea hillclimb, crashing with fatal results

I then have no further reference to Pires in a/the Ferrari until 16/12/52 when he shared the wheel with Viani in the Gavea race, but retired; Pires had raced the ex-Achard Talbot Lago in earlier 1952 events

Edited by David McKinney, 07 August 2010 - 11:00.


#5 Bino Mk II

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 12:37

Michael / David :

I have this results of Antonio Pinheiro Pires:


1951 -

Jan/25 - Premio Fundação da Cidade de São Paulo - Interlagos - 7th - Ferrari 125 C
Apr/21 - GP Quinta da Boa Vista - Rio de Janeiro - 4th - Ferrari 125 C
Jun/24 - Troféu D. Darcy Vargas - Quinta da Boa Vista - Rio de Janeiro - 4th - Ferrari 125 C

1952 -

Jan/20 - XI GP Cidade do Rio de Janeiro - Circuito da Gávea - 6th - Talbot T-26 C
Feb/03 - GP Quinta da Boa Vista - Rio de Janeiro - DNF - Talbot T-26 C
Mar/03 - GP Juan Domingo Perón - Buenos Aires - Argentina - DNF - Talbot T-26 C
Nov/30 - Circuito de Petrópolis - 4th - Talbot T-26 C
Dec/14 - XII GP Cidade do Rio de Janeiro - Circuito da Gávea - DNF - Ferrari 125 C - with Jair Mello Vianna

1954 -

Jan/03 - XIII GP Cidade do Rio de Janeiro - Circuito da Gávea - DNF - Maserati A6-GCS
Jan/10 - GP de São Paulo - Interlagos - DNF - Talbot T-26 C
Apr/03 - Circuito do Maracanã - Rio de Janeiro - 5th - Talbot T-26 C
May/09 - Circuito do Castelo - Rio de Janeiro - 2nd - Talbot T-26 C

1956 -

Nov/11 - Circuito de Volta Redonda - 5th - Maserati A6-GCS

1957 -

Jan/20 - 1000 Km Buenos Aires - DNF - Maserati A6-GCS - with Severino Gomes Silva
Feb/24 - GP de Cuba - DNF - Maserati 150 S - with Alessandro De Tomaso
Dec/08 - Prova Embaixador Francisco Negrão de Lima - Quinta da Boa Vista - Rio de Janeiro - 3th - Maserati 300 S

1958 -

Apr/13 - Prova Prefeitura do Distrito Federal - Quinta da Boa Vista - Rio de Janeiro - 4th - Maserati 300 S
Sep/28 - I Circuito da Barra da Tijuca - Rio de Janeiro - DNF - Maserati 300 S
Dec/10 - II Circuito da Barra da Tijuca - Rio de Janeiro - DNF - Maserati 300 S


Sources :

Jornal do Brasil
O Estado de São Paulo
"Circuito da Gávea" - Paulo Scali
"Circuitos de Rua - 1908/1958" - Paulo Scali
www.wsrp.ic.cz/
Antonio Carlos Buarque de Lima (searcher)
Francisco Muniz (searcher)
Wolfgang Krause (searcher)


Bino Mk II

Edited by Bino Mk II, 07 August 2010 - 12:43.


#6 Michael Müller

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 13:58

Thanks guys!
Interesting that indeed as early as January 1951 Pires was owner of the Ferrari. The car is an ex-works car from 1949 which has been on loan to Raymond Sommer for 1950. It was then painted light blue, and was entered - possibly as part of the agreement - only for French races including Monaco. It had 2 engines, besides the 125 s/c F1 unit also a 166 F2 one, thus the car could be entered for both categories. It disappeared somewhere in June 1950. Last race was at Angouleme on 11 June, for Reims on 2 July Sommer is on the entrance list, but was DNA (in the main F1 event he drove his Talbot). It is reported that Sommer in that time got quarrel with Enzo, reasons are unknown to me.

The car - I believe it was either 08C or 12C - in my files first appeared in South America with Jean Achard at the Gavea hillclimb in July 1951, where Achard had his fatal practice accident. Then with Ruben Abrunhosa at Gavea (20 Jan 1952), Boa Vista (3 Feb 1952), and Buenos Aires (9 Mar 1952). One week later at the 2nd Buenos Aires race (16 Mar 1952) it was then driven by Carlos Menditeguy and at Montevideo (30 Mar 1952) by Onofre Marimon. After that is disappeared. David's info about Jair Viana at Gavea on 14 Dec 1952 is new to me, but it confirms that the car was still in Brazilian ownership, and not sold to Argentina as the entries of Menditeguy and Marimon would suggest.

My theory up to now was that - due to potential connections to Sommer - the Ferrari had been brought to Brazil by Achard together with his Talbot. But that theory can be dropped now as Pires owned it as early as Jan 1951, meaning it was in South Amercia earlier than believed. The Gavea 1950 entry - if confirmed - would mean that the car was shipped even earlier, possibly with the Landi car in August 1950. With the effect that I have to rewrite my 1950/51 car logs....

Edited by Michael Müller, 07 August 2010 - 14:02.


#7 ERault

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 15:03

Fascinating !

It is reported that Sommer in that time got quarrel with Enzo, reasons are unknown to me.


For what it worth, according to Maurice Louche, the old man did not find amusing being called "Al Capone" by Sommer in a press interview.

#8 Michael Müller

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 15:32

Either that was meant funny, or Sommer had a real reason to call Enzo like that. I expect the second, thus there must be some earlier chapters of the story. Contrary to other drivers Sommer had always a very good relation with Enzo, although he received various times an offer as works driver he always refused. He wanted to keep his freedom, and therefore he accepted being "used" by Ferrari. The Pires car may be the reason. If Enzo promised Sommer the car for the whole season, but took it away when he saw a chance to sell it, Sommer indeed would have been not amused.


#9 Paul Medici

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 16:47

Michael - Nothing to add to the Boa Vista race I'm afraid but very very nice to see you on TNF again.
Brightened my day to see another discussion about old racing Ferraris.
Please e-mail me when time permits.


#10 Michael Müller

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Posted 07 August 2010 - 20:21

:wave:
Hi Paul, mail address unchanged?


#11 O Volante

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Posted 08 August 2010 - 16:18

What a nice surprise this thread is! I'm another who appreciates the return of an old favorite theme, together with an input of new information on the matter from serious researchers!

For Pires' first appearance in racing, I can only confirm Bino's (hello Ricardo, good to hear from you again :wave: ) info. I have him too mentioned for the first time in the entry for the Premio Fundacao Cidade de Sao Paulo in January 1951.

Not important, but a DNA, probably with the Ferrari in question, can be added to Pires' race record. In a report I have him as an entry for the Premio Governador Lucas Nogueira Garcez at Interlagos on 13 May 1951, but unfortunately no details on his car are given. In any case, Pires did not appear due to business commitments.

Surely more relevant for the Ferrari's latter career is the fact that it was raced by Jair de Melo Viana at least once after 1952: He finished second to Henrique Casini in the ex-Landi 125/166 in the Premio Cinquentenario do Gremio Portoalegrense, held at the Parque da Redencao at Porto Alegre on October 25, 1953. For other 1953/1954 races, my records are unfortunately not good enough to be sure ...

Given the involvement of Viana with the Tubularte team before his death untimely death in 1958, I always wondered if the Pires / Achard Ferrari was not the basis of the first "Tubularte-Ferrari" for Brazilian Mecanica Nacional / Continental racing. Is this in line with your information, Michael :wave: ?


#12 Michael Müller

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Posted 08 August 2010 - 19:34

Hello Wolfgang, I hoped that you pop up here!
Most of the European race cars had been converted after some years to specials for the local Brazilian and Argentinian national race series, so for sure also the Pires Ferrari. I understand Colin Crabbe digged it out in Uruguay in the 70's, together with some other cars, but lacking details.

Concerning the serial acc. to my research it could have been only 08C or 12C. The Staechelin car had 2 engines, #1F for F2 and #12C for F1, so the car as such most probably was 01F or 12C. On the other side, the ACA car 013F, which actually is on show at the Balcarce Fangio museum, has gear box #12C, and engine #0014M (in s/c version). Both for sure never came with the car when new, and most probably also had not been installed during 013F's actual career. As far I remember the 0014M engine also was digged out in Uruguay some time ago, and obviously found its way to 013F. So possibly also the gear box originates from the same find (Crabbe?).

There are some documentary statements showing presence of Pires with a Ferrari as early as Boa Vista in September 1950. For me it is indeed important WHEN the car left Italy / arrived in Brazil, because this has direct influence on the potential availability for European races. The photos I have of the car in South America show some bright color which for sure is no rosso corsa. This would be an argument for a sale directly after the Sommer period in summer 1950. Another argument is the original bodywork of the car, all ex-SF monoposti sold in early 1951 (Whitehead, Fischer, Staechelin) had modernized bodywork. On the other side I have some race entries in the 2nd half of 1950 and possibly also in early 1951 where I would NEED this car in Europe....

Interesting also that during 10 years of Ferrari research I never came across a single word about the background of this deal. And also Pires seems to be a complete greenhorn in racing when accquiring the Ferrari.

Edited by Michael Müller, 08 August 2010 - 19:36.


#13 mcwidow70

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 12:40

What a nice surprise this thread is! I'm another who appreciates the return of an old favorite theme, together with an input of new information on the matter from serious researchers!

For Pires' first appearance in racing, I can only confirm Bino's (hello Ricardo, good to hear from you again :wave: ) info. I have him too mentioned for the first time in the entry for the Premio Fundacao Cidade de Sao Paulo in January 1951.

Not important, but a DNA, probably with the Ferrari in question, can be added to Pires' race record. In a report I have him as an entry for the Premio Governador Lucas Nogueira Garcez at Interlagos on 13 May 1951, but unfortunately no details on his car are given. In any case, Pires did not appear due to business commitments.

Surely more relevant for the Ferrari's latter career is the fact that it was raced by Jair de Melo Viana at least once after 1952: He finished second to Henrique Casini in the ex-Landi 125/166 in the Premio Cinquentenario do Gremio Portoalegrense, held at the Parque da Redencao at Porto Alegre on October 25, 1953. For other 1953/1954 races, my records are unfortunately not good enough to be sure ...

Given the involvement of Viana with the Tubularte team before his death untimely death in 1958, I always wondered if the Pires / Achard Ferrari was not the basis of the first "Tubularte-Ferrari" for Brazilian Mecanica Nacional / Continental racing. Is this in line with your information, Michael :wave: ?


I have reviewed a copy of an original race report (Report no.59/1950) issued on Ferrari corporate paper mentioning the attendance of two Ferrari 1500cc (Landi and Pinheiro Pires) on Boa Vista (17/09/50).

Another interesting report (no.66/1950) refers the Interlagos GP 1950 (01/10/50); they reported as well two Ferrari registered (Landi's Ferrari 2000cc (166????) and Pihneiro (Ferrari 125 GPC)).





#14 O Volante

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 14:26

Very interesting! Can you please tell us more details about the entry for both?
By the way, was it really called "Interlagos GP"? Always thought the correct designation for the race at Interlagos on October 1, 1950 had been "Prova Silvio Padilha"?

#15 mcwidow70

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 17:24

Very interesting! Can you please tell us more details about the entry for both?
By the way, was it really called "Interlagos GP"? Always thought the correct designation for the race at Interlagos on October 1, 1950 had been "Prova Silvio Padilha"?

I could review of these internal race reports printed on Ferrari Corporate paper: some are reporting a lot of details, e.g. car malfunctions, tyres performance, pilot comments and so on.

Unfortunately the two I mentioned are very poor:

1) report race no.59/1950 "Circuito de Quinta da Boa Vista" 17/09/1950 - 30 laps

Car: two Ferari 1500cc for Landi and Pires
Main competitors: Marques-Maserati 1500, Bianco -Maserati 3000, Abrunhosa-Maserati-2500, Miranda-Maserati 2000

Result:
1st Landi 39'22''8
2nd Bianco 40'29''6
3rd Marques 1lap

2) report race Interlagos GP "fuerzola libera" - 1/10/1950 15 laps tot 120Km

Car: Landi on ferrari 2000 and Pires on 125GPC
Main Competitors: Marques on Maserati, Valle- Alfa Romeo

Result:
1st Landi 58'08''2
2nd Marques 1h00'57''
3rd Valle 1h02'08''

best lap Landi 3'50''

I couldn't honestly say that these informations are reliable, but I can say that they are part of one of the most important italian collection, concerninf 1940s-1950s single seater races and the form is similar to other ferrari document issued in those years that I saw in the past.

For example the cars reported for the Boa Vista race are different from the one reported for Interlagos (2000cc means a 166cc cylinder while the 1500cc have 125cc cilinder)




#16 O Volante

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Posted 09 August 2010 - 20:01

Many thanks!
Despite their obvious brief character, I find these reports extremely interesting: They give confirmation to what was stated by other contemporary and newer printed sources.
Take the Boa Vista data. We learn a little more about distance and time. The Maseratis are confirmed, but apparently not all were 4CL resp. 1500 cc cars. The 8CM for Bianco and the A6 for Miranda are no surprises; both are appearing with these cars elsewhere in Brazilian racing event during the time. The 2500 cc for Abrunhosa, on the other hand, makes me wonder ...
As far as I know, the same is valid for the information on the race at Interlagos, whatever the correct title was ;)!

#17 Michael Müller

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Posted 10 August 2010 - 06:06

I can confirm that these documents are some kind of internal Ferrari forms, issued with running numbers (Corsa No ....), and showing the available race information. However, what was the "available information"? In case of Brazil it was for sure no first hand report, as they had no representative at the track, so most likely it was an extract from newspaper or press agency. If so, such report could have been a pre-race article showing the entry list, with Pires then being a no-show. However, even if Pires was DNA only, it would confirm that at least he bought the car somewhere in summer 1950, with delivery then delayed.

Edited by Michael Müller, 10 August 2010 - 06:07.


#18 Franciscomuniz1

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 23:16

Who knows the date? I have 2 - 17th and 24th September 1950.
Any results and/or entries known?
I'm especially interested in a potential 2nd Ferrari (besides that of Landi) driven by Pinheiro Pires.

Dear Michel, look a report from the newspaper "Folha da Manhã", september 19,1950,page 9. The url is:http://acervo.folha.com.br/fdm/1950/9/19/167. Best Regards. Francisco Muniz - Rio de Janeiro