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Mark Webber (merged)


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#5701 Callahan

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:00

I think any doubt about the race pace of the RB8 can be dismissed. 2 aussies in the points also. I think Mark is in great shape compared to last year. He can win this, after today I believe it's possible.

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#5702 sanjiro

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:06

only if he can work out how to get of the line in an AN RB car
and only if RBR give him a working KERS


#5703 Meanbeakin

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:08

I'll take that, no problem. The pace car gave us a chance to see the top 4 slug it out and Mark had plenty of speed. Those starts though ???????? WTF are we going to do about them,


I do wonder how much of that was KERS.

#5704 race addicted

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:10

A weekend to be happy about for Webber-supporters - the pace he showed for parts of the race, under equal circumstances was really impressive. Hopefully this weekend is a pointer and he'll be all over Vettel this year, fighting for the title again.

#5705 Callahan

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:16

I do wonder how much of that was KERS.

He admitted he was boxed in by the late breakers screaming down the outside and didn't want to lose his front wing in the first corner but as for his KERS, hopeless.

McLaren and Ferrari KERS made by NASA

Red Bull KERS made by Fred Flintstone Performance

#5706 kosmos

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:19

Very good race by Mark, to finish only 2 seconds behind Vettel after all the "issues" he has in the race, stuck behind Rosberg and all, great drive. Shame that he couldn't pass Hamilton.

#5707 Sardukar

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 08:23

I didnt think webbers start was to bad. But holy crap the mercedes looked like they had launch control compared to everyone else!

#5708 Wheels23

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:02

It wasn't a bad start but it was a bad start in comparison to the Mercedes and Ferraris and Pastor.

Yeah great job by Mark. Really happy for him and he could be the dark horse in the championship.

#5709 FPV GTHO

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:10

He was still jumped by Vettel too, who was clearly ahead going into braking for T1.

#5710 H2H

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:11


A bad start with spinning wheels was of course a bad way to initiate the race, but he showed good pace. Sadly he could not overtake on the track but the RBR strategy was excellent and allowed him to leapfrog 2 drivers while 2 others ended in the gravel. It was a shame that he could not get on that podium and he looked not happy when he walked away from the interview area.

The good bit is that he and the car as a package seem to handle the tyres better then at the start of the 2011 season. Seb might have some troubles to bring heat into the tyres while Marks style is more abrasive on the track but puts more energy into them. This could be very important for Q3. All in all that much wanted result did not come but he is not nearly as much of the pace as in the early races of 2011.



#5711 Trust

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:11

The man is back and is HUNGRY!

#5712 LoudHoward

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:11

Marks start was terrible, he was getting hit by people 4-5 spots behind him on the grid after 300m!

Other than that, solid drive, needed to nail Rosberg earlier but the SC sort of canceled all that out.

Red Bull just don't have a car that'll be able to challenge for the title at the moment (I think we could really suck at Malaysia and China), but I hope Mark can keep hassling Seb.

#5713 slideways

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:12

I thought it was a poor effort. Yes, his comeback was good, like China or many other examples in the last two years, but it was another fluffed start and too many laps spent behind non-competing cars, leading to a podium or even victory lost.

#5714 slideways

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:15

I'm also a bit unsure as to whether Mark is doing better, or Seb is doing worse in terms of driving this year's package. Seb was really ass out all over the place and it looked to me like he was still driving it like he thought it still had an EBD sticky rear end, where Mark handled it a lot better. It could stay like that, or Seb could adjust who knows.

#5715 HoldenRT

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:34

Even though a 4th doesn't look good, Webber drove a great race IMO, and also a very solid qualifying. Patience, maturity and blistering pace when in clear air. The start was the only blemish.. it was very poor, but so far this season he looks on old form IMO.

I guess the Rosberg thing was a bit untidy but Rosberg used the regs to the full extent, he defended pretty well. And the places where Mark seemed quicker where the places where it's hard to make a move, like into that fast chicane. What was impressive was that once Rosberg was out of the way, there was still plenty of meat left in the tyres and put down some very fast laptimes lap after lap, even after they had the whole stint in dirty air.

He compared well with Vettel this weekend overall, I guess the only question mark is whether or not Vettel was lacking something due to short testing/practice time and not enough data to get a good setup. Vettel could be able to find alot of time in future races but it also seems likely that the new regs hurt him a bit.



#5716 goingthedistance

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:36

Finishing 2 seconds behind Vettel is a lot better than where he was Melbourne last year.

The tyre issues do seem sorted, thankfully. When he was in clean air he looked to have better pace than Sebastian.

I noticed that it took longer for the RB8 to switch on the tyres than the McLaren - is that behind their slower quali pace and Mark's advantage over Seb in that session?

#5717 FPV GTHO

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:39

McLaren had better tyre warm up last year as well though, hence they appeared to have better wet pace.

#5718 GeoffR

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 09:43

Red Bull need to find some straight line speed, especially with Malaysia & China coming up. Even with DRS open Webber was unable to make up ground on the Merc or McLaren in the DRS zones, whereas they (Merc & McLaren) were passing others relatively easily. No use having DRS available if it doesn't work for you!

#5719 HoldenRT

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Posted 18 March 2012 - 15:47

The car characteristics and Mark's driving itself reminds me very much of the 2006 Williams season he had. In that one he didn't get the results (reliablity) but I thought he drove great. And he looks to be on similar form again for this season, so at least.. if this is his last season, he will go out with a bang.

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#5720 Mohawkk

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 04:52

Go Webber, Not perfect, but all things considered not a bad way to start the year

#5721 DILLIGAF

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 05:08

A weekend to be happy about for Webber-supporters - the pace he showed for parts of the race, under equal circumstances was really impressive. Hopefully this weekend is a pointer and he'll be all over Vettel this year, fighting for the title again.


:up: Good result considering the drop to 9th at T1. The RB8 looks good in race trim. If Mark can sort out his start issues he may be able to give Seb a run for his money.

Also, a message to RBR. Please fix your fricken KERS system!!!! :evil:

#5722 Ian G

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 06:03

$50 he finishes 5th... :lol: :well:


Nearly....


Yeah,great start to the season,could be the Black Horse in the championship.Sorry guys,esp.this early in the season but Ferrari rumours abounded in the paddock during the week,even James Allen ran with it,can't see it myself but probaly based on Mark's "palsy/walsy" talks with Alonso. MPO is one more year with RB or paid by them to retire.

Edited by Ian G, 19 March 2012 - 06:06.


#5723 FPV GTHO

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 13:10

Dont really see why they would pay him to retire. They would need to put him in a contract for next year or stop racing him this year to do so.

#5724 Alfisti

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 13:34

If Mark can sort out his start issues


We have been saying that for 9 years.

#5725 GhostR

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 13:57

Poor start off the line, and overly cautious into T1. But from there on a pretty good race.

Question, as I only watched BBC replay and haven't looked too much into Mark's race since: based on posts above, his KERS was still on the blink during the race?

#5726 Alfisti

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 14:11

If KERS wasn't on the blink it was absolute shite cos he was dog slow on the straights.

#5727 flyer121

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 14:15

If RBR want to enter the title draws this year , both Seb & Mark needs to be on the podiums stealing points from Macca whereever they can.
Hunting in pair is the phrase which comes to mind ...

#5728 goingthedistance

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 17:18

Anyone else think Mark's looking a bit anorexic at the moment?

Posted Image

I understand he's lost another kilogram on last season, he's very gaunt in the cheeks at the moment.

#5729 Ian G

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 22:32

Dont really see why they would pay him to retire. They would need to put him in a contract for next year or stop racing him this year to do so.


Its an option,and IMO a very likely one,like they did with DC,they are under contract and called a "consultant" or something similar,they are still with RB but just not driving,just stops Mark taking current RB Tech. elsewhere in the short term.
I think Mark has missed the Ferrari boat but you never know esp. with great doubt over RK,Ferrari have to get a driver from somewhere unless Massa has a form reversal but they may take a risk and run with one of the young guns that are starting to show great form.

#5730 LukeM

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 22:59

I think the Ferrari seat will be going to Perez, hes been mighty impressive. In regards to Mark, I think he may have 1 more year at RBR left in him and than he will call it a day. Hopefully by than Dan has impressed enough to take his seat.

#5731 Hippo

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 23:01

Imho the Ferrari option is not that interesting for Mark. From the Italians' point of view they need better engineers. Their problem is not Massa alone. Their biggest problem is, that their cars suck. And for Mark a switch to Ferrari would be a big step backward. From a sporting point of view I think it makes no sense for him to join the prancing horse. He'll try to use the rumors as leverage, but I doubt he'd join them.

#5732 Dunder

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 00:21

Poor start off the line, and overly cautious into T1. But from there on a pretty good race.

Question, as I only watched BBC replay and haven't looked too much into Mark's race since: based on posts above, his KERS was still on the blink during the race?


His KERS was fine.


#5733 sanjiro

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 00:30

His KERS was fine.



No it wasnt.
MW told the team in one of the broadcast radio conversations that his KERS was patchy.
It was also clear by the KERS readouts when MWs was shown that it was not discharging fully (or not charged fully depending on how that display is calculated)
So it was working as well as MSs gearbox

#5734 Clatter

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 00:43

Do RB use the Renault KERS or their own design?

#5735 sanjiro

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 01:11

Do RB use the Renault KERS or their own design?



Renault


#5736 Andromeda

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 01:14

Seems Webber never got rid of the biggest problem he suffered from last year which was losing places off the grid for a majority of the races. I hope this was just a one off thing but my gut feeling tells me Webber will be losing more places at race starts as he season goes on.

#5737 GreenMachine

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 01:22

MW is quoted somewhere saying that after the start, 'he had a bigger recovery job than he expected', or words to that effect.

To me, this was saying that he was expecting to make a bad start, or to lose positions at the start, but that he lost more ground than he expected.

So, I do not think he was saying 'I am going to make a bad start', rather 'the car is not going to get away as quickly as the others around me' - ie the car has a problem making a good start.

The two possibilities I see are 1) KERS is not working (properly) at the start, or that something else (starting clutch) is not working as it should.

My money is on the KERS.

And on that subject, I think AN is going to have to re-evaluate his stance on KERS, as without the speed advantage, the loss of the extra grunt is going to hurt if you need to make regular overtakes, which is where RB are now.

#5738 GreenMachine

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 01:26

Renault


That is an oversimplification.

They have their own batteries, apparently located where others do not have them, and they are of lower capacity IIRC. All in order for AN to continue to worship at the altar of the great god Aero. :rolleyes:

#5739 lbennie

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 01:28

MW is quoted somewhere saying that after the start, 'he had a bigger recovery job than he expected', or words to that effect.

To me, this was saying that he was expecting to make a bad start, or to lose positions at the start, but that he lost more ground than he expected.


i don't think so. He was starting from fifth, so he needed to recover places to get on the podium. so he had a recovery job regardless of his start.


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#5740 Brother Fox

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 01:33

I think AN is going to have to re-evaluate his stance on KERS


Yep!

Also agree with lbennie that his comment may well have been in relation to not qualifying where they should/wanted to be rather than expecting a slow start.


#5741 Dunder

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 01:36

No it wasnt.
MW told the team in one of the broadcast radio conversations that his KERS was patchy.
It was also clear by the KERS readouts when MWs was shown that it was not discharging fully (or not charged fully depending on how that display is calculated)
So it was working as well as MSs gearbox


From all the onboard shots/feed I saw (maybe 20% of the race) there was no problem. I don't recall any radio transmission to that effect from the FOM radio feed (although it is possible I missed it). Mark was told a couple of times that he was trying to engage DRS too early for the second zone.
http://www.dailymoti...auto#from=embed

The RBR KERS never shows on screen as being fully discharged because it is a 'KERS lite'. It can only physically be activated for around 4 seconds per lap whereas the screen graphic assumes it can be used for the full 6.5 allowed by the regulations.

Edited by Dunder, 20 March 2012 - 02:15.


#5742 DILLIGAF

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 02:37

We have been saying that for 9 years.


Yeah, good point. Maybe 10th year lucky? :)

krapmeister posted this in the SV vs MW thread regarding Mark's start:

From the Age newspaper:

Webber was also relieved at team confirmation after the race that his poor start was caused by a clutch malfunction as he engaged it, not because of any mistake he made. ''Procedurally, they were quite satisfied with what I did [off the start line], so that's a positive from my side,'' he said

Edited by DILLIGAF, 20 March 2012 - 02:57.


#5743 DILLIGAF

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 02:43

Nearly....


Yeah,great start to the season,could be the Black Horse in the championship.Sorry guys,esp.this early in the season but Ferrari rumours abounded in the paddock during the week,even James Allen ran with it,can't see it myself but probaly based on Mark's "palsy/walsy" talks with Alonso. MPO is one more year with RB or paid by them to retire.


I reckon Ferrari will approach Perez ahead of Webbo. Would love to see Mark in the scarlet red but don't think it will happen.

#5744 slideways

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 03:31

MW is quoted somewhere saying that after the start, 'he had a bigger recovery job than he expected', or words to that effect.

To me, this was saying that he was expecting to make a bad start, or to lose positions at the start, but that he lost more ground than he expected.

So, I do not think he was saying 'I am going to make a bad start', rather 'the car is not going to get away as quickly as the others around me' - ie the car has a problem making a good start.

The two possibilities I see are 1) KERS is not working (properly) at the start, or that something else (starting clutch) is not working as it should.

My money is on the KERS.

And on that subject, I think AN is going to have to re-evaluate his stance on KERS, as without the speed advantage, the loss of the extra grunt is going to hurt if you need to make regular overtakes, which is where RB are now.


They are not able to engage KERS until they hit 100kph (around 2 seconds after launch) and by that point he had already been passed by multiple cars. Mark also lifted much earlier than the cars around him, which is why the STR and FI cars flew by then tagged his front wheels.

#5745 slideways

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 03:33

Yeah, good point. Maybe 10th year lucky? :)

krapmeister posted this in the SV vs MW thread regarding Mark's start:

From the Age newspaper:

Webber was also relieved at team confirmation after the race that his poor start was caused by a clutch malfunction as he engaged it, not because of any mistake he made. ''Procedurally, they were quite satisfied with what I did [off the start line], so that's a positive from my side,'' he said


That quote is not a confirmation of a clutch malfunction. :confused:

Also let's remember that it's Webber's job to do test launches and find and set the clutch bite points on the way to the grid or the warm up lap.

#5746 krapmeister

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 04:20

That quote is not a confirmation of a clutch malfunction. :confused:

Also let's remember that it's Webber's job to do test launches and find and set the clutch bite points on the way to the grid or the warm up lap.


I posted it but then said I hadn't seen any confirmation of this in the official quotes, nor any interviews with Horner - so take it with a grain of salt. Webber's quote though is not necessarily the 'team confirmation' that was referred to either, and merely an expansion on the issue from Mark...

#5747 EarnardBeccelstone

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 04:41

After slipping down to ninth, I was quite glad to see Mark get his best ever finish in Australia.

Another solid recovery drive, although he was a bit lucky that some of the cars ahead fell off the track or got caught up with slower traffic on different strategies. The recovery drive is becoming something of a specialty for Mark - China last year and Spa 2010 come to mind.

Its a little odd, but fourth place is actually his best ever start to a season.

Hopefully he can improve further up the grid in Malaysia, both in qualification and in positions. He's got a good qualifying record at Sepang, although his race record there is less than stellar - one podium in ten appearances, one ignominious spin in 2004, tangling with Fisichella at the same corner in 2005 as well as a handful of points finished and a equal number of mechanicals.

I'd hold reservations on how he is driving relative to Sebastian until after the Chinese GP. One result is just a data point, two points form a line and three points give a trend.

#5748 Supersleeper

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 05:31

..and find and set the clutch bite points on the way to the grid or the warm up lap.

No - it isn't.

#5749 slideways

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 06:18

Yes it is.

#5750 v@sh

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 06:21

No - it isn't.


Supersleeper is correct, if you read Heikki's blog last year where he went through the start procedure process the driver does burnouts etc. throughout the warm up lap so the engineer can see what the optimal clutch point is as the conditions can change quite a bit. It is then up to the engineers to key in the optimal clutch bite points - not the driver. If the driver has done the correct start procedure at the lights and no delay in reaction time and yet the engineer enters the wrong values, then who's fault is it then?

I think everyone assumes that just because we have got rid of launch control, the whole process is driver driven which isn't necessarily the case. Webber's starts just look even worse because he is so cautious going into the first corner these days. I reckon he needs to remove that mentality just because he has had incidents in the past.

What I want to know is what was the difference between the 2011 starting specification versus the 2010 starting specification RBR switched Webber back last year when he was having poor starts. Also why on earth did it take them almost 3/4 of the season before they switched him to that system when it was plain for everyone to see Webber was struggling off the line.