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Should Hulkenberg have got a penalty?


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#101 prty

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 16:26

You are not getting my point. He made a mistake in his braking and cut the chicane. If there was a wall there like Monaco, he would not do that. He knew he could take the risk and gain from it without risking his race if it pays off. Therefore cutting a chicane is an advantage.


So are you saying that Hamilton et al. should be penalised after jumping the chicane in the first lap two weeks ago? :eek:

Edit: Or now that I think of it, Hamilton also benefitted from using the gravel while going off in the same GP, had it been Monaco... actually every driver that go off in a GP but rejoins should be penalised!

Edited by prty, 12 September 2010 - 16:30.


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#102 Slowinfastout

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 16:27

That is exactly my point :up:


I understand that point but it's very academic, and it's a bit cheap to detract the Hulk @ Monza behavior thread with it, IMHO

#103 Cenotaph

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 16:27

its not like all the drivers are racing in different conditions, that discussion is irrelevant. the track is what it is.

#104 Kompressor

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 16:30

They need to put more speed bumps and pot holes in the run-off area to force the driver to drastically slow down. They wouldn't be cutting chicanes if there was more of a disadvantage built in.

#105 UprightRacer

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 16:33

naa i dont think so..

#106 jesee

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 16:34

They need to put more speed bumps and pot holes in the run-off area to force the driver to drastically slow down. They wouldn't be cutting chicanes if there was more of a disadvantage built in.


It seems as long as it is Alonso, then it is ok. Note here, iam not saying he should have been penalized. All what iam saying is that the stewards were just being consistent with Hulkenburg though he did actually take the mickey.

#107 Bloggsworth

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 16:35

Algy did it once and got a penalty, I counted at least 3 times for Hulkenberg - Go figure.

#108 Slowinfastout

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 16:44

A Red Bull took that escape route at the first chicane on lap 1... maybe race control got a few calls about that and chose to let it go, so when Red Bull called about Hulkenberg, it was decided to let that go as well to restore some kind of balance...

I think the FIA will generally allow Williams alot of slack compared to some other teams... but that's tin-foil hat territory I guess..

#109 Welsh

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 16:47

If you look on the Autosport race gallery - after the race start there is Alguersuari picture of him cutting - PLUS I spy Webber doing the same as well.....


as for "3" time rule - is that published anywhere or is that one of "Charlie's Rules" ie in his head and not printed.

#110 alan

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 16:48

It is never right for driver to cut a chicane because then it negates its use. In the old days, there were walls, gravel and grass. These days it seems everything goes.

Cutting a chicane is a risk a driver takes and they dont do that where there is a wall.

#111 PassWind

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 16:55

There is a difference between someone not answering their phone when they choose not or because they are dead. Contextually all incidents should be treated separately because they occur for different reasons.

I don't think Alonso cut the chicane to wash a second of his lap time, but when Hulkenburg was doing it he was gaining time. Alonso kind of didn't really cut it either he ended up smashing through the ripple strips a bit, which is where he lost the second, Hulks just drove a different lap than the other 50 he did.

#112 alan

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 17:02

There is a difference between someone not answering their phone when they choose not or because they are dead. Contextually all incidents should be treated separately because they occur for different reasons.

I don't think Alonso cut the chicane to wash a second of his lap time, but when Hulkenburg was doing it he was gaining time. Alonso kind of didn't really cut it either he ended up smashing through the ripple strips a bit, which is where he lost the second, Hulks just drove a different lap than the other 50 he did.


This does not wash with me. Yes he lost time, but if there was a wall there he would never take the risk he took. In other words, he can afford to out brake himself by carrying more speed or whatever mistake he makes without the risk like in Monaco. So a driver following him, or infront of him, who takes the chicane normaly, looses in one way or another....in the fact that his opponent is not punished by the track for making a mistake which he would not take if there was no way of cutting the chicane.

Iam not saying they should get a penalty but it is not right and disadavantages other competitors obeying the rule of the RACING track.


#113 goat0063

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 17:57

Hulk - drive through for the 3rd offense.
Alonso - does anyone seriously think that deserved a penalty? JB was not near enough.

#114 marcoferrari

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 18:12

Dissapointed about Fittipaldi... I expected more from him... Alguersuari was penalised now after Spa again and again it wasn t even showed on TV to see the situation properly... Hulkenberg was cutting 1st chicane 3 times today and nothing... It seems for stewards it was everything "ok"... FIA should release a list of drivers, who are "untouchable" and who can do everything without being punished, that we know what to expect...

#115 808Fail

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 20:25

Definitely. He cut it a few times and the final occasion clearly kept him ahead of Webber.


#116 JtP1

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 20:30

Has nobody noticed the FIA is now officially run by Ferrari? That short French fellow ... What's his name ....you know the one....


Are you suggesting that FIA stands for "Ferrari Illegalities Allowed"?

On the original thread, I like most were under the impression that it was a drive through for all wheels off the track at a chicane 3 times. It was certainly the announced rule a few years ago when the lowered the kerbs.

#117 One

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 20:38

Yes. His moves were not OK.

#118 baddog

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 20:40

I thought so at the time, he was really taking the piss.

That said I dont think in any specific incident webber would have got by him if he had slowed more to get round, so Mark needed to worry less about Hulkenberg's offs and just get on and pass him. Lost a place mucking about.

#119 KateLM

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 20:44

A Red Bull took that escape route at the first chicane on lap 1... maybe race control got a few calls about that and chose to let it go, so when Red Bull called about Hulkenberg, it was decided to let that go as well to restore some kind of balance...

I think the FIA will generally allow Williams alot of slack compared to some other teams... but that's tin-foil hat territory I guess..

That was Vettel, not Webber, and it looked like he was forced to take it because he was muscled out. That is completely different to Hulkenburg cutting the chicane 3 times (that we saw) when there were only one or two cars around him.

I was impressed with his speed today, but I don't think jumping chicanes like that should be encouraged.

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#120 One

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 21:00

I thought so at the time, he was really taking the piss.

That said I dont think in any specific incident webber would have got by him if he had slowed more to get round, so Mark needed to worry less about Hulkenberg's offs and just get on and pass him. Lost a place mucking about.


The last one was terrible.

#121 ensign14

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 21:20

Simple truth is ANY chicane cutting should warrant a penalty. Make them put the limiter on for five seconds. At a minimum. The chicane is part of the circuit, going off the circuit pre-Health & Safety often resulted in retirement or serious delay.

For years the rule was you had to give up an advantage. Then Mr Schumacher kept doing it and Mr Mosley decided that it was OK if you were keeping ahead.

Then the rule was you had to give up a place if you gained one. Then Mr Hamilton did it and Mr Mosley decided that that was not enough and invented a false precedent to justify the most bent decision since 1984.

Now we're at a stage where nobody really knows what should. Hulk avoided a penalty so now we know. You can miss chicanes at least three times without giving up an advantage.

#122 jesee

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 22:27

Simple truth is ANY chicane cutting should warrant a penalty. Make them put the limiter on for five seconds. At a minimum. The chicane is part of the circuit, going off the circuit pre-Health & Safety often resulted in retirement or serious delay.

For years the rule was you had to give up an advantage. Then Mr Schumacher kept doing it and Mr Mosley decided that it was OK if you were keeping ahead.

Then the rule was you had to give up a place if you gained one. Then Mr Hamilton did it and Mr Mosley decided that that was not enough and invented a false precedent to justify the most bent decision since 1984.

Now we're at a stage where nobody really knows what should. Hulk avoided a penalty so now we know. You can miss chicanes at least three times without giving up an advantage.


It gets ridiculous by the minute. Who sat down and decided three cuts and then penalty? Where is the rule? Why not ten cuts or five cuts or eight cuts? The fact of the matter is whether it is Hulkenburg or our beloved Alonso, it is wrong. What makes it worse for me is remembering Spa 2008. You give the place back yet you are punished for it. Ridiculous rules.

Edited by jesee, 12 September 2010 - 22:41.


#123 Supersleeper

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 22:35

Are you suggesting that FIA stands for "Ferrari Illegalities Allowed"?

Well they have a history....

I think Ferrari was given a "home court advantage".... it just manifested itself with limiting the points of the driver leading the championship got.

Generally the FIA are a bunch of bureaucrats whose only interest is politics and self promotion. Appointing attendees who are most deserving of a holiday at a GP as stewards is paramount to providing delegates who would be most likely to make the most competent decisions having had direct experience. The driver steward is a augmentation to the farce, not a fix for it. The panel should consist of former drivers only...
Hulkenbergs permittance to continually cut chicanes provided us with the most annoying aspect of the sport - a lack of consistency. Buemi on the day for example...

Had Lewis Hamilton cut the chicanes the way Hulkenberg did...... well - it would have produced a different result.... well all know that - and it's why none of us who have watched the sport for a considerable period of time have any respect for the mechanisms that provide a bunch of administrative tourists the opportunity far beyond their capabilities as stewards of a Formula 1 race.

Here's the stewards leaving the track yesterday...

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#124 Dunder

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 22:52

Simple truth is ANY chicane cutting should warrant a penalty. Make them put the limiter on for five seconds. At a minimum. The chicane is part of the circuit, going off the circuit pre-Health & Safety often resulted in retirement or serious delay.

For years the rule was you had to give up an advantage. Then Mr Schumacher kept doing it and Mr Mosley decided that it was OK if you were keeping ahead.

Then the rule was you had to give up a place if you gained one. Then Mr Hamilton did it and Mr Mosley decided that that was not enough and invented a false precedent to justify the most bent decision since 1984.

Now we're at a stage where nobody really knows what should. Hulk avoided a penalty so now we know. You can miss chicanes at least three times without giving up an advantage.


............... unless you are Jamie Alguersuari (who has been penalised in two successive races).


#125 Lights

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 22:55

Simple truth is ANY chicane cutting should warrant a penalty. Make them put the limiter on for five seconds. At a minimum. The chicane is part of the circuit, going off the circuit pre-Health & Safety often resulted in retirement or serious delay.

For years the rule was you had to give up an advantage. Then Mr Schumacher kept doing it and Mr Mosley decided that it was OK if you were keeping ahead.

Then the rule was you had to give up a place if you gained one. Then Mr Hamilton did it and Mr Mosley decided that that was not enough and invented a false precedent to justify the most bent decision since 1984.

Now we're at a stage where nobody really knows what should. Hulk avoided a penalty so now we know. You can miss chicanes at least three times without giving up an advantage.

Humorous history lesson. :up:

#126 Supersleeper

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 22:59

............... unless you are Jamie Alguersuari (who has been penalised in two successive races).

...how about ....unless your team is a drinks company that was implied as one of the leading forces in a proposed breakaway group.... and the FIA would like to take it's time in teaching you how not to upset the apple cart..... in any way it can ..... by changing the rules on the track...and off it ... in parc ferme say.

#127 slideways

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 23:35

They should put land mines on the chicanes IMO. Or at least the compressed air ones.

#128 Ali_G

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 23:48

Put down very abrassive tarmac, so abrassive that you would have to go in for another set of tyres.

The red tarmac in the run off areas at Paul Ricard are this abrassive.

People would stop cutting the hairpin then.

Edited by Ali_G, 12 September 2010 - 23:50.


#129 BennyJohnson

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Posted 12 September 2010 - 23:49

It just show's how terribly inconsistent the FIA have been this season. Alonso got a Penalty in Hockenheim for being shoved off the racetrack and gaining a place, Algesuari got a drive through for something very similar (but far less obvious) and the FIA didn't even investigate it.

They were asleep when it happened.

I don't mind if it's not given, but it's consistency that annoys me. Where one driver gets a penalty, and another driver will do the exact same thing and get off scot free...

It deffinetly cost Mark a place, maybe even 2. He was far quicker than Rosberg.

#130 baddog

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 00:07

For years the rule was you had to give up an advantage. Then Mr Schumacher kept doing it and Mr Mosley decided that it was OK if you were keeping ahead.


ahah ahah ahhhaha

It was Montoya who practically patented using chicane cutting as a defense technique, but Im sure you could remember that if you tried.

#131 Seanspeed

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 00:48

A penalty would be harsh considering we've seen plenty of drivers do it in the past without getting penalized.

If they want to start giving penalties for this sort of thing, they need to let the drivers know ahead of time.

Ideally, they(the FIA and track organizers) just need to find a way to ensure that the cars lose a good amount of time by doing it.

#132 Ali_G

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 00:53

A penalty would be harsh considering we've seen plenty of drivers do it in the past without getting penalized.

If they want to start giving penalties for this sort of thing, they need to let the drivers know ahead of time.

Ideally, they(the FIA and track organizers) just need to find a way to ensure that the cars lose a good amount of time by doing it.



This is what gravel traps and grass were for, before tracks started installing relief roads.

WTF is the need for that one they've put into the retifilio this year. All it's done is create contraversy.

#133 BundyDropBear

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 00:54

Definitely should have been a penalty, or at the very least an order to yield. Hulk gained an advantage from cutting the chicane (particularly the 3rd time) by not being as slow as he would have if he had stayed on track. And therefore he avoided being under pressure (or immediately overtaken by Webber).

Try explaining that to Alg though too I guess. He has a right to be confused.

So much for former drivers being a better choice. Bring back Hill.

#134 Dunder

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 01:01

A penalty would be harsh considering we've seen plenty of drivers do it in the past without getting penalized.

If they want to start giving penalties for this sort of thing, they need to let the drivers know ahead of time.

Ideally, they(the FIA and track organizers) just need to find a way to ensure that the cars lose a good amount of time by doing it.


Tell the drivers that if they cut a chicane, they need to be 3 or 4 seconds slower in that sector compared to their qualifying time otherwise it is a drive-through.
No need for spikes or landmines and the FIA don't have to bring back gravel/grass which they are obviously looking to phase out.

While we are at it, there could be a similar "slow down penalty" for running wide at places like Pouhon or Istanbul T8.

Edited by Dunder, 13 September 2010 - 01:02.


#135 zoombie

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 01:54

A penalty would be harsh considering we've seen plenty of drivers do it in the past without getting penalized.

If they want to start giving penalties for this sort of thing, they need to let the drivers know ahead of time.

Ideally, they(the FIA and track organizers) just need to find a way to ensure that the cars lose a good amount of time by doing it.

Apparently they did.
http://www.planetf1....-Monza-chicanes

#136 Dispenser89

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 02:16

This is what gravel traps and grass were for, before tracks started installing relief roads.

WTF is the need for that one they've put into the retifilio this year. All it's done is create contraversy.

The road in the middle of the retfillio? It's for the bikes.

#137 Tsarwash

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 02:23

I like the idea of a manditory 3 second burst on the rev limiter if all four wheels go off the track on the inside of any corner, even if you are shoved off. It would stop silly discussions like this.

The problem is that the FIA rules are vague, and enforced inconsistantly, again. Todt and Charlie need to write down the rules of the game, and make sure that the stewards enforce them. If it's 3 strikes and a drive through, then it needs to be known as such, and enforced. If this is just guidance, then let us know for gods sake. This much argueing about the finer rules of what is actually a pretty simple thing, is just incompetance from the FIA. Max seemed to excel in writing rules that could be interperated many ways.

#138 SPBHM

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 03:04

anyone have the lap times?
maybe Alguersuari did a faster lap by cutting it and Hulkenberg don't?



#139 BundyDropBear

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 04:53

You don't have to do a faster lap time to gain an advantage, when the benefit of going off is not having to lock up or take a compromised line through the turn you just skipped. Especially when you have guys behind you.

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#140 SPBHM

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 05:29

You don't have to do a faster lap time to gain an advantage, when the benefit of going off is not having to lock up or take a compromised line through the turn you just skipped. Especially when you have guys behind you.


yes, but since it was nos a so clear advantage to cut the track there, I think is something to consider?!

anyway, I need to re-watch what happened, I don't remember seeing what Alguersuari did,

#141 Henrytheeigth

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 06:44

He was wrong, the stewards had started a party before lap one and were drunk by lap 5 already, and that's that really lol

#142 One

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Posted 13 September 2010 - 06:56

He was wrong, the stewards had started a party before lap one and were drunk by lap 5 already, and that's that really lol


Penalty Kick! :lol: