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#1 john medley

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 05:05

One perhaps for The Nostalgia Forum traditionalists:

Mentioned in passing in the Fiat S76 thread is a Lion Peugeot the chassis of which may at one time have been confused with other chassis.

The historic information I appear to have is that this car was crashed in a record attempt from Armidale in northern New South Wales to the coast -- pretty wild country in those days. Hearing decades later of the crashed remains half buried by the roadside, two veteran racing car enthusiasts from Melbourne went north, rescued the remains, and took them back to Melbourne. The bits passed through various hands(mostly mentioned in the Fiat S76 thread), claims made that it was a genuine Lion Peugeot Grand Prix voiturette apparently being confirmed in writing by Griffith Borgeson and Serge Pozzoli after they matched photographs and other evidence against French records. My impression is that the crash was 1920s or earlier, disinterment 1930s or 1940s, and clearer identification 1960s or 1970s. The chassis was sold to France.

The historic information I dont have is any record at all -- even a minor newspaper item, of the car's presence in Australia, let alone a competition record. I do not claim to have a complete record, but no one else in Australia seems to know of anything in contemporary print about this car either.

The current owner of the single cylinder engine believes it was a 1908 or 1909 voiturette racer, but cannot find the Borgeson/ Pozzoli/etc correspondence. My research findings dont match the engine as measured. Various sources(Karslake and others perhaps using Karslake's material) suggest a range of Lion Peugeot engines 1908/1909 variously measuring 100mm bore by 170mm stroke
100 250
100 192

Last year I held this engine in my arms while the owner measured and we made notes : 105 mm by about 200 mm( could be 190 mm), the stroke measured by the score mark made by a gudgeon pin gone wild, ie capacity about 1 1/2 litres. Six overhead valves, 3 inlet 3 exhaust, each set of three carried in a screw-in cage above the hemispherical combustion chamber. Two spark plugs. Bore lubricated by a pipe low down in the cylinder

I am intrigued by this story, in which I have stood close to the evidence(so I know it is real) but can find no past in Australia for this car which clearly is/was in Australia

I can think of various TNF members who might be able to offer bits of solutions. All put together, the bits may amount to something. Over to you, ladies and gentlemen.


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#2 robert dick

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 07:26

A six-valve single was used exclusively in the 1909 Lion-Peugeot racing voiturette. Earlier Lion-Peugeot racing voiturettes were powered by L-head singles, later racers by various V-type engines. Production voiturettes were always powered by L-head engines.
The six-valve single was not designed and built by Peugeot but supplied by Boudreaux-Verdet. It was initially developped in 1908, for power boat races, for the single-cylinder 100-mm-bore class. The bore and stroke dimensions in case of the Lion-Peugeot were quoted as 100 x 250 mm.
The Boudreaux-Verdet single was also available in the dimensions of 100 x 200 mm. So it is possible that the original engine of the surviving voiturette was replaced by such a "short stroke" single, rebored to 105 mm.

Giuppone at the wheel of the 1909 Lion-Peugeot voiturette racer, 100 x 250 mm single, six-valve head - see the three vertical exhaust stubs:
http://gallica.bnf.f...8/btv1b6912528j


#3 john medley

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 08:57

Thank you Robert for this prompt and detailed response. Do you know more of Boudreaux-Verdet?

Anyone for the Australian connection for this car?

#4 robert dick

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 10:05

The shop of Louis Boudreaux and Louis Verdet was located at 8 Rue Hautefeuille, Paris.
In September 1912, Verdet founded the Le Rhône aero-engine factory, Boulevard Kellermann, Paris.

= = =

Nothing concerning the Australian connection.

#5 john medley

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 21:31

Other evidence says the 1909 VX3 Lion Peugeot with engine from Boudreaux-Verdet that the valves were not overhead. The engine (more precisely, cylinder) I held definitely had provision for overhead valves

#6 robert dick

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 09:06

In 1910, the magazine Motor Age/Chicago published a rough sketch showing the six valves arranged horizontally and radially around the cylinder head, and the comment that the valves were operated via a system of pushrods and rockers.

#7 john medley

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 22:02

Thank you, Robert , for the Motor Age reference. I had read of that article.

I cant see what an answer is to the problem: the cylinder I held had two large (4+" at a guess)internally threaded holes at the top of the combustion chamber, slightly angled so making the combustion chamber hemispherical. I was told that the two screw-in "plates" originally carried three valves each. The owner and I measured bore and stroke as shown above. I was told by the owner of the Pozzoli-Borgeson confirmation of its being a 1909 Lion Peugeot GP Voiturette. By my admittedly crude analysis this means that the cylinder/engine I held does match the description of a 1909 Lion Peugeot VX3 in that it is a six-valve single cylinder engine,and bore and stroke can be explained, but DOES NOT MATCH that description regarding bunched overhead valves against side valves radially arranged. I saw no markings on the engine to help(or confuse) us either.



#8 robert dick

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 07:48

According to the contemporary press, Boudreaux and Verdet applied for a patent relating to the six-valve single - no precisions whether the complete engine or just some solutions used in the engine were concerned.

Boudreaux-Verdet patents, but nothing relating directly to the six-valve single:
http://v3.espacenet....p;compact=false


#9 robert dick

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 10:39

Contemporary press photos of the inlet and exhaust side of the 1909 Lion-Peugeot voiturette racer powered by the Boudreaux-Verdet six-valve single - the six valves are horizontal, the valve operation (details in the crankcase) remains unclear:

Posted Image

Posted Image




#10 Ray Bell

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 21:07

It's clear, then, that the valves are not in the block...

Which agrees with what John has held in his hands.

#11 onelung

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 03:08

Robert, many thanks for your as-ever invaluable input.
The images of that engine are superb: might you have anything as clear and detailed of the Peugeot narrow-angle V-twin?
Any which I have are less than clear.
Merci en avance...

#12 robert dick

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 10:58

One of the 1910 Lion-Peugeot voiturette racers was powered by a 20-degree V-2 in the bore/stroke dimensions of 80/280 mm. One inlet valve (per cylinder) was operated by a high mounted camshaft running between the two cylinders. Two horizontal exhaust valves (per cylinder) were operated by the vertical shaft which drove the inlet camshaft. The engine was designed by Gratien Michaux.

Photo of the engine as used for record attempts at Brooklands, April 1911 (with long "overhead" exhaust) :

Posted Image

Posted Image


Boulogne, Coupe de L'Auto, September 1910, Goux at the wheel, mechanic Duvernoy:
http://gallica.bnf.f...n...n=1&Param=D


#13 john medley

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 20:13

Robert
I join with onelung in thanking you for your wonderful input, on this and other matters. I have long admired your "...Belle Epoque..." book.

The 3/4 rear view in pic 2 above reminds me of the Brooklands pic two aboard with mechanicien's head jammed firmly against driver's shoulder -- undoubtedly protecting what little remains of his right ear hearing!

#14 onelung

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 22:00

... the Brooklands pic two aboard with mechanicien's head jammed firmly against driver's shoulder -- undoubtedly protecting what little remains of his right ear hearing!


That has to be my all-time favourite motor racing image...does anyone have an idea of the speed this - er - device was capable of?
Posted Image
BTW, Karslake ("Racing Voiturettes") gives an inlet valve diameter of 62mm - in an 80mm cylinder!

Edited by onelung, 09 November 2010 - 22:12.


#15 robert dick

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 11:35

Brooklands records of the V-2 80/280 mm, April 1911:
flying half mile in 24,24 sec = 119,554 km/h;
flying 50 miles in 39 min 49,50 sec = 121,180 km/h;
100 miles in 1 h 29 min 1 sec = 108,451 km/h;
121,113 km in one hour.

Older records of the six-valve single:
flying half mile in 24,835 sec;
flying 50 miles in 43 min 24,96 sec;
100 miles in 1 h 27 min 48,54 sec;
110,56 km in one hour.

#16 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 12:13

Brooklands records of the V-2 80/280 mm, April 1911:
flying half mile in 24,24 sec = 119,554 km/h;
flying 50 miles in 39 min 49,50 sec = 121,180 km/h;
100 miles in 1 h 29 min 1 sec = 108,451 km/h;
121,113 km in one hour.

Older records of the six-valve single:
flying half mile in 24,835 sec;
flying 50 miles in 43 min 24,96 sec;
100 miles in 1 h 27 min 48,54 sec;
110,56 km in one hour.



Which in MPH is.....?

I confess I can't think/visualize anything in kilometers per hour despite being force-taught in metric from an early age.
I know 320kmh is about 200mph but that's as far as it goes.
Any figure in what James May likes to call "Roman Catholic" (metric) as opposed to "Church of England"(Imperial) may as well be in code - my brain just doesn't compute it - and yes I have always been thoroughly crap at maths! A girlfreind from some years back, who was a teacher, told me I'm discalculic... It's a recognized 'condition' apparently...
:drunk:


#17 fnqvmuch

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 12:24

Which in MPH is.....?

I confess I can't think/visualize anything in kilometers per hour despite being force-taught in metric from an early age.
I know 320kmh is about 200mph but that's as far as it goes.
Any figure in what James May likes to call "Roman Catholic" (metric) as opposed to "Church of England"(Imperial) may as well be in code - my brain just doesn't compute it - and yes I have always been thoroughly crap at maths! A girlfreind from some years back, who was a teacher, told me I'm discalculic... It's a recognized 'condition' apparently...
:drunk:

oh good - i always said i was innumerate; however it seemed wise to remember 62mph would equate to our new 100 kph maximum ...

Edited by fnqvmuch, 10 November 2010 - 12:25.


#18 scags

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 12:29

Unless we're speaking of V-2 rockets, shouldn't they be periods, not commas?

#19 Tim Murray

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 12:41

I hope Robert won't mind if I doctor his post:

Brooklands records of the V-2 80/280 mm, April 1911:
flying half mile in 24,24 sec = 119,554 km/h; 74.303 mph
flying 50 miles in 39 min 49,50 sec = 121,180 km/h; 75.314 mph
100 miles in 1 h 29 min 1 sec = 108,451 km/h; 67.403 mph
121,113 km (75.272 mph) in one hour.

Older records of the six-valve single:
flying half mile in 24,835 sec;
flying 50 miles in 43 min 24,96 sec;
100 miles in 1 h 27 min 48,54 sec;
110,56 km (68.713 mph) in one hour.


and in many countries the comma is used where Britain and the USA use the decimal point (or period).

Edited by Tim Murray, 10 November 2010 - 12:50.


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#20 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 13:48

Thanks Tim.

Actually in mph that seems pretty damn fast for a small engined car in 1911 !

For those similarly challenged "in the numbers", another effect of discalculia is the inability to instantly tell left from right, and with that come all the it's related actions such as instinctively knowing which way turn on/off taps or tighten/loosen nuts and bolts.

I struggled with this left-right thing for years in rallying. My navigator quickly found that pointing a finger within my line of sight to back up what he was reading off the pace notes had a seriously beneficial affect on which direction we were going in next!

I'm still bloody hopeless at using spanners. And taps....

apologies for the OT moment!


#21 Tim Murray

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 14:03

I struggled with this left-right thing for years in rallying.

(Staying OT - sorry) we used to have a navigator in our club who had similar problems. Before each event he used to paint L and R, very large, on the back of the appropriate hand to assist him in remembering.

#22 D-Type

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Posted 12 November 2010 - 15:30

One perhaps for The Nostalgia Forum traditionalists:

Mentioned in passing in the Fiat S76 thread is a Lion Peugeot the chassis of which may at one time have been confused with other chassis.

The historic information I appear to have is that this car was crashed in a record attempt from Armidale in northern New South Wales to the coast -- pretty wild country in those days. Hearing decades later of the crashed remains half buried by the roadside, two veteran racing car enthusiasts from Melbourne went north, rescued the remains, and took them back to Melbourne. The bits passed through various hands (mostly mentioned in the Fiat S76 thread), claims made that it was a genuine Lion Peugeot Grand Prix voiturette apparently being confirmed in writing by Griffith Borgeson and Serge Pozzoli after they matched photographs and other evidence against French records. My impression is that the crash was 1920s or earlier, disinterment 1930s or 1940s, and clearer identification 1960s or 1970s. The chassis was sold to France.

The historic information I dont have is any record at all -- even a minor newspaper item, of the car's presence in Australia, let alone a competition record. I do not claim to have a complete record, but no one else in Australia seems to know of anything in contemporary print about this car either.

The current owner of the single cylinder engine believes it was a 1908 or 1909 voiturette racer, but cannot find the Borgeson/ Pozzoli/etc correspondence. My research findings dont match the engine as measured. Various sources(Karslake and others perhaps using Karslake's material) suggest a range of Lion Peugeot engines 1908/1909 variously measuring 100mm bore by 170mm stroke
100 250
100 192

Last year I held this engine in my arms while the owner measured and we made notes : 105 mm by about 200 mm( could be 190 mm), the stroke measured by the score mark made by a gudgeon pin gone wild, ie capacity about 1 1/2 litres. Six overhead valves, 3 inlet 3 exhaust, each set of three carried in a screw-in cage above the hemispherical combustion chamber. Two spark plugs. Bore lubricated by a pipe low down in the cylinder

I am intrigued by this story, in which I have stood close to the evidence(so I know it is real) but can find no past in Australia for this car which clearly is/was in Australia

I can think of various TNF members who might be able to offer bits of solutions. All put together, the bits may amount to something. Over to you, ladies and gentlemen.



A six-valve single was used exclusively in the 1909 Lion-Peugeot racing voiturette. Earlier Lion-Peugeot racing voiturettes were powered by L-head singles, later racers by various V-type engines. Production voiturettes were always powered by L-head engines.
The six-valve single was not designed and built by Peugeot but supplied by Boudreaux-Verdet. It was initially developped in 1908, for power boat races, for the single-cylinder 100-mm-bore class. The bore and stroke dimensions in case of the Lion-Peugeot were quoted as 100 x 250 mm.
The Boudreaux-Verdet single was also available in the dimensions of 100 x 200 mm. So it is possible that the original engine of the surviving voiturette was replaced by such a "short stroke" single, rebored to 105 mm.

Giuppone at the wheel of the 1909 Lion-Peugeot voiturette racer, 100 x 250 mm single, six-valve head - see the three vertical exhaust stubs:
http://gallica.bnf.f...8/btv1b6912528j

I don't want to discredit anything that has been said here or elsewhere, but the thought has occurred to me that perhaps the engine that John Medley has seen is in fact from a power boat and the stories of a car are wishful thinking based on mis-identification of the chassis. It comes down to a question of how convincing the evidence, recollections etc are.

Edited by D-Type, 23 December 2011 - 23:37.


#23 Ray Bell

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Posted 12 November 2010 - 20:44

The problem with that, Duncan, is that there once was a chassis...

The chassis hasn't positively been identified and the principals in its rapidly-organised secreting are (I think) all deceased.

#24 Doug Nye

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Posted 12 November 2010 - 21:48

Re discalcula I recall one winter when DSJ wore a pair of gloves which he had marked L and R. Typically the L was on the right-hand one the R on the left. Never knowingly conformist... :rolleyes:

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 12 November 2010 - 22:09.


#25 elansprint72

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Posted 12 November 2010 - 22:07

That has to be my all-time favourite motor racing image...does anyone have an idea of the speed this - er - device was capable of?

BTW, Karslake ("Racing Voiturettes") gives an inlet valve diameter of 62mm - in an 80mm cylinder!


Is there a recreation of this? I'm sure I saw something similar at Race Retro a couple of years ago; might have a photo somewhere.

#26 Marticelli

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Posted 12 November 2010 - 23:51

I posted a picture of just such a recreation elsewhere on this forum at <http://forums.autosp...ic=123337&st=0> post no 27... And this car is tiny compared to the S76 so little chance of the two chassis being confused I am afraid to say...

Marticelli

#27 onelung

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Posted 13 November 2010 - 00:12

Is there a recreation of this? I'm sure I saw something similar at Race Retro a couple of years ago; might have a photo somewhere.

Good as this look-alike is, I rather suspect that the recreationist owner would dearly love to have had the V-twin engine to install, rather than the single...
But in any case, can someone out there tell me anything about the origins/provenance of the single cylinder engine he has? Boat racing, maybe?

#28 Marticelli

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Posted 23 December 2011 - 23:21

One benefit of enforced idleness in the workshop is the chance to read one's library again and recall favourite books by re-reading rather than remembering. Its strange how one's memory sometimes distorts things and also how the passage of time and the acquisition of new information from other sources changes one's understanding of a particular subject. I own a copy of Kent Karslake's excellent book referred to above, Racing Voiturettes, published in 1950 and never reprinted AFAIK, and this has twenty or more pages and many illustrations of these Lion Peugeot long stroke singles and twins.

I might scan and post these for the edification of interested TNFrs if pressed, but this might infringe Karslake's copyright. I can recommend that those interested to know more find and read this excellent book. Its scarcity means that copies when available are highly prized and highly priced. Lucky for me I managed to find a good copy at an affordable price.

I think it fair to say that no complete LP racing cars survive but seeing the currently raced replica in action is an awesome experience. In the meantime I strongly suspect, as suggested above, that it is a LP boat engine that John Medley has cradled in his arms not a racing voiturette engine, although I know many boats have used ex-racng car engines.

Marticelli

#29 john medley

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 21:26

Small but useful recent clues re this Lion Peugeot voiturette racer:

1. The letter Neville Roberts wrote to Griffith Borgeson 1988 seeking confirmation that the car was a VX3 6ohv single

2.The letter from Brian Arundale 26/11/1995 to Neville Roberts confirming $100 part payment for Lion Peugeot chassis( + firewall), the chassis later sold to France

3.I asked a fellow TNFer (who lives North Coast NSW) to describe North Coast roads between Armidale and the coast, and he mentioned that he had relatives who lived at Bellbrook on the Armidale-to-Kempsey road. He asked me if I had any other clues, so I mentioned that the name"Jim Toose" was written on a scrap of paper with the words" people nearby who knew about it" (ie the car as found after the accident). Fellow TNFer: "Jim Toose was the executor of my relative's will and I have Jim Toose's will at home". Further checking told him that the Lion Peugeot was not mentioned in Jim Toose's will, but this remarkable coinciding of stuff appears to give us an accident location

#30 john medley

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 00:25

Research on this car continues.

We now have an accident location and witnesses, photos and news reports of the 1931 accident, names of the two occupants( and some family history on each), photos of the inverted car's remain 1961, and photos of the engine as it is now.

It was clearly NOT Fiat S76, it looks like the Stuart Middlehurst/ Bob Chamberlain "Lion Peugeot" opinion had some validity, but ultimately right now we have doubts re that opinion:
1. The chassis may or may not have been Lion Peugeot.
2. The engine is definitely not a VX3, nor any Lion Peugeot engine we can identify
3. No registration evidence has been found under "Peugeot" or "Lion Peugeot"

The engine is fixed head, overhead valve, hemi head single cylinder -- very similar to the 1905 Pipe multicylinder Borgeson illustrates in his "Twin Cam" book .

Suggestions from experts invited!

#31 john medley

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 07:44

Just when my searching was suggesting to me that this could not possibly be a Lion Peugeot, what do I find almost by accident on an Australian Peugeot site called "Aussie Frogs"........

(from Russell Hall of Wombat Ridge, Victoria) " There was even a Lion Peugeot imported around 1911"

Perhaps fellow TNFer and "Aussie Frogs" poster One Lung can help here? Or anyone?

#32 Steve L

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 11:45

Research on this car continues.

We now have an accident location and witnesses, photos and news reports of the 1931 accident, names of the two occupants( and some family history on each), photos of the inverted car's remain 1961, and photos of the engine as it is now.

It was clearly NOT Fiat S76, it looks like the Stuart Middlehurst/ Bob Chamberlain "Lion Peugeot" opinion had some validity, but ultimately right now we have doubts re that opinion:
1. The chassis may or may not have been Lion Peugeot.
2. The engine is definitely not a VX3, nor any Lion Peugeot engine we can identify
3. No registration evidence has been found under "Peugeot" or "Lion Peugeot"

The engine is fixed head, overhead valve, hemi head single cylinder -- very similar to the 1905 Pipe multicylinder Borgeson illustrates in his "Twin Cam" book .

Suggestions from experts invited!


Any chance of posting the pictures you refer to of the inverted car's remains circa 1961 please John?

Did you see the recent article in The Automobile magazine regarding the early racing Peugeots?

#33 Ray Bell

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 20:47

There's an outside chance I'll be in John's part of the world in the next day or two...

If I am I'll see what I can do to assist him to get the pics posted. This is a fascinating story.

#34 Dick Willis

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 21:04

Try this one, not very clear but it does give some idea of the underside of the car

Posted Image

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#35 Dick Willis

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 21:33

Another view of it

Posted Image

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#36 john medley

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 21:39

Dick
Thanks for that(and lots more)
This photo was taken May 1931 by the mother of the 90 year old who I spoke to in April 2012 and who was there the day after the accident.
The strange object lying across the chassis is a suitcase
Observations and comments invited and welcome.

#37 Michael Ferner

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 21:52

Difficult to say anything without studying photos in comparison, but my first thought was: did any Lion have twin-chain drive? I think not...

#38 fnqvmuch

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Posted 01 May 2012 - 21:52

Just when my searching was suggesting to me that this could not possibly be a Lion Peugeot, what do I find almost by accident on an Australian Peugeot site called "Aussie Frogs"........

(from Russell Hall of Wombat Ridge, Victoria) " There was even a Lion Peugeot imported around 1911"

Perhaps fellow TNFer and "Aussie Frogs" poster One Lung can help here? Or anyone?


Russell has been - as much as possible - making an exhaustive search of the importation of peugeots from the earliest;
his reference in this case would seem to be a classified advertisement.
If you think it is worth contacting to get his sources, pm me for introduction or wait for him to find this ...

Edited by fnqvmuch, 01 May 2012 - 22:29.


#39 john medley

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Posted 02 May 2012 - 07:25

I have pm-ed you, fnqvmuch

Michael Ferner, after checking many pics I am satisfied that a continuing feature of Lion Peugeots 1907-1912 was the twin chain drive shown on the upturned vehicle.
What does mystify me is the bottom of the engine shown on the upturned vehicle

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#40 john medley

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 08:08

Fnqvmuch: any news from our Wombat Ridge Peugeot historian?

#41 fnqvmuch

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 14:14


"The 1911 Lion Peugeot was a classified ad in Melbourne, no details given.
Russell"
(sorry, received on 2nd of May, but pm following in due course...)

#42 Steve L

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Posted 05 May 2012 - 16:25

Looking at the pictures of the upturned car, the rear spring hangers seem to be more like those of the Peugeot road cars than of the racing cars. I have the frame from a 1913 Peugeot Type 143 and the way the rear hangers curve around back on themselves is identical.

Also, the length of the engine underside/sump of the upturned car seems to be very long to have been for a single cylinder?

Attached below are a few pictures showing an early Peugeot sump owned by a friend (sorry for the quality - it is a photo of two photos!). The little penned arrow indicates Peugeot markings on the casting.

Posted Image

Edited by Steve L, 05 May 2012 - 16:36.


#43 john medley

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 11:21

Thanks, Steve L. All information is of value.

I agree: the engine in the upturned car DOES look like one with more than one cylinder, and "your" sump approximates what we can see. We can see a big flywheel that also appears not to belong on a single. It is, of course, possible that the single cylinder engine Neville Roberts has does not belong to that chassis -- even though he, Stuart Middlehurst, Bob Chamberlain, Serge Pozzoli, and Griffith Borgeson all say/said it did. Neville insists that the 1961 (?)photos subsequently flood damaged showed originally a single cylinder engine

Peugeot historian Russell tells me that he will find for me the "Lion Peugeot" "around 1911"advertisement mentioned above, but suggests that it undoubtedly wasnt what we seek -- on the basis that a real racing car would have generated much publicity at the time

... which still leaves us with this unusual chain driven chassis upside down in the watercourse for 30 years, and an unusual engine in advance of its time -- which may or may not have been in the inverted chassis. I am currently investigating Aries, Aster, Picker, and Pipe engines of the 1908 period. Suggestions and details welcome.

We now know that there wasnt a race from Armidale to the coast. What I think I may now be on the edge of finding is that the car and its two occupants which fell over at Bellbrook did not come from Armidale at all, but rather from somewhere short of Armidale up the Macleay River valley where several of the families involved lived. This may well explain why my searches in Armidale have generally proved fruitless

#44 Dick Willis

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 07:29

John Medley has asked me to post these Lion Peugeot pics, no doubt he will be adding more explanation.

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#45 john medley

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 21:00

Thanks, Dick

This is the remains of the engine dragged with chassis, firewall, wheels etc out of the Bellbrook watercourse early 1960s by Stuart Middlehurst and Bob Chamberlain. Photos taken at that time show this inverted in the mud.

100mm bore 180mm stroke, fixed head, hemispherical combustion chamber, overhead valves at 87 degrees, twin spark plugs, water cooled, valve blocks retained by screw in rings, desaxe slot in base, cutout in base for pushrod perhaps to valve actuation, flat area on top for ohc(or other actuation). No identifying marks.

No Lion Peugeot, racing or non racing, appears to have an engine like this

The engine in one of the Aries which ran in 1908 GP de Voiturettes met this description, except it had 4 spark plugs. One Aries had desmodromic valve actuation and supercharging.

#46 john medley

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Posted 18 May 2012 - 09:38

I bump this back to the top because, while thanking all those who have contributed, I point out that TNF has never failed me before:
What is this engine, as either a single cylinder or more?

#47 eldougo

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 09:34

Found this for you John....
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#48 john medley

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 23:30

Thanks, Doug.
Hadnt seen that one before.
Hope you are well
JM

#49 The Chasm

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 05:31

Just bumping this thread back to the present.

 

Has the identity of the vehicle crashed in 1931 been resolved ?.

 

I have read the Fiat S76 thread as well, but I'm still not sure what is fact or fiction.



#50 312f1

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Posted 20 November 2013 - 15:03

Some information on the 6 valve single cylinder (and on Boudreaux and Verdet ) is available here: http://www.anciens-a...oire_Snecma.pdf

According to this information, the two-spark 1962cc (100x250) engine was built in the Rossel-PeuGeot Aviation workshop at Suresnes.