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Should Virgin and Hispania be in F1?


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#1 Tstag

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 18:51

After watching today's race I find myself starting to agree with Ferrari that the Virgin and Hispania team are way too slow to be in F1. Look at Senna's performance today and the way that both Webber and Hamilton both got into trouble behind a slow Virgin car. Whilst I feel sorry that the new teams just haven't had the time to develop their cars properly I do not feel they add much at all to F1 and probably never will. I can see Lotus coming good in the end and it may be useful if some of the bigger team's/ component suppliers help them catchup a bit quicker, but as for Hispania and Virgin. Well personally I think the bearded one should have his team dropped next year along with Hispania.

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#2 Gene and Tonic

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 18:53

Virgin? Yes. Hispania? If they can source a respectable chassis for next year. The 107% rule will determine whether they deserve to be racing or not.

#3 phil1993

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 18:54

Virgin yes - they have the ability to improve and a good infrastructure. HRT no and I have a soft spot for HRT though but they are like a less slow Minardi, cannot see them improving (where is the 2011 coming from?) and to the masses I think, Chandhok aside, they're not Minardi-like-loveable

#4 OwenC93

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 18:55

Yes, if they can survive the first year then they deserve a place next year.

Besides their cars should be much better by then.

Edited by OwenC93, 26 September 2010 - 19:01.


#5 Fastcake

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 18:55

Umm Virgin are about the same place as Lotus now, you really want to kick teams out in their first season! Did you ever watch new teams from the past, they were far further back than this years new guys are.

#6 Kerch

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 18:57

I don't see how you can lump Virgin in with Hispania.

Wirth Research have made some pretty significant contributions to motorsport with their development contributing to successful Le Mans prototypes.

At this race Glock was probably the fastest of the new teams. He was only a couple of seconds a lap off the midfield pace.

#7 Mandzipop

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 18:59

Virgin yes. They are improving. They are not bottom of the table, and the cars are far more reliable than they were earlier in the season. Di Grassi is higher than the more experienced Trulli in the championship.

HRT is a different matter, if they make it to next season, hopefully the car should be better but if not, then I'd say no.

Edited by Mandzipop, 26 September 2010 - 19:00.


#8 J2NH

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 19:03

Virgin? Yes. Hispania? If they can source a respectable chassis for next year. The 107% rule will determine whether they deserve to be racing or not.


Agree, 107% will be the decider. And keep in mind that in years gone by, with unlimited engine development, unrestricted electronics and unrestricted testing it was much tougher.


#9 r4mses

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 19:03

Yes. Next question.

#10 Wingcommander

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 19:14

Virgin (at least Glock) was the fastest of the new cars in Singapore. Glock actually did quite well holding Sutil&Co behind him for several laps. Not something we have seen this year. Both Virgins were stuck behind Alonso&Vettel when the safety car came. They couldn't just disappear when they started racing again. Yes di Grassi was in front of Webber, but accident itself was between Lewis and Mark.

HRT on the other hand seems quite miserable right now. They don't seem to have the money or the infrastructure to develop anything. Where are they going to get the next year's car, as the rules change? I can't see them having any future in F1, but hope I'm wrong.

#11 Francesc

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 19:26

Virgin yes, Hispania they're a joke, and they have Kolles, who is a bastard liar.

#12 froggy22

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 20:13

Virgin are marginally faster than Lotus (atm)and have the resources to improve. so yes. HRT are debatable

Edited by froggy22, 26 September 2010 - 20:14.


#13 stevvy1986

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 21:05

Virgin yes, Hispania, no. Virgin have certainly been fast on occasions (eg fastest of the new teams this weekend in quali I think). Hispania have been slow all season, even compared to the other new teams, let alone the top teams, and have rarely even looked like getting within a second of either Virgin or Lotus.

#14 ryan86

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 21:14

I'll give HRT this year as they came in last minute to take over a doomed operation, however next year there needs to be an appearance of them moving forward even if they are still 23rd and 24th most of the time.

In Scotland the football league is effectively a closed shop, you have to finish bottom 6 times before your status becomes provisional and earlier in the past decade East Stirling were pants, detailed in the book Pointless, but even though they still finished bottom they began to get more and more points until in the 7th season they finished 9th out of 10 and actually started climbing the table the next few seasons.

HRT I see as something similiar. If they begin to look like they can produce a racing car ran by a decent racing team continuosly improving yes, but if come 2013 they are still going, running with car that appears to be lacking 95% downforce, driven by whoever offers the most money for each race, then I think they should be asked to leave or at least think about selling the team to someone that can give it a better crack.

#15 eliteboy2780

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 21:16

i don't know if this is public knowledge or not, but Virgin's venture capitalists have pulled their money from the team which is around £15m. Virgin Racing are now in the process of trying to offload that equity to some Russians although I understand that this is a very long shot.

Quick or not, I don't know at this point if they will have the funds to continue into 2011. As BCE has said numerous times, Lotus are the only ones who bring some class of the new teams. Hence would he pour help into a billionaires team? No he wouldn't.


#16 Gene and Tonic

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 21:17

i don't know if this is public knowledge or not, but Virgin's venture capitalists have pulled their money from the team which is around £15m. Virgin Racing are now in the process of trying to offload that equity to some Russians although I understand that this is a very long shot.

Quick or not, I don't know at this point if they will have the funds to continue into 2011. As BCE has said numerous times, Lotus are the only ones who bring some class of the new teams. Hence would he pour help into a billionaires team? No he wouldn't.



Well that's sketchy information at best, where have you heard it?

#17 Fastcake

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 21:20

Well that's sketchy information at best, where have you heard it?

+++

I can't believe that in the slightest. Branson is in this for the long haul (on Fernades plane... ;) )

Edited by Fastcake, 26 September 2010 - 21:22.


#18 ensign14

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 21:25

Have you any idea how bad Minardi were in their first season? Pierluigi Martini was not even their first choice driver, Nannini didn't qualify for a licence. They scarcely finished a race, and when they did they were generally several laps down.

Even worse was Toleman. Their debut season saw both their cars with the monotonous abbreviation DNQ until right at the tail end of the season they got one start each. And the one finish they got was 3 laps back of 52 leader laps.

Minardi are now the race-winning Toro Rosso team. Toleman, well, they became world champions.

Once upon a time though you had to prove your chops in a free market. Now, with teams becoming FIA-protected franchises, it's a bit different. ART and Prodrive and Carlin and Euskadi can't build a car, lodge an entry deposit and have a go. The protectionists hold sway; if they want to enter they've got to provide Sir Frank or Peter with a pension the same way BAR and Mateschitz provided Uncle Ken and Giancarlo with one.

#19 Maestro

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 21:27

At this point they shouldn`t be on the grid because they are just there to be there. If they be faster next year than OK but this year they are disaster for F1. That`s my view.

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#20 hunnylander

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 21:32

Hispania is miserable. Rationally they should merge with Epsilon. EE has the facilities what Hispania lacks.

The whole Dallara customer car thing is a joke after the terminated contract (I know it wasn't their fault). They bought a car (which is not up to F1 standard engineering wise, only complies with the current regs), they aren't real manufacturers. And they rent their track day car to pay drivers.

#21 kNt

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 21:50

They are doing bad but not that bad compared to earlier tries by other teams. The FIA regulating entries is imo a flawed concept. They could have some way for teams to show they're capable like a preseason test or pre-qualy. But the current checking of bussiness plans etc. is a bit wierd.

#22 lambylamby

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 22:09

i think they should definitely be there. the regs changed, yet rather than putting the towel in they continued, virgin are allegedly under budget, and shaving time off, as for HRT it's messy an I worry that people would not be interested in investing in a team that could be no hopers. I however think we are spoiled with actually how good teams are nowadays, moaning a team in their first season are 2 laps down, when they are getting quicker, shaking off DNF's at a steady rate, I feel is not actually a problem of whether they should be in F1. My worry has always been too little teams, and I think 13 teams as a benchmark should be standard, if you ever watch WRC it's in a depressing state of domination of only 2 teams. would you like the same in F1? you could argue, FI/williams/torro rosso are down on timesheets, lets axe them too. no thanks, they have the potential to be world champion teams.

sure F1 is about the best, I'm not disputing that, but it should also be about the brave, the new, and fresh. Lotus and Virgin fit that bill, HRT don't quite, and are almost borderline Lola mastercard, but I won't kick them out, keep them in for a few seasons, let them fight, let them develop.

#23 johnap

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 22:27

The 107% will weed out the teams that haven't got their act together next year.

Lotus, with Renault engines might be able to challenge the midfielders next year providing that Mike Gasgoyne is given room to do what he wants.

Virgin should improve with Wirth Research, so long as the money keeps coming in.

HRT's only hope is merge with another team, Epsilon Euskadi makes sense, or they could cut their losses and sell the franchise...

#24 Doughnut King

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 22:34

After watching today's race I find myself starting to agree with Ferrari that the Virgin and Hispania team are way too slow to be in F1. Look at Senna's performance today and the way that both Webber and Hamilton both got into trouble behind a slow Virgin car. Whilst I feel sorry that the new teams just haven't had the time to develop their cars properly I do not feel they add much at all to F1 and probably never will. I can see Lotus coming good in the end and it may be useful if some of the bigger team's/ component suppliers help them catchup a bit quicker, but as for Hispania and Virgin. Well personally I think the bearded one should have his team dropped next year along with Hispania.


Lapping slower cars cleanly is a skill that every driver should have, particularly ones with race winning aspirations.

In terms of teams being on the grid my opinion is that if they can produce a car to the regulations and show financial evidence that they can compete all races in a season then they should be allowed to enter.

#25 chrisblades85

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 22:36

Yes of course they should. With the amount of time they were given, they have done an amazing job. And Virgin aren't far off Lotus anyway.. And Glock was doing an alright job in 11th earlier. And I like Virgin (Manor) as they are based down the road from me, Manor that is.

#26 Vids21

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 22:37

Virgin is a innovative team. With the all-computer designed car they offer something that might (probably not, since Virgin only does it because a windtunnel is expensive) become the future of F1.

HRT doesn't got F1 a thing to offer. The car is the same as it has been delivered by Dallara in the beginning of the season. They don't have the facilities to create a new car, and they dont hire drivers because of there talent but because of there bag of money. Sounds like Minardi, but at least Minardi was trying.

#27 pingu666

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 22:42

they arent too bad really, people have really high expectations, and the blue flag rules really dont help the new teams either, drop huge amounts of time letting people through

the established big teams have spent atleast 250+dollars a year for about 13 years, on average. 3.25 billion dollars total

so to be only a few % off on say about 70million dollars or less, isnt bad really, specialy including start up costs

#28 Gridfire

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 22:48

They are doing bad but not that bad compared to earlier tries by other teams. The FIA regulating entries is imo a flawed concept. They could have some way for teams to show they're capable like a preseason test or pre-qualy. But the current checking of bussiness plans etc. is a bit wierd.


So the teams should put together a factory and several hundred staff, get sponsors and backers, build a working car that is not too far off the midfield pace, get at least one driver and run a pre-season test for the FIA before they even know if they're allowed to race in that season?

Uh, no.

I know that the formula changes year on year, but it would make more sense to finalise teams two years in advance rather than waiting until half way through the season to announce the next years teams. New teams would have to leave final plans and prototypes until the rules are finalised for the season they are applying for, but they would have a lot of time to get their facility prepared and all the necessary staff prior to getting to work on the cars, and in that way they would have as much time as the established teams to build a car from scratch and wouldn't be so disadvantaged in their first season.

All three new teams now have a lot of data, have a fully working factory, have all the necessary staff, and have a queue of drivers looking for a seat. Next year I can't see any reason why they would be any worse than Toro Rosso this year. How poor the three teams are this year is entirely the fault of the people who approved their applications so late.

#29 Brandz07

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 22:50

Virgin, definately should be.

HRT, i feel sorry for them to be honest, but i don't think they should be.

#30 Marbles

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 22:54

Have you any idea how bad Minardi were in their first season? Pierluigi Martini was not even their first choice driver, Nannini didn't qualify for a licence. They scarcely finished a race, and when they did they were generally several laps down.

Even worse was Toleman. Their debut season saw both their cars with the monotonous abbreviation DNQ until right at the tail end of the season they got one start each. And the one finish they got was 3 laps back of 52 leader laps.

Minardi are now the race-winning Toro Rosso team. Toleman, well, they became world champions.

Once upon a time though you had to prove your chops in a free market. Now, with teams becoming FIA-protected franchises, it's a bit different. ART and Prodrive and Carlin and Euskadi can't build a car, lodge an entry deposit and have a go. The protectionists hold sway; if they want to enter they've got to provide Sir Frank or Peter with a pension the same way BAR and Mateschitz provided Uncle Ken and Giancarlo with one.


Well said, couldn't agree more. :up:

#31 Hole

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 22:58

Unless HRT gets united with Epsilon-Euskadi, I'd like the team stayed out of the sport. They are a joke, I don't like certain of their policies and I don't like how this team pretend to be representing Spain.

With Epsilon-Euskadi and the great Villadelprat, and his facilities (the could develop their own car) it would be a different matter and I would like them though.

#32 midgrid

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 23:00

Have you any idea how bad Minardi were in their first season? Pierluigi Martini was not even their first choice driver, Nannini didn't qualify for a licence. They scarcely finished a race, and when they did they were generally several laps down.

Even worse was Toleman. Their debut season saw both their cars with the monotonous abbreviation DNQ until right at the tail end of the season they got one start each. And the one finish they got was 3 laps back of 52 leader laps.

Minardi are now the race-winning Toro Rosso team. Toleman, well, they became world champions.

Once upon a time though you had to prove your chops in a free market. Now, with teams becoming FIA-protected franchises, it's a bit different. ART and Prodrive and Carlin and Euskadi can't build a car, lodge an entry deposit and have a go. The protectionists hold sway; if they want to enter they've got to provide Sir Frank or Peter with a pension the same way BAR and Mateschitz provided Uncle Ken and Giancarlo with one.


I agree with this.

In addition, I wonder how many complaints about the new teams being "unsuitable for F1" come from people who have only been watching the sport for a couple of years. From 2007-2009, we had a period when the field was closer than at any other time during the sport's history (excluding Super Aguri's farewell races in 2008). For the vast majority of F1 history, the slowest cars have been several seconds a lap slower than the fastest, and that's not a bad thing: it implies that privateer teams are taking part and the sport isn't solely reliant upon manufacturers, it allows young drivers (and other team members) to learn their trade out of the media glare that it applied to bigger teams (just compare how much criticism Petrov has attracted this year compared to rookies in smaller teams), and it makes sure that the leading drivers have to learn to deal with slower traffic as part of their racecraft. There are even people who support backmarking teams because they love the underdog - just check out a site like F1 Rejects for an example.

Edited by midgrid, 26 September 2010 - 23:01.


#33 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 23:02

Virgin do a pretty good job imho....not only related to glock, but that car has never seen a wind tunnel and it's still pretty fast...
they were fragile early on but they fixed it...
hrt..well...mostly it's driver related.....honestly, bruno is lost...chandhok and yamamoto can match him...klien destroyed him.....
if they had a "glock"...they could look a little better

honestly, they all (lotus, virgin, hrt) did a pretty good job this year. If they can make the business work, they surely deserve to be here.

#34 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 23:02

I see no reason why Virgin and Hispania should not be in the sport. Ferrari might not like it much, but Keke Rosberg put it best when there was talk of splitting the Monaco ualifying session: thirty years ago, there were more than a few cars who were slow and everyone managed just fine then.

I'm expecting Virgin, at least, to be quicker in 2011. They have a good platform for it. As for Hispania ... well, we need a team whose races go disastrously wrong whenever the races are processional. It adds a bit of comic relief.

#35 Wingcommander

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Posted 26 September 2010 - 23:41

As someone wisely mentioned, that part of the "new teams being so slow" is that FIA confirmed this season teams so late. They only had few months to get the staff and create an F1 car from a scratch. The established team have years of experience and data to rely on. Not to mention the budgets of the bigger teams. And as the new teams weren't allowed any testing before february, they we're pretty much guessing what would work and what not. Also the fact that the cars are homologated before the season for crash testings, means that the monoque itself was basically designed last year. They can upgrade the wings, engine cover etc. but the monoque is what it is. I'm quite sure with the data and knowledge the teams have now, we would be seeing quite different looking cars.

Mike Gascoyne said, that they had to make a simple car because they just didn't have the time. And now they are stuck with it, because there's only so much you can do during the season. The next years car will be more like what the team can really do. Pretty much the same story for Virgin, I guess. As they weren't allowed (and wouldn't have had the time either) to test, they basically had no idea how the car would actually work. In the past new teams haven't had this problem (providing they've had the money to test). Hopefully next season cars perform much better and make them proper contenders close to the midfield.

As for HRT they just seem to lack everything. As Campos couldn't pay his bills, Dallara stopped working on the car. When Carabante came along, there was only a couple weeks before Bahrain. They put together a car which matched the regulations and went for it. This was the reason why they were so slow. Then they started blaming Dallara in public about how slow the car is. Instead of letting Dallara develop the car properly, they cut ties with them and are now on their own. No factory, and apparently no money either. It's sad, but I really can't see this team going on much longer. Let's hope they can come up with something.

I guess we have been spoiled with the tight grid we've hade for a few years now. In the 90's it was nothing special for a smaller team to be 5s off the pace. I'm just glad that we have 24 cars in the grid. 20 was just miserable.

Edited by Wingcommander, 26 September 2010 - 23:43.


#36 Laffite

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 01:00

I'm looking forward for the 2011 lotus and Virgin contenders

And expecting nothing from HRT.

#37 Atreiu

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 01:51

I don't see how you can lump Virgin in with Hispania.

Wirth Research have made some pretty significant contributions to motorsport with their development contributing to successful Le Mans prototypes.

At this race Glock was probably the fastest of the new teams. He was only a couple of seconds a lap off the midfield pace.


:up:

#38 Eff One 2002

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 01:59

Yes, these smaller teams deserve their place on the grid. People forget that prior to F1 becoming ridiculously expensive to compete in to the point that no new teams could enter the sport other than manufacturers, back right up untill the mid 90's there were always smaller teams that were even further off the pace relative to the leaders than HRT and Virgin are. Dealing with lapping backmarkers is part and parcel of the challenge of F1.

#39 Archybald

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 02:03

I personally think they should just impliment the 107% rule then open the doors let as many teams in that want to compete with a finite amount of cars aloud per track.

But thats just me and yes i do think virgin and hispania should be there

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#40 MaxisOne

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 02:11

Virgin yes. They are improving. They are not bottom of the table, and the cars are far more reliable than they were earlier in the season. Di Grassi is higher than the more experienced Trulli in the championship.

HRT is a different matter, if they make it to next season, hopefully the car should be better but if not, then I'd say no.


:kiss:

Mandzipop always The voice of reason .. (with the exception of when Ferrari wins races ... ) Oh well no ones perfect ! close though ! :lol:

Virgin was pretty strong for a new team in Singapore and while they were the laughingstock of the earlier rounds (Flexy, Faily wings during testing, Fuzzy math fuel tank numbers :rotfl: ) they have seemed to stabilize. They can only get better from this point.

On the other hand .. Wow HRT.. Drama prone team with still no stability anywhere in sight.. If something isnt failing something is wrong.
HRT needs to merge or get some serious technical support from another team a la Maclaren & Force India if they want to be seen as deserving their slot. Rumors are calling for a Toyota link up .. we will see.

Edited by MaxisOne, 27 September 2010 - 02:18.


#41 Kucki

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 02:18

Even though I don't like this Team, HRT aswell as all the newcomer teams have every right to be there and add alot to me as a viewer to Formula 1. There used to be a time where beeing 5s behind the leaders in F1 was nothing out of the ordinary, and when the race at the front and mid-field have become stale and positions not changing, its always good that you still have the backmarker teams to look out for. Its a good training ground for new drivers and a 26 car field should be standard in F1. Having only 20 cars like we used to have is just lame. The more cars the more things happen. 13 Teams 26 cars would be great.

Edited by Kucki, 27 September 2010 - 02:18.


#42 Tufty

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 05:57

Even though I don't like this Team, HRT aswell as all the newcomer teams have every right to be there and add alot to me as a viewer to Formula 1. There used to be a time where beeing 5s behind the leaders in F1 was nothing out of the ordinary, and when the race at the front and mid-field have become stale and positions not changing, its always good that you still have the backmarker teams to look out for. Its a good training ground for new drivers and a 26 car field should be standard in F1. Having only 20 cars like we used to have is just lame. The more cars the more things happen. 13 Teams 26 cars would be great.

Totally agree, except that in a perfect world I would like an end to the restrictive franchise system, let anyone with a PAIR of cars sign up to the season - come to the races they want, with a set number/particular venues mandatory, and let the fastest X cars race. It's how F1 started, and it gives an interesting battle at the back of the pack.

Sadly, sponsors wouldn't like the idea of their car not being guaranteed a grid slot - even though thats exactly what the 107% rule threatens :confused:

#43 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 06:16

Sadly, sponsors wouldn't like the idea of their car not being guaranteed a grid slot - even though thats exactly what the 107% rule threatens :confused:

Everyone is probably expecting the new teams to be well within the 107% time next year, even if they aren't this season. It seems to have been re-introduced to appease the nay-sayers more than anything else; I expect the likes of Virgin and Lotus will be much closer to - if not directly competing with - the rest of the field next year.

#44 Tufty

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 06:50

Everyone is probably expecting the new teams to be well within the 107% time next year, even if they aren't this season. It seems to have been re-introduced to appease the nay-sayers more than anything else; I expect the likes of Virgin and Lotus will be much closer to - if not directly competing with - the rest of the field next year.

I hope you're right, but with a few changeovers in the pipeline regarding managements, that could yet prove wrong

#45 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 07:12

I hope you're right, but with a few changeovers in the pipeline regarding managements, that could yet prove wrong

Nobody reasonably expected the new teams to be competitive, but I think everyone was taken aback at just how far behind they were. But they've managed to make up three seconds over the course of the season, and now that they've done the hardest part - establishing themselves - everything will hopefully fall in line.

#46 One

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 07:45

Well yes for both of them Formual One needs team like HRT to give space for younger dogs. Unless otherwise we will see all drivers stagnating.

Looking back Minaldi played one Crucial role in this year's championship.

#47 Tufty

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 08:21

Well yes for both of them Formual One needs team like HRT to give space for younger dogs. Unless otherwise we will see all drivers stagnating.

Looking back Minaldi played one Crucial role in this year's championship.

Brought 2 in directly [Webbo and Alonso] AND their buyers brought in Sebastian Vettel - A fairly substantial role I guess

So yes, I agree with your reasoning for F1 needing such teams.

#48 Gene and Tonic

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 08:26

You can also have smaller teams pioneering technologies. Tyrrell with their raised nose...Virgin with their all-CFD approach that could revolutionise how teams go racing.

#49 Clatter

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 08:27

I think that under the circumstances the new teams have been pretty good, and much better than teams that used to enter years ago. They didn't know if they had a slot until quite late into the season last year and had to build themselves up from scratch. Hopefully they will continue to find funding for the coming seasons and have given themselves a solid base upon which to build. The fact that the bigger boys sometimes have to negotiate their way past them at awkward places is just part of the game.

#50 F.M.

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 08:37

Well, as HRT hasn't brought a single update to their car this year, their 2011 car should be a rocket, having a full year headstart in developing it :rotfl: