62 replies to this topic

[Brandz07]

Would you feel cheated if Alonso won the title this year after the Germany incident, i know it's in the past and a ruling has been made, but in my opinion it's a joke and i would feel cheated and completely angry if Alonso won the championship by the points he was gifted.

I'm not saying he doesn't deserve it either.

Edited by Brandz07, 26 September 2010 - 22:31.

[longhornx]

[RuB]

are u serious?

After all the examples of team order this year and recent ones... u still think ferrari cheated?? Kimmi won 2007 WDC thanks to Massa and obvious team orders in the last race and nobody complained...

[UPRC]

Cheated? Not at all. I don't even understand how one could feel cheated.

[MikeTekRacing]

vettel should have given mark today the 2nd place...
if it were alonso and massa, or vettel leading the wdc race it would have happened

[Mandzipop]

If that is the only time it happens then no. It has happened multiple times in the last few years. It may get to a point when other teams have to do it. Ferrari just opted to do it earlier, and it might be the only time it happens this year. Hypothetical situation. We get to Abu Dhabi, Button gets pole. Hamilton needs to get 8 points and he will win the WDC. Button is out of it if he finishes 2nd. However he is mathmatically still in it as he is only 24 points behind, so unless Vettel, Webber, Alonso, and Hamilton DNF and he wins, he has no chance. I reckon the call would be given. If come Abu Dhabi and he is mathmatically out of the championship, then he would concede to Lewis if needed.

Ferrari just chose to do it earlier.

[Nitropower]

Who would start a thread like this?

Not a fan. Nuff said.

[Massa_f1]

its getting more and more likley he will win it i am sad to say. I agree with an earlyer post Vettel should of moved over today. If it carrys on like this its easy Alonsos title.

[scheivlak]

Who would start a thread like this?

Not a fan. Nuff said.

Well, that means that only Alonso fans wouldn't start a thread like this - OK.

[Brandz07]

Cheated? Not at all. I don't even understand how one could feel cheated.

i used the wrong word i think, not cheated, but just generally feel annoyed about why he'd won it :/

this isn't a rant or anything, i just want to know how everyone feels about the team orders affecting the championship

[midgrid]

its getting more and more likley he will win it i am sad to say. I agree with an earlyer post Vettel should of moved over today. If it carrys on like this its easy Alonsos title.

...Except that Vettel still has a very real chance of winning the championship himself, something Massa has not looked capable of this season (despite leading it at one stage).

[scheivlak]

I agree with an earlyer post Vettel should of moved over today.

I'm pretty sure that Red Bull would have to face the FIA court in Paris as well then, not so much on 39.1 but on 151c and rightly so - and they would not have been treated as lightly as Ferrari.

You can't say that Mark was faster......

[MikeTekRacing]

...Except that Vettel still has a very real chance of winning the championship himself, something Massa has not looked capable of this season (despite leading it at one stage).

vettel was favoured inside RBR even in silverstone when both were having the same chance to win the title
in turkey they even brought up this
now in singapore it wasn't the case

[Captain Tightpants]

It would only be acceptable if he wins by seven or more points. That way, Germany didn't play a part in his championship because you could reasonably reverse the pass he made without affecting the standings.

[MikeTekRacing]

You can't say that Mark was faster......

yeah, but poor vettel had brake problems from early on and they were really really scared the brakes would fail (they have a history at this)

they instruct him to be careful and that means he just loses to mark

fia cannot do anything about it after closing an eye on ferrari

you can now issue as a direct order as you want, they won't move an inch on it

[Nitropower]

Well, that means that only Alonso fans wouldn't start a thread like this - OK.

Exactly, it's a stupid thread that makes zero sense. Are we gonna start another one to question if McLaren saving fuel orders or RedBull 10 second engine failures etc. woould make them filthy tainted champions? It's just a thread for bashers. Enjoy it.

[stevvy1986]

yeah, but poor vettel had brake problems from early on and they were really really scared the brakes would fail (they have a history at this)

they instruct him to be careful and that means he just loses to mark

They didn't sound really really scared as you put it. Also instructing Vettel to be careful means he just loses to Mark and presumably should've let him past (if I understand you correctly)? Daft really, Webber was never close enough to Vettel to even stand a chance, and had Vettel let Webber past after the 2nd SC (given that by the end of the 1st non SC lap after the 2nd SC, Webber was about 4 seconds behind Vettel I think), then Vettel would've lost a load of time, would've risked Button passing him as Webber would've been holding him up, and Alonso would've likely absolutely cruised to victory.

Edited by stevvy1986, 26 September 2010 - 23:16.

[scheivlak]

you can now issue as a direct order as you want, they won't move an inch on it

No you can't. For a start, the steward's decision at Hockenheim was confirmed by the WMSC, so the rule isn't abolished. They stated that "The judging body has also acknowledged that article 39.1 of the sporting regulations should be reviewed and has decided to refer this question to the Formula 1 Sporting Working Group." which is still quite something else than giving everybody the nod to go for blatant team tactics.

More important is that rule 151c can always be used to punish what can be seen as contriving a result. And with Webber being so far off Vettel's pace, it's quite possible that the FIA would be using that article to show that they can't be played with.
Apart from that, Vettel is still a pretty serious contender in his own right who has his WDC chances in his own hands.

Edited by scheivlak, 26 September 2010 - 23:22.

[DILLIGAF]

No

[MikeTekRacing]

They didn't sound really really scared as you put it. Also instructing Vettel to be careful means he just loses to Mark and presumably should've let him past (if I understand you correctly)? Daft really, Webber was never close enough to Vettel to even stand a chance, and had Vettel let Webber past after the 2nd SC (given that by the end of the 1st non SC lap after the 2nd SC, Webber was about 4 seconds behind Vettel I think), then Vettel would've lost a load of time, would've risked Button passing him as Webber would've been holding him up, and Alonso would've likely absolutely cruised to victory.

there is no such thing saying that being close enough is ok for a team order.
also, a faster driver can defend button better than a struggling one ;)

it's just a lot of hypocrisy. what ferrari did in germany was equally bad.
rbr did not do it because it was webber. had the roles been switched the order would have come

anybody doubts that?

[scheivlak]

anybody doubts that?

Yes, I am.

[Massacrator]

its getting more and more likley he will win it i am sad to say. I agree with an earlyer post Vettel should of moved over today. If it carrys on like this its easy Alonsos title.

Alonso was faster than Massa, that's why they let him thru.

That wasn't the case today. If Vettel had to let Webber thru, he would have had to stop the car and wait half a minute for Webber to reach him...

[skinnyman]

Alonso was faster than Massa, that's why they let him thru.

That wasn't the case today. If Vettel had to let Webber thru, he would have had to stop the car and wait half a minute for Webber to reach him...

Fisi - Alonso China 2006

[chrisj]

Yeah, I would feel cheated.

[goldenboy]

not really.

the thing I didn't like about it was it sucked seeing massa have to hand over a win, as it would have been quite a poetic one. but you have to say massa really hasn't done anything to prove it was a bad call, quite the opposite.

[Xpat]

It's a shame when a driver capable of winning in a car capable of winning has to have his team mate pull over to let him win.

[Ferrari2183]

NO.

[fabr68]

It's a shame when a driver capable of winning in a car capable of winning has to have his team mate pull over to let him win.

The 2008 German GP was long ago. Let it go already.

[Xpat]

The 2008 German GP was long ago. Let it go already.

It was a shame then, and it is a shame now. It is lame whenever it happens.

In 2002, when Schumacher won 11 races was it really necessary for Barrichello to let him win in Austria?

[topical]

what a waste of a thread. your profile pic explains it all. Webber needs to concentrate on not crashing in to people and not driving 1,5 seconds a lap slower than his teammate and he is perfectly capable of winning this title on his own, without people needing to bring up Hockenheim.

[apoka]

If team orders were allowed, Red Bull / Vettel would be in a much better situation today (+25 or more points), because the Turkey crash wouldn't have happened. So Ferrari gained an advantage over Red Bull by executing team orders.

[Chezrome]

Well, since Hockenheim clearly Alonso is the best allround driver in the best allround car. There have been so many incidents this year, other competitors have also picked up some 'undeserved' points. My take is: there is never a 'wrong' worldchampion. For example: I don't understand that some people think that in 2007 Raikkonen somehow 'lucked' into the WC. If you look at the last half of that year Raikkonen was by far the best driver. Alonso and Ferarri seem (seem!) going to have a second half of 2010 like that...

[Massacrator]

If team orders were allowed, Red Bull / Vettel would be in a much better situation today (+25 or more points), because the Turkey crash wouldn't have happened. So Ferrari gained an advantage over Red Bull by executing team orders.

McLaren and RBR executed team orders too. You just didn't notice them

[undersquare]

I'd have felt better about Hock if Alonso hadn't been asking for Massa to be ordered out of the way. I felt that was a bit weak and unsporting, and I didn't like the way the drivers' deal to let the faster car through was twisted - I'm sure Felipe did not think it was meant for that situation where there were no cars in front.

But Fernando can redeem himself if he keeps driving like the last two weekends, you couldn't argue if he wins the title like that. But if he does, he could have done it without the team order and that would have been a bit classier.

[Massacrator]

I'd have felt better about Hock if Alonso hadn't been asking for Massa to be ordered out of the way. I felt that was a bit weak and unsporting, and I didn't like the way the drivers' deal to let the faster car through was twisted - I'm sure Felipe did not think it was meant for that situation where there were no cars in front.

But Fernando can redeem himself if he keeps driving like the last two weekends, you couldn't argue if he wins the title like that. But if he does, he could have done it without the team order and that would have been a bit classier.

Fernando said many times this isn't a sport but just a show with cars and rules.

[F.M.]

Depends on the difference in points...

[flyer121]

Would you feel cheated if Alonso won the title this year after the Germany incident, i know it's in the past and a ruling has been made, but in my opinion it's a joke and i would feel cheated and completely angry if Alonso won the championship by the points he was gifted.

I'm not saying he doesn't deserve it either.

Not really..

I hated Alonso for the prima donna act at McLaren vs Lewis .
I hated him when he stepped in the Ferrari ( basically giving Kimi the boot)

But I have to admit that he would ve pulled the greatest comeback if he wins this year - perhaps even greater than Kimi 07

[harrows]

He's won it twice using the same rubbish, so...

[Massacrator]

He's won it twice using the same rubbish, so...

And will get a 3rd hopefully.

They give you points for finishing the race in higher positions, not for doing kamikaze stunts

Edited by Massacrator, 27 September 2010 - 09:45.

[Fontainebleau]

Fisi - Alonso China 2006

Fisi finished third at more than 40 seconds from Alonso (2nd). Yes, he did let Alonso pass without a fight, but he did not have to slow down and wait for him as Alonso was clearly faster and setting one FL after another, finishing 3 secs behind Schumacher.

Edited by Fontainebleau, 27 September 2010 - 10:03.

[undersquare]

Fernando said many times this isn't a sport but just a show with cars and rules.

That would not earn any respect from me, I'm afraid.

But I don't believe it actually.

[JPW]

It would be lovely to see him winning the championship and preferably with 6 points or less difference. It would be one of the greatest comebacks ever and endear him forever to the tifosi.

[MikeTekRacing]

In 2002, when Schumacher won 11 races was it really necessary for Barrichello to let him win in Austria?

michael gave him indy, how come that is forgotten?

[RC127]

It would only be acceptable if he wins by seven or more points. That way, Germany didn't play a part in his championship because you could reasonably reverse the pass he made without affecting the standings.

Apologies if anyone has come to a similar conclusion elsewhere, but something has just dawned on me.

I wonder if Bernie's fascination with the medal system deciding the championship is a very roundabout way to eliminate team orders of the magnitude witnessed in Hockenheim?

I am not really keen on the idea of a medals based championship, but I have to say I think this would be a major benefit (perhaps). Or would it not change anything in the team principals' eyes?

[Xpat]

michael gave him indy, how come that is forgotten?

No one forgot it, specially the people that were in the stands to watch the farce. Lots of booing.

I used to compete in all sort of athletics and when I competed I wanted to win. I would have been humiliated, and never would have knowingly accepted a "win" if my opponent had let me "win".

I long for the day when we hear radio communication between the team and the driver,

Team: Do you understand, Driver B is faster than you.
Driver A: No he isn't, I am ahead of him.
Team: B is faster than you. Do you understand.
Diver: I am not pulling over so B can pass me. Do YOU understand?
Driver B : Stop telling A to let me by. I am a man and I have my pride.

[Classic Ferrari]

Would you feel cheated if Alonso won the title this year after the Germany incident, i know it's in the past and a ruling has been made, but in my opinion it's a joke and i would feel cheated and completely angry if Alonso won the championship by the points he was gifted.

I'm not saying he doesn't deserve it either.

No, because I didn't feel cheated when McLaren moved Heikki out of the way in the same race during 2008.

[Shevek]

Fernando said many times this isn't a sport but just a show with cars and rules.

When did Alosnso say that? (and I'm a Spaniard and I have heard a lot of interviews to Alonso).

Was it when he said that Valencia was a manipulated race?

[ViMaMo]

Im sure you would feel cheated

[AlanWake]

When did Alosnso say that? (and I'm a Spaniard and I have heard a lot of interviews to Alonso).

Was it when he said that Valencia was a manipulated race?

Monza 2006

[Nivra]

Would you feel cheated if Alonso won the title this year after the Germany incident, i know it's in the past and a ruling has been made, but in my opinion it's a joke and i would feel cheated and completely angry if Alonso won the championship by the points he was gifted.

I'm not saying he doesn't deserve it either.

No, I wouldn't feel cheated at all!

As a neutral observer (Mclaren/Kimi), Germany was baffling!... but not because of Alonso, but because of that idiot Massa himself...he simply chickened out of the contest. Not Alonso's fault at all, if someone forgets to get their balls to the race.

He could have been a man, a la Webber, but he chose to be No.2... that too when the situation was in his hands.
Why should I, or anyone feel that way because of Massa's own actions.

Massa has given me no reason to feel bad for him... infact what he did was pathetic. I mean, c'mon... he could have continued and won the race. He chose his own destiny... & now (after Singapore), he can forget about beating Alonso to the wdc, ever!

Massa's own actions/decision were pathetic for fans and viewers... so Good on him. He deserves it too

P.S.- I expect a racing driver out there to win & focus 100% on the race.... instead, Massa started calculating/focusing on his "Contract Situation" once the call came in... & thats even more sad/worse!!

Edited by Nivra, 27 September 2010 - 14:46.