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#1 k21john

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 20:48

Hi Folks

Sorry to have been away for awhile but work etc!

Anyway a quick question....

When were tyre warmers first used in bike racing and by whom?????

Reason for the question is that there is quite a debate going on with the CRMC and it would be nice to quote some facts.....

Cheers and I look forward to your response

John

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#2 Paul Collins

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 21:20

Only guessing which isnt a lot of use to you but I think the F1 car boys had them first from the mid 80's and I would guess they arrived in bike gp's around 87/88 on the factory bikes.

Hopefully someone will have a more definitive answer because i'm curious now!!

#3 PhilG

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 22:21

Are they allowed in CMRC?? We use them for supermoto, its a cheap way to avoid crashing on cold tyres. I know back in the day it was part of the skill, but less race stoppages and less crashes make it a no brainer for me.

#4 GD66

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 08:23

Not really supposed to use them in Australasian classic racing either John, but they've crept in over the last few years. Arguments against their use include pushing the cost up by $500 per competitor, and resulting perceived disadvantage to lesser-funded riders.
Those proclaiming their use point to the adoption of slick tyres in period 5 (1973 to '82) which require their use, and the value of tyre cycles : ie, take out a bike on cold tyres, run it around, bring it back, park it and let it cool, that's one heat cycle of the tyres. Tyres only last and function well for a limited number of heat cycles. Put tyre warmers on, heat up the tyres, go for a gallop, bring the bike back and re-fit the tyre warmers, and the whole race day sees only one heat cycle for the set of tyres. So it's claimed their use is vital on grounds of both safety (no race laps on cold tyres) and economy (only one heat cycle per race day). To be honest, the economy argument falls a little flat when leading teams fit new tyres each time out.
But by and large, they've quietly crept into use here, and nobody in particular seems miffed about it. I don't use them, but then I don't race at the cutting edge. Many riders feel safer going hard on lap 1 with them, so good on them. I think you'll probably find plenty of proponents for their use among the CRMC members, might as well cop it sweet and allow them in.... ;)

#5 k21john

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 18:51

Not really supposed to use them in Australasian classic racing either John, but they've crept in over the last few years. Arguments against their use include pushing the cost up by $500 per competitor, and resulting perceived disadvantage to lesser-funded riders.
Those proclaiming their use point to the adoption of slick tyres in period 5 (1973 to '82) which require their use, and the value of tyre cycles : ie, take out a bike on cold tyres, run it around, bring it back, park it and let it cool, that's one heat cycle of the tyres. Tyres only last and function well for a limited number of heat cycles. Put tyre warmers on, heat up the tyres, go for a gallop, bring the bike back and re-fit the tyre warmers, and the whole race day sees only one heat cycle for the set of tyres. So it's claimed their use is vital on grounds of both safety (no race laps on cold tyres) and economy (only one heat cycle per race day). To be honest, the economy argument falls a little flat when leading teams fit new tyres each time out.
But by and large, they've quietly crept into use here, and nobody in particular seems miffed about it. I don't use them, but then I don't race at the cutting edge. Many riders feel safer going hard on lap 1 with them, so good on them. I think you'll probably find plenty of proponents for their use among the CRMC members, might as well cop it sweet and allow them in....;)


Interesting to see that the've been allowed in down under, They are not allowed under current CRMC regs and one of the problems that I forsee is that ocassionally (Most Meetings) we do see a serious accident on track which produces the inevitable Red Flag.... The bikes waiting to form up on the grid for the next race are already in the assembly area and could be held for 15+ minutes, I reckon that the tyres would have cooled somewhat by then.....

How do you over come this in Oz...

Cheers

John

#6 GD66

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 21:29

Normally the bikes for the following event are given a two-minute warning from the clerk of course by siren or PA notice, that pit road will be opening for their race, subject to the track being clear. Most riders then assemble on the dummy grid. Another signal is given for the opening of pit road, then riders have 30 seconds from the last bike out to make the field, those who are outside the 30 seconds start from pit road by flag after the field has passed.
Grid positions are pre-determined, and then onus is on the competitor to take note that the event preceding their own is nearing completion, and to get set to make their way to the dummy grid. Believe me, once they've missed the closing of pit road and had to start from pit road by flag, they're never late again !
While any form of speeding in the pits is discouraged (walking and pushing your bike compulsory at Mallala) it doesn't take long for riders to get with the programme and to be prepared and on time to make the field for their race.
I sympathise with your problem, but I don't see the need to keep bikes/riders in an assembly area for extended periods before their race if they can be organised enough to be ready to roll out for their next event. And circuits like Phillip Island and Eastern Creek have vast pit areas, so that's not a factor, either. It's really up to the riders to help keep things rolling along....missing the start of a race heightens their enthusiasm noticeably !

Edit : John, I've had a flick through the CRMC results on your club website, and noticed that Lea Gourlay, Richard Parker, Gordon Russell and Steve Dobbie are included : they've all raced at Phillip Island under these very circumstances, so why not get their input re the two-minute callup ?

Also, food for thought : were any of those serious accidents you mentioned caused by cold tyres ? As I said, I don't use warmers myself, but I think they're definitely on the agenda for most....
Regards GD :wave:

Edited by GD66, 29 September 2010 - 08:34.


#7 k21john

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 09:50

Normally the bikes for the following event are given a two-minute warning from the clerk of course by siren or PA notice, that pit road will be opening for their race, subject to the track being clear. Most riders then assemble on the dummy grid. Another signal is given for the opening of pit road, then riders have 30 seconds from the last bike out to make the field, those who are outside the 30 seconds start from pit road by flag after the field has passed.
Grid positions are pre-determined, and then onus is on the competitor to take note that the event preceding their own is nearing completion, and to get set to make their way to the dummy grid. Believe me, once they've missed the closing of pit road and had to start from pit road by flag, they're never late again !
While any form of speeding in the pits is discouraged (walking and pushing your bike compulsory at Mallala) it doesn't take long for riders to get with the programme and to be prepared and on time to make the field for their race.
I sympathise with your problem, but I don't see the need to keep bikes/riders in an assembly area for extended periods before their race if they can be organised enough to be ready to roll out for their next event. And circuits like Phillip Island and Eastern Creek have vast pit areas, so that's not a factor, either. It's really up to the riders to help keep things rolling along....missing the start of a race heightens their enthusiasm noticeably !

Edit : John, I've had a flick through the CRMC results on your club website, and noticed that Lea Gourlay, Richard Parker, Gordon Russell and Steve Dobbie are included : they've all raced at Phillip Island under these very circumstances, so why not get their input re the two-minute callup ?

Also, food for thought : were any of those serious accidents you mentioned caused by cold tyres ? As I said, I don't use warmers myself, but I think they're definitely on the agenda for most....
Regards GD :wave:


Hi Glenn

We have had a number of accidents this year some quite serious and with some of our riders having major ones at other events, A quick update on a few....

Lea Gourley had a nasty one during practice for the Ulster GP, 160mph+, still in hospital but making progress,
Olie Linsdell had a huge one at the Manx GP, 160mph+ and the same as Lea he's still in Hospital but again recovering slowly,
Rob Hall had a huge high side at Pembrey, he's at home but still not fully recovered, his accident was in cold conditions so maybe tyre warmers may have prevented,
Steve Walls, lost the front at The Silverstone Classic Car event where we were doing some lunchtime parades. This was on about lap 3, not going fast but fast enough to warm tyres, unfortunatly he collected another bike and is home but recovering slowly.
At Snetterton, Ricky McMillan had a chain snap on the start line and collected 2 bikes, Paul Coote and Janet Procter, Ricky came off the worst with a broken leg, pleased to say that all are home and recovering well...

The list goes on and are they down to cold tyres, well I guess the answer is some could be, we are just about to head of to Cadwell on the 9th / 10th October and already the weather has started to feel Autumnal and Cadwell is in a park setting, a beautiful track but a section from Halls bends through to the start / finish which is under trees so even if we have some sunshine it's usually a cold and potentially slippy part of the circuit.

We run a Rob North 930 Triple and if it's at all damp we run with Avon's front and rear, during nice weather though we will fit a Dunlop to the rear... We find that during cold weather we can run six laps and still have cold tyres, dropping the preasurs does help get some heat into them but I have seen Chris come in and the tyres don't seem to have even worn when it's really cold, compare this with a nice sunny day in the summer and you will burn your hand on the tyre after six laps...

Last year at Cadwell we had many stopages, a couple for weather but we did have a lot of fallers, this resulted in some races being reduced to 3 lappers which in itself produced evebn more fallers...

So from a safety point of view tyre warmers look to be an answer, as to whether the CRMC will adopt this only time will tell.

Cheers

John

P.S. It goes without say that we all wish our riders a very speedy recovery, get well soon guys.....

#8 Rob H

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 13:43

Rob Hall had a huge high side at Pembrey, he's at home but still not fully recovered, his accident was in cold conditions so maybe tyre warmers may have prevented


Hi John, you can blame an over enthuseastic right wrist for my high side if you wish, but seeing as it was first lap , second corner , a cold easter weekend meeting I am pretty sure the tyres after 1 warm up lap were nowhere near their optimal working temperature, and would not grip particularely well as a result. Now if I am lucky John and do make a good recovery I will hopefully get to race again. I can certainly say I would feel much happier using tyre warmers, and I think the time saved by having less early/first lap crashes would more than compensate for the effort required by the club to change the way we assemble the races in order to accomodate the use of tyre warmers. The fact is John had things not gone so well for me in the first 24 hrs following my accident I probably wouldn,t be typing this, I would just be a damn statistic now. To me I feel the club should do what ever is necessary to accomadate their use. Rider safety should be paramount. It is easy to be blas,e about things like tyre warmers until something serious happens to you , certainly makes you consider your opinions a bit more afterwards.

#9 fil2.8

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 16:30

Hi John, you can blame an over enthuseastic right wrist for my high side if you wish, but seeing as it was first lap , second corner , a cold easter weekend meeting I am pretty sure the tyres after 1 warm up lap were nowhere near their optimal working temperature, and would not grip particularely well as a result. Now if I am lucky John and do make a good recovery I will hopefully get to race again. I can certainly say I would feel much happier using tyre warmers, and I think the time saved by having less early/first lap crashes would more than compensate for the effort required by the club to change the way we assemble the races in order to accomodate the use of tyre warmers. The fact is John had things not gone so well for me in the first 24 hrs following my accident I probably wouldn,t be typing this, I would just be a damn statistic now. To me I feel the club should do what ever is necessary to accomadate their use. Rider safety should be paramount. It is easy to be blas,e about things like tyre warmers until something serious happens to you , certainly makes you consider your opinions a bit more afterwards.




Well said , Rob :up:


#10 Coupe Kawasaki

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 16:31

Glad you are doing OK Rob :wave: I don't know what argument there is for not using them...anything that riders think will make it less of a lottery on the first couple of laps gets my vote :up:


Daisy

#11 PhilG

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 16:53

Glad you are doing OK Rob :wave: I don't know what argument there is for not using them...anything that riders think will make it less of a lottery on the first couple of laps gets my vote :up:


Daisy


Tyre warmers are £250 tops, what does one crash cost?? I had one cold tyre off, due to a defective warmer , just lets go, no warning. We are all getting older, in the big scheme of racing expenses, a genny and a set of warmers aint an issue.

If you allow them in the holding area too, if you do have a delay, it doesnt matter... you are more likely to have an off after a delay than not.

I know it not in the classic spirit, but neither are air fences , and we dont take those away.


#12 picblanc

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 19:11

Good point, neither are back protecters etc or shark fin chain guards, tyre warmers a good idea. :up:

#13 exclubracer

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 09:58

Agree 100% with all the above comments, there is no valid argument against tyre warmers IMHO, rider safety should be paramount, there should be no other consideration.

If the CRMC allow eligibility for some of the 'silhouette' classics of today then how can they say that tyre warmers are 'out of period?

Best wishes for a speedy recovery to all who were injured.

Edited by exclubracer, 30 September 2010 - 11:28.


#14 Russell Burrows

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 17:11

If I say that things would be safer still if traction control was used, will everyone go ballistic?

#15 exclubracer

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 18:14

If I say that things would be safer still if traction control was used, will everyone go ballistic?


Hi Russ :wave:
Modern race rubber, even the treaded Avons/Dunlops etc. are grip-wise on a par with tyres used by the privateer GP boys of not many years ago IMHO, they need bags of heat input for the compounds to work as intended otherwise it's highside time.
No traction control on the front wheel either Russ  ;)


#16 Russell Burrows

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 18:55

Hi Russ :wave:
Modern race rubber, even the treaded Avons/Dunlops etc. are grip-wise on a par with tyres used by the privateer GP boys of not many years ago IMHO, they need bags of heat input for the compounds to work as intended otherwise it's highside time.
No traction control on the front wheel either Russ ;)


Hi Mick. If they're designed like that then they should use warmers, or allow them a lap or two to bring up the temperature. I know classic racing has morphed into something else, but I can't help thinking how good it would be to see Manxes , G50's and the like running on skinny 19 inch triangulars.


#17 k21john

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 22:23

A question for Glenn....

Do you have many first lap incidents down under????

If so then would tyre warmers make that much of a difference, one thing they will do is probably boost rider confidence and as Rob has mentioned some have a tendancy to be heavy with their right hand....

One observation on the CRMC Forum is that quite a number of riders like Mike Hose on his RGB are off like a rocket right from the start, I've also seen Lea do the same on almost every race and when you see the lean angles that Gary Thwaites gets on a G50 and so on...... Obviously they are all very experienced riders and are probably confident of being on the very ragged edge whether on cold tyres or not....

So is it down to experience (Rob is very experienced) or just down to luck.....

I admit the Classic Club has some eligibility issues at the moment which especially in the Post Classic area are being addressed but are cut off is 1984 on Post Classic so I go back to my original question of "When were tryre warmers first used in Motorcycle Racing"?

I have a feeling that this paticular debate though will run for quite some time within the CRMC membership.... I also appreciate the input from you guys on this thread and look forward to more....

Thanks

John

#18 GD66

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 10:24

I must say hand on heart John, that thankfully any first-lap crashes down here are pretty much no more than you'd expect from conventional first-lap optimism, for which tyre warmers have no known antidote ! One thing's for sure, Gary, Mike and Lea are going to be depressingly quick on lap 1 whether tyre warmers are approved or not, because they are Above Average. What we have to consider are the "Mere Mortals" who are trying to chase them down in the early stages of the race. Honestly mate, it's worth opening up the debate, because for all the cat's-bum faced traditionalists who oppose their use, you'll always find a proponent who has a tale like Rob Hall's to tell, who has been needlessly smacked hard for no good reason because of some antiquated (although probably well-intentioned) rule.

And as Mick's pointed out, airfences, back protectors etc aren't really "period", but you wouldn't really wanna go racing without them...

For me, I'd really like to see race rules relaxed to get as many classic race bikes back on the track as possible. While ever we bicker about eligibility, authenticity and what happened then, numbers are dropping dramatically. Bugger it ! We have a Period 3 500 classic class here : I say, if it's got a drum front brake, let it in !
Let's face it, I've kept an eye on the numbers of participants in the CRMC race classes for a while...we need to relax, open the door and do what's required to keep new blood coming in ! Maintain a stern exterior, uphold rigid rules, and you'll keep things as they "should be"... but you'lll have no-one racing.... ):

Edited by GD66, 01 October 2010 - 10:26.


#19 k21john

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Posted 01 October 2010 - 17:03

Let's face it, I've kept an eye on the numbers of participants in the CRMC race classes for a while...we need to relax, open the door and do what's required to keep new blood coming in ! Maintain a stern exterior, uphold rigid rules, and you'll keep things as they "should be"... but you'lll have no-one racing.... ):


It's a real tricky one as reading lots of threads on our forum there are a lot of guys that would like to change the dates of PC to the mid 90s, but numbers do dwindle. Back in 89 or 90 the club put on a 3 day event at Brands Hatch, they had over 1200 applications for just 300 grid places, I know that wouldn't happen these days but at major events we do run 40 or so races with pretty much full grids.....

Any changes though would mean introducing more PC classes which means other older classes will suffer, I know the club is re appraising the Post Classic Eligibility rules which should open the doors to some new blood which in turn can only be good for the future....

Only time will tell

Cheers

John

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#20 Russell Burrows

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 11:12

Hi Mick. If they're designed like that then they should use warmers, or allow them a lap or two to bring up the temperature. I know classic racing has morphed into something else, but I can't help thinking how good it would be to see Manxes , G50's and the like running on skinny 19 inch triangulars.

On reflection: why can't they just use tyres that work ok regardless? Most of the bikes were never designed to be used with finickity ultra soft rubber. Think its gotta be a ban :eek:

#21 k21john

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Posted 04 October 2010 - 13:55

On reflection: why can't they just use tyres that work ok regardless? Most of the bikes were never designed to be used with finickity ultra soft rubber. Think its gotta be a ban :eek:


Hi Russell

Most of the guys use Avon AMs which work pretty well out of the box, 1 to 1.5 laps and they generally have some heat, indeed most of the Classic guy's are more than happy, where our trouble lies is usually in the Post Classic classes of which the club allows a large range of tyres to be used, some of the 750 TZs and big P&M Kwakas are a big handfull, even on hot tyres but these guys think that tyre warmers will reduce there off's.....

Now I can't comment as these days I'm just a spanner man and spectator who really enjoys the ethos of classic racing but I imagine that this debate especially on the CRMC forum will run for a long time yet....

By the way loved your avatar...

John


#22 Russell Burrows

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 17:44

Hi Russell

Most of the guys use Avon AMs which work pretty well out of the box, 1 to 1.5 laps and they generally have some heat, indeed most of the Classic guy's are more than happy, where our trouble lies is usually in the Post Classic classes of which the club allows a large range of tyres to be used, some of the 750 TZs and big P&M Kwakas are a big handfull, even on hot tyres but these guys think that tyre warmers will reduce there off's.....

Now I can't comment as these days I'm just a spanner man and spectator who really enjoys the ethos of classic racing but I imagine that this debate especially on the CRMC forum will run for a long time yet....

By the way loved your avatar...

John




Ah John, thank Christ for that; I now need to get rid of this horribe mental image of Manxes etc draped in bloody tyre warmers.

Edited by Russell Burrows, 05 October 2010 - 17:57.


#23 fil2.8

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 19:34

Hi Folks

Sorry to have been away for awhile but work etc!

Anyway a quick question....

When were tyre warmers first used in bike racing and by whom?????

Reason for the question is that there is quite a debate going on with the CRMC and it would be nice to quote some facts.....

Cheers and I look forward to your response

John



Well , John, i've asked a few friends of mine , :rolleyes: , and it seems the Endurance boys used them in '87/8 , and they were in general use about 1990/1


#24 fil2.8

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 19:38

Good point, neither are back protecters etc or shark fin chain guards, tyre warmers a good idea. :up:



Buster , Tony Head was using ( and selling ) , I think :confused: 'Protec ' body armour in 81/2

#25 Paul Collins

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 22:44

I think they should make all classic competitors travel to meetings in Ford Thames vans, not only would it be 'period' but it would solve the tyre warmer argument as they probably wouldnt have enough room for a generator in the back :) :)

Edited by Paul Collins, 05 October 2010 - 22:46.


#26 Russell Burrows

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 09:57

Serious question displaying my remarkable ignorance : why are so many Manxes, G50's etc raced with 18 inch wheels? Is it just because 19 inch racing rubber isn't available ? Doesn't it make life difficult in terms of keeping stuff from wacking the deck. Another inch surely makes a lot of difference.

#27 Russell Burrows

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 09:57

I think they should make all classic competitors travel to meetings in Ford Thames vans, not only would it be 'period' but it would solve the tyre warmer argument as they probably wouldnt have enough room for a generator in the back :) :)

:lol:

#28 GD66

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 10:27

Serious question displaying my remarkable ignorance : why are so many Manxes, G50's etc raced with 18 inch wheels? Is it just because 19 inch racing rubber isn't available ? Doesn't it make life difficult in terms of keeping stuff from wacking the deck. Another inch surely makes a lot of difference.



That's it exactly Russell, the only thing you can get in 19" is Heidenau which are diabolical. But come on mate, all the new Molnar and McIntosh Manxes, draped in tyre warmers and all, are still horn machines ridden by quick, ambitious men as well as grizzled veterans, so make sure you get off the sofa and get along to a meeting or two while it all lasts : the noise and the battling will still stir you up, son, and once you've had a stroll through the pits and a chat with some of the crusty mechanics who keep all the old gear running, you'll be beaming.... and if the noise of a few Trident/Rocket 3 triples, and a field of bangers going off the start line doesn't stir you, then it's time for a blood transfusion.... :cool:


#29 k21john

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 16:20

That's it exactly Russell, the only thing you can get in 19" is Heidenau which are diabolical. But come on mate, all the new Molnar and McIntosh Manxes, draped in tyre warmers and all, are still horn machines ridden by quick, ambitious men as well as grizzled veterans, so make sure you get off the sofa and get along to a meeting or two while it all lasts : the noise and the battling will still stir you up, son, and once you've had a stroll through the pits and a chat with some of the crusty mechanics who keep all the old gear running, you'll be beaming.... and if the noise of a few Trident/Rocket 3 triples, and a field of bangers going off the start line doesn't stir you, then it's time for a blood transfusion.... :cool:


It's amazing how many dare I say it "New Manx Nortons" are running out in classic races these days, but I'm with Glenn on the triples, we often have over 20 triples on the grid for the Formula 750 races, awesome noise and one I'll never tire of...

At the Donington revival we even had some running full open meggas, now that will make the hairs on your neck curl....

Getting ready for a trip up to Cadwell Park tomorrow, last one of the year...

Cheers

John

#30 SnowyTupwood

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 23:42

Most of the guys use Avon AMs which work pretty well out of the box, 1 to 1.5 laps and they generally have some heat, indeed most of the Classic guy's are more than happy, where our trouble lies is usually in the Post Classic classes of which the club allows a large range of tyres to be used, some of the 750 TZs and big P&M Kwakas are a big handfull, even on hot tyres but these guys think that tyre warmers will reduce there off's


Have to agree with this John, I race a YPVS engined LC in the Bemsee YPM's on AM's, having come from a TZR with Dunlop 209's on it I can't get my head round not using a tyre warmer and in fact have been using them on the Avons most of the season. They don't really need it, they are, I'm reliably informed, designed to work from cold. By the time we have sat in the collecting area, we are normally out after the superteens or rookie 600's it seems with their appropriate carnage, any heat we have in the tyres is severly diminished anyway.

Pat Herron rode the bike last weekend, didn't use a tyre warmer and reckoned a warm up lap was all they need, good enough for second in indifferent conditions. Opionion is though that the harder Dunlop KR needs a good couple of laps to up to working temperature. I'm not convinced that tyre warmers on our road based tyres are neccessary, but a lot of it is a head thing, I've forgotten to plug them in before, actually went out without knowing because my mech thought it best not to tell me, didn't make any difference as far as I could tell. :well:

By the way John, I work with chris' sister :clap:

Edited by SnowyTupwood, 06 October 2010 - 23:44.


#31 roger382

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 10:34

I think they should make all classic competitors travel to meetings in Ford Thames vans, not only would it be 'period' but it would solve the tyre warmer argument as they probably wouldnt have enough room for a generator in the back :) :)


Great idea, best safety feature so far :) After travelling up/down the country for an early/late season meet with the standard Thames `heater`, they`ed probably be too bloody cold to race anyway :rotfl: It once took me 12 hours to get up to Croft, from the southeast, even stopped an put my leathers on in an attempt to get warm !! ): Oh happy days...... all night runs to get up to Liverpool for the Manx ferry, 9 hours to get to St.Eval, in Cornwall, etc, etc...... I know I`m a `boring ol` fart`, but am I missing something, why can`t they engage the traction control that we used back in the 60`s/70`s? If my memory`s correct, I think we called it "brain ~ right wrist co-ordination"...... hang on...... just got to get my helmet `n flak jacket ready :well: Try getting any grip out of a cold Dunlop triangular that we put on the 50`s, the whole tyre was only 2.5" wide, must have had all of 1" width of rubber on the track!! The sun`s out now so I`m off to the woods to avoid any `incoming` :wave:






#32 stuavant

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 11:12

e ? Another inch surely makes a lot of difference.

Unfortunately my wife does not agree :o

#33 terryshep

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 17:11

Unfortunately my wife does not agree :o

Dream on, Stu!

#34 Russell Burrows

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 17:22

Unfortunately my wife does not agree :o


I waited two days for that ;)