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Indianapolis 500 - the first 100 years


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#101 E.B.

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Posted 30 April 2011 - 18:54

Thanks for the correction and Stutz info, ref the Studebaker I got the President from this page, would I be correct in thinking the #34 is a 250 cui Commander ?


I thought they ran as 336 cui?

I wasn't correcting anything, just adding!





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#102 arttidesco

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Posted 30 April 2011 - 19:02

Thanks EB I understand now Studebaker racing should read 1933 Tony, Commander chassis 336/337 cui ?

#103 B Squared

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 11:38

I came across this link to Wesley Winterink Photography. Some neat old photos, all from the Speedway.

http://photos.winter....com/p769167246

#104 jj2728

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 20:23

I came across this link to Wesley Winterink Photography. Some neat old photos, all from the Speedway.

http://photos.winter....com/p769167246


Now those are some neat pics. Thanks for the link.

#105 arttidesco

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 07:50

I came across this link to Wesley Winterink Photography. Some neat old photos, all from the Speedway.

http://photos.winter....com/p769167246


Stunning find Brian :up:

Posted Image

The 1952 Cummins Diesel Special in a photo taken by Ed Arnaudin 30 years after it's day of glory.

Found this footage of pole day 1952 on youtube.

#106 arttidesco

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 11:10

I'd like to thank E.B. for his help identifying the Delage, Stutz and Studebakers last week.

This week I am going to blog about a couple of Ed Arnaudin's photos taken during the 1960's.

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I wonder if any body can confirm the identify of this car and driver, the only start number with a 0 on the end is the #10, something to do with lap scoring I believe, which might make this car Jimmy Bryans Epperly Offy ?

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I understand Jimmy suffered a fatal accident in 1960 and am also wondering who is seen here demonstrating the Belond Exhaust Special in this photo taken in 1982, the two drivers bear a passing resemblance to my eye's hence my query if that is Jimmy sitting in the car in the top photo.

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Moving along to the Jim Robbins garage in 1960 does any one recognises the gentleman looking into the camera wearing glasses or the USAC official in this photo ? I know the #97 Watson Offy was driven by Dick Rathman older brother of 1960 Indy winner Jim and that the brothers switched names so Jim could race under age.

Any answers to these questions used in my blogs will be duly credited.

Thanking you in anticipation of your responses.



#107 B Squared

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 11:17

Definitely Jimmy Bryan in the 1960 Epperly-Offy in the first photo. Started 10th, placed 19th, 152 laps - DNF - fuel pump drive

1957 winner, Sam Hanks, is seen driving the car in the second shot.

I'll have to look at some reference material to help on the third.



#108 arttidesco

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Posted 08 May 2011 - 11:20

Thanks Brian :up:

#109 arttidesco

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 14:42

Posted Image

Photo by Ed Arnaudin posted on behalf of Steve Arnaudin

I had always believed that Jim Clarks Lotus in 1963 was the second rear engine 'funny car' to appear at Indy, however the above photo dated 1962 would suggest otherwise, I can't find any record of the #52 qualifying does anybody know what it is and who is driving it and if the date correct ?

Thanking you in anticipation of your responses.

Edited by arttidesco, 10 May 2011 - 14:43.


#110 RA Historian

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 19:24

I had always believed that Jim Clarks Lotus in 1963 was the second rear engine 'funny car' to appear at Indy, however the above photo dated 1962 would suggest otherwise, I can't find any record of the #52 qualifying does anybody know what it is and who is driving it and if the date correct ?

Looks like a John Zink gas turbine car.

But in response to your first line quoted above, you are overlooking the Mickey Thompson cars in 1962. Dan Gurney drove one in the race, was a DNF, but Dan's guest at the race, Colin Chapman, did have a light bulb (with dollar signs!) go on...

#111 E.B.

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 19:26

Hi again,

That'll be the John Zink turbine (an old Lotus?), one of the cars that Dan Gurney drove in 1962. I can't recall if anyone else drove it, as the helmet colour is confusing me if this is Dan?

By the way, I now believe the 2 drivers (in 1962) of the Studebakers in the photos you posted earlier are Luther Johnson in car 34, and Cliff Bergere in his original mount (car 22).

It may well be Earl Cooper driving the Stutz too, as he was at the Speedway that year.






#112 Michael Ferner

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 19:46

Hi again,

That'll be the John Zink turbine (an old Lotus?), one of the cars that Dan Gurney drove in 1962. I can't recall if anyone else drove it, as the helmet colour is confusing me if this is Dan?


Bill Cheesbourgh (always a good answer when it comes to weird cars! ;))

#113 E.B.

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 19:53

Bill Cheesbourgh (always a good answer when it comes to weird cars! ;))


Thanks Michael - is that the correct spelling of his surname or just a typoh?


#114 Tim Murray

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 19:56

Google throws up this interesting report by Len Williams of Boeing (who provided the car's engine) which says that Duane Carter also drove the car at Indy, and that John Zink himself drove the car in the shakedown testing at the Zink ranch:

http://www.lennybabe...trip-report.htm

#115 RA Historian

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 20:33

That'll be the John Zink turbine (an old Lotus?), one of the cars that Dan Gurney drove in 1962.

I strongly doubt if it was "an old Lotus" as no Lotus had yet been built for Indy Car racing, the first being the 29 which came the next year. As far as an old 18 or 21 F-1 car, I doubt if a gas turbine could easily be slipped into the engine bay. I strongly suspect tht it was a purpose built chassis for the turbine, although I cannot tell you who built it off hand, but I suspect that there are members on this forum who can and will.

In the same post there is a typo. I imagine that you meant '1932' rather than 1962' regarding the Studebakers.;)

Tom

Edited by RA Historian, 10 May 2011 - 20:34.


#116 Tim Murray

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 21:03

... although I cannot tell you who built it off hand, but I suspect that there are members on this forum who can and will.

If you check out the link in the post immediately above yours, you'll find that they already have. Also, if you check post 94, you will see that 1962 isn't a typo.

#117 Michael Ferner

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 21:05

Thanks Michael - is that the correct spelling of his surname or just a typoh?


It's a typoh. On tuesdays, I end my sentences with an h. Alwaysh.

#118 Michael Ferner

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 21:06

I strongly doubt if it was "an old Lotus" as no Lotus had yet been built for Indy Car racing, the first being the 29 which came the next year. As far as an old 18 or 21 F-1 car, I doubt if a gas turbine could easily be slipped into the engine bay. I strongly suspect tht it was a purpose built chassis for the turbine, although I cannot tell you who built it off hand, but I suspect that there are members on this forum who can and will.


Denny Moore built the Zink turbineh.

#119 Flat Black 84

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 21:17

For some odd reason I've got an overwhelming craving for tabbouleh.

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#120 arttidesco

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 21:38

Posted Image

They say if one is gonna make a mistake one may as well do it royally so convinced was I the photo of the #35 above was incorrectly labelled Indy62 I had put it in my 1963 folder ! :blush:

So two different chassis at Indy in '62 with the motor in the back, what a lesson for the day thanks Tom, EB, Tim, Micheal and FB84 :up:

@Tom just to clarify the photo's E.B. is referring to of the Studebakers #34 and #22 were taken by ED in 1962 :-)


#121 RA Historian

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 21:43

If you check out the link in the post immediately above yours, you'll find that they already have. Also, if you check post 94, you will see that 1962 isn't a typo.

Ooops. Must use scroll back key... :blush:
Tom

#122 arttidesco

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 08:24

By way of thanks Steve Arnaudin has sent me 4 pdf's with 25 pages of scans from a publication called Racing Pictorial, edited by Sam Hanks and published in Indianapolis the Issue covers the 1961 Indy 500, including colour photo's of all 33 starters.

Also in the issue are 1960 pics from the first championship races at Trenton & Indy Raceway Park, along with pics from DuQuoin, IL, Syracuse, NY, Sacremento CA, Springfield IL, and Phoenix, AZ.

There are also 4 pics of the 60/61 USAC Stock Car Championship trails.

If anyone would like a copy of the PDF's please contact me using the 'e-mail' button, my PM box is getting a little full.

#123 arttidesco

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 13:31

Posted Image

Does anybody recognise this non qualifier from 1963, and or know who failed to qualify driving it ?

Thanks in anticipation :-)

#124 Amphicar

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 14:15

Posted Image

Does anybody recognise this non qualifier from 1963, and or know who failed to qualify driving it ?

Thanks in anticipation :-)

It looks like one of the Mickey Thompson Buick powered cars designed by John Crosthwaite that were first run in 1962 (Dan Gurney finished 20th in one).

#125 RA Historian

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 15:31

It looks like one of the Mickey Thompson Buick powered cars designed by John Crosthwaite that were first run in 1962 (Dan Gurney finished 20th in one).

I agree. Definitely appears to be a '62 Thompson to me.
Tom

#126 Flat Black 84

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 16:45

Thompson's entries always seemed to sport numbers in the 80s (83, 84, 85), which of course, adds to the likelihood that this is a Thompson car.

#127 arttidesco

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 16:56

Thanks for the Thompson chassis type identification, Amphicar, Tom and FB84, does anyone have any idea's who was either scheduled to run or if it ever ran ?

Thanks.



#128 Michael Ferner

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 17:26

Thanks for the Thompson chassis type identification, Amphicar, Tom and FB84, does anyone have any idea's who was either scheduled to run or if it ever ran ?

Thanks.


Bill Cheesbourg, again. It's Wednesday, hence no h. :)

#129 arttidesco

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 18:20

I'm beginning to like Bill Cheesbourg, I wonder where I can get some Bill Cheesbourg merchandise ?

Thanks Michael :-)

#130 Jim Thurman

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 18:26

Bill Cheesbourg (always a good answer when it comes to weird cars! ;))

:lol: The best humor is based deeply in truth.


#131 Flat Black 84

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 18:31

I'm beginning to like Bill Cheesbourg, I wonder where I can get some Bill Cheesbourg merchandise ?


I used to have a 1:24 model of the Cheez Whiz Special he drove at Milwaukee in '65.

#132 arttidesco

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 18:41

I used to have a 1:24 model of the Cheez Whiz Special he drove at Milwaukee in '65.


Any idea where it is now ?


#133 E.B.

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 19:26

I strongly doubt if it was "an old Lotus" as no Lotus had yet been built for Indy Car racing, the first being the 29 which came the next year. As far as an old 18 or 21 F-1 car, I doubt if a gas turbine could easily be slipped into the engine bay. I strongly suspect tht it was a purpose built chassis for the turbine, although I cannot tell you who built it off hand, but I suspect that there are members on this forum who can and will.


Indeed, that was the reason for the question, as I read somewhere (Andrew Ferguson's book?) that Dan Gurney was certain it was an old Lotus chassis.

No typo from me on the Studebaker dates thoug (correct spelling for a Wednesday).







#134 Flat Black 84

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 19:32

Any idea where it is now ?


That was a (lame) joke, Art. Just a play on the driver's name and the dairy predilections of the great state of Wisconsin. There was no Cheez Whiz Special, so far as I know.

:smoking:

Edited by Flat Black 84, 11 May 2011 - 19:33.


#135 Jim Thurman

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 19:49

I'm beginning to like Bill Cheesbourg, I wonder where I can get some Bill Cheesbourg merchandise ?

You'd probably have to make it yourself, but I'm in for it :up: After Cheesbourg was done with Indy, he raced stock cars (super stocks and late models) until he was about 60. And he was not cruising around either, he won...a lot! Even made the trip from Arizona to Florida to run a "Speedweek" for late models in the late 1980's, when he was about 60 years of age.

The range of equipment Cheesbourg drove is stunning.

#136 RA Historian

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 21:10

No typo from me on the Studebaker dates thoug (correct spelling for a Wednesday).

My face is already red in post 121... :blush:
Tom

#137 Amphicar

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 21:50

Thanks for the Thompson chassis type identification, Amphicar, Tom and FB84, does anyone have any idea's who was either scheduled to run or if it ever ran ?

Thanks.

The following is a quote from Erik Arneson's "Mickey Thompson: The Fast Life and Tragic Death of a Racing Legend":

“As May approached, the plan was to enter three cars of the new (pancake) design and two cars with the 1962 design. Gurney was signed by Ford and (Graham) Hill declined to drive the new car due to his concerns about how it handled. Mickey’s driver lineup for 1963 was Duane Carter, Al Miller and Bill Krause. Krause was involved in an accident during practice and did not qualify, but both Miller (thirty-first in the 1962 design) and Carter (fifteenth in the new design) qualified for the 500, with Miller finishing a respectable ninth. Carter retired half way through the race with engine trouble.” (my emphasis)

Sadly, no mention of Bill Cheesbourg as part of the 1963 driver roster.

#138 E.B.

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 22:02

Sadly, no mention of Bill Cheesbourg as part of the 1963 driver roster.


Odd as he was the officially entered driver of car number 85. Made quite a spectacular job of destroying the thing in an early practice run too.



#139 Amphicar

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 22:19

Odd as he was the officially entered driver of car number 85. Made quite a spectacular job of destroying the thing in an early practice run too.

Odder still - this website shows Bill Cheesbourg as having failed to qualify car #27 but makes no mention of #85 http://racing-refere...anapolis_500/UO


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#140 E.B.

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 22:28

Maybe it's not listed on the basis that it didn't "fail" to qualify, it had already been wiped out before even getting to attempt qualifying!


#141 Amphicar

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 22:47

Maybe it's not listed on the basis that it didn't "fail" to qualify, it had already been wiped out before even getting to attempt qualifying!

That sounds plausible - incidentally, did the 1962 Thompson cars that were used in 1963 still have Buick engines or did they use Chevys like the new cars?

#142 arttidesco

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 22:50

EB there is no mention by Boeing man Len Williams in his account of the Zink Trackburner turbine vehicle having a Lotus chassis as an engineer I think he might have mentioned it, he was certainly a car buff, but of course he may not have known it.

FB84 so no chassis number for the Cheez Whiz Special then :| :drunk:

EB & Amphicar so we have Cheesbourg officially entered in the #85 but not on Amhicars list and Marsten Gregory and Bill Krause failing to qualify the #82 and no mention of any #85 at all, so maybe it never made a qualifying run because it was destroyed by persons yet to be definitively ascertained ?

#143 arttidesco

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 22:53

Had not even thought the '62 Thompsons might have Chevys in '63 Amphicar good question anybody ?


#144 Tim Murray

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 22:54

This site lists Cheesbourg as driving a Thompson car, but doesn't have a number for it:

http://www.champcars...aces/196302.htm

#145 arttidesco

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 22:57

Al Miller had a Thompson Chevy according to Amphicars list which according to Eric Arneson's quotation above was a '62 chassis :up:

#146 arttidesco

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 23:03

Thanks Tim so most likely Cheesborg was in the #85 Thompson Chevy since Krause is listed as wrecking the #82 Thompson Chevy in Tim's list is there any disagreement on that ?

Thanks for your time and trouble gentleman :-)


#147 Tim Murray

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 23:04

EB there is no mention by Boeing man Len Williams in his account of the Zink Trackburner turbine vehicle having a Lotus chassis as an engineer I think he might have mentioned it, he was certainly a car buff, but of course he may not have known it.

That's the report I linked to in post 114. It says that the car was designed by (Zink) Chief Mechanic Denny Moore, and was built at Zink's, with suspension parts supplied by Troutman & Barnes. As I understand it, Williams also played some part in the car's design. It's a pity we can't find any of his earlier reports on the project's progress - he must have written a few.

#148 Tim Murray

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 23:19

We've been here before, folks:

First Lotus at the Brickyard

#149 arttidesco

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 23:21

Indeed Tim apologies for not crediting you for finding it, I can't find a contact address on that site otherwise I would e-mail Mr Williams :-(

#150 arttidesco

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Posted 12 May 2011 - 00:03

We've been here before, folks:

First Lotus at the Brickyard


Brings a Hans Bellmer quote to mind but that is way off topic, thanks Tim, from what I have read of the Leonard Williams account I can't see any Lotus connection at all, though there is a teasing hint on one of the pages that Frank Kurtis had some drawings of a rear engine car back in 1958, not long after Cooper started to make an impact, I wonder if this is where the John Zink modified Lotus myth came about ?