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Engine Usages going into Brazil


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#1 rad787

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 04:27

Been trying to find info on this but could not do so. Anyone can shed light on the engine usage going into Brazil for everyone? It puts a big light on what will happen, penalties and who can push hard.

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#2 Gbain

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 07:34

This may help:

Number Car Driver New engines used so far

01 McLaren Mercedes Jenson Button 8
02 McLaren Mercedes Lewis Hamilton 8
03 Mercedes Benz Michael Schumacher 8
04 Mercedes Benz Nico Rosberg 8
05 RBR Renault Sebastian Vettel 8
06 RBR Renault Mark Webber 7
07 Ferrari Felipe Massa 9
08 Ferrari Fernando Alonso 8
09 Williams Cosworth Rubens Barrichello 7
10 Williams Cosworth Nico Hülkenberg 8
11 Renault Robert Kubica 7
12 Renault Vitaly Pertrov 7
14 Force India Mercedes Adrian Sutil 8
15 Force India Mercedes Vitantonio Liuzzi 8
16 STR Ferrari Sébastien Buemi 8
17 STR Ferrari Jaime Alguersuari 8
18 Lotus Cosworth Jarno Trulli 8
19 Lotus Cosworth Heikki Kovalainen 8
20 HRT Cosworth Sakon Yamamoto 7
21 HRT Cosworth Bruno Senna 7
22 BMW Sauber Ferrari Nick Heidfeld 9
23 BMW Sauber Ferrari Kamui Kobayashi 8
24 Virgin Cosworth Timo Glock 8
25 Virgin Cosworth Lucas Di Grassi 8

Jo Bauer
FIA Formula One Technical Delegate

The following driver will use a new engine for the remainder of the Event:
Number Car Driver Previously used engines
06 Red Bull Racing Renault Mark Webber 7
The engine used by the above driver is one of the eight new engines allowed for the 2010
Championship season and this is in conformity with Article 28.4a of the 2010 Formula One
Sporting Regulations.
Jo Bauer
FIA Formula One Technical Delegate

http://www.fia.com/e...race-report.pdf


#3 phil1993

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 07:52

Try here:
http://www.vivaf1.com/reliability.php

#4 engel

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 08:20

Keep in mind Ferrari can use the engines they discarded in Bahrain when we get to Abu Dhabi.

#5 Bleu

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 08:38

Keep in mind Ferrari can use the engines they discarded in Bahrain when we get to Abu Dhabi.


They can use it in FPs and by my understanding they did just that and they are gone now. Alonso had engine failure on Friday in China and that was his Bahrain engine AFAIK.

#6 engel

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 08:46

They can use it in FPs and by my understanding they did just that and they are gone now. Alonso had engine failure on Friday in China and that was his Bahrain engine AFAIK.



They can be used in Free Practice AND the final race of the season (ie Abu Dhabi)

Afaik Alonso lost engine #2 in China, which was the engine he raced with in Bahrain. I was talking about engine #1

#7 imightbewrong

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 09:24

Try here:
http://www.vivaf1.com/reliability.php


That site is incorrect. Alonso used the GER/HUN engine in Singapore, so I wouldn't trust that site.

#8 dau

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 09:54

That site is incorrect. Alonso used the GER/HUN engine in Singapore, so I wouldn't trust that site.

The site is correct, you're just reading it wrong. It does only say how many engines were used, NOT where they were used.

Also, there already is an Engine Usage Thread: http://forums.autosp...howtopic=135693

Edited by dau, 25 October 2010 - 09:54.


#9 Sinister

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 09:59

Didn't Webber use #8 for this weekend?

And what happens to Vettel now, considering his engine failure? New one for Brazil or one of his older units?

#10 imightbewrong

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 10:01

The site is correct, you're just reading it wrong. It does only say how many engines were used, NOT where they were used.

Also, there already is an Engine Usage Thread: http://forums.autosp...howtopic=135693


I'll be damned! You are correct, my apologies.

#11 JosTheBoss

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 10:14

Didn't Webber use #8 for this weekend?


Read Gbain's post again, carefully. :)

#12 Sinister

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 10:24

Read Gbain's post again, carefully. :)

Ahhhh...

Previously used 7, now using #8 of 8. Got it.

EDIT ~ Watching the Forum now and CH said that VET's still good on engines... older unit with less mileage. Guess that answers my question.

Edited by Sinister, 25 October 2010 - 10:41.


#13 daredevil

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 10:40

So for FA it looks like the Monza engine (8) will need to take care of the final two races, which is certainly cutting it a bit tight. Engine 7 should do well for the remaining FP's: it only run for about 2/3 of the full distance in Spa and I don't think that yesterday's Korean GP was particularly demanding engine wise with all the laps under safety car and in rain conditions.

#14 nada12

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 11:21

Keep in mind Ferrari can use the engines they discarded in Bahrain when we get to Abu Dhabi.

I remember reading somewhere that those engines are too old by that point to still be useful but can't find any confirmation. Anyone?

#15 Sinister

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 11:39

I remember reading somewhere that those engines are too old by that point to still be useful but can't find any confirmation. Anyone?

Yeah... as speculated by ATM_Andy
http://forums.autosp...a...t&p=4576418

#16 Mika Mika

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 11:59

Yeah... as speculated by ATM_Andy
http://forums.autosp...a...t&p=4576418


Intrestingly ont he same page ATM_Andy also says he doesnt think Ferrari will have a problem!

#17 ZakspeedYakspeed

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 12:22

I guess Webber still has a *new* engine for Brazil... #8 did only 1.65 laps in race "anger" :rolleyes:

#18 GrzegorzChyla

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 15:43

It looks to me that Vettel is going for number nine in Brazil. Am I right?
Of course we don't know the state of his engine after Korea, but it does not look good...

Edited by GrzegorzChyla, 25 October 2010 - 15:44.


#19 race addicted

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 16:03

I guess Webber still has a *new* engine for Brazil... #8 did only 1.65 laps in race "anger" :rolleyes:


Plus qualifying and third free. But it's still a very fresh engine.


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#20 anbeck

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 05:41

When did Massa receive his penalty for engine #9 (Sorry, I really don't remember!)?

#21 gaston_foix

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 05:45

When did Massa receive his penalty for engine #9 (Sorry, I really don't remember!)?

Starting last in Singapore due to a gearbox problem he choose to tale the 9th engine. Thus, the penalty didn't affect him.

#22 morals

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 05:45

Singapore. He was demoted from #24 in the grid to#24 in the grid :p

#23 Melbourne Park

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 06:19

I think FA blew that first Ferrari engine, at the beginning of the season. Ferrari had engine problems at the season's start.

From another thread:

Ferrari perhaps have one, two race engine to use ... engine number six. Otherwise Ferdinand will cop a 10 grid penalty. I presume Ferrari's other engines are gone, or not so well. They had engine problems at the beginning of the season, where they broke one before I think race one. Alonso's engine issues are curious indeed. From Australia, here is are his engine usages: 3 3 3 4 4 4 5 5 5 6 6 7 8 8 8 8
So he actually used an engine for its fourth race. And he won! Which is quite amazing. But one might ask - as I do - why would he risk using an engine for its fourth race? Especially since number 7 was used just once? And number 6, just twice? The 7 race engine was used at Belgium, where I think he crashed. Hence perhaps #7 was damaged. It is reasonable to conclude that it was, because otherwise they'd surely have used it at Monza. So that leaves either: use number 6 engine for its third and fourth times, or go back to that other group of three race engines and grab one of them for the final race. If Ferrari changed their engine during the season to aid reliability, then I presume #6 wiould be OK for two more races. But ... its not in the bag for FA's engine life. And Filipe has taken an engine penalty, and I suspect he has not pushed his engines as much as FA has.

Webber has in practical terms a barely used engine, as he crashed fairly early in the race, and it was a new engine, but it did qualifying. Webber has used engines for three races two times this year, including Monza, where his engine was in its third race, and that engine would have been very highly stressed. Nonetheless he finished the Monza race.

Vettel though does have engine issues, and has had them for some time. Red Bull say he did not risk the engine this weekend. Which is of concern, because that engine failed. But it was a fairly high mileage engine, at 1,600 plus km. Vettel has run engines for three races only once this season, unlike Webber. So Seb has a number of engines he could choose from, but they'd be in their third uses. And they'd be the same mileages, as the one which failed on Sunday. Since he has two races to go, he'll likely run two different 3rd time engines, and hope for the best. It's not a great position to be in actually.

Meanwhile Webber on the engine front is sitting pretty. He has an almost fresh engine, and that is the one he'll have to use. Unless he bins it again of course.  ;) I presume they used some very glossy paint on those Korean curbs?

Edited by Melbourne Park, 27 October 2010 - 06:24.


#24 lafitek

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 06:36

Plus qualifying and third free. But it's still a very fresh engine.

it would be nice to see webber alonso crash in the first corner ...both will have "very fresh engine" for abu dhabi

Edited by lafitek, 27 October 2010 - 06:37.


#25 as65p

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 06:50

it would be nice to see webber alonso crash in the first corner ...both will have "very fresh engine" for abu dhabi


But that would be unfair to Hamilton and Vettel, who would have to use old engines in Abu Dhabi!

So it's much better if Vettel and Hamilton crash into eachother too in Brazil, isn't it? Then they can all start with nice fresh units in the last race. Meanwhile Button can close the points gap with a win in Brazil...

:drunk:

Edited by as65p, 27 October 2010 - 06:52.


#26 gaston_foix

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 06:57

I think FA blew that first Ferrari engine, at the beginning of the season. Ferrari had engine problems at the season's start.

From another thread:

Ferrari perhaps have one, two race engine to use ... engine number six. Otherwise Ferdinand will cop a 10 grid penalty. I presume Ferrari's other engines are gone, or not so well. They had engine problems at the beginning of the season, where they broke one before I think race one. Alonso's engine issues are curious indeed. From Australia, here is are his engine usages: 3 3 3 4 4 4 5 5 5 6 6 7 8 8 8 8
So he actually used an engine for its fourth race. And he won! Which is quite amazing. But one might ask - as I do - why would he risk using an engine for its fourth race? Especially since number 7 was used just once? And number 6, just twice? The 7 race engine was used at Belgium, where I think he crashed. Hence perhaps #7 was damaged. It is reasonable to conclude that it was, because otherwise they'd surely have used it at Monza. So that leaves either: use number 6 engine for its third and fourth times, or go back to that other group of three race engines and grab one of them for the final race. If Ferrari changed their engine during the season to aid reliability, then I presume #6 wiould be OK for two more races. But ... its not in the bag for FA's engine life. And Filipe has taken an engine penalty, and I suspect he has not pushed his engines as much as FA has.

Webber has in practical terms a barely used engine, as he crashed fairly early in the race, and it was a new engine, but it did qualifying. Webber has used engines for three races two times this year, including Monza, where his engine was in its third race, and that engine would have been very highly stressed. Nonetheless he finished the Monza race.

Vettel though does have engine issues, and has had them for some time. Red Bull say he did not risk the engine this weekend. Which is of concern, because that engine failed. But it was a fairly high mileage engine, at 1,600 plus km. Vettel has run engines for three races only once this season, unlike Webber. So Seb has a number of engines he could choose from, but they'd be in their third uses. And they'd be the same mileages, as the one which failed on Sunday. Since he has two races to go, he'll likely run two different 3rd time engines, and hope for the best. It's not a great position to be in actually.

Meanwhile Webber on the engine front is sitting pretty. He has an almost fresh engine, and that is the one he'll have to use. Unless he bins it again of course.;) I presume they used some very glossy paint on those Korean curbs?


Well i don't know from where u got this but it's wrong
It only can be this 2 ways:
3 3 3 4 4 4 5 5 5 6 6 7 8 6 8 8
3 3 3 4 4 4 5 5 5 6 6 7 8 6 7 7

In Singapore he used the engine #6. I'm very sure of that.

Edited by gaston_foix, 27 October 2010 - 06:57.


#27 Bleu

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 09:23

They just list basically where driver has got new engine. Not related to top drivers but otherwise the chart could show that Sauber has had one engine doing five races already, although one of them ended about 2/3 of the distance (Heidfeld in Singapore).


#28 search

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 10:26

Well i don't know from where u got this but it's wrong
It only can be this 2 ways:
3 3 3 4 4 4 5 5 5 6 6 7 8 6 8 8
3 3 3 4 4 4 5 5 5 6 6 7 8 6 7 7

In Singapore he used the engine #6. I'm very sure of that.


what about

3 3 3 4 4 4 5 5 5 6 6 7 8 6 7 8

?

if that's the the case he would be on his third race with each engine at brazil and abu dhabi.

#29 gaston_foix

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 11:12

what about

3 3 3 4 4 4 5 5 5 6 6 7 8 6 7 8

?

if that's the the case he would be on his third race with each engine at brazil and abu dhabi.

Any prove? James Allen have other ideas and he has more insides than both of us...

#30 Buttoneer

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 11:13

They can be used in Free Practice AND the final race of the season (ie Abu Dhabi)

Afaik Alonso lost engine #2 in China, which was the engine he raced with in Bahrain. I was talking about engine #1

ATM_Andy suggested that there were serious problems in trying to use any engine which had been mothballed for six months. Essentially, it isn't going to last a race distance, and would be a risk to available setup time if they used it in free practice.

#31 goingthedistance

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 11:57

James Allen claims Alonso will use his Monza engine for the final two races.

http://www.jamesalle...-state-of-play/

#32 T-Mobile

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 12:04

James Allen claims Alonso will use his Monza engine for the final two races.

http://www.jamesalle...-state-of-play/


Hmm, the engine from the race which is known for its harshness on engines? Interesting...

Whichever way it happens, I am quite sure that at least one of the title contenders is going to have reliability issues going into then last race.

#33 flyer121

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 12:05

James Allen claims Alonso will use his Monza engine for the final two races.

http://www.jamesalle...-state-of-play/


Monza engine will be overworked and there are good chances that this WDC gets decided by engine issues.
Personally I think its a shame that engine usage is such a big factor in deciding WDCs. And I dont understand the point of this regulation?


Just look at Vettel , he nearly skipped 3rd FP to save his engine and yet couldnt finish the race.
Surely racing hard should be the name of the game more than how much you conserve engines. F1 is going in the wrong direction.

At the very least increase the 8 engines allowed to 10 next year if multiple contenders have engine issues.

Edited by flyer121, 27 October 2010 - 12:06.


#34 Mika Mika

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 12:07

Monza engine will be overworked and there are good chances that this WDC gets decided by engine issues.
Personally I think its a shame that engine usage is such a big factor in deciding WDCs. And I dont understand the point of this regulation?


Just look at Vettel , he nearly skipped 3rd FP to save his engine and yet couldnt finish the race.
Surely racing hard should be the name of the game more than how much you conserve engines. F1 is going in the wrong direction.

At the very least increase the 8 engines allowed to 10 next year if multiple contenders have engine issues.


It's up to the car designers to build the car to fit the regs not the other way around...

#35 flyer121

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 12:19

It's up to the car designers to build the car to fit the regs not the other way around...


Cant argue with that .. but they can easily make the title fight less of a gamble on the machinery and more about the driver skill.

Clearly Vettel's side took a gamble on that engine by missing out the FP3 totally. we dont want people sitting out of sessions because they dont have engines? Do we?

#36 Mika Mika

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 12:23

Cant argue with that .. but they can easily make the title fight less of a gamble on the machinery and more about the driver skill.

Clearly Vettel's side took a gamble on that engine by missing out the FP3 totally. we dont want people sitting out of sessions because they dont have engines? Do we?


However - Vettel may have enjoyed a car advantage by stressing those engines so much.




#37 Ferrari2183

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 12:31

It's all useless speculation on our part. We don't know what engine settings Alonso was running and we don't know how hard Alonso was pushing the engine at Monza. He was following Button for the first half of the race and after the stops Button turned down his engine. So who is to say that Alonso didn't do similar?

What we do know is that the only time the engine was really pushed was in quali as Alonso's fastest lap (lap 52 of 53) was some 2 seconds off his pole lap.

#38 flyer121

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 12:33

However - Vettel may have enjoyed a car advantage by stressing those engines so much.


But whats wrong with everyone enjoying the same car advantage... Give your best and see who wins !
And I am not saying Vettel would benefit in any way... he may lose out to someone else who suddenly started giving 100% because of relaxed regs.

If the regs were sensible , then all of them should stress the car / engine to get the max. I dont understand why we even consider conserving the car as a skill at all.

Which one would you rather see

Best driver out of 24 - all pushing 100%
OR
Best driver out of 24 - everyone pushing a random number between 80 to 100%

It just spoils racing IMO. F1 diehards may differ

Edited by flyer121, 27 October 2010 - 12:37.


#39 Nitropower

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 12:34

what about the spa engine for alonso?

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#40 Ferrari2183

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 12:45

what about the spa engine for alonso?

It has done its 3 races (Spa, Suzuka and Korea) according to James Allen.

#41 undersquare

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 12:47

Cant argue with that .. but they can easily make the title fight less of a gamble on the machinery and more about the driver skill.

Clearly Vettel's side took a gamble on that engine by missing out the FP3 totally. we dont want people sitting out of sessions because they dont have engines? Do we?


Whatever the regs are, teams will design to the limit of them and reliability/conservation will be part of the competition. Engines have always failed, drivers used to buzz them, now they do fastest laps at the end of the race. Other drivers have engines left, Renault engines even.

Eventually Sebi will work it out.

#42 David1976

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 12:54

This is all very confusing...

Which, if any, of the "final five" have an advantage on engines? Who has the most to lose?

As far as I can read teh only one yet to start on engine 8 is Webber.

#43 as65p

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 12:58

It has done its 3 races (Spa, Suzuka and Korea) according to James Allen.


Then for the engine, the rain in Korea was just what the doctor ordered, wasn't it? I know Vettels engine let go, but in general rain race are said to be much easier on the engines.

I wouldn't mind rain in brazil either, and not only becuase of the engine...  ;)

#44 Nitropower

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 12:59

It has done its 3 races (Spa, Suzuka and Korea) according to James Allen.


then it is monza engine for the last two as they mentioned

#45 as65p

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 13:02

then it is monza engine for the last two as they mentioned


So in theory, not THAT much of a problem, other than the unkown factor of how much the engine was stressed in Monza, otherwise it's a standard 3-race usage they're looking at.

#46 Panktej

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 13:04

This is all very confusing...

Which, if any, of the "final five" have an advantage on engines? Who has the most to lose?

As far as I can read teh only one yet to start on engine 8 is Webber.


Webber used a new engine in Korea

#47 goingthedistance

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 13:06

So in theory, not THAT much of a problem, other than the unkown factor of how much the engine was stressed in Monza, otherwise it's a standard 3-race usage they're looking at.


Yes though I have to say Monza, Interlagos and Abu Dhabi is not a combination I'd like to be running on one engine.

But I think Ferrari have the situation well managed, I think Fernando will be okay.

I'm sure he'd prefer to be Webber though, if his engine is fine post-Korea.

#48 search

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 13:39

Any prove? James Allen have other ideas and he has more insides than both of us...


I just wanted do show another possible scenario, I did not read the article be James Allen before - I think he is right and Alonso will use that engine from Monza for the last two races

Edited by search, 27 October 2010 - 13:40.


#49 T-Mobile

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 13:41

Cant argue with that .. but they can easily make the title fight less of a gamble on the machinery and more about the driver skill.

Clearly Vettel's side took a gamble on that engine by missing out the FP3 totally. we dont want people sitting out of sessions because they dont have engines? Do we?


Exactly. I am surprised more people don't discuss increasing the engine allocations. Yes, Formula 1 has always had engine blowups just as any other racing series. Yes, they need some kind of regulation, but as flyer121 pointed out, we don't really want to see drivers conserving and sitting out sessions for fear of an engine blow up. Based on what happened this year, it seems plausible that 10 engines could make things a bit safer. Then again, who is to say that next year it will only take 2 races to toast an engine.

I think it is certainly an area for discussion. I myself feel like a hypocrite, because I am excited that Alonso has the lead (partly due to an engine failure) yet I am nervous that an engine failure could just as well cost him the championship.

#50 flyer121

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 16:39

Exactly. I am surprised more people don't discuss increasing the engine allocations. Yes, Formula 1 has always had engine blowups just as any other racing series. Yes, they need some kind of regulation, but as flyer121 pointed out, we don't really want to see drivers conserving and sitting out sessions for fear of an engine blow up. Based on what happened this year, it seems plausible that 10 engines could make things a bit safer. Then again, who is to say that next year it will only take 2 races to toast an engine.

I think it is certainly an area for discussion. I myself feel like a hypocrite, because I am excited that Alonso has the lead (partly due to an engine failure) yet I am nervous that an engine failure could just as well cost him the championship.


Its all these uncertainties and small factors that make me mad at F1 and its governance.

Safety car lottery and lack of proper regs regarding changing weather conditions are another of my pet peeves.

Drivers can gain absurd advantages simply due to the fact that there is only one pit stop point for each team and you may need to queue or risk another lap on the wrong type of tyres.

Make it less of a lottery and let the best guys win.