119 replies to this topic

[blizzzzard]

Bahrain (13), Australia (25), Korea (25). He has no luck this year. Didn't profit from others misfortunes. Unlike Webber and Alonso. Alonso had 5 wins, only 2 (arguably 1) won on merit. Vettel should lead the WDC with around 50 points by now.

[Cplus]

Bahrain (13), Australia (25), Korea (25). He has no luck this year. Didn't profit from others misfortunes. Unlike Webber and Alonso. Alonso had 5 wins, only 2 (arguably 1) won on merit. Vettel should lead the WDC with around 50 points by now.

what is your point exactly?

[Tenmantaylor]

Turkey and Spa. True he's had the most reliability issues but he's also probably lost most points through his own fault out of the top drivers also so can't blame the reliability just yet.

[blizzzzard]

Turkey and Spa. True he's had the most reliability issues but he's also probably lost most points through his own fault out of the top drivers also so can't blame the reliability just yet.

Turkey was partly Webber's fault. Webber also had his Australia, Valencia, Korea. Alonso had a terrible and error prone first half. This is not an excuse. Without bad luck, Vettel would lead the WDC comfortably.

[eoin]

Bahrain (13), Australia (25), Korea (25). He has no luck this year. Didn't profit from others misfortunes. Unlike Webber and Alonso. Alonso had 5 wins, only 2 (arguably 1) won on merit. Vettel should lead the WDC with around 50 points by now.

It's worse than that. Alonso gained 7 from both Bahrain and Korea and 2(?) points in Oz. I also believe that Vettel was running ahead of Alonso when he had brake trouble in Barcelona which would be another 6 point swing. So he has lost ~85 points to alonso due to reliability.

[fatfreddie]

what is your point exactly?

[apoka]

http://www.sport1.de has a list of problems with a total of 168 points lost (main sources are: reliability, start problems, team strategy, mistakes by Vettel - here is an incomplete list). Of course, no one had a perfect season, but 168 points is a lot. It's also true that he could still lead the WDC without his own mistakes, but the same can be said for Hamilton or Webber. Some people in the Webber vs. Vettel thread calculated that he would lead Webber by 25 points (and 50 points after Korea) even with all his mistakes if he didn't have reliability issues.

[Cplus]

mate - there is atleast 5 threads covering this already. why do we need another???

[Jamelon]

Put it this way, Alonso would have won the championship with that car already...but Vettel is almost certainly not going to do it.

That's the difference.

[jee]

If they had built the car more reliable it may not have been as fast as it is.

[Henrytheeigth]

Turkey was partly Webber's fault.

Only around Thanksgiving mate....

[GregAU]

This is a great thread and completely exposes that if Vettel wasnt a curb jumping, fastest lap craving, car wrecking idiot, he'd be in front by 50 points.

Shame about the spark plug though thats just plain bad luck.

Thanks

[blizzzzard]

Put it this way, Alonso would have won the championship with that car already...but Vettel is almost certainly not going to do it.

That's the difference.

What about Alonso's costy mistakes in China, Monaco, Turkey, Britain and Belgium?

[Callahan]

Bahrain (13), Australia (25), Korea (25). He has no luck this year. Didn't profit from others misfortunes. Unlike Webber and Alonso. Alonso had 5 wins, only 2 (arguably 1) won on merit. Vettel should lead the WDC with around 50 points by now.

YAWN

[apoka]

This is a great thread and completely exposes that if Vettel wasnt a curb jumping, fastest lap craving, car wrecking idiot, he'd be in front by 50 points.

There is no need to insult drivers in this forum.

[GregAU]

There is no need to insult drivers in this forum.

To call that an insult is to close the door on debate.
He has driven like an idiot on at least 2 occasions this season and neither time did he take responsibility.


Turning into Webber he (and the team) blamed Webber. Ramming Button he blamed a wet (which was dry) track.

Both of those occasions involved wrecked cars....hence car wrecking idiot, unless you condider curb jumper and fast lap craver insults. If so then god help us.

Edited by GregAU, 25 October 2010 - 09:43.

[iotar]

[Everything about it has been said already (luck, dominant car, car and team development focused on him; inability to convert poles into points, awful mistakes, bad starts, weak race craft - name one good race when he didn't start from the pole or lead after first corner, messy overtaking).]

But why out of the four Renault drivers only Vettel has major problem with engines?
Disclaimer: I'm not calling him "car breaker" or implying anything.
I just wonder if there's some other explanation: driving style? some more aggressive settings? something to do with blown diffuser concept? Not this particular details but something similar:

Vettel has admitted he's felt much more comfortable in the car since new software was installed to enable smoother power delivery through the double diffuser to accelerate out of corners.
It means that Webber has lost the little edge over his team-mate that he'd previously enjoyed when it was more driver-reliant.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...mit-it-how.html

It happened again late in the race. And yes I know - he had less engines so the strain on them might have been higher but still.

It was the same last season - I remember even Renault engine department had to comment on that.

[dau]

http://www.f1fanatic...pionship-by-59/

[wrighty]

There is no need to insult drivers in this forum.

Guess (within the context that your reply is applicable to) you never saw the countless 'kimi is a car-breaker' threads then? The suggestion that Vettel rags his car to pieces may have some validity but i'm not sure it's the be-all-and-end-all of his travails of this season....yesterday's blow up (for instance) points to a mechanical failure rather than abuse as such, but with the pace that the RBRs have had this season its unfortunate for him (and Webber of course) that reliability hasn't been their strongest asset....on such details are champions made

[klyster]

That speaks volumes if accurate.

Edited by klyster, 25 October 2010 - 10:06.

[JosTheBoss]

cry me a river

[topical]

Bahrain (13), Australia (25), Korea (25). He has no luck this year. Didn't profit from others misfortunes. Unlike Webber and Alonso. Alonso had 5 wins, only 2 (arguably 1) won on merit. Vettel should lead the WDC with around 50 points by now.

FFS is it really necessary to start another thread about this? It's already been discussed in about ten other threads...

[JosTheBoss]

There is no need to insult drivers in this forum.

hang about, you do realise you're on the Autosport forum?

[Lights]

How much points did he gain by having an awesome car?

[Muppetmad]

How much points did he gain by having an awesome car?

Precisely that. Vettel has had some bad luck, yes, but he has got the best car on the grid so frankly I'd say Vettel still has little excuse for not being ahead.

Edited by Muppetmad, 25 October 2010 - 10:13.

[JosTheBoss]

How much points did he gain by having an awesome car?

+1, good point.

I used to bemoan Webber's endless bad luck, but if he doesnt finish a race now I more easily accept and get over it. Why?

Well when he was driving those shitbox Jags & Williams (and the 2007 Red Bull!) all I wished for was that he'd get a shot in a topline car before his F1 time was up. I just wanted him to get a win - somehow - and not be another Chris Amon. For Webber to retire winless, I feel would have been a great shame, mostly because the Australian public at large would have always viewed someone like Mark as a failure, whilst they laud massive underachievers like Craig Lowndes - logic be damned. Well he got that topline car and got a win, and now has 6 of them . WDC or not, at the least he'll always be referred to as a Grand Prix Winner, and better drivers than Mark have retired without a win.

You see, whilst i'd like Mark to win the WDC as it's *the next level*, i'm not greedy and I can live with it if he doesnt win it.

Whether Mark can do the same, is another thing altogether.


Getting back to the above point, Vettel fans should get a bit of perspective. He's 22, he'll get over it, and he'll get another shot. Two-thousand and ten just didnt pan out the way he hoped.

Edited by JosTheBoss, 25 October 2010 - 10:32.

[Zava]

This is a great thread and completely exposes that if Vettel wasnt a curb jumping, fastest lap craving, car wrecking idiot, he'd be in front by 50 points.

Shame about the spark plug though thats just plain bad luck.

Thanks

oh come on, is it the Kimi kills engines legend all over again?
some motor engineer from f1 said a long ago (related to Kimi's engine faults) "if a pilot can kill an engine by going fast with it, it is not the pilot's fault" (or sg like that)


also: yeah, Vettel also had his own mistakes. but so did Webber, Alonso, and Hamilton (Ham a bit better than the others though). they're about equal in that. the part that they're damn not equal, is the reliability issues. Hamilton and especially Vettel lost a lot more, compared to Alonso and Webber. the latter 2 had lost 10 points MAXIMUM, while Ham lost ~40, Vettel ~65 (not accurate numbers, just order of magnitude)
also I'm pretty sure, Vettel haven't gained a single place by luck this year (except monza) can you tell that according to f.e. Alonso?

Edited by Zava, 25 October 2010 - 10:36.

[Zava]

That speaks volumes if accurate.

that was before Korea. add 18 to Webbo's own mistake column, and add 25 to Vettel reliability.
and of course, 10 to Alonso's luck... just a quick one: what position would he have in the pilot's standings, if we would only count the points he got by luck? would he be top10?

[JosTheBoss]

Webber used to be referred to as a carbreaker ad nauseum.... until his cars suddenly magically became reliable!

(Thank you Geoff Willis)

Maybe Seb's a carbreaker......

[Gareth]

How much points did he gain by having an awesome car?

Completely agree. Reliability is all part of the overall package of a car. You take the rough with the smooth.

I think comparing reliability and points dropped when comparing team mates is a fair concept: they are both in the same machinery, if one is having more reliability problems than the other then I think it is fair to say that relative to their team mate they have been unlucky. But vs any other rivals I don't think it works.

[orndorf]

If Mansell had reliable cars he would be 5xWDC,these things happen,thread has no point.

[muelte]

Maybe if the RB was more reliable (so probably slower) he wouldn´t have been in position to win as many points... Part of the game, man

[iotar]

That speaks volumes if accurate.

It seldom is.
Does it include for example situations like Monza - engine failure in P3 for Webber - no time for set up work for qualifying. Is it important? Yes? How much? Impossible to say. Does it cost certain amount of points? No, not included. There's more to reliability than just spectacular engine failures. Massa's and Alonso's engine change in Bahrain (?) springs to mind, too. It affects the whole season but can't be measured in points. Apart from that reliability is a part of the car package.

[JosTheBoss]

I also think the Vettel fans should take into account that it's largely as a result of Mark's setup work that Seb has found himself in the position he's in over the past 2 years.

I'd like to see Seb setting up his car, see how far he gets on his own frankly. Webber was setting up his team's cars by his second year, his teammates of course were those noted F1 stars Pizzonia and Wilson....

[dau]

It seldom is.
Does it include for example situations like Monza - engine failure in P3 for Webber - no time for set up work for qualifying. Is it important? Yes? How much? Impossible to say. Does it cost certain amount of points? No, not included. There's more to reliability than just spectacular engine failures. Massa's and Alonso's engine change in Bahrain (?) springs to mind, too. It affects the whole season but can't be measured in points. Apart from that reliability is a part of the car package.

You can find the raw data and methodology used here:

http://www.f1fanatic...pionship-by-59/

[juandiego]

It's seems that Adrian Newey is not fond of putting enough eggs in the reliability basket and puts too many in the speed-design one. That's his choice and he and RBR have to deal with its consequences for good an for bad.

Edited by juandiego, 25 October 2010 - 12:23.

[e34]

I can understand how to adjust results when the incident takes place at the end of the race. But, leaving aside the fact that in these specific instances f1fanatics gave the benefit of the doubt both to Alonso and Hamilton for their incidents in Melbourne and Singapore, how would you assign points to any of those incidents (or to any other that happens when there is still a considerable chunk of the GP to be raced)? Did Alonso lost points (how many)?

To refresh things, Alonso was third in the grid. He and Button had an incident at the beginning, and Alonso dropped to 18th position. He ended the race 4th, behind Massa.

And another thing. Everybody takes for granted that Vettel would have won in Bahrein, or yesterday, but he could have made a mistake, or Alonso could have had stronger car/tyres at the end of the race.

The above are just examples; I don't mean that calculations are deliberately done to cast a bad ligth on Alonso. My intention is only to highlight that these calculations cannot be taken as an exact science. They can be done, plausibly, for certain races/incidents, but trying to calculate this thing over a whole season takes you into a parallel dimension.

[postajegenye]

Vettel: 63 points lost by the unreliability of the car (or not 63, maybe more, it's not my point)

but also

Vettel: many points won by the speed of the car

You know, a racing car has to be fast AND reliable. Those two points make out the balance, and you have to find the right balance.

Should we open a thread titled "Kubica: x points lost by speed problems" and argue that that Kubica should lead the WDC by x points if Renault was faster...?

[Watkins74]

This is representative of the new generation of F1 fans, the reliability is so good in modern F1 they can't comprehend mechanical failure.

[DILLIGAF]

How much points did he gain by having an awesome car?

Give this man a cigar!!

[Tombstone]

This is representative of the new generation of F1 fans, the reliability is so good in modern F1 they can't comprehend mechanical failure.

Yup, 'bout sums up my take on new fans too.

Hamilton has dnf'd two races due to mechanical issues, and dropped back in a third for another.

I haven't bothered counting the others, but these things have a habit of evening out, in one year or over several.

Edited by Tombstone, 25 October 2010 - 15:09.

[DEVO]

Vettel has himself to blame for some and bad luck for others. Red Bull only have themselves to blame as a whole. To a large degree it was up to them to lose the championship...and if they are not careful they will lose the constructor championship.

2 years in a row where they had the best and lost it with no one else to blame. Let's see if they can recover with 2 races to go.

[PNSD]

Vettels lost most points through reliability compared to others?

And what?

Thats F1, it is what it is.

If he wants a shoulder to cry on i bet Kimi will provide ;-)

[Mary Popsins]

% Laps Complete, season 2010:

Ferrari: 96.9
Red Bull 92.6
Mercedes 92.5
McLaren 88.3
Force India 85.7

For a complete table of FAIL (engines, other parts or incident, source (vivaf1.com).

[ZakspeedYakspeed]

Seb DNF's 2007 to Sunday...60 Races, 15 DNF's, 8 DNF's were not directly his fault (ie. Collisions, Spins, etc), 7 DNF's were

2007 Belgium Spa Francorchamps DNF Steering
2007 Japan Fuji DNF Collision
2007 Brazil Interlagos DNF Hydraulics
2008 Australia Albert Park DNF Collision
2008 Malaysia Sepang DNF Engine
2008 Bahrain Sakhir DNF Collision
2008 Spain Barcelona DNF Collision
2008 Britain Silverstone DNF Spun Off
2008 Hungary Hungaroring DNF Overheating
2009 Monaco Monte Carlo DNF Spun Off
2009 Hungary Hungaroring DNF Suspension
2009 Europe Valencia-S DNF Engine
2010 Australia Albert Park DNF Wheel
2010 Turkey Istanbul Park DNF Collision
2010 Korea Yeongam DNF Engine


Contrast Webber, same period...61 Races, 6 DNF's, 1 DNF were not directly his fault (ie. Collisions, Spins, etc), 5 DNF's were

2007 Spain Barcelona DNF Hydraulics
2007 Japan Fuji DNF Collision (mounted by SV behind safety car)
2008 Australia Albert Park DNF Collision
2009 Italy Monza DNF Collision
2010 Europe  Valencia-S  DNF Collision
2010 Korea Yeongam DNF Spun Off


IMHO, Webber is easier on his machinery than Vettel...and Seb will learn how to do that too, once he matures a little more...

Edited by ZakspeedYakspeed, 25 October 2010 - 17:57.

[JosTheBoss]

^ Sorry to take umbrage, but how were 5 of 6 Webber's fault???

I can see 3 that clearly werent Webber's fault - Spain 07, Japan 07, Australia 08. Arguably Italy 2009 wasnt his fault either given he was nudged into a spin by Kubica, but i'll let that one slide as culpability is arguable.

Go and have a look at Webber's career finish record pre-07, it's interesting reading and certainly makes Vettel's misfortune look a bit trifling.

[Villes Gilleneuve]

Give this man a cigar!!

two cigars.

[Dolph]

If they had built the car more reliable it may not have been as fast as it is.

So that's why Webber is slower than Vettel

[Muppetmad]

Arguably Italy 2009 wasnt his fault either given he was nudged into a spin by Kubica, but i'll let that one slide as culpability is arguable.

Yes, it was a weird incident - it was almost identical to Hamilton and Massa this year at the same corner, except there was the opposite outcome in each. I have to say though that Webber's nudging off was somewhat karma for pushing Kubica onto the grass at the start. This can be seen here.

[Menace]

Bahrain (13), Australia (25), Korea (25). He has no luck this year. Didn't profit from others misfortunes. Unlike Webber and Alonso. Alonso had 5 wins, only 2 (arguably 1) won on merit. Vettel should lead the WDC with around 50 points by now.

It's the Newey mobile curse! Fast but fragile, Kimi and Mika had their shares of bad luck and reliability problems too.

Vettel is good, his time will come! Now put all the eggs in Webber's basket and salvage the WDC for one of the drivers!