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Berger: Webber tried to take out championship rival


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#1 onemoresolo

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 13:34

Gerhard Berger has accused Mark Webber of wanting to take out a championship rival after crashing in Sunday's Korean Grand Prix.

Australian Webber, who at the time was leading the world championship by 14 points, spun on a wet kerb whilst running second at Yeongam and struck the wall.

But his Red Bull then rolled back across the circuit, collecting the Mercedes of Nico Rosberg.

"I don't understand why Webber didn't hit the brakes," said Rosberg. "It was crazy to roll back across the track like that."

Former Grand Prix winner Berger said on Monday: "He could have hit the brakes and stopped the car at the wall.

"He took out Rosberg, but it was the wrong one. I think in his mind he would have preferred Alonso or Hamilton," the former Ferrari and McLaren driver told Austrian Servus TV.

Asked to clarify whether he thinks Webber's move was deliberate, Berger - a former co-owner of the second Red Bull team Toro Rosso - added: "Yes, I think that's very clear.

"He goes off and he knows it's over. In this moment you're frustrated and a thousand thoughts go through your head.

"It's very obvious, you can see his wheels are not locked up. Perhaps he had a brake problem, but I don't think so."


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I must admit, I did think it was incredibly dangerous the way he let his car roll backwards across the track. I didn't think much more of it, but Berger's comments make a lot of sense. Did Webber deliberately try and take out a rival after his crash?

Apologies if this has already been mentioned, I hadn't spotted it on the forums.


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#2 pliskinrob

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 13:42

It's a tricky one as many people percieve Webber as a volatile racer

I admit that when I saw it I did think he could have done better to control the car after he got the wheel up on the curve, however thats just my oppinion.

Edited by pliskinrob, 26 October 2010 - 13:42.


#3 Lifew12

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 13:43

Tell you what, you try hitting a wall at that speed and see if slamming the breaks on at the point of impact stops the car dead. I bet you it doesn't.

#4 Murphster

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 13:43

Motorsport Total

I must admit, I did think it was incredibly dangerous the way he let his car roll backwards across the track. I didn't think much more of it, but Berger's comments make a lot of sense. Did Webber deliberately try and take out a rival after his crash?

Apologies if this has already been mentioned, I hadn't spotted it on the forums.


Honestly, and I do mean honestly, My initial reaction to what happened was that it seemed very strange indeed. The thought did cross my mind I must admit, if only for a fleeting moment. I quickly put it out my mind however and have not thought about since nor watched the incident again.

It is a very harsh thing to accuse any driver of doing, but I am actually surprised nobody else had come out and said it yet. Even if for a split second, I did have the impression that something was odd about it.

Edited by Murphster, 26 October 2010 - 13:44.


#5 JosTheBoss

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 13:43

Oh come on, he was on three wheels and one of them wasnt even touching the ground! :rolleyes:

#6 Murphster

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 13:45

Tell you what, you try hitting a wall at that speed and see if slamming the breaks on at the point of impact stops the car dead. I bet you it doesn't.


Are you talking to Gerhard Berger there?

Edited by Murphster, 26 October 2010 - 13:45.


#7 TurboF1

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 13:45

to be honest, i watched that clip numeroustimes on youtube (with quite a bit of glee considering australia and singapore) and the more i watched it, the more it looked like he did it deliberately... i didnt want to suggest such a thing but im glad someone else in the know that thought the same thing.

#8 Ramses1348

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 13:47

Oh come on, he was on three wheels and one of them wasnt even touching the ground! :rolleyes:


come on webber tried to do the same as hamilton did in canada 2008, but he is not as good as hamilton so he hit the wrong car (and will lose the championship) :o

Edited by Ramses1348, 26 October 2010 - 13:50.


#9 Massa_f1

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 13:48

Oh what rubbish his car spun and hit the wall its not just going to stop just like that. Rosberg also thinks Webber did it on purpose.


Idiots. Next time they hit a wall in the wet with a wheel hanging off lets see if there car is able to be controlled.

Edited by Massa_f1, 26 October 2010 - 13:48.


#10 hotstickyslick

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 13:50

Looking at it again... I think I'm inlcined to agree that he at least hoped he would take out a championship rival. He could've at least turned the wheel left after hitting the wall to keep the car off the racing line as only his left rear suspension was broken.

#11 Murphster

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 13:51

Oh what rubbish his car spun and hit the wall its not just going to stop just like that. Rosberg also thinks Webber did it on purpose.


Idiots. Next time they hit a wall in the wet with a wheel hanging off lets see if there car is able to be controlled.


But that is exactly the point Berger is making! He is suggesting that the car would have indeed stopped had Webber chosen to use his brakes. For some reason he decided rolling back across the track was the better idea.

* Berger's words not mine.

#12 F1 Tor.

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 13:53

The suggestion he did it on purpose seems a bit silly to me. Who in their right mind would purposely roll into traffic and have F1 cars come screaming at them and possibly t-bone them? He might have had a brain fade and forgot, but on purpose? That's some serious roulette he's playing and to suggest Mark would intentionally take someone off like that with potentially serious consequences for both drivers, in those conditions, is a bit irresponsible on Berger's part imo.

#13 JosTheBoss

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 13:53

How anyone can think that Webber would deliberately put himself in danger by voluntarily rolling back onto the racing line.... Webber's not that kind of guy for a start.

#14 hunnylander

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 13:54

Oh come on, he was on three wheels and one of them wasnt even touching the ground! :rolleyes:

Did you see Buemi turning the steering wheel, when he had no front wheels already?

All the wheels should have been blocked on Webber's car (if the brakes worked)!

Edited by hunnylander, 26 October 2010 - 13:55.


#15 engel

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 13:56

Oh what rubbish his car spun and hit the wall its not just going to stop just like that. Rosberg also thinks Webber did it on purpose.


Idiots. Next time they hit a wall in the wet with a wheel hanging off lets see if there car is able to be controlled.



Racecraft 101 says that when your car is spinning you brake to make your car's trajectory predictable to drivers following you.

It's actually quite funny, Adrian Newey had a similar incident in a Ginetta a couple of months ago ( ) and the criticism was precisely that .. he should have braked when his car was spinning and the collision would have been avoided.

#16 simplyfast

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 13:57

perhaps you should also think of how many other options are available.
he had his hit, there was no way he would have been able to stop the car before it was rolling backwards at which point you have to decide is it safer to stop your car in the middle of the race track or let it carry on rolling backwards and hope to get it back off the track?
Or perhaps he did it deliberately after all we have seen his eagerness to hit other leading drivers similar to what shoemuncher used to do.
Or perhaps he was dazed by the crash and did not have the were withal to make any decision in the few seconds that it took from having the accident to collecting NR.
Or something else happened like his brakes failed.
Many options only MW will know if any of them are correct or not.

Joke
I hope he is not going down the Alonso route of willing to cheat to win but he is from Australia and they do have a history of breaking the rules.
/joke

#17 kosmos

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 13:59

This is beyond believable, the chances to get hurt if one car hit him in the right place when he was coming back to the tarmac were to high. So Webber thought: "Now that I'm out, let's see if I can take out Alonso or Lewis and they don't send me to the hospital in the process", yeah right.

Edited by kosmos, 26 October 2010 - 14:00.


#18 cheapracer

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 14:00

Yeah it's best to present the side of your car where the minimal protection is to cars coming at you at 120mph....

Especially the way the radiator and oil cooler with their red hot fluids will burst all over you to make sure you get the fans sympathy while you die in agony over a few days.

Yeah, I'm sure "Martyr Mark" did it on purpose.

oh and what a coincidence, "Berger" and "B grade driver" both start with "B".

#19 artista

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 14:01

I will not try to guess if Webber did it on purpose or not, I don’t have the smallest idea, I don’t know to which extent the car was really damaged. I suppose the team knows, though.

There's something that surprises me of that piece of news. It is the channel where Berger is supposed to have made those statements. Servus TV belongs to Dietrich Mateschitz, and nobody will say anything there Red Bull doesn’t agree with. In other words, Berger saying there Webber took Rosberg with him on purpose is almost the same thing as Red Bull Racing saying Webber did it on purpose.

Edited by artista, 26 October 2010 - 14:02.


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#20 Murphster

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 14:01

This is beyond believable, the chances to get hurt if one car hit him in the right place when he was coming back to the tarmac were to high. So Webber thought: "Now that I'm out, let's see if I can take out Alonso or Lewis and they don't send me to the hospital in the process", yeah right.


There is your faulty logic right there.

#21 dau

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 14:04

I'm pretty sure i saw at least one of his front wheels locked up. Can only find crappy onboards on Youtube where i can't see anything though.

I thought the impact damaged his brake system, so he couldn't get any pressure in there. If he didn't even try to brake, it should show on the telemetry.

Edited by dau, 26 October 2010 - 14:06.


#22 FPV GTHO

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 14:04

Heres some history: Webber crashed out at Interlagos '03 and was collected by Alonso in a huge impact. Do people think that was an experience Webber wanted to repeat? Perhaps Webber did have those thoughts cross his mind, but its a pretty big call to make to outwardly say they tried to cause a crash on purpose.

#23 simplyfast

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 14:08

Yeah it's best to present the side of your car where the minimal protection is to cars coming at you at 120mph....

Especially the way the radiator and oil cooler with their red hot fluids will burst all over you to make sure you get the fans sympathy while you die in agony over a few days.

Yeah, I'm sure "Martyr Mark" did it on purpose.

oh and what a coincidence, "Berger" and "B grade driver" both start with "B".


there is no way the fluids will burst over you in the way you claim infact that looks like the most feeble attempt to undermine an argument in a long time.
Incase you dont realise if he was hit from the side he would move forwards away from the fluids which would tend to want to stay static and hence would tend to hit the guy you hit him.
But even if they did hit him you tend to ignore things like their race gear etc which ensure nothing of what you claimed would happen and lets not even start about the side impact tests which ensure your nightmare is nothing more than fiction dressed up to try to justify nothing
FYI the most dangerous place to be hit would be full frontal due to one car climbing over the other and guess what sits up high that the car would hit if it did not rise up over the tyres yup the drivers head.

#24 engel

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 14:09

perhaps you should also think of how many other options are available.
he had his hit, there was no way he would have been able to stop the car before it was rolling backwards at which point you have to decide is it safer to stop your car in the middle of the race track or let it carry on rolling backwards and hope to get it back off the track?



I don't know if you are responding to me specifically but anyways ... the point is that drivers following you should be able to estimate the trajectory your car is/will be traveling in, that's why I said the convention is you brake when your car is spinning. And yeah a stationary car in the middle of the road is "safer" (so long as you can see it) than an out of control car traveling along an unpredictable trajectory at an unpredictable speed, precisely because the drivers behind can take steps to avoid the stationary car, whereas the moving car can trap them (like it happened to Rosberg) if they can't accurately predict what it will do.

#25 hotstickyslick

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 14:09

To those saying Webber wouldn't have risked it, all I have to say is when you look at the relatively slow speeds the cars were doing in that section in the wet... perhaps you should think again.

#26 dau

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 14:10

Heres some history: Webber crashed out at Interlagos '03 and was collected by Alonso in a huge impact. Do people think that was an experience Webber wanted to repeat? Perhaps Webber did have those thoughts cross his mind, but its a pretty big call to make to outwardly say they tried to cause a crash on purpose.


Alonso just hit Webber's wheel back then.


Edited by dau, 26 October 2010 - 14:11.


#27 cheapracer

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 14:12

In other words, Berger saying there Webber took Rosberg with him on purpose is almost the same thing as Red Bull Racing saying Webber did it on purpose.


Understandable, your confusion, Webber is "AUSTRALIAN" not "AUSTRIAN"

Vettle is the adopted Austrian.


#28 Ferrari2183

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 14:15

Only the usual suspects believe Webber deliberately tried to take a rival out. :down:

#29 jjcale

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 14:17

I admit it was my first thought when I saw MW rolling back.

I remembered Ross Stonefeld given Newey grief when Newey rolled backward on to the track after a crash in an amateur race... he said one of the first things you learn in racing is to secure the car in a crash and stop it moving back on the track - and its true. I was very surprised to see MW rolling back.

I am glad someone else raised it as I felt bad for thinking MW would do such a think... its reassuring to know it was not only me who had that thought.

#30 Jazza

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 14:18

I doubt he would risk a potentially life ending accident to take out a rival (especially since he had 4 rivals on track at the time, and even the greats have had trouble taking just one car out successfully)

As for rolling across the track, he really should have had his brakes on. The energy of the car was to slide along the wall, or at least parallel to it. The wheels being unlocked is what made it able to turn and then roll across the track. For that he can he held responsible.

#31 The Ragged Edge

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 14:18

Tell you what, you try hitting a wall at that speed and see if slamming the breaks on at the point of impact stops the car dead. I bet you it doesn't.


My first thought was that Webber could have done better, but I had no conspiracy in my head. After Bergers comments, it does beg the question, after Webber collided with the wall, why he didn't hit the brakes? It is a vary valid question.

#32 jjcale

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 14:19

Racecraft 101 says that when your car is spinning you brake to make your car's trajectory predictable to drivers following you.

It's actually quite funny, Adrian Newey had a similar incident in a Ginetta a couple of months ago ( ) and the criticism was precisely that .. he should have braked when his car was spinning and the collision would have been avoided.


This is what I was referring to above.

#33 undersquare

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 14:21

Hard to believe he did it on purpose, but Berger saying so makes me consider it after all.

There are elements of a pattern aren't there - after Brazil last year he said "Kimi would have done the same to me", after punting Lewis in Oz this year he said "at least I went down fighting" and in Singapore he said something like "my aim was to make sure Lewis didn't beat me and I achieved that".

So he doesn't shy away from contact does he? And he doesn't seem to draw much of a distinction between beating rivals by racing and beating them by crashing with them.

#34 jjcale

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 14:23

It should also be added to the mix that Berger is "friendly" with the austrian side of Redbull and this could be more mind games with MW.... most of us who thought MW was naughty did not dare so on a forum (hiding behind a username).. but Berger thinks it right to come out and say so publicly... that is also quite interesting.

#35 zarooch

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 14:24

Well... it is possible, but how would you prove it. Even if its proved no one will accept it he did. Its like Singapore 2008, no one thought he did it on purpose until the whistle blower.

Its useless to think either way. But its a fact webber is a dangerous driver.

#36 Lights

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 14:24

Never mind the brakes, why did he turn his steering wheel a 180 degrees after he hit the wall.

#37 sosidge

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 14:24

It's interesting that both Rosberg and Berger - drivers, not pundits - have come out with the same criticism.

At first I thought it could only be accidental - his car was a wreck once it hit the wall so how much control could he have really had - but maybe it looks different in a drivers eyes?

Although even I find it hard to believe that Webber's "if in doubt, take 'em out" attitude to overtaking would still apply when crashing.

#38 tze

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 14:26

If it was deliberate - I have to boo due to the danger to life caused; but admittedly would be amazed and applaud lightly such foresight and thinking whilst in a crash and spinning around a track.

That being said, given Webber's role previously as the driver safety committee chair, and his vocal expletives re saftefy, I doubt he did it on purpose

#39 The Ragged Edge

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 14:30

Never mind the brakes, why did he turn his steering wheel a 180 degrees after he hit the wall.


Spell it out for those not so clever. ;)


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#40 hotstickyslick

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 14:31

Looking at the onboard it looked like he didn't even attempt to turn the wheel back to the left and while rolling backwards he was looking towards the oncoming cars.

Hmm.

#41 Muppetmad

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 14:32

I doubt it was purposeful, I just think Webber incorrectly thought he could bring the car back under control. He's in a championship fighting position and the car slipped on the kerb - he probably thought he could catch it and then limit the damage to his title fight. In reality, I think that would have worked if it weren't for Rosberg's collision with him. It did look to me that he caught it just as Rosberg went into him.

Edited by Muppetmad, 26 October 2010 - 14:32.


#42 Fastcake

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 14:32

I seriously doubt that was on purpose. He hardly even has the time to think about hitting a rival, the whole crash was over in a few seconds. It's pretty much logical though, that if given the choice of hitting someone, Webber would rather he ended up taking out Alonso instead of Rosberg.

#43 Fox1

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 14:33

I have to admit that I looked at the replay after it happened and Berger's thought had crossed my mind but was dismissed. Massa was applying brake pressure when he was half asleep after impacting a spring at high speed. It could have been total brake failure or just mental error on Mark’s part, but I thought it was strange to see all three wheels turning freely after the initial impact.

#44 SRi130Brett

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 14:33

Well... it is possible, but how would you prove it. Even if its proved no one will accept it he did. Its like Singapore 2008, no one thought he did it on purpose until the whistle blower.

Its useless to think either way. But its a fact webber is a dangerous driver.


Lets be clear, none of the 24 drivers on that grid are 'Dangerous Drivers'. It is absolute lunacy to even hold the opinion that any of them are, let alone try to present it as a fact.

I saw it as calculated move, role the dice and see who else runs into him.



#45 onemoresolo

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 14:36

How anyone can think that Webber would deliberately put himself in danger by voluntarily rolling back onto the racing line.... Webber's not that kind of guy for a start.


In the heat of the moment out of character decisions can be made. Realising his chances of winning the world championship will have been damaged and the desperation in the moments that followed a major error and you can see why he may have made that snap decision.

I'm not saying that is what happened, but in the heat of the moment in such a desperate situation it would be easy to resort to such a tactic. Rationality goes out of the window.

Think Schumacher in Adelaide 94 - realized he made a error that cost him the title, made a snap decision to resort to taking another driver out to rectify it. He didn't go into the race to take Hill out, but when the situation arose he made the decision of s desperate man. Could well be a similar, but less blatant, situation here.

Edited by onemoresolo, 26 October 2010 - 14:39.


#46 PayasYouRace

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 14:37

Sounds like a typical cheeky comment from Berger, like his (and I paraphrase) 'In my time there were no cameras on us and we were hitting each other all round the back of the circuit' bit from a few months ago.

Once Webber was in the wall his control options were severly limited. That car was going that way anyway. Rosberg was just unlucky to pick the wrong side. In fact, considering that Webber's car was going from right to left, I'm surprised Rosberg went for the inside.

#47 artista

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 14:39

Understandable, your confusion, Webber is "AUSTRALIAN" not "AUSTRIAN"

Vettle is the adopted Austrian.


Oh, I know, don’t worry :) .

I just find funny the timing of this “Red Bull outing” about Webber being a dirty driver.

#48 MaxScelerate

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 14:41

"In a spin, both feet in". He most probably heard and practiced that since his formula-ford or whatever low formula days. - Whether he did it on purpose or just had some brain cramp I don't know butI was certain at the time that he'd be issued a penalty or blame. Seems not, good for him, but it left a not so brilliant impression on me.

#49 undersquare

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 14:41

I haven't seen the report of Nico saying Webber did it on purpose, anyone got a link?

#50 goingthedistance

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 14:42

Take out a championship rival? They were both in front of him.

Ridiculous.

IF he did have control, I think it was more a case of the guy having a few seconds of "OMG I just lost the championship" and drifting. He said himself it was a slow motion moment.

Mark is huge on safety, and was a director of the drivers association for a long time, he wouldn't deliberately endanger another's life. Accidentally, yes. But not deliberately.

What is interesting to me is that the German/Austrian Red Bull connection seem to have it in for him on a massive scale.

Edited by goingthedistance, 26 October 2010 - 14:45.