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Massa: Threat to Alonso's chances in Brazil?


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#1 zepunishment

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 15:49

Here's a theory for you: Massa faced great criticism in his home country for letting Alonso through in Germany...will he be fired up for his home gp and go for the win regardless of ferrari's wish for him to play a supporting role to alonso in order to perform in front of his home fans in Brazil? Self respect must be playing on his mind...he has the money to live comfortably should he part ways with scuderia and not be able to find a seat...perhaps Massa could be a factor in determining Alonso's WDC chances? He hasn't been on form this year we all know, but didn't Mansell say that driving at silverstone gave him a second a lap?

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#2 Lights

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 15:52

Not a chance Ferrari will allow that. Massa has given the lead to his teammate in Brazil before and he'd do the same again.

#3 Nustang70

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 15:53

Chances? 0%, regardless of whether Massa is faster than Alonso or not.

#4 flyer121

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 15:55

Here's a theory for you: Massa faced great criticism in his home country for letting Alonso through in Germany...will he be fired up for his home gp and go for the win regardless of ferrari's wish for him to play a supporting role to alonso in order to perform in front of his home fans in Brazil? Self respect must be playing on his mind...he has the money to live comfortably should he part ways with scuderia and not be able to find a seat...perhaps Massa could be a factor in determining Alonso's WDC chances? He hasn't been on form this year we all know, but didn't Mansell say that driving at silverstone gave him a second a lap?


If he has a stunt like that in mind, he has to be try that after the pits stops are done.

If he does a free agent before the pits , he will end up with one wheel nut short @ pitstops.



#5 Dunder

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 15:56

If Massa was ever going to refuse to comply with team orders it would have been at Hockenheim.
He is mathematically out of the championship now and has nothing to gain from the scenario you describe, not even pride.

#6 zepunishment

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 15:57

I'd counter and say that if massa were in a good position with alonso behind and massa didn't yield, what could ferrari do about it realistically? They can't turn down his engine remotely, perhaps they could screw his pitstop, but ferrari wouldn't be popular in brazil after that and if he's already pitted he's good to the end of the race.....then probably out of a job :p

#7 rm111

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 15:58

The only way ferrari will allow Massa to win is if Alonso isnt in contention for a podium finnish.

#8 Grundle

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 16:01

No threat because of "team tactics" , but it would be funny if some thing like this happened; " And Red bull lead 1-2, Massa is on for a podium spot with Hamilton 4th and Alonso 5th. Wait....is that Massa slowing down, he's got a problem, Hamilton has passed.....and Alonso, what bad luck for Felipe Massa. Oh, its seems the problem has rectified itself and Massa is back up to full running. The order is Webber from Vettel from Hamilton from Alonso from Massa" (This would be Spanish or dumba$s Legard commentary of course)

#9 zepunishment

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 16:02

I'd say pride would be an issue if he were leading....his legacy might be forever tarnished in his home country if he gave away the lead of his home gp.

#10 August

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 16:03

Phil definitely hopes there's a RBR or a Macca between him and Fred.

#11 simplyfast

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 16:04

Nice ideal and i really would love him to stick two fingers up to them in such a way but...
he has already proved money means more to him than winning by moving over whilst he could still have won the WDC so its clear he does not have the backbone to do it now when he has no chance of winning.
Mind you if Massa is ahead of alonso and has to give way again i am certain Ferrari will need to close up shop and run from Brazil with very much more security than they deserve.

Edited by simplyfast, 27 October 2010 - 16:08.


#12 flyer121

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 16:06

I'd say pride would be an issue if he were leading....his legacy might be forever tarnished in his home country if he gave away the lead of his home gp.


I agree with you ... but Massa is not brave enough to salvage it.

#13 CaptainJackSparrow

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 16:07

He'll do as he is trained. Some people take it and some don't and Massa proven that he's one of the one's that takes it.

#14 zepunishment

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 16:14

He'll do as he is trained. Some people take it and some don't and Massa proven that he's one of the one's that takes it.


thinking of things from massa's point of view it must be on his mind I would have thought.

#15 dau

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 16:16

He'll be too slow to even think about that.

#16 race addicted

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 16:21

I don't think so, dau. I wouldn't be surprised if he was a smidgen quicker, but he'll never go against his team like the OP speculates.
He let Räikkönen by when he had him beaten, but it was the right thing then, and it'll be the rigth thing this year too.

#17 The Ragged Edge

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 16:23

Te e long and the short of it is this. Massa not obeying Ferrari team orders, which subsequently lost Alonso the WDC, would result in his sacking. There will be no room for Massa's ego and he will comply with any Ferrari request. Secondly, Massa is to slow just like Button, to be of any help. When was the last time Massa or Button have taken any points of the 2 Red Bulls, Hamilton and Alonso on merit and not due to a DNF or driver error?

Edited by The Ragged Edge, 27 October 2010 - 16:24.


#18 SRi130Brett

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 16:28

Te e long and the short of it is this. Massa not obeying Ferrari team orders, which subsequently lost Alonso the WDC, would result in his sacking. There will be no room for Massa's ego and he will comply with any Ferrari request. Secondly, Massa is to slow just like Button, to be of any help. When was the last time Massa or Button have taken any points of the 2 Red Bulls, Hamilton and Alonso on merit and not due to a DNF or driver error?


Are you seriously comparing Button season to Massa's? Thats ridiculous.

And the answer to your question about the last time they took points of rivals fair and square as far as Button is concerned - Italy, what, 3/4 races ago? He could have beaten the lot and won had the team been sharper. Do you have short term memory loss?

As for Massa screwing over Alonso/Ferrari, it wont happen. Even if Massa already knew he was on his way out of Scuderia at the end of the year he wouldnt do it.

Edited by SRi130Brett, 27 October 2010 - 16:30.


#19 The Ragged Edge

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 16:44

Are you seriously comparing Button season to Massa's? Thats ridiculous.

And the answer to your question about the last time they took points of rivals fair and square as far as Button is concerned - Italy, what, 3/4 races ago? He could have beaten the lot and won had the team been sharper. Do you have short term memory loss?

As for Massa screwing over Alonso/Ferrari, it wont happen. Even if Massa already knew he was on his way out of Scuderia at the end of the year he wouldnt do it.


AND BEFORE THEN?


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#20 SRi130Brett

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 16:53

AND BEFORE THEN?


No, your claim was it was ages since Button or Massa had taken points of title rivals. You were wrong and I showed you, you cant just ask another question in an attempt to be correct. You were just plain wrong.

Button has only just dropped out of contention as a title contender. Massa never was. World of difference.

#21 as65p

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 17:33

If Massa was ever going to refuse to comply with team orders it would have been at Hockenheim.


:up: all that needs to be said.


#22 King Six

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 17:35

He'll do as he is trained. Some people take it and some don't and Massa proven that he's one of the one's that takes it.

Some don't, who don't? I'm not trying to wind you up, I genuinely don't know anyone that hasn't (that have been in such situations)

#23 Lights

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 17:42

AND BEFORE THEN?

Lol. Talked yourself into something?

#24 PNSD

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 17:43

If Massa were leading, id like him to grow a pair and win the GP he deserves to win.

He should say he had radio troubles or something.

Whether or not he will be in the posistion to offer Alonso help is another matter tbh.

I like Massa alot, so hope he is on hte pace in Brazil and victory is possible but I also hope that Ferrari will have enough respect to aks him to move over.


#25 Jackmancer

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 17:44

Massa could win Brazil with Alonso second if Webber has retired already. In that case, Alonso still wins the World Championship.

And Massa could still win ahead of Alonso if Webber is third or anything, but then he can drive for a different team I think next year :) maybe he is already planning that with Smedley though so could be good goodbye ;p

Edited by Jackmancer, 27 October 2010 - 17:45.


#26 Johnrambo

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 17:45

He let Räikkönen by when he had him beaten, but it was the right thing then, and it'll be the rigth thing this year too.


In what race did this happen because it was in Brazil 07. :confused:

#27 nomeg1

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 17:50

I just answer the question because I'm a nice kinda guy...: No.

#28 phil1993

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 17:56

If its Massa-Alonso-- then I suspect Massa might develop an 'engine problem' or a 'Felipe you need to save fuel'...

#29 rabbitleader

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 17:57

There's much speculation about what Massa might do or might not do but you only have to look at his team mate to realize what is possible!  ;)

#30 JustinCider

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 17:58

If he has a stunt like that in mind, he has to be try that after the pits stops are done.

If he does a free agent before the pits , he will end up with one wheel nut short @ pitstops.


My sentiments exactly. Either that or he'll be advised he's short of fuel and have to go into conservation mode.

"Felipe, you're going to run out of petrol, you need to drive around at 30mph, can you confirm you understand ?"

#31 dau

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 18:17

I don't think so, dau. I wouldn't be surprised if he was a smidgen quicker, but he'll never go against his team like the OP speculates.
He let Räikkönen by when he had him beaten, but it was the right thing then, and it'll be the rigth thing this year too.

He was pretty disappointing this season and i would be surprised if he could match Alonso in Brazil. But if it really comes to this, i agree with you - going renegade would certainly mean the end of his F1 career and i can't imagine him sacrificing another championship bid in 2011 to go down in glory at Interlagos.

#32 Sausage

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 18:45

I'd say pride would be an issue if he were leading....his legacy might be forever tarnished in his home country if he gave away the lead of his home gp.


He already did in that '07 lol.

He won't do it obviously but if he did I can only imagine him being even more ridiculed in Brazil. There is nothing to gain now for him, while there was at Hockenheim. He is a smart person, he knows he has to beat Alonso next year on his own merit. He has to up his game a lot compared to this year.

#33 race addicted

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 18:59

In what race did this happen because it was in Brazil 07. :confused:


That's what I mean - Massa was faster than Räikkönen, he had him beaten but gave up his position in the best interest of his team. Not playing the team game at that point would mean the end of his Ferrari-career.

He was pretty disappointing this season and i would be surprised if he could match Alonso in Brazil. But if it really comes to this, i agree with you - going renegade would certainly mean the end of his F1 career and i can't imagine him sacrificing another championship bid in 2011 to go down in glory at Interlagos.


Yes, he's had a below par season, but has generally been quicker relative to Alonso on the supersoft compound. That together with the inspiration he gets from his home-crowd makes me think he could be quicker than Alonso.

#34 tohru222

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 20:25

The best thing Mass can do is to win the race and take away points from the Red Bulls. Historically he always did very well at Interlagos, the question is really how competitive will Ferrari be.

#35 Obi Offiah

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 20:28

The only way ferrari will allow Massa to win is if Alonso isnt in contention for a podium finnish.

What if Massa is 1st and Alonso is 4th but needs 3rd for the championship. I would expect Massa to drop down to 4th behind Alonso, promoting Alonso to 3rd and the championship.

#36 Rob

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 20:47

He might not be actively considering it, but if he ended up leading with a few laps to go, he might have a change of heart.

#37 Richard T

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 20:52

The only way ferrari will allow Massa to win is if Alonso isnt in contention for a podium finnish.


...Or if Webber or Hamilton is in between them....

#38 Risil

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 21:05

Some don't, who don't? I'm not trying to wind you up, I genuinely don't know anyone that hasn't (that have been in such situations)


(Italian) Fabrizio seemed to do it at Imola last year in World Superbikes, when he could have moved over for his teammate who was in a championship battle. Mind you he appeared to have his team boss's approval.

AFAIK not many historical examples, not least because team orders favouring the slower driver are quite rare. :p

#39 cornermarker

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 21:24

My sentiments exactly. Either that or he'll be advised he's short of fuel and have to go into conservation mode.

"Felipe, you're going to run out of petrol, you need to drive around at 30mph, can you confirm you understand ?"


Here's a really cynical one: what if they really short-fuel him (to the point of perhaps not even being able to finish), so that he flies at the start of the race in a light car, passes everyone in the pits, but then has to slow and conserve, and back anyone ahead of Alonso into Alonso's grasp :)

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#40 beute

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 21:30

Not a chance Ferrari will allow that. Massa has given the lead to his teammate in Brazil before and he'd do the same again.



there was no way for him to win in 07 even if he wanted to "betray" his team, he lost it in the pits.
they just kept him inside for a little bit longer and that's it.

that said, we dont know if kimi could go faster... it was clear from the beginning that massa had to give him the position if it would win them the WDC.
and once the situation arose all kimi had to do was to relax and cruise the car to the finish line... no need to push and risk a car failure or driver error.

If massa is in front of alonso in brazil they will just do the same pit strategy, massa has no chance to win the title anyway.
the reason they didnt do it in the pits in Germany was because alonso could've actually DNF because of a DNF etc.

#41 Morbus

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 21:45

What I would like to see is Alonso beating Massa and then letting him through for the win at the last lap. THAT would be something, would bring credibility to his eventual WDC, and would make me reconsider that he is a cheater with not soul.

#42 inaki

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Posted 28 October 2010 - 04:57

Nobody is taking into account here that Massa winning in Interlagos can be in the best interest of Alonso and Ferrari. In this way Felipe will avoid that either Webbo or Vettel can get 25 points. The biggest difference in points is between 1st and 2nd position. f.ex if Webber is 2nd and Alonso 3rd, the gap will be reduced only in 3 points.

Edited by inaki, 28 October 2010 - 04:58.


#43 Murphster

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Posted 28 October 2010 - 05:10

What are Massa's chances of being at Ferrari next season anyway? I keep seeing talk of him being replaced at the end of the season If that is the case the what exactly has he got to lose?

Surely if he finds himself in a position to win at Interlagos then he is going to take it this time, He will be fully aware it might be his last chance depending on what team he finds himself at next.

Anyway, it is all academic, not eve worth worrying about. Hamilton is going to win, Alonso's engines will blow, Webber will take out the rest of the field one by one before driving into a tree.

#44 turssi

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 19:29

Not a chance Ferrari will allow that. Massa has given the lead to his teammate in Brazil before and he'd do the same again.


It doesn't need to come to that.

Should Massa be leading Webber with Alonso in third place, then it doesn't make sense for him to drop behind Alonso.

Massa, Webber, Alonso finish would leave Alonso with 246 points against Webber's 238.
Webber, Alonso, Massa finish would leave Alonso with 249 points against Webber's 245.

So the gap would be bigger with Massa finishing first!

#45 Smile17

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 20:13

Hamilton is going to win, Alonso's engines will blow, Webber will take out the rest of the field one by one before driving into a tree.


Wanna bet? It's impossible, are there any trees close to the circuit? It's more likely that hamilton will hit one then.. And how many engines will Alonso blow? Not more than one I guess..

Edited by Smile17, 29 October 2010 - 20:18.


#46 AvantiFer

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 20:25

Wanna bet? It's impossible, are there any trees close to the circuit? It's more likely that hamilton will hit one then.. And how many engines will Alonso blow? Not more than one I guess..

My crystal balls says engines will be okay as predicted by Ferrari...

#47 AvantiFer

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 20:27

What I would like to see is Alonso beating Massa and then letting him through for the win at the last lap. THAT would be something, would bring credibility to his eventual WDC, and would make me reconsider that he is a cheater with not soul.

I hope he won't do that, and I don't think he would anyway.

Massa had to let him throught because Alonso was faster. End of story. Had been otherwise Alonso would have had to let him thru.

Alonso owes nothing to Massa. Massa didn't make Alonso any favour, it was a team decision.


#48 Murphster

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 20:44

Wanna bet? It's impossible, are there any trees close to the circuit? It's more likely that hamilton will hit one then.. And how many engines will Alonso blow? Not more than one I guess..


Not more than one? So you guess Alonso's engine will blow then? So you agree with me?

Believe me, If there is a tree within 5k of Interlagos then Webber will find it.

#49 VicR

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 21:26

Would it be funny or sad seeing Felipe let Alonso through without a single word from the pitwall being said over the radio? How would you view a situation like that anywhere in the race? Do you understand what I'm trying to say? How would YOU tackle it when, let's say, that pass would result in Alonso taking the WDC right there and then?

Edited by VicR, 29 October 2010 - 21:26.


#50 Watkins74

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 21:29

Would it be funny or sad seeing Felipe let Alonso through without a single word from the pitwall being said over the radio? How would you view a situation like that anywhere in the race? Do you understand what I'm trying to say? How would YOU tackle it when, let's say, that pass would result in Alonso taking the WDC right there and then?

Read this forum a little, plenty of people want Button and Vettel to lay down for the team. I guess it's OK if they do it. Not funny or sad....it's a business.