88 replies to this topic

[keeppushingurep1]

Red Bull: No plans to cast Vettel in supporting role

[keeppushingurep1]

Red Bull: No plans to cast Vettel in supporting role

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/87776

[SRi130Brett]

Red Bull: No plans to cast Vettel in supporting role

get a subscription to Autosport, read the column and then understand why they have no choice but to do what they are doing.

or, dont get a subscription and carry on looking like you dont know what you are talking about.

Start of this week I was in the same camp as you. Reality is its not that simple.

[keeppushingurep1]

get a subscription to Autosport, read the column and then understand why they have no choice but to do what they are doing.

or, dont get a subscription and carry on looking like you dont know what you are talking about.

Start of this week I was in the same camp as you. Reality is its not that simple.

[King Six]

If Alonso is 1st and Webber is 5th and Vettle is 4th, I think you might see a switcheroo. Because in that situation, Alonso would be champion by the end of the race. Even if they switch Webber to 4th, it would be pretty hard for him to win the title in Abu Dhabi, but it wouldn't be impossible (unlike if it was Webber 5th)

It's highly unlikely that such a situation would exist in Brazil though. But it's possible.

[One]

RBR already did something to favor Vettel no matter what one say about this 'speculation'* Front wing.
So Yes it is obvious that RBR only wants to favor Vettel but not Webber.
And we all know it is coming from the owner(s) or his assistants.
It is like Eddie Irvine never allowed to win any championship for Ferrari before Schumacher.
Let us not be naif o say that Red Bull is a fair organization.

However if Red Bul should put Vettel on supportive role is another question tbe looked at.
The team can give better equipments to Webber and still let them both race, and so on.

[Kub]

RBR already did something to favor Vettel no matter what one say about this 'speculation'* Front wing.

This pretty much sums it up. They were ready to favor Vettel mid-season, but they won't help Webber when there are 2 races to go. Go figure.

What Horner says is pure bullshit.

[Madras]

If Alonso is 1st and Webber is 5th and Vettle is 4th, I think you might see a switcheroo. Because in that situation, Alonso would be champion by the end of the race. Even if they switch Webber to 4th, it would be pretty hard for him to win the title in Abu Dhabi, but it wouldn't be impossible (unlike if it was Webber 5th)

It's highly unlikely that such a situation would exist in Brazil though. But it's possible.

Alonso 1st, Massa 2nd. Hamilton 3rd...

or

Alonso 1st, Hamilton 2nd, Button 3rd

or

Alonso 1st, Hamilton 2nd, Kubica 3rd

[LukeM]

I really hope RBR lose the constructors as well.

[seltaeb]

I would love to see Mark Webber win the WDC and for Red Bull to lose the WCC. It'd be great if McLaren won the Constructors instead. All one has to do is think about how Red Bull would react if it were Vettel that were 11 points behind Alonso, and Webber a further 14 points behind Vettel. There is no doubt in my mind (nor should their be in yours) that Red Bull would favor Vettel early, often, and in public.

Red Bull management is so ridiculous these days, that even if Vettel was mathematically eliminated from the WDC, I think they would still avoid backing Webber publicly.

I know it is highly unlikely that Webber can (or would necessarily want to) get out of his 2011 Red Bull contract, but the most ideal outcome to the 2010 WDC in my wish is for Webber to win the WDC and take the #1 to Ferrari. I am really tired of Helmut Marko, Dietrich Mateschitz, Sebastian Vettel, and "the finger." Can't anyone teach Vettel to show #1 by showing the inside of his finger? He keeps showing "#1" as if he's flipping someone off.

[Muz Bee]

Can't believed that "fans" think teams nominating one of their drivers over another (until mathematically out of it) is good for our spectacle. It's also not good for the driver industry when you have a Ferrari type of thing dictating sporting outcomes.

From a pragmatic point of view (which seems to be the gist of most comments here) is that applying team orders in favour of Seb earlier in the season would not have gained them much. The unperdictability of F1 and racing in general means your nominated driver can encounter all manner of setbacks and their teammate actually becomes the stronger contender. This I believe has been a yo-yo reality at RedBull this year. I was hoping to see a Massa resurgence and an Alonso spate of retirements to make the disgrace of Hungary come back on the Scuderia, however it is now clear cut there. At RedBull it still isn't. I would still rate both their drivers as WDC challengers, especially if we don't have crazy weather again.

Finally I would say that despite Horner's comments a late call at Brazil could come into play. If Alonso leads from Seb and Mark, what would you do? No brainer really and he isn't stupid, that's the time to play the card.

[MotorsportARTIST]

[/IMG]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us


here we see Seb before the meeting where his support role was discussed, unfortunately no image survives after the suggestion of him becoming a number 2 as there were far too many dummies spat and teddys thrown from the pram.

[seltaeb]

They can say whatever they want publicly, but I would hope that by this point, they are privately reassuring Mark that they are going to give him the best possible shot to win the title.

As a team, you definitely want both cars up there, so if they can qualify 1-2 and Vettel wins the race with Webber 2nd, then that's great... but if Alonso sneaks in there, they're going to have to make the call at some point. I don't see why it's so difficult for Red Bull to make this choice. They've said from the beginning of 2010 that short of winning the WDC and WCC, this year would be considered a failure. Yet with 2 races to go, they're not publicly backing the driver that is in the best position to make that a reality. What I think is silly about this is that Vettel's young age and immense skill means that he is a certain champion in the future. Likely a multiple champion at that... so with 2 races to go, and a 33 or 34-year old in the latter half of his career only a couple drives short of history, why can't they back him?? Take the WDC and WCC, and get to work on Vettel's title challenge for 2011.

[slideways]

I don't agree Muz. I think that Webber has had every opportunity to lock down his #1 status this year. If he had cruised home to 5th last race it would be a no brainer. As well as that, by bringing the spotlight onto team orders earlier in the year he has forced them to take a neutral stance and not favour a driver.

They are now in the position where either driver could win, and if you look at the last few races maybe even lean towards Vettel when considering which driver will be able to pole and win the next two events:

Italy:
Vettel: Qualified 6th. Engine issues during race. Used strategy to jump Webber and finish 4th.
Webber: Qualified 4th then fluffed start. Passed Vettel when he had his problems, but ended up 6th.

Singapore
Vettel: Qualified second behind Alonso, followed him home to flag.
Webber: Qualified 5th. Crashes with Hamilton.

Japan
Vettel: Pole + win.
Webber: Qualified second behind Vettel, followed him home to flag.

Korea
Vettel: Pole. Engine failure while leading, DNF.
Webber: Qualified second behind Vettel, crashed out.

[Muz Bee]

I don't agree Muz. I think that Webber has had every opportunity to lock down his #1 status this year. If he had cruised home to 5th last race it would be a no brainer. As well as that, by bringing the spotlight onto team orders earlier in the year he has forced them to take a neutral stance and not favour a driver.

They are now in the position where either driver could win, and if you look at the last few races maybe even lean towards Vettel when considering which driver will be able to pole and win the next two events:

Italy:
Vettel: Qualified 6th. Engine issues during race. Used strategy to jump Webber and finish 4th.
Webber: Qualified 4th then fluffed start. Passed Vettel when he had his problems, but ended up 6th.

Singapore
Vettel: Qualified second behind Alonso, followed him home to flag.
Webber: Qualified 5th. Crashes with Hamilton.

Japan
Vettel: Pole + win.
Webber: Qualified second behind Vettel, followed him home to flag.

Korea
Vettel: Pole. Engine failure while leading, DNF.
Webber: Qualified second behind Vettel, crashed out.

Your points are well made and backed up. My point was more about the unpredictability of racing where the guy you nobbled for his teammate in one race suddenly drops the ball and number 2 looks better than a month ago. In the era of having two strong drivers in a strong team as McLaren have favoured this is quite likely to happen. The other point is the total unfairness on the career opportunities of top drivers. Finally uis the fans are best served by having an open competition until the end is nigh when common sense dictates driver 2 is out of it.

I think your point is strong if viewed with the benefit of hindsight which Horner didn't have. Which driver would you choose taking personal favourites out of equation? Either would be better off given the mythical crystal ball and judicious race fixing.

[Paul Prost]

Italy:
Vettel: Qualified 6th. Finished 4th.
Webber: Qualified 4th. Finished 6th.

Singapore
Vettel: Qualified 2nd. Finished 2nd.
Webber: Qualified 5th. Finished 3rd.

Japan
Vettel: Qualified 1st. Finished 1st.
Webber: Qualified 2nd, Finished 2nd.

Korea
Vettel: Qualified 1st. Engine failure while 1st.
Webber: Qualified 2nd. Crashed out while 2nd.

Fixed it for you. Not much in it is there?

[WhiteBlue]

Red Bull's position is perfectly understandable. They have two drivers who can win the championship. Vettel is qualifying better and is generally the faster driver. Unfortunately he drew the sh!t card on reliability and it helped the more experienced but slower driver to stay ahead in the points. It is an awkward situation for Red Bull to be in. They are responsible for the reliability problems that have robbed Vettel of more than 63 points. This is just for Bahrain, Australia and Korea where his car had mechanical failures while he was leading the race. There were another five failures that robbed him of many points as well. So if they tell this guy to support his slower team mate while he is still mathematically in the running for 2010 WDC they will piss him off big time and drive him to sign with a competing team that can give him a more reliable car. If you look at it from a teams perspective they would be mad to favor Webber before Vettel is out of it.

[kosmos]

I think is the wrong decission but at the same time understandable. both drivers can win the title, is not a like McLaren's situation where Button needs a miracle to win the title, Vettel has real chances. Looking forward to see Wbber's mental aproach to this last races.

[taran]

Its very easy to say a (young) driver should give up his chances at the title because he still has plenty of opportunity to win later in his career. In reality, a missed opportunity seldom comes knocking again. How many drivers never found themselves in with a chance again.

Gilles Villeneuve, Ronnie Peterson, Michele Alboreto etc.

It's one thing to accept such a deal when you are the #2 driver and benefitting from the experience of your team leader. Or when you are out of the championship hunt (as Lauda did for example in 1974). But when both drivers still can win, each should do go for it. You don't become a great driver when you are willing to accept a subservient role.

Berger was happy to be helpful. Senna would have walked away if asked by the team....that's the difference between a great driver and a good driver.

[RedBaron]

get a subscription to Autosport, read the column and then understand why they have no choice but to do what they are doing.

I have a subscription, I'll read the column.

Start of this week I was in the same camp as you. Reality is its not that simple.

I thought they should back Webber too, without question... now I've read the column I do completely switch that opinion. It definitely isn't a simple choice.

or, dont get a subscription and carry on looking like you dont know what you are talking about.

He's right...

[ViMaMo]

Webber and Alonso tie after Abu Dhabi.

[prty]

get a subscription to Autosport, read the column and then understand why they have no choice but to do what they are doing.

or, dont get a subscription and carry on looking like you dont know what you are talking about.

Does Autosport pay you?

[muelte]

This pretty much sums it up. They were ready to favor Vettel mid-season, but they won't help Webber when there are 2 races to go. Go figure.

What Horner says is pure bullshit.

+1

[pRy]

Vettel could still win the title and they do owe it to him to allow him a chance after the failure. Webber took himself out, so his stock within the team has dropped a little.

I think it's the only approach they could take.

[baddog]

After one driver qualifies and finishes behind 3 times in a row and bins it unforced in the most recent race where the other poles and drives impeccably to an almost certain win only to be let down by the car, you are going to ask the form guy to favour the one who is off form?

Its not likely is it?

[harrows]

Relying on Webber to pull his finger out would be even worse.

[Ferrari2183]

Red Bull have no choice but to decide team strategy on the fly depending on how the race in Brazil pans out. They have to do it as late as possible in the race if it's possible. It's not rocket science and it's understandable from a team perspective.

[Gridfire]

RBR really don't seem to want to favour Webber in any way do they? I strongly suspect that if Vettel and Webber's results were reversed, it would be full steam ahead Team Vettel by now, and it probably would have been ever since Monaco or at least Hungary.

I could be entirely wrong of course, but it looks to me like Webber was only ever supposed to be number 2 and in place just to secure the WCC. Vettel is obviously a brilliant racer, but appears to need a season or two more to gain the experience and racecraft to succeed - also he needs better luck...

[flyer121]

Just after Singapore , I was of the view that Webber cant finish it off by himself and if the team constantly used switches to get him the title it would be a massive injustice.
He was half a sec off Seb there and RBR did the right thing then to not ask Vettel to move over.

But Suzuka & Korea (barring the spin) Webber has shown speed , we did not see for a long time, so Webber looks capable of winning it on his own as well.

RBR need to be ready to switch him ahead if the need arises to stop Alonso taking the title , but as some have already pointed out - the right way is let them both give it 100% until the last few laps (or atleast just before the pits) and then make the right call if required.

Also - I have seen people calling out for support for Webber without actually specifying what form does that "Support" take?
I feel Q3 runs and optimal pit strategy (to beat the Ferrari and not necessarily jump each other) is what they have to give Webber because frankly he is in a better position without feeling guilty about Vettel's run of poor luck.

Beyond that any support becomes tricky and depends on situations . Good grid positions are a given for RBRs at Brazil but both drivers have had bad starts and if something like that happens they may simply be not in a position to help out anyone at all.

[One]

Vettel could still win the title and they do owe it to him to allow him a chance after the failure. Webber took himself out, so his stock within the team has dropped a little.

I think it's the only approach they could take.

Yes it is OK, but is it THE WAY to win the championship?

Ferrari certainly will play another card and WILL take the title away.

[Tenmantaylor]

If I was Horner (and more importantly, impartial) I would make sure that if the situation arises where Sebastian and Mark are running in that order that they should swap to maximize Mark's points. If Seb takes points from Mark in Brazil then has a DNF in Abu Dhabi and Mark loses the title by that amount of points they are going to look like complete tits. This is the only time of year when team orders start to become acceptable IMO. It's harsh on Seb as he still has a chance but with a full strength Fernando to fight in a full strength Ferrari they need to give themselves every chance. It's back Mark or lose the title IMO. Of course, Button could still mathematically win the title but I think he too should yield to Lewis now should the same situation arise, it's only fair for the team to try get a WDC rather than none.

[flyer121]

RBR really don't seem to want to favor Webber in any way do they? I strongly suspect that if Vettel and Webber's results were reversed, it would be full steam ahead Team Vettel by now, and it probably would have been ever since Monaco or at least Hungary.

I could be entirely wrong of course, but it looks to me like Webber was only ever supposed to be number 2 and in place just to secure the WCC. Vettel is obviously a brilliant racer, but appears to need a season or two more to gain the experience and race craft to succeed - also he needs better luck...

I m not sure about what would have happened either in case of points table being reversed. If Webber was constantly getting P2 behind Seb then it would be a no brainer , but if Webber was pipping Seb in-spite of being behind in points , then I am sure they would have looked at things differently.

Obviously if RBR did not have any rivals threatening WDC or WCC , then RBR may simply decide which driver won by random small things to influence the decision. Fortunately (or not) , there is a real threat of WDC getting away , so they cant resort to such tactics. They have no choice but to give best equipment to their drivers if they hope to bag the title.

About Mark being #2 from the start , I have to agree that it may have been the unsaid truth from the start of the season and Mark's results early on did not do much to counter that either.

A good suggestion about the possible reasons is this (from Vettel vs Webber thread)

I think this is where RBR made their mistake.
I have no doubt THEY expected SV to be 0.2s or more faster than MW.

I suspect they came to this conclusion during winter testing in 09 (a very foolish thing to do considering MWs condition)

What has happened instead is that MW has been faster than SV at some tracks and SV faster than MW at others.
In the remaining tracks its been VERY close with SV being BULLETPROOF in his final Q3 runs and that leaving MW behind in the Q tally but only by 1/100ths of seconds.

Edited by flyer121, 28 October 2010 - 10:35.

[DILLIGAF]

RBR need to be ready to switch him ahead if the need arises to stop Alonso taking the title , but as some have already pointed out - the right way is let them both give it 100% until the last few laps (or atleast just before the pits) and then make the right call if required.

Also - I have seen people calling out for support for Webber without actually specifying what form does that "Support" take?
I feel Q3 runs and optimal pit strategy (to beat the Ferrari and not necessarily jump each other) is what they have to give Webber because frankly he is in a better position without feeling guilty about Vettel's run of poor luck.

+1

[seahawk]

It is difficult.

Say in Brazil it is

Vet
Web
Alo

at the end and RBR switches the position.

Then it is the last race and Alonso´s engine blows.

It ends

Vet
Web
Ham

[flyer121]

^^
Brazil
VET
WEB
HAM
ALO

- RBR refuse to switch positions , Webber is furious.

AbuDhabi
VET
HAM
WEB
ALO

VET is on course to win the title .. If Webber releases Alonso, Alonso will be champ.

It may get interesting - come the last race.

Edited by flyer121, 29 October 2010 - 09:44.

[ChrisAttebery]

Alonzo is really due for an engine failure IMHO. I hope Seb cleans up the last two races. He has made some dumb errors this year, but so have Fred and Mark. I don't think Lewis has a snow ball's chance anymore.

[BillBald]

[/IMG]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

here we see Seb before the meeting where his support role was discussed, unfortunately no image survives after the suggestion of him becoming a number 2 as there were far too many dummies spat and teddys thrown from the pram.

Seb really is still just a youngster, isn't he?

[SchumiP1]

get a subscription to Autosport, read the column and then understand why they have no choice but to do what they are doing.

or, dont get a subscription and carry on looking like you dont know what you are talking about.

Start of this week I was in the same camp as you. Reality is its not that simple.

Autosport subscrition is useless. It should be free.

[pRy]

Christian was on the radio suggesting Dietrich doesn't really mind if they don't win the titles, it's being fair and at the front that counts but I suspect he will mind. Not sure if it will be enough to cost Horner his job if they don't win at least one title this year but there will surely be questions asked. If they can't bring the title home this year when can they.

[FlatOverCrest]

I would love to see Mark Webber win the WDC and for Red Bull to lose the WCC. It'd be great if McLaren won the Constructors instead. All one has to do is think about how Red Bull would react if it were Vettel that were 11 points behind Alonso, and Webber a further 14 points behind Vettel. There is no doubt in my mind (nor should their be in yours) that Red Bull would favor Vettel early, often, and in public.

Red Bull management is so ridiculous these days, that even if Vettel was mathematically eliminated from the WDC, I think they would still avoid backing Webber publicly.

I know it is highly unlikely that Webber can (or would necessarily want to) get out of his 2011 Red Bull contract, but the most ideal outcome to the 2010 WDC in my wish is for Webber to win the WDC and take the #1 to Ferrari. I am really tired of Helmut Marko, Dietrich Mateschitz, Sebastian Vettel, and "the finger." Can't anyone teach Vettel to show #1 by showing the inside of his finger? He keeps showing "#1" as if he's flipping someone off.

THIS!!!!!!!!!! Could not have put it better myself.

[DILLIGAF]

Christian was on the radio suggesting Dietrich doesn't really mind if they don't win the titles, it's being fair and at the front that counts but I suspect he will mind. Not sure if it will be enough to cost Horner his job if they don't win at least one title this year but there will surely be questions asked. If they can't bring the title home this year when can they.

Why the hell would Dietrich not mind if they don't win the titles? Not a good look if they want to build a support base for Red Bull Racing as a team. It shows they're only in it to sell a crap energy drink. Could anyone imagine real teams like Ferrari or McLaren coming out with those sorts of comments?

Red Bull suck.

Edited by DILLIGAF, 29 October 2010 - 23:00.

[Smile17]

Why the hell would Dietrich not mind if they don't win the titles? Not a good attitude if they want fans to support Red Bull Racing as a team. Could anyone igamine real teams like Ferrari or McLaren coming out with those sorts of comments?

Red Bull suck.

Well Mclaren didn't mind in 2007? Made some rare statements too...

No, ofcourse RBR mind and they know that very well. With the superiority they had and still have this season they should easily win both titles and finish 1-2 in the WDC.
They will do everything these last 2 races to get that. Dietrich might have said that, but I think he's just downplaying it a bit.

[baddog]

In what way did Vettel or anyone else make Webber drive worse for the last 3 races..

[Smile17]

In what way did Vettel or anyone else make Webber drive worse for the last 3 races..

None, actually the pressure, but that's something else.

[WhiteBlue]

Red Bull is in F1 to sell cans. They will not care if they get the media exposure by dramatically loosing a WDC to Ferrari if they project the image of being the good guys. If Alonso wins it by seven points or less and the Red Bull drivers come second and third people will see Red Bull as the moral victor and Ferrari as the villain. You can sell a lot of cans with that story.

[Smile17]

Red Bull is in F1 to sell cans. They will not care if they get the media exposure by dramatically loosing a WDC to Ferrari if they project the image of being the good guys. If Alonso wins it by seven points or less and the Red Bull drivers come second and third people will see Red Bull as the moral victor and Ferrari as the villain. You can sell a lot of cans with that story.

Well that's when you look at Red Bull as a mark, but I don't think the team will be happy with selling cans only.

[WhiteBlue]

Well that's when you look at Red Bull as a mark, but I don't think the team will be happy with selling cans only.

Well, if you look at it from the team side they all get paid to do a good job. Some like Newey have obviously contributed to the situation by allowing piss poor reliability. Horner himself must take the blame for Turkey and the miscommunication at Silverstone. That did not help either. So the management of the team has been widely responsible for the effed up situation. Mateschitz is the only guy who will in the end say that he got value for his money and will be happy with his job done.

[ImDDAA]

Anyone who still has a chance of winning the WDC should fight for it, Vettel is quite clearly still in it.

[DILLIGAF]

Red Bull is in F1 to sell cans. They will not care if they get the media exposure by dramatically loosing a WDC to Ferrari if they project the image of being the good guys. If Alonso wins it by seven points or less and the Red Bull drivers come second and third people will see Red Bull as the moral victor and Ferrari as the villain. You can sell a lot of cans with that story.

But people will see that Ferrari is the winner of the WDC & history books don't show who the moral victor is do they. With their attitude why would any F1 can want to become a Red Bull Racing team fan? At least as a Ferrari or McLaren fan you can be sure that your team is commited to winning titles.

Edited by DILLIGAF, 29 October 2010 - 23:13.

[WhiteBlue]

But people will see that Ferrari is the winner of the WDC & history books don't show who the moral victor is do they. With their attitude why would any F1 can want to become a Red Bull Racing team fan? At least as a Ferrari or McLaren fan you can be sure that your team is commited to winning titles.

History books don't matter to Red Bull as a brand. I don't think that the Red Bull Racing management is less committed than their direct rivals. It is just the typical Newey weakness to have fast but fragile cars. Horner was very inexperienced when he suddenly needed great leadership skill. Even Ron Dennis with all his experience did not do better in 2007. Domenicali and Whitmarsh also had their screw ups which never stopped the fans to support the team. Fans generally to 90% support drivers and not the team.