240 replies to this topic

[Ferrari2183]

Did Ferrari use team orders in Korea?

I find this article interesting and would like to know your opinions... If it happened as said then Ferrari were real quick on their feet and fooled alot of people. Gareth add 1 to strategy for Ferrari.

[smitten]

Well the radio feed is available to the FIA so it is easy enough for them to find out.

[GPmaster]

The British are searching again.......

[Lights]

Well the radio feed is available to the FIA so it is easy enough for them to find out.

Exactly. If they told Massa anything, the FIA has heard it already.

[Crafty]

More evidence would be lap times - did Massa suddenly drop off after Alonsos stop ? what was the gap to the car behind ?

I'm no Ferrari fan, but I don't think this is true.

[Just me]

as far as i can see there's nothing in the timing data that suggests that Massa backed anyone up

[AlanWake]

The British are searching again.......

As usual

[Panktej]

Comparing the lap times of Lewis Hamilton and Felipe Massa for that particular lap can be another way to find the answer for whether Ferrari used team orders in Korea.

[TurboF1]

Im not exactly Ferraris biggest fan, and even if they did do something like that, i'm not against it. I doubt they did it, but if they did, kudos to them for thinking on their feet.

[Callisto]

Its a british jouranalist,not the british,please dont make blanket statements

[rabbitleader]

The British are searching again.......

And so what if the British are searching! The Italians would do the same if it would favour Ferrari! It's not the first time that Italian media has manufactured an outrage to suit their team.

Typical double standards by those that favour Ferrari!

Edited by rabbitleader, 28 October 2010 - 21:12.

[hunnylander]

Comparing the lap times of Lewis Hamilton and Felipe Massa for that particular lap can be another way to find the answer for whether Ferrari used team orders in Korea.

It isn't. The situation is under Safety Car. And supposedly Massa had nothing to do with Hamilton in this case, because LH was ahead of him. The thing is about the cars behind Massa and Massa himself compared Alonso.

But under SC the lap times of the cars are depending on many factors. There's a delta time, and then the position and collecting moves of the SC. For example the cars ahead of Massa reaches the SC and slow down behind it earlier. That increases the lap time for the same lap compared to the cars behind.

Edited by hunnylander, 28 October 2010 - 21:19.

[juandiego]

According to the FIA race pit summary, Alonso's pit stop in lap 32 took 27.610 secs, and Massa's one lap before took 24.048: only 3.562 secs less than Alonso's.

According to the FIA race history chart, Massa was 10.549 secs. behind Alonso in lap 30 before he pitted in the next lap, therefore despite the delay Alonso still could be ahead of Massa by 7 seconds.

Safety car was deployed in lap 31, 32, 33 and 34.

First off, I doubt that in just three and half seconds Ferrari had time to notice Alonso's pit stop delay and call Massa to warn him. Second, the Safety car was deployed hence the speed of the group was already slowed down by the SC or delta times.

Sort of end of the story.

Edited by juandiego, 28 October 2010 - 21:47.

[Just me]

was quick-thinking enough to use Massa to back up the queue out on track - preventing more cars than just Hamilton taking advantage. This cost Massa a place

Massa was 4th before the SC and still 4th on the restart.

Fact checking, what fact checking?

Then again it's grandprix.com.

[heki]

Ferrari didn't know, that they are going to have problems with the wheel nut of Alonso - it means they had max 15 seconds (wheel nut problem realized + Alonso coming back from the pits) to orchestrate the whole theatre. BS.
Mark Hughes should try something better next time, but maybe I wont read it now...

[ensign14]

Its a british jouranalist,not the british,please dont make blanket statements

It's not even a journalist. Mark Hughes is not making any value judgment. And why should he? Team strategy is allowed. It's whoever wrote the gp.com story that's trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.

It's difficult to tell from the gap chart because everyone was popping into the pits. And the timing line is a bit awry. What we can say is that Schumacher was 1.1s behind Massa after Alonso's stop, nearly 6s behind before it - and that Massa was 6s behind Hamilton as they both pitted and 8s behind afterwards. If there was any holding up, it was comparatively tiny, not enough to stop Schumacher from passing Alonso.

[juandiego]

This is the pic in the article.
I suggest a much better caption for that purpose.

Felipe Massa, Korean GP 2010. As can be seen clearly, slowing down the queue after receiving team orders from the pit crew.

[Mandzipop]

I've just re-watched it a couple of times and I'd say the answer is no. Schumacher was still quite a distance behind Massa. They were all trying to warm their tyres up. Lap time delta combined with warming tyres up knowing that they were going to be behind a safety car.

What was the place that Massa lost? If they were trying to ensure that Massa was going to slow everyone down then they needed their pitstop for Massa to be quicker. It was 1.4 seconds slower than Hamiltons. Schumacher had a bad pitstop too.

I have no idea what they are talking about with Massa holding the pack up. Schumacher was way behind.

Sensationalist journalism.

[juandiego]

It's not even a journalist. Mark Hughes is not making any value judgment. And why should he? Team strategy is allowed. It's whoever wrote the gp.com story that's trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.

Is that Mark Hughes who was a footballer and played for the Atlético de Madrid something like 20 odds years ago?

I think more relevant to notice in the Race pit stop summary (my post above) that Alonso's pit stop just took 3.5 seconds more than Massa's. This time and the time from the pit box to the pit exit, around 7 seconds more, is the total time they had to realize it and to call Massa to tell him anything.

[tohru222]

IMO this constant "Ferrari uses team orders" whining is starting to get boring. All teams use team orders in one form or another.

[simplyfast]

The British are searching again.......

clearly you have not checked your facts have you

sorry to burst your bubble but a very very quick who is check shows that the web site who published this story is not british owned but American

FYI
grandprix.com is owned by
INSIDE F1, INC.
who are based in
TAPPAN NY
United States

So are we going to see you claiming now that its the Americans who are once again fishing i somehow doubt that
As for even if it is true i hate Ferrari but dont see they have broken any rules after all when everything is said and done they did not change any result and could only be accused of ensuring the result stayed the same.
I think most would agree team orders that ensure positions do not change are clearly outside of the scope of the team orders rule.

[scheivlak]

IMO this constant "Ferrari uses team orders" whining is starting to get boring. All teams use team orders in one form or another.

This constant "All teams use team orders in one form or another" reaction is getting pretty boring as well.

[SuRGe]

clearly you have not checked your facts have you

sorry to burst your bubble but a very very quick who is check shows that the web site who published this story is not british owned but American

FYI
grandprix.com is owned by
INSIDE F1, INC.
who are based in
TAPPAN NY
United States

So are we going to see you claiming now that its the Americans who are once again fishing i somehow doubt that
As for even if it is true i hate Ferrari but dont see they have broken any rules after all when everything is said and done they did not change any result and could only be accused of ensuring the result stayed the same.
I think most would agree team orders that ensure positions do not change are clearly outside of the scope of the team orders rule.

They quote an Autosport report

[ensign14]

They quote an Autosport report

Which does not mention illegality or, indeed, team orders strictu sensu at all. Indeed it uses the words "quick-thinking" which are words of praise.

But that's the British for you. Maliciously praising a team from another country.

[kandru]

They quote an Autosport report

yes, Mark Hugues says so in this week's magazine. Utter bullshit if you ask me. Only people with a nut as a brain would believe it, cos it's as easy as doing some laptimes research and basic maths to realise he's talking crap, once again.

[kandru]

Which does not mention illegality or, indeed, team orders strictu sensu at all. Indeed it uses the words "quick-thinking" which are words of praise.

But that's the British for you. Maliciously praising a team from another country.

words of praise...while accusing of something they haven't done

[chrisblades85]

IF they did. So what?

[Hairpin]

IF they did. So what?

At this point it is stupid not to.

[Sausage]

I'm pretty sure they didn't even from memory: Alonso only lost a few seconds. Hamilton just got in front of him due to it and Massa and the rest were before that already behind Lewis. Everybody drives at about the same speed under SC coming out.

The thing was the safety car took about 3 laps to pick up Vettel so maybe that scrambled the journeys brains or something? It looked obvious to me nothing of the suggested sort happened.

[simplyfast]

words of praise...while accusing of something they haven't done

so we take it then that you think that a compliment of quick thinking is an insult then?
perhaps that says far more about the typical Ferrari supporter than the British.
Besides its only the American publisher who changes it to illegal tactics not the British journalist who is complimenting Ferrari tactics rather than claiming foul deeds afoot.

[rolf123]

Which does not mention illegality or, indeed, team orders strictu sensu at all. Indeed it uses the words "quick-thinking" which are words of praise.

But that's the British for you. Maliciously praising a team from another country.

Stop stereotyping the British, please. Some would construe your comment as racism.

[Seanspeed]

yes, Mark Hugues says so in this week's magazine. Utter bullshit if you ask me. Only people with a nut as a brain would believe it, cos it's as easy as doing some laptimes research and basic maths to realise he's talking crap, once again.

The problem is that there's plenty of people out there who watch and follow F1, but dont go into all the laptime analysis crap that we tend to do on here.

I'm sure there'll be a large number of people out there who take his words as the truth. Shame, but whatever.

[Dunder]

I didn't notice Massa backing anyone up on that lap but even if he did it would appear that it was totally unnecessary. Prior to the safety car he was 10.5 seconds behind Alonso.

[chrisblades85]

Stop stereotyping the British, please. Some would construe your comment as racism.

Surely not?

Ensign is Brittish, I thought? Well a Brummie.

[simplyfast]

The problem is that there's plenty of people out there who watch and follow F1, but dont go into all the laptime analysis crap that we tend to do on here.

I'm sure there'll be a large number of people out there who take his words as the truth. Shame, but whatever.

and there are plenty of people even on this board who get basic things like Mark Hugues claimed Ferrari used illegal tactics as what he said when it was only an American site that reported that and in autosport he claims they were quick thing with no claim of illegal tactics wrong.
Perhaps read the articles (both of them) and the whole of this thread and you will see how wrong many are, right here be that through ignorance or deliberately.

[VicR]

The real question should be "did Ferrari use team orders in Bahrain in the 2nd half of the race"? Sure they did. In reality, could it have been any other way once you think about the entire situation? No.

[as65p]

The real question should be "did Ferrari use team orders in Bahrain in the 2nd half of the race"? Sure they did. In reality, could it have been any other way once you think about the entire situation? No.

I claim they started using team orders in Australia. Once you think about the whole situation, it's obvious that Alonso was forbidden to attack Massa, despite being much faster. Yes.

[simplyfast]

I claim they started using team orders in Australia. Once you think about the whole situation, it's obvious that Alonso was forbidden to attack Massa, despite being much faster. Yes.

Perhaps you may be onto something because clearly if Alonso was as great a driver as his fans claim he would have had no problems getting past a much inferior driver in the same car

Edited by simplyfast, 28 October 2010 - 22:57.

[Dunder]

I claim they started using team orders in Australia. Once you think about the whole situation, it's obvious that Alonso was forbidden to attack Massa, despite being much faster. Yes.

China? Silverstone?

[VicR]

I claim they started using team orders in Australia. Once you think about the whole situation, it's obvious that Alonso was forbidden to attack Massa, despite being much faster. Yes.

What did they tell Felipe over the radio in Bahrain once the pitstop were made and some laps later? Do you remember? I do. It has made perfect sense for weeks. Months in reality when you look back at it. One could also say more than a year...

[as65p]

Perhaps you may be onto something because clearly if Alonso was as great a driver as his fans claim he would have had no problems getting past a much inferior driver in the same car

Exactly. No more proof needed. So in Hockenheim Alonso was only paid back what the team cost him in Australia.

[Callisto]

Stop stereotyping the British, please. Some would construe your comment as racism.

Its not racism,because the british are not a RACE,its stereotyping,as your first line says

Edited by Callisto, 28 October 2010 - 23:07.

[as65p]

What did they tell Felipe over the radio in Bahrain once the pitstop were made and some laps later? Do you remember? I do. It has made perfect sense for weeks. Months in reality when you look back at it. One could also say more than a year...

Way more than a year. Everything Massa endures now has it's roots in what he agreed to do in 2006, if you think about it.

[heki]

Mark Hughes

How can be someone so biased towards the British... OMG.

There was in fact no time to do anything like this.

10 secs after the team "messed up" with the wheel nut Alonso was back on the track.

10 secs is not even enough to describe the "team order" to Massa.

[VicR]

Way more than a year. Everything Massa endures now has it's roots in what he agreed to do in 2006, if you think about it.

No, just up until the time Kimi was sacked. No more, no less. Afterall, everyone should have seen it and everyone should have been able to predict the outcome once the changes were made last year.

[redbarron]

No, just up until the time Kimi was sacked. No more, no less. Afterall, everyone should have seen it and everyone should have been able to predict the outcome once the changes were made last year.

You really are sour arn't you. Do you have anything better to do with your life then slag Alonso at any chance?

[ForeverF1]

Posts deleted. Please stay on the topic.

[Captain Tightpants]

Did Ferrari use team orders in Korea?

If this is true, then hopefully someone will pick up on it and take action. While I have no issue with team orders once a driver is out of the championship race, I'm sick and tired of Ferrari doing whatever the hell they want. Especially since this seems to have interfered with the results of other cars. But then, I'm doubtful anyone will take action. If Ferrari got penalised gird places or had points taken away, they'd probably threaten to leave the championship despite the fact that they had clearly broken the rules. But fi they keep pulling **** like this and expect everyone to be okay with it, Formula 1 can do just fine without them.

[CatharticF1]

If this is true, then hopefully someone will pick up on it and take action. While I have no issue with team orders once a driver is out of the championship race, I'm sick and tired of Ferrari doing whatever the hell they want. Especially since this seems to have interfered with the results of other cars. But then, I'm doubtful anyone will take action. If Ferrari got penalised gird places or had points taken away, they'd probably threaten to leave the championship despite the fact that they had clearly broken the rules. But fi they keep pulling **** like this and expect everyone to be okay with it, Formula 1 can do just fine without them.

Wow - when you want to beat someone anything within reach becomes a stick, right?

This sort of story is a symptom of Ferrari being competitive.

The tone of it is provocative, the substance of it doesn't make sense.
(The wheel nut didn't cost him enough time for even Massa to be a risk or to trigger this in any case.)

Further, if there was an issue with Massa's pace or deltas then act regardless. If there isn't Ferrari and their drivers and any team can do what they like.

Or will Charlie Whiting get on the radio and tell Mark to speed up because he's holding up Fernando and Lewis in the middle of a stint?

[CatharticF1]

Did Ferrari use team orders in Korea?

The hypocrisy of similar issues by elements of the English media is appalling. Here is an extract from a race report on the very same grandprix.com who reported and judged the allegation regarding Massa and Ferrari in Korea. It's disappointing how poorly they collectively behave when Ferrari look competitive.

This report is from Spa 2005 and concerns two McLarens, the leading one at the time being JPM, the second one Kimi:

http://www.grandprix.../gpe/rr747.html

<quote>

.. and, of course, out came the Safety Car.

And now we saw McLaren at its brilliant best because some clever strategy wallah realised that everyone would want to come in and that having two cars at the same time would not be brilliant and so Montoya went charging on and Raikkonen was told to slow down and crawl around to slow everyone else so that Montoya would emerge in the lead. Montoya completed his lap in 2m08s, Kimi's lap took 2m34s. The two McLaren pits stops were done in 36s and 38s while some of the other teams had to park one car while they dealt with the other.

</quote>

My favourite is "brilliant best" which surely stands in stark contrast to the judgement made on Ferrari.