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Daimler SP250s on Australian circuits?


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#1 Ray Bell

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 12:46

I only know of a couple, for sure...

Clyde Hodgins, Max Brunninghausen and somebody else (I knew the name earlier today!) ran at Warwick Farm, possibly at Bathurst, Catalina and/or Oran Park as well. This I believe might have been the one car, a red one. Can anyone confirm that?

And the Geoghegans ran a black one in the Bathurst 6-hour of 1962, which it won.

What other information do we have on SP250s racing in Australia?

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#2 cooper997

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 13:54

I only know of a couple, for sure...

Clyde Hodgins, Max Brunninghausen and somebody else (I knew the name earlier today!) ran at Warwick Farm, possibly at Bathurst, Catalina and/or Oran Park as well. This I believe might have been the one car, a red one. Can anyone confirm that?

And the Geoghegans ran a black one in the Bathurst 6-hour of 1962, which it won.

What other information do we have on SP250s racing in Australia?


Ray,

Following entries may be of interest. Although it looks like the Warwick Farm July 30th, 1961 meeting may have been the debut for the Geoghegan car.

Warwick Farm International Feb 4th 1962
Event 1 Production Sports Cars Scratch Race - 5 laps
#25 Geoghegan Motors L/pool (dvr I Geoghegan) Daimler SP250 2500 red
(he had set the WF lap record for over 2000cc production Sports cars at the Nov 5th, 1961 meeting with 2:00.6 - going by the table in the back of this programme)

Bathurst Easter Monday 1962 (April 23rd) meeting
Event 3 Production Sports Cars - 3 laps
Over 2000cc
#3 Clyde Hodgins/I Geoghegan/L Geoghegan Daimler SP250 2500
Then again in event 7 - 5 lapper (with Le Mans start). In 'Pit Chatter' it mentions the drive being Clyde's with Ian in a Super Seven.

Warwick Farm June 3rd 1962
Event 4 Production Sports Car Scratch Race - 5 laps
Over 2000cc
#19 C Hodgins Daimler SP250 2500 red

That will have to do at the moment - too late.

Stephen

#3 DanTra2858

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 20:50

I only know of a couple, for sure...

Clyde Hodgins, Max Brunninghausen and somebody else (I knew the name earlier today!) ran at Warwick Farm, possibly at Bathurst, Catalina and/or Oran Park as well. This I believe might have been the one car, a red one. Can anyone confirm that?

And the Geoghegans ran a black one in the Bathurst 6-hour of 1962, which it won.

What other information do we have on SP250s racing in Australia?


Ray I believe that the Radio Announcer John Laws had a one off drive at the Farm in his SP250 some time in the 1960's.

#4 Ray Bell

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 21:04

So maybe we now have three cars?

Do I recall seeing a green one on the circuit at some time?

#5 Ian G

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 21:49

Ray I believe that the Radio Announcer John Laws had a one off drive at the Farm in his SP250 some time in the 1960's.


I think he also had a couple of drives in a Mini around the same time,used an assumed name on his CL.

#6 ellrosso

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 22:28

We have a shot each of the Doherty car at Longford (next to Beechey in PK) and Whitelaw at the Surfers 1967 12 hr. Just type Daimler SP250 into the Advanced Search on the oldracephotos.com website will bring them up. Sorry I can't post them, haven't got time today. Cheers, ellrosso

#7 Paul Hamilton

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 23:18

I only know of a couple, for sure...

Clyde Hodgins, Max Brunninghausen and somebody else (I knew the name earlier today!) ran at Warwick Farm, possibly at Bathurst, Catalina and/or Oran Park as well. This I believe might have been the one car, a red one. Can anyone confirm that?

And the Geoghegans ran a black one in the Bathurst 6-hour of 1962, which it won.

What other information do we have on SP250s racing in Australia?



I think the red car you mention, Ray, may have been the one owned by Victorian, Jim Abbott, of Lakeland hillclimb fame. I do recall it paying a visit to the 'Farm and it may have ended up in Clyde Hodgkins hands. It was identifiable by a rather hefty (for the time!!) roll over bar structure.

#8 Ray Bell

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 02:07

Was it, then, the one driven by Brunninghausen?

I'm fairly sure there was one there the first meeting I went to... October 14, 1962.

#9 David McKinney

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 06:25

If I might go OT slightly, it suprises me that you’re debating whether two or three cars raced in Australia. In NZ, where most of the time the production cars had to race with the sports-racers, we had loads racing at the national level:

1961: Ross Jensen, Vic Neate

1962: Neate, Rob Wilkin, John Richards, Peter Scott, Ian Green

1963: Wilkin, Richards, Bill Caldwell and Arthur van Thiel, Bruce Merrett

1964: Merrett, Trevor Sheffield, Steve and David Oxton, Dick and Mike Langley

1965: Sheffield, Oxton, Roger Smith, Doug Evans

1966: Sheffield, Oxton, Smith, G A Jackson, Trevor Pengelly, Graeme Hitch

1967: Sheffield, Pengelly, Hitch, John Bowden, Peter Read

1968: Evan Gardiner

1969: Gardiner

Plus numerous others in local events only, starting in 1961 with Wally Bern and Neil Whittaker



#10 Ray Bell

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 06:41

Must have been some commonality of parts with Hillmans, David...

I believe there might have actually been six or seven. But I don't know, so I've thrown the question onto the forum to see if we can find out.

#11 john medley

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 07:16

Virginia Lighezzolo (sp?) in red Clyde Hodgins car

#12 arttidesco

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 09:08

Some interesting stuff about SP 250's down under here including what appears to be a list of chassis numbers and owners :-)

#13 RCH

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 09:09

SP250s raced in the UK at the time but hardly set set the world on fire! Interesting to see that anyone bothered to use them in Oz and NZ. I always reckoned that if Jaguar had slotted in the 4.5 they could have outcobraed Mr. Shelby.

#14 Ray Bell

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 09:38

That does sound like a good idea...

Certainly while the Cobras were still running the 260. Maybe they would have gone to the 302 to meet the challenge?

#15 Allan Lupton

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 09:53

SP250s raced in the UK at the time but hardly set set the world on fire! Interesting to see that anyone bothered to use them in Oz and NZ. I always reckoned that if Jaguar had slotted in the 4.5 they could have outcobraed Mr. Shelby.

Sadly the Daimler Major engine was rather heavy, unlike the US cast iron engines, and that despite aluminium alloy c/heads.
The odd one or two were converted privately and were rather nose-heavy - engine accessability which wasn't wonderful in the first place was then pretty awful.
The best way to go racing faster with an SP was to modify the standard engine as Dick Crosfield did. Can't remember whether it was done when he had the car, or if later owner John Mackay fitted the set of twin-choke d/d Webers that came of Bob Anderson's C/Climax engine.
The SP engine could give trouble if it was over-revved: I remember at one sprint (at Greenham Common, before it became a peace camp) someone unwisely used too many revs too often and some big-end shells migrated into the adjacent con-rod. Mind you, Greenham was a very fast course as the width of the runways made the right-angled turns possible at great speed (100+ m.p.h.) and there was an 80 m.p.h. hairpin bend.

Edited to say: I had 4 SPs at one time or another up to 1979 and my green one ended up in Australia and is being restored somewhere (lost the details) but was probably not raced.

Edited by Allan Lupton, 31 October 2010 - 09:56.


#16 RCH

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 12:21

Sadly the Daimler Major engine was rather heavy, unlike the US cast iron engines, and that despite aluminium alloy c/heads.
The odd one or two were converted privately and were rather nose-heavy - engine accessability which wasn't wonderful in the first place was then pretty awful.


Well if you could have alloy blocked XK engines? I've often wondered why more use wasn't made of the Daimler V8s in competition, presumably from what you say the weight told against them. They were used in hill climb cars, certainly the 2.5 and I believe there was at least one bigger engine used. Presumably they must have had some potential.

Edited by RCH, 31 October 2010 - 12:22.


#17 Allan Lupton

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 13:04

Well the SP250 engine was powerful and tuneable, if heavy.
Remember it was designed by Edward Turner whose work at Triumph (motorcycles) was carried forward to Daimler in that both have hemispherical combustion chambers with 90 degree valves, pushrod operated from low camshafts and very similar cylinder sizes. As produced the SP was at around the same specific output as Turner's pre-war Speed Twin (54 b.h.p./litre) and there was potential to get that up to Bonneville level (71 b.h.p./litre) which would have been the level used by Peter Westbury in his hill-climb cars (Cooper and Felday). That'd be c180 b.h.p. on petrol, and raather more on meth-based fuel.

#18 Ray Bell

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 13:38

Some Daimler rods did a lot of racing, however...

They were in the Repco V8 F1 engines.

#19 D-Type

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 16:30

Some Daimler rods did a lot of racing, however...

They were in the Repco V8 F1 engines.

If they were man enough for the Repco power, than surely they were over-engineered for the SP250! And the same probably applied to the rest of the car.

When raced in Australia, what was the opposition in the over 2000cc class? Austin-Healeys and TR3/4/5/6 Triumphs obviously. but surely an E-Type, or even an XK140, would have blown the Daimlers into the weeds.

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#20 David McKinney

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 20:07

Well the SP250 engine was powerful and tuneable, if heavy.
Remember it was designed by Edward Turner whose work at Triumph (motorcycles) was carried forward to Daimler in that both have hemispherical combustion chambers with 90 degree valves, pushrod operated from low camshafts and very similar cylinder sizes. As produced the SP was at around the same specific output as Turner's pre-war Speed Twin (54 b.h.p./litre) and there was potential to get that up to Bonneville level (71 b.h.p./litre) which would have been the level used by Peter Westbury in his hill-climb cars (Cooper and Felday). That'd be c180 b.h.p. on petrol, and raather more on meth-based fuel.

Peter Hughes ran s stroked SP250 engine in the back of a Lotus 25/33 in NZ, fitted with the Lucas fuel-injection from a BRM P261 engine and special pistons, and claimed 200bhp for it (80bhp/litre)

#21 Ray Bell

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 20:11

Originaly posted by D-Type
.....When raced in Australia, what was the opposition in the over 2000cc class? Austin-Healeys and TR3/4/5/6 Triumphs obviously. but surely an E-Type, or even an XK140, would have blown the Daimlers into the weeds.


So did some of the Healeys and TRs, MGA Twin Cams etc. I don't recall that there was any speed about the Daimlers I saw.

#22 ellrosso

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 23:35

Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImageSP250 pics are : Whitelaw Surfers 12 hr 1967, J Doherty Longford 1961 (Beechey alongside) and Warwick Farm 1965 - leave the caption for this one to those with more info than me.

#23 cooper997

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 00:13

Ellrosso,

Great photos - The Doherty car in the Longford photo must make it an early delivered car going by it's Victorian rego number.

The Warwick Farm photo appears to be from the February 14th Tasman Meeting. #3 Sprite is likely to be Doug Macarthur, the #23 SP250 is entered by Ralph Sach with Max Brunninghausen down as its driver. The other Sprite just coming into frame is possibly Lyndon McLeod.

Stephen

#24 ellrosso

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 00:55

Yes it would have been the Tasman meeting as there were shots of the Tasman cars in the same batch.

#25 seldo

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 03:20

I know Johnny Martin drove one at Bathurst I think (or was it the ' Farm ?), and he wasn't very impressed as I recall him telling me that it flexed so much that the doors used to fly open which was quite disconcerting.

#26 Paul Hamilton

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 03:54

I know Johnny Martin drove one at Bathurst I think (or was it the ' Farm ?), and he wasn't very impressed as I recall him telling me that it flexed so much that the doors used to fly open which was quite disconcerting.


Max Brunninghausen tells me that his car was ex Jim Abbott and had been prepared by Harry Firth in Melbourne. It was red and one of three Max recalls racing in the early W 'Farm days. It used 4 x 45 DCOE Webers and was more highly developed that the others which still used SUs. They were the black, wired wheeled Geoghegan car which won the Bathurst 6 hour race and another red one driven by Clyde Hodgins. After it came to Sydney Max's car was prepared by Ralph Sach. To quote Max 'it went like a cut snake but had no brakes!!" Anyone who knows Max will be familiar with many of his lurid stories but one of the best is that relating to his overtaking of a semi trailer at high speed on the left side of the road while bringing the SP250 up from Melbourne in the rain following his purchase of it from Jim Abbott.

#27 cooper997

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 05:29

I know Johnny Martin drove one at Bathurst I think (or was it the ' Farm ?), and he wasn't very impressed as I recall him telling me that it flexed so much that the doors used to fly open which was quite disconcerting.


Seldo,

You're right on both counts.

Bathurst Easter (Apr 15) 1963 there's an entry for Event 5 '#11 Martin's Neutral Bay Motors/J Martin Daimler SP250 2500" Hodgins is also entered, carrying #3.

Warwick Farm, 2/6/63 he's entered in Event 5 '#45 Martin's Neutral Bay Motors/J Martin/P Woodward Damiler SP250 2500 Black'

I suspect that Martin's car was Geoghegan's second SP250 - as in the black 1962 Bathurst 6 Hour winner. That Jim Abbott had a comment to make in his Autosportsman editorial. Because of the way it got an entry for a race with a £2000 price limit.

Plus the first red Geoghegan SP250 that they raced from WF 30/7/61 meeting became Hodgins car (or at least used by him, given his newspaper / SCW promotional connections).

Then there's the green J F Doherty, Victorian car as shown in Ellrosso's colour photo from Longford 4 & 6/3/61 meeting. At this stage of precedings being the earliest one raced.

With Paul now confirming the Brunninghausen car was ex-Jim Abbott that tends to bring the early use of the cars to 4 examples (so far). It looks like Max began using his from around the 8/9/63 WF meeting.

Stephen



#28 ellrosso

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 07:28

The Whitelaw/Jenkins/Ganderton SP250 featured in the b/w shot from the 1967 Surfers 12 hour finished 16th and last, completing 300 laps compared to the 490 laps of the winning Cusack/Brown 250 LM. The 15th placed Max DeJersey/Bill Birmingham Tassy FJ did 344 laps and was 3rd in its class behind the 250LM and the Hawkins Lola T70 - good story for the grand kids! An excellent effort by TNF'er David Seldon co driving the Volvo 122s into 6th outright with 424 laps.

#29 Ray Bell

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 12:30

Does anyone know if the Whitelaw/Jenkins/Ganderton car raced otherwise?

And what colour was it? This could be an indication if it was a previously-raced car.

#30 ellrosso

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 23:16

With the lighting on the car its a bit hard to tell what tone it is, but I reckon its either blue or green rather than a red/orange. Don't think its black.
Need someone with a program for the event. I notice its got open pipes out either side so at least it would have sounded good!

#31 Veeeight

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 07:54

Sadly the Daimler Major engine was rather heavy, unlike the US cast iron engines, and that despite aluminium alloy c/heads.
The odd one or two were converted privately and were rather nose-heavy - engine accessability which wasn't wonderful in the first place was then pretty awful.
The best way to go racing faster with an SP was to modify the standard engine as Dick Crosfield did. Can't remember whether it was done when he had the car, or if later owner John Mackay fitted the set of twin-choke d/d Webers that came of Bob Anderson's C/Climax engine.
The SP engine could give trouble if it was over-revved: I remember at one sprint (at Greenham Common, before it became a peace camp) someone unwisely used too many revs too often and some big-end shells migrated into the adjacent con-rod. Mind you, Greenham was a very fast course as the width of the runways made the right-angled turns possible at great speed (100+ m.p.h.) and there was an 80 m.p.h. hairpin bend.

Edited to say: I had 4 SPs at one time or another up to 1979 and my green one ended up in Australia and is being restored somewhere (lost the details) but was probably not raced.

Hi,

What the is this Daimler 4.5 V/8 bashing thing, have seen it on US blogs and some Pom references but in reality it's a Super Engine and perhaps this is not the right place to be telling my spin on the engine, maybe somebody might move it, that's fine but I feel it has to be out there, hopefully there are no spell mistakes....

There were several naughty if you like Daimler 4.5 litre V/8 engined racers from Dragsters in the UK to Dart Racers in the US, make no mistake it happened and some naughty ones were busted, nevertheless the 4.5 litre V/8 is a super engine and if kitted right with the 4.5 V/8 and some chassis tuning the Dart could have been a super car.

As for the 2.5 V/8 it did a good job and depending on the track a Daimler Dart took some beating even with it's wobbly handling mind you they were all wobbly handlers in those days even the for some peculiar reason the acclaimed std Corvette and what about the Ford Thunderbird.........

In my experience the 4.5 litre V/8 is an excellent engine with attributes that left the American engines behind, relatively Short Stroke, Forged Steel counterweighted Crankshaft, 5 x Main Bearings, Forged Wide Beam Conrods with 3/8" bolts and from factory specially made for Daimler Nyloc Nuts, thin wall copper lead main and big end bearings, " Daimlers bearing design became the bench mark for racing bearings" near perfect bore stroke conrod ratio,5 main bearings with 1/2" diameter waisted Main bolts that make ARP lot's claims look curious, an excellent gear type shaft driven oil pump, big for engine capacity engine valves, An Excellent LWT Alloy Inlet manifold, 2x X SU's that flow over 600CFM, Billet steel Camshaft, Dual Point Distributor, the list goes on and the engine contrary to some opinions was light by comparison to a Chevrolet 283 V/8, Chrysler 313 V/8, and only marginally heavier the the 2.5 V/8.

The Daimler 450 V/8 forged steel crankshaft is by comparison to say a Rover V/8 heavy but the weight is close to the centreline thus for most applications does not matter it's tougher and more reliable at high revs and loads then Ford 260/ 289,302 and GM's 260,283,327 cast iron crankshafts.

Over many years since about 1968 to date I have overhauled many 2.5 V/8's but just 4 x 450 V/8's, have seen just two other 450 V/8's stripped but have over a time had many individual 450 V/8 engine parts pass through my hands.

I currently own 2 x 450 V/8's one re furbished engine is fitted to a Daimler Mk2 "Jaguar Mk2".

Both the V/8's in my experience stay together very well and will stand upto sustained hard usage provided they are kept wet, having said the latter like any engine the maximum revs is generally governed by the valve train and camshaft the Daimler V/8's are no exception and both engines respond to mods that are in general used to modify engines, the 450 V/8 has a mild camshaft and soft valve springs, it revs in std form to a whisker over 6000RPM with as new valve springs.

With a different camshaft and heavier valve springs it can with the standard rocker arms and top end gear rev to over 7500RPM, I'm not talking a fully modded engine just with the cam uprated and the heavier valve springs, different needles for the wonderful HD8 2" SU's, by comprison to any of time and for many years later American V/8 the Daimler V/8 is a race engine out of the box.

The 450 is slightly wider and longer then a 2.5 V/8 but neither engine are as heavy as some broadcasted specifications and once the heavy by today's standards Dynamo and Starter are replaced with modern compact units/ alternator, Jappo starter, weights for both engines are down considerably on as they were from factory.

The 2.5 V/8 can be stroked and bored to give an easy 3.5 litre but it may surprise some people the 450 is the sleeper it's huge power and torque as from the factory was really ahead of it's time, unfortunately there are not many 4.5 V/8's about but there are a few MM's that are junk and not worth restoring most are in the UK and chances are the heads of the engines are corroded and the blocks are frost cracked but surprising thing is that in general they come alive with just a few $'s spent on them, about 1780? Majestic Majors's made., about 2500 sets of heads/ where are the extra heads?

With the from factory mild cam and ordinary cast iron exhaust headers the Daimler 450 V/8 makes in absolute std trim with only 8-1 compression well over 280 HP and this is the reason that many of time knowing Daimler Dart owners were able to get fantastic straight line performance, contrary to a popular myth the 4.5 V/8 did not introduce a handling problem for the Darts the handling limitations were allready there with the Triumph TR chassis, however to an extent the handling can be fixed/ band- aided.

The Daimler Darts to be able to cope with the power of anything other then the 2.5 V/8 need heavier front springs and a heavier duty gearbox then the BMC box/ a Jaguar Moss Box Suffices, likewise the diff can be a Jaguar Salsbury Type as in the MM's but one would use the Jaguar hubs and Pinion drive flange, the MM's axle flanges and pinion flange are Mack Truck sizes.

The front springs on all Daimler Darts 250's and Mk2 Jags are in my experience too light for brisk driving more suitable for Grandma to go do the shopping.

The factory fitted the 4.5 V/8 to the Dart Jaguar fitted it to a Mk10 and a Mk2 the latter was done for Jaguar probably in a similar fashion as Chrysler Rootes had I think from memory a relatively young bloke by the name of Jack Brabham who as a consultant fitted a Chrysler V/8 to a Sunbeam after Ford pulled the plug on supply of V/8's,somebody should ask Sir Jack about that story.

Jaguar sold most of the remaining complete and parts only 450 V/8's to the US from my memory it was a colleauge of the Huffacker America firm who had some deal with the Daimler importer.

Only a hand full of 450 V/8 engine parts were kept by Jaguar, there was at least 10 Daimler 450 Darts completed and there was definately some raced as 2.5 litre Darts in the UK, US and one in OZ, in their days nobody could see the difference between a 2.5 and a 4.5 once fitted not even the OZ road traffic authority can pick the difference of course the knowing can but how many people then had actually seen a Daimler 4.5 litre V/8.

The Alloy cylinder heads on the 450 V/8 are not interchangeable with the 250 V/8, the 450 V/8's ports and valve sizes are such that they flow far in excess of what's required for the initial purpose for which the 450 V/8 engines was used / to power a heavy sedan and propel it to over 125 MPH, how many American V/8's sedans in 1959 could do a real 125mph.

The 450 V/8 heads / the ports were from factory necked down "not ported out" much like as if a flow restrictor had been placed in the inlet ports, the necked down area of the ports were removed at first valve grind by the ones who knew, Bryson Industries often did this for clients who wanted more grunt from their MM's I have the engine from a politicians MM and it's heads were ported out, It was aleged the MM's engine made 300 HP when just the inlet ports were taken out, that was told to me by the late Merv Waggott.

The 450 V/8 Heads are capable of flowing more then many acclaimed heads from the 1970's on to probably to date, no wonder the std 450 V/8 in a Mk2 with 5 speed gearbox goes as quick as Turbo 6 Ford Falcon.

The standard one piece stainless 2.02" Inlet Valves, the Stainless Sodium filled exhaust valves at about 1.7" this Daimler 4.5 litre V/8 was in no way to remain a powerplant for a Big Sedan it had all the makings of a Super Power engine, what Daimler had in mind we will never really know one thing is for sure it was lighter then any 6 cylinder that either Jaguar or Daimler had ever made.

The Daimler V/8 4.5 litre engine with it's for time lightweight thin wall and immensely strong cast iron 5 main bearing engine block and lighweight alloy heads and inlet manifold it is dissapointing but not surprising that Jaguar killed it off.

Interesting thing a Daimler 4.5 litre V/8 fitted in place of a Jaguar XK engine the front of the Mk2 rose 3/4".

Why people want to pick on the Daimler V/8 and accuse it of being heavy is I think curious, if one want's to pick on a heavy engine go lift an MGB 1800cc 5 bearing engine or a 1980's Nissan/ Holden 3 litre 6.

Try lifting the cast iron 283 V/8 Chev engine or just it's heads or inlet manifold, it's broadcasted weight being far less then it really weighs, just the cast iron american Inlet manifolds weight as much as 2 x Daimler 450V/8 heads nah! the Daimler V/8 was too good for Jaguar and if ever an engine should be remade it's the Daimler 450 V/8 and it's not a stupid idea see the alloy block and headed BMC C Type engines one can buy today.

As for a similarity to any Triumph M/Cycle engine maybe the style of camfollower nothing else is even remotely similar in that Daimler V/8 and Triumph engine is as equally similar to other engines/ as a Caddy V/8 is to a Hillman Minx 4 cyl/ both Caddy V/8 and Hillman engine are OHV by pushrods.

nah! Turner started with a fresh sheet of paper and not even the Hemi combustion chamber can be said to be a Triumph thing, Triumphs had twin high cams and it could be said the Daimler V/8 was more like a Norton M/cycle engine in that the Norton had better then Triumph combustion chamber to ports angle thus made more easy power and had less total ign advance Norton head ports etc more like the Daimler then the Triumph. If you look at early Coventry Climax engine you can see one thing that Turner of sorts copied........

I believe the Turner V/8 especially the 4.5 litre V/8 should be acclaimed as one of if not the best V/8 ever made certainly a beautiful engine with all the right ingredients that made the at time other manufacturers green with envy.

Both engines in my opinion are so far removed from Turmers M/Cycle engines I don't get the drift as to why people want to be saying such things maybe it was used as a sales pitch in realtime.

Well if you could have alloy blocked XK engines? I've often wondered why more use wasn't made of the Daimler V8s in competition, presumably from what you say the weight told against them. They were used in hill climb cars, certainly the 2.5 and I believe there was at least one bigger engine used. Presumably they must have had some potential.



#32 Ray Bell

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 09:37

An interesting post and certainly something that won't be wiped from the thread...

I'm also interested to know, now that you've aroused my curiosity, about other things you mentioned:

The gearbox was from BMC? Presumably a C-series box, but it seems to me that it pre-dated their good 4-speed? Or was it mobile by that time?

Where did the rear axle come from?

And did it have a TR frame?

Love the stuff about the engine, I'm sure Peter Hitchin would be proud of you!

#33 Allan Lupton

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 10:16

Thankyou Veeeight for your thoughts, although at times I find you rather hard to follow - are you from the USofA?
I expect you didn't quite appreciate that I was writing about SPs in and just after their period.

I won't take exception to having my experience called mythology. Moreover I had a great deal of time for the 450 engine in its car but that was not what I was writing about.
I'm surprised that Daimler supplied Nyloc big-end nuts as most of us would not have used them then (or, in my case, now): the split-pinned 12-point nuts of the SP250 were more normal.
Anyone who has studied valve-gear design and Turner's life and times can see that the Riley Nine he had influenced the Triumph Speed Twin and the need to use one camshaft (rather than Riley's three) in the V-8 led him to the Armstrong-Siddeley solution. Remember he was working in Coventry where those influences were all around him.

To answer Ray Bell, the gearbox was more or less a Triumph TR in a different casing.
The rear axle was a Salisbury 4HA
The frame was very similar to the TR as was the front suspension (A&A).

#34 Ray Bell

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 11:15

With nonchalant mentions of Bryson Industries and Merv Waggott...

I think he's in Australia.

#35 Tim Murray

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 11:26

His profile includes his location.

#36 Allan Lupton

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 12:11

His profile includes his location.

But not his origin - he seems to be more into USofA-speak than most Australians I have met, hence my question.

#37 RCH

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 12:54

I've never understood the usual comment that Jaguar thought the Daimler engines were better than theirs so they killed them off. They wouldn't have been so stupid surely?

#38 D-Type

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 13:24

I thought it was because they were significantly more costly. But given the internecine arguments within British Leyland and its successors, it wouldn't surprise me at all.

Edited by D-Type, 02 November 2010 - 13:26.


#39 Allan Lupton

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 13:35

I've never understood the usual comment that Jaguar thought the Daimler engines were better than theirs so they killed them off. They wouldn't have been so stupid surely?

There is always a conspiracy theory isn't there?
They kept the 250 engined saloons going through a couple of facelifts which shows their real view of that engine - i.e. that it was better than the 2.4 litre XK engine, so they would use it.
The 450-engined Mk X wouldn't have offered a great deal of improvement for a car that didn't sell well but the XJ6 could have been designed as an XD8 with 2.5 and 4.5 litre V8s instead of the 2.8 and 4.2 litre sixes, so maybe the engines were actually not better (and as Duncan writes, were probably more expensive to produce).

Edited by Allan Lupton, 02 November 2010 - 13:37.


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#40 RCH

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 14:23

There is always a conspiracy theory isn't there?
They kept the 250 engined saloons going through a couple of facelifts which shows their real view of that engine - i.e. that it was better than the 2.4 litre XK engine, so they would use it.
The 450-engined Mk X wouldn't have offered a great deal of improvement for a car that didn't sell well but the XJ6 could have been designed as an XD8 with 2.5 and 4.5 litre V8s instead of the 2.8 and 4.2 litre sixes, so maybe the engines were actually not better (and as Duncan writes, were probably more expensive to produce).


It was probably down to production costs, presumably the required numbers would have needed more investment whereas they had been thumping out XKs for years. As a 14 year old in 1963 I was looking forward to a 4.5 V8 Mark II to show the Yanks a thing or two!

#41 Veeeight

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 15:24

An interesting post and certainly something that won't be wiped from the thread...

I'm also interested to know, now that you've aroused my curiosity, about other things you mentioned:

The gearbox was from BMC? Presumably a C-series box, but it seems to me that it pre-dated their good 4-speed? Or was it mobile by that time?

Where did the rear axle come from?

And did it have a TR frame?

Love the stuff about the engine, I'm sure Peter Hitchin would be proud of you!


It's probable that the gearbox was a mongrel, a type of crossbreed that was similar to the Triumph and also similar to the Healey 4 speed "not the old Mowog C Type box" however I'm not certain about the gearbox internals only to know they were somewhat fragile behind anything with a lot of power, unlike the Daimler 250 V/8 sedan 4 speed which was a Moss Box ex Jaguar, later variant with slimline bumbers had the Jag all synchro box.

I believe the Daimler Dart/ SP250 4 speed gearbox was probably a Triumph BMC cross that later became the all synchro gearbox as used in MGB's there would be Daimler SP enthusiasts that can clarify the gearbox origins.

As for the Chassis it's to me a chassis made/supplied under licence from Triumph, a TR3 with different outriggers and body mount points A,B, C, spec cars and as they went on from A to C the chassis was stiffened and scuttle braces and pillar reinforcements were done all good stuff and improved the handling and eliminated most of the scuttle shake.

The rear axle was to my memory as for the Triumph TR3/4 which would be similar but not same as the early Jaguar 2.4 Mk2 2HA assembly, I'm not aware of the 4HA with Thornton Powr-Lok limited-slip being fitted from the Factory but I know it's done by some enthusiasts so there may have been a variation of rear axle types through the A,B,C variants?

A Daimler SP owner may have some pics of their vehicle rear axles and gearboxes.

Was that Geoghan's Daimler chassis number - 104029?

Daimler a Winner of Bathurst 6 hour race by 20 miles, 30 September, 1962, what other cars raced in that race?

I believe the Geoghan's Daimler had some for a time stiff competition in that 6 hour race and for those not converse with Bathurst Track it is no easy feat to win there and it was probably the toughest race that a Daimler SP ever raced in, one can be sure that Geoghan's car had a baffled oil sump so as to control oil surge.

Whilst I'm here the Daimler 4.5 litre V/8 engine most definately had Nyloc nuts for the big end bolts this can be clarified by looking at a MM workshop manual publication E.1016/2, page A.16

Most people who have had to do with the XK Jag and others conrod castle nuts and split cotter pins would know the pins often from the slightest movement wear and break off, not good things, toss the split cotter pins away and make sure the nuts are torqued properly and they will not come off, why Turner elected to go with the Nyloc Nuts for the 4.5 V/8 is one of those mysteries we will probably never know the answer to but it might just be that the 4.5 V/8 was planned to be a competition sports car type engine and based on experiences with castle nuts and the pins breaking off turner believed the Nylocs to be the thing to use, incidently Nyloc is a brand name and unfortunately to day they are imitated and the cheaper imitations come in only one grade where as the genuine Nylocs come in 2 grades, I don't use nylocs on conrod bolts even as replacements on the Daimler 4.5 V/8, I have used the Jaguar series three 4.2 conrod nuts also ARP nuts. The Daimler 4.5 V/8 Conrod is a piece of art.

#42 lanciaman

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 22:35

The engine and other moving bits aside, this car was clearly designed by a committee of blind men

#43 Ian G

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 02:05

The engine and other moving bits aside, this car was clearly designed by a committee of blind men


I agree,some strange decisions in the 1950-60's British car industry where the class system,promotion on seniority and the Unions combined to really destroy a great industry.

#44 Ray Bell

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 08:11

I think there were other good ingredients, apart from the engine...

It had disc brakes, not many 1960 cars had them, at least worldwide. British cars led the way there. And the styling was perhaps a little too late in the 'fin' era to be appropriate, but what of the Alpine? I'd imagine the gearbox would only have been done that way to make it stronger, so that can't be all bad, and the rear end was tried and proved.

So what's missing? Independent rear end? Only one or two sports cars of the class and the day had them anyway. Low volume production catered to by having fibreglass cladding (as did the Corvette), not too bad at all.

#45 Allan Lupton

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 10:47

It's probable that the gearbox was a mongrel, a type of crossbreed that was similar to the Triumph and also similar to the Healey 4 speed "not the old Mowog C Type box" however I'm not certain about the gearbox internals only to know they were somewhat fragile behind anything with a lot of power, unlike the Daimler 250 V/8 sedan 4 speed which was a Moss Box ex Jaguar, later variant with slimline bumbers had the Jag all synchro box.

I believe the Daimler Dart/ SP250 4 speed gearbox was probably a Triumph BMC cross that later became the all synchro gearbox as used in MGB's there would be Daimler SP enthusiasts that can clarify the gearbox origins.
You may believe that, but as I wrote the internals were Triumph. That is not a matter of belief, as I used parts bought from Triumph spares stores for rebuilding SP gearboxes and they were the same, but cheaper to buy

As for the Chassis it's to me a chassis made/supplied under licence from Triumph, a TR3 with different outriggers and body mount points A,B, C, spec cars and as they went on from A to C the chassis was stiffened and scuttle braces and pillar reinforcements were done all good stuff and improved the handling and eliminated most of the scuttle shake.
You may believe that, but both Triumph and Daimler frames were bought-out items (supplied by RO as I remember)
The rear axle was to my memory as for the Triumph TR3/4 which would be similar but not same as the early Jaguar 2.4 Mk2 2HA assembly, I'm not aware of the 4HA with Thornton Powr-Lok limited-slip being fitted from the Factory but I know it's done by some enthusiasts so there may have been a variation of rear axle types through the A,B,C variants?
You may believe that, but the axles were, as I wrote, Salisbury 4HA and did not change for B or C spec.. Thornton Powr-Lok was not fitted to the axles for the SP of course.

A Daimler SP owner may have some pics of their vehicle rear axles and gearboxes.

Whilst I'm here the Daimler 4.5 litre V/8 engine most definately had Nyloc nuts for the big end bolts this can be clarified by looking at a MM workshop manual publication E.1016/2, page A.16

Most people who have had to do with the XK Jag and others conrod castle nuts and split cotter pins would know the pins often from the slightest movement wear and break off, not good things, toss the split cotter pins away and make sure the nuts are torqued properly and they will not come off, why Turner elected to go with the Nyloc Nuts for the 4.5 V/8 is one of those mysteries we will probably never know the answer to but it might just be that the 4.5 V/8 was planned to be a competition sports car type engine and based on experiences with castle nuts and the pins breaking off turner believed the Nylocs to be the thing to use, incidently Nyloc is a brand name and unfortunately to day they are imitated and the cheaper imitations come in only one grade where as the genuine Nylocs come in 2 grades, I don't use nylocs on conrod bolts even as replacements on the Daimler 4.5 V/8, I have used the Jaguar series three 4.2 conrod nuts also ARP nuts. The Daimler 4.5 V/8 Conrod is a piece of art.
Splitpins (cotter pins are something totally different here) were good engineering practice in 1950s/60s and anyway properly tightened nuts will stay there without the splitpins which are only a second line of defence. Nyloc/Aerotight/etc are useful when access for splitpins or wire-locking is not possible, but they tempt the fitter to reuse them which is wrong.


Edited by Allan Lupton, 03 November 2010 - 10:49.


#46 Veeeight

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 16:10

[color="#0000FF"]

Hi Allan,

To me this is not the Forum for Daimler SP's etc and I only ever came here recently because I was told of some misconceptions about the Daimler V/8's on this Forum but Forums can go anywhere and I suppose to some it's good fun rather then good information.

Cotter pins your most likely thinking of as being different to split cotter pins, Pom terminology Cotter Pins were used for things like pushbike pedal crank to shaft securing.


Castellated nuts and Pom split pins or US split cotter pins was the terminology used in OZ in the bad old days before TV and of 10 pound Poms.

Split Cotter pins and Split Pins explained,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_pin

A split pin (UK usage) / cotter pin (USA usage)

To go argue about pins here is the place one can do it,

http://www.screwfix....?threadID=74373

As for the rear axles Salisbury 2H standard duty was most likely the type fitted to SP's if there was ever a 4H axle fitted it would show up in a Daimler Dart/SP service manual or parts manual of which I don't have but I'm hoping somebody will show us the actual writings from Daimler as to all the SP Diff Types used.

The 2H diff and the 4H axle assembly to most people even the experienced when put alongside each other look the same, for instance a Jaguar Mk2, 2.4,3.4 originally came with a 2H as time went along the 4H became standard, similar thing for the MKV11 to MkIX, the MKIX had the 4H as did the Daimler MM's, 4H is the heavy duty.


It does seem logical that the Daimler Dart SP Chassis was made outside of Daimler and most likely by the same maker as for the Triumph TR's I can't imagine there was no agreement between Triumph and Daimler so would have to be Triumph Designed Chassis, I personally would like to know more factual things about a lot of old Pom cars but some of the information is dead and buried what's left is fading away.

I'm of the opinion the SP gearbox was a in sense a cocked up but workable thing that may or may not have had Triumph gears inside whatever the gears the box in my mind is something different to what your explaining, whether it was later to become the all Synchro MGB or the Healey box does not matter it can not take the grunt of a worked 2.5 V/8 and most definitely not a 450 V/8, would be interesting to sight documents pics that show the boxes and the parts view and numbers.

Having said the Daimler box will not take the grunt etc I know of people having Toyota G/Boxes behind Jaguar V/12's, I blew those up behind Mk2's but not whilst driving to the shops.


I'm still believing there was a tie up with the boxes Triumph BMC Daimler, the MGC gearbox seems to ring some bells if this also from Triumph makes sense as it's the same box as the MGB all synchro, Triumph was absorbed by Leyland in 1960? so perhaps the Daimler SP gearbox was conceived in a sense by geographics and pots of tea a BMC or Triumph box?

Kind Regards

Veeeight


#47 Veeeight

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 16:29

The engine and other moving bits aside, this car was clearly designed by a committee of blind men


Hi Lanciaman,

I would seem to me your a Lancia man?

Was there not a Horizontal opposed Lancia engine with Hemi heads made by Lancia under licence from Daimler?

I seem to remember reading something and seeing pics many years go ago about Lancia and Daimler being in bed with heads and things.

Regards
Veeeight



#48 Allan Lupton

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 17:53

Was there not a Horizontal opposed Lancia engine with Hemi heads made by Lancia under licence from Daimler?

I seem to remember reading something and seeing pics many years go ago about Lancia and Daimler being in bed with heads and things.


Since the flat-4 Lancia (Fulvia) had its origins in the CEMSA-Caproni which was about some 10 years before the Fulvia (and SP250) appeared, the chronology is hard to reconcile.

#49 Allan Lupton

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 18:09

Castellated nuts and Pom split pins or US split cotter pins was the terminology used in OZ in the bad old days before TV and of 10 pound Poms.

When we had an Empire and Australia was part of it you used £ for currency, Imperial measure for dimensions, distances, weights and volumes and you spoke English (rather than American) with a local accent.
I don't remember your lot using USofA terminology, even in the 1980s when I was there on business, except when maintaining US-built aeroplanes (sorry, airplanes!), when of course the manuals were written that way.
Oh and at least the 10 pound Poms wanted to go there, unlike most of the early migrants. :|

#50 Ray Bell

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 20:18

Originally posted by Allan Lupton
When we had an Empire and Australia was part of it you used £ for currency, Imperial measure for dimensions, distances, weights and volumes and you spoke English (rather than American) with a local accent.
I don't remember your lot using USofA terminology, even in the 1980s when I was there on business, except when maintaining US-built aeroplanes (sorry, airplanes!), when of course the manuals were written that way.
Oh and at least the 10 pound Poms wanted to go there, unlike most of the early migrants.


Yeah, there was a lot of that...

Those servicemen, however, when sent here to run the colony often wanted to stay when they found the local girls inviting and the challenge of living here inspiring enough for them to put up with the grandeur of the place.

And back to the subject, and I'm happy (as the OP) to see this divergence into the details of the car, I cannot for the life of me see why BMC gearboxes would have mixed their genes with Triumph stuff. They weren't bought-in items at BMC, I'm quite sure, and unlikely at Standard too.

Did you ever determine where veeeight was from?