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Daimler SP250s on Australian circuits?


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#51 fredeuce

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 21:08

Here is a pic I took at the Mallala Historics in 1996. Unfortunately I don't have the programme so can not identify the entrant/driver. Anyone out there able to help with this?

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#52 Ray Bell

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 21:30

Veeeight @ Nov 3 2010, 17:
Was there not a Horizontal opposed Lancia engine with Hemi heads made by Lancia under licence from Daimler?

I seem to remember reading something and seeing pics many years go ago about Lancia and Daimler being in bed with heads and things.


I cannot find the post to which this belongs... has it been deleted or edited out?

When it comes to angled rockers pushing on valves that are opposed to each other and forming a 'hemispherical' combustion chamber, then there is a certain post-war lineage to that:

Chrysler used this system in development of a V12 aircraft engine that was stillborn... then carried on experimenting with it on a flathead six with a new head.

1948 - Peugeot 203 began a fifty or sixty year association of this marque with this layout.

1951 - Chrysler introduced their V8s using it.

1959? - Daimler came in.

1963-4? - Renault 8 Gordini with what looks like a head from an SP250.

1964 - Chrysler re-introduced the layout in their modern day 'Hemi 426'.

There may be others, including the Lancia, which I've never seen. Or I've forgotten. Fifties Gordinis might well have gone that way, as well as - perhaps - Panhards and other French makes.

So I don't see collaboration between Lancia and Daimler being quite as relevant as it might have been between Daimler and Chrysler or Daimler and Peugeot.

#53 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 22:34

While some old Pommy bike engines used them I have never seen a remotely modern car engine using something as archaic as a split pin in a rod bolt. A proper bolt for the application torqued correctly will never come undone. This seems 20s technology in a 60s engine.

#54 Veeeight

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 01:06

I cannot find the post to which this belongs... has it been deleted or edited out?

When it comes to angled rockers pushing on valves that are opposed to each other and forming a 'hemispherical' combustion chamber, then there is a certain post-war lineage to that:

Chrysler used this system in development of a V12 aircraft engine that was stillborn... then carried on experimenting with it on a flathead six with a new head.

1948 - Peugeot 203 began a fifty or sixty year association of this marque with this layout.

1951 - Chrysler introduced their V8s using it.

1959? - Daimler came in.

1963-4? - Renault 8 Gordini with what looks like a head from an SP250.

1964 - Chrysler re-introduced the layout in their modern day 'Hemi 426'.

There may be others, including the Lancia, which I've never seen. Or I've forgotten. Fifties Gordinis might well have gone that way, as well as - perhaps - Panhards and other French makes.

So I don't see collaboration between Lancia and Daimler being quite as relevant as it might have been between Daimler and Chrysler or Daimler and Peugeot.


Rileys 1.5, 2.5, twin high cams and pushrod activated rockers, anybody in OZ have a Riley gearbox for sale?

Oneday I might be so inclined to search through 50 years of auto mags for the Lancia Daimler cylinder head article/story the more I think about it I'm not certain but to say there was a story and pics maybe it was a head design that Daimler had not used?? I have a feeling there was also an article about the Vauxhall that Daimler had installed the 2.5 V/8 into and the MGB that MG installed the Daimler V/8 into, too many things to remember but somebody might.

I have one of those Hemi Toyota V/8's a bloke gave it to me, interesting that Toyota bothered but it looked nice so i brought it home and stripped it down.


#55 Veeeight

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 01:29

While some old Pommy bike engines used them I have never seen a remotely modern car engine using something as archaic as a split pin in a rod bolt. A proper bolt for the application torqued correctly will never come undone. This seems 20s technology in a 60s engine.


for whatever the reason Jaguar used it in their XK engine until from memory the introduction of the 4.2 variant I think Jaguar inherited the idea from standard when they bought the side valve standard engine and just kept on with the idea I always thought it was a stupid idea / years gone when I stripped Jag engines and found the broken pins in the sump and damaged pistons skirts.


The idea was stupid from a torqueing view too in that one had to take the nut down further or let if off to get the pin through, ok for axle drive shaft nuts.


#56 ozdude

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 01:32

Lee, I can attest to the archaic practice of 'split pinned' big end nuts on my '63 700cc Royal Enfield.

Getting the angle of the pin to align with a slot on the big end bolt and miss the crank web was too big a challenge for my teen mechanicing. A tail of the split pin sheared off, entered the oil pump and... one rod through the cases.

Apparently not an uncommon occurrence. OT, the Enfield heads were also hemi; but not so unusual on a bike engine.

I believe the later Humber Super Snipes also had the heavier diff assy like the Jag Mk IX.

Cheers, Bill D

#57 Veeeight

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 01:35

I think there were other good ingredients, apart from the engine...

It had disc brakes, not many 1960 cars had them, at least worldwide. British cars led the way there. And the styling was perhaps a little too late in the 'fin' era to be appropriate, but what of the Alpine? I'd imagine the gearbox would only have been done that way to make it stronger, so that can't be all bad, and the rear end was tried and proved.

So what's missing? Independent rear end? Only one or two sports cars of the class and the day had them anyway. Low volume production catered to by having fibreglass cladding (as did the Corvette), not too bad at all.


Daimler SP250 a Winner of Bathurst 6 hour race by 20 miles, 30 September, 1962, how good was that?

what other cars raced in that race?


#58 Allan Lupton

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 08:46

The idea was stupid from a torqueing view too in that one had to take the nut down further or let if off to get the pin through, ok for axle drive shaft nuts.[/color]

Whoever taught you that was the way to do it?
No wonder you think badly of split-pinning.
Do it correctly and it works well.


#59 cooper997

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 11:09

Daimler SP250 a Winner of Bathurst 6 hour race by 20 miles, 30 September, 1962, how good was that?

what other cars raced in that race?


There was 6 Divisions in the 1962 "Bathurst 6 hour Classic" (to use it's official name). The Daimler was in Division F - Production Sports Cars - £1501 to £2000. Others in this division included a couple of TR4's and 4 MGA Twin Cams. I've posted earlier about this, but there was some controversy on how the Daimler managed to get an entry because the price cutoff point for the race was £2000. Jim Abbott of Autosportsman magazine had words in one of his editorial stating that it was at least £200 dearer to buy, than the 6 hour's quoted £1995 SP250 price tag. He should have known because he was racing one at other events from around mid-1962.

Please note that I have called them 'Divisions' because that's how they were published, not as the typical 'Class'.

Other Divisions had NSUs, Morris', Renaults, Studebakers, etc.

Stephen

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#60 Veeeight

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 14:05

Whoever taught you that was the way to do it?
No wonder you think badly of split-pinning.
Do it correctly and it works well.


Winners are Grinners, losers don't cut it neither do pretenders,

I was paid for making losers into winners and this paid work was to ensure people my clients including some with hard heads and or pot heads doubting thomas's too had an engine and or car that was to better suit the situation then might have been from the factory engine, I did this work in OZ, US, and for some folk in NZ, I'm a Qualified Motor Mechanic with 48 years hands on experience, in my latter years I have been a consultant to the Automotive Industry in the Field of Classic Cars this included trips to the US to teach skills to the ones who wanted to learn about foreign classic cars.

I still help people on call in the US and Canada with their Classics and I rarely get into chat on forums as I don't have the time at moment I'm resting up after some 70 hour week stints and it's raining so I'm here.

Who taught me?

I did my apprenticeship and traineeship on Sydney's Northern Beaches in Rootes Group, GM, Leyland agencies, I was after a time out of my time the Triumph and Jaguar Service Manager at a Sydney Leyland Dealer, plus a lot more.

Time has been the best teacher, I built and raced in OZ mostly Jaguars, Falcons, with race success's and a few records along the way, but my best attribute was not racing as It was difficut financially and I had things like Ski Boats with bored and stroked 4.2 Jag engines, M/cylces raced them too, as I worked on others cars I had to put racing and other games on hold.

Now I'm retired and have more personal time apart from buidling things like Daimler Mk2's with hot 4.5 V/8's, MM Lowlites with supercharged SOHC Nuffield Engine I'm now working on bringing an American Historic E Type out of retirement for 2011 but water skiing is not on my agenda, hate to think about that falling off ski's at speed.

Then there is that Triumph TR8 sitting there waiting for it's uprated engine,an awesome little car deserving of more praise then it ever got.

I have stacks to do for immediate famiy and a couple of friends and will do so whilst ever the fires in the belly.

I built race engines for others including m/cycle engines and over many years had the pleasure of in general a good lifestyle as result of my jobs, today our son a third generation motor mechanic is enjoying racing when can his Jaguar and kicking the butt of many much younger machines and consitantly winning his class over the last 3 years against some of the big cheque book racers he does this in a modified 100% legal for a particular class a road rego'd 1969 Jaguar XJ6 with a refurbished hand me down engine that I used in an E Type for a time in the 70's and the XJ6 does an easy 1.55 around Sydneys Eastern Creek which is a good time for it's limited modifications.

From the 1960's to mid 70's I with my late Dad manufactured in house and had other machined or cast outside "performance enhancements" for many British Marque cars but mainly Jaguars, the Jaguar components were exported to the UK and to the US this included such things as handling option kits, baffled sump kits, XK 4.5 litre piston kits, 4.9 XK engine kits,hard face welded then ground lobe camshafts, fabricated triple SU manifolds for B Type Jaguar heads and much more including steel flywheels,adapater plates for gearbox conversions, BSA B25 and B50 Camshafts for British Motor cross riders, Norton 1040cc kits, High capacity high volume gear oil pumps for XK engines, today some of the components and or concepts still survive in that others have copied others in the 1980's bought the concept rights and blueprints.

Hindsight is probably a good thing perhaps to have spent 48 years with Pommie shit b....s was to say the least was difficult so much easier to go play with other Marques the dissapointing thing has to me always been the knocking of Pom cars and shite like "Joseph Lucas Prince of Darkness" I have up to 65 years old Lucas components that still work fine but still one hears such crap about Lucas and I'm almost certain somebody is going to tell of how their Mini Starter motor burnt out 5 times, how every time it rained their Mini stopped, surprised you haven't' told us about the Prince of Darkness Allan.

I was told of a forum where there was somebody slagging off at Daimlers V/8's, pity I thought read the forum posts and made some replies.

I could say go sit on your Pommie Split Pin Buddy but I won't........

#61 Ray Bell

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 14:07

Oh yes, the Humbers of the fifties and sixties had the hemi-head by pushrod arrangment too...

Should have remembered them.

Their diff wasn't a Salisbury, however. It had a removable nose piece, just as BMC used, but nothing like BMC's. It is a coincidence, I guess, that a BMC axle (from an A110, for instance) will fit into a Humber (when they've broken their diff for the umpteenth time) with changes only to the spring perches and the wheel nuts.

Everything else is right... tail shaft length, universal flange, handbrake and hydraulic lines, overall axle width. The wheel nut problem is taken care of by getting nuts from a Triumph 2000.

#62 Veeeight

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 14:15

There was 6 Divisions in the 1962 "Bathurst 6 hour Classic" (to use it's official name). The Daimler was in Division F - Production Sports Cars - £1501 to £2000. Others in this division included a couple of TR4's and 4 MGA Twin Cams. I've posted earlier about this, but there was some controversy on how the Daimler managed to get an entry because the price cutoff point for the race was £2000. Jim Abbott of Autosportsman magazine had words in one of his editorial stating that it was at least £200 dearer to buy, than the 6 hour's quoted £1995 SP250 price tag. He should have known because he was racing one at other events from around mid-1962.

Please note that I have called them 'Divisions' because that's how they were published, not as the typical 'Class'.

Other Divisions had NSUs, Morris', Renaults, Studebakers, etc.

Stephen


That's interesting stuff I reckon the majority of people looking from the outside in would have seen the Daimler as a winner but one wonders why when there are rules that some people can get around them and protests have no affect, still happens happened recently in a an OZ NSW 2010 Supersprint series, class rules stipulated no spoilers but the organisers refused to enforce the rules, one NSW club it seems is often above the rules.

Studebakers, Bill Slattery who raced them at Mount Panorama is the President of car club, Bill must be about 83 years old and was still racing gokarts a couple of years ago.


#63 lanciaman

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 18:16

"Then there is that Triumph TR8 sitting there waiting for it's uprated engine,an awesome little car deserving of more praise then it ever got."

I like that notion. A V8 in a fair looking car has great appeal. I was very fond of my Sunbeam Tiger Mk1A. Even the idea of a V8 engine swap in an MGB is appealing. But the Daimler was a plug ugly car to begin with and putting a V8 in it was the equivalent of giving a boob job to an horsefaced maiden. (And I mean no disrespect to those who admire the Daimler's performance and horsefaced maidens.)



#64 Veeeight

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 22:22

"Then there is that Triumph TR8 sitting there waiting for it's uprated engine,an awesome little car deserving of more praise then it ever got."

I like that notion. A V8 in a fair looking car has great appeal. I was very fond of my Sunbeam Tiger Mk1A. Even the idea of a V8 engine swap in an MGB is appealing. But the Daimler was a plug ugly car to begin with and putting a V8 in it was the equivalent of giving a boob job to an horsefaced maiden. (And I mean no disrespect to those who admire the Daimler's performance and horsefaced maidens.)


The Tigers Wow!

It's hard to explain to the young ones just how cars from long gone by comparison to today had such an affect on young people, today it's all normal and mundane to most young people even the nasty wee Hyundai's kick along and would blow the doors of the real Mini Cooper S also young people today are not really by comparison to years gone enthusiastic about cars.

Things like Tigers, Darts, XK's, E Types, Pontiac GTO's, Jag Mk2 3.8's and their impact on teenagers probably more/ they were crumpet pullers and have become legends and most if not all rightly so of course there were other cars and I'm just mentioning a few that excited me.

MG's, Healeys, of course wonderful things too.

I think your comment on the Daimler was a wee harsh but I laughed, I agree however the Daimler Dart etc was not the most wonderful looking car then but because of it's unique looks always had an appeal that was sort of wonderfully brutish.

When I first saw a Daimler SP drive up the road towards me at full song I was impressed I have told this story many times, I was an apprentice in a Rootes Dealership, almost every day I would walk a ways to get lunch, one day I heard rubber being laid on the bitumen and the sound of a V/8 working hard it was a metallic light blue Daimler SP V/8 coming up the road and from full revs in 2nd gear dropping into third gear and accelerating on before on the brakes and back to 2nd to take a turn, out of site I could hear it revving out in 2nd then backing off to a stop.

A later inspection of that same Daimler revealed it had a comlete Lukey dual exhaust exhaust system and according to the owner this vehicle was used by Lukey as a pattern for their Daimler Exhaust, for those that don't know Lukey was a sports exhaust maker in OZ, Old Farts would often be cursing those "noisy Lukey Mufflers" mostly on young persons old Holdens that had been lowered by cutting the front springs and lowering blocks fitted to the rear, wheels for some reason were almost always painted white, the older Holden ehthusiast maybe a young tradesman who had more $'s would have a nice paint job and chrome wide wheels, thumpy bumpy cams, triple SU's,cast iron Myers ex Headers, or Sonic tube extractors.

Len Lukey was race car driver and Lukey Mufflers was a household name in OZ.


There were a few V/8's roaring about the streets of Sydney's Northern Beaches but none from memory that made that awesome Daimler V/8 sound, the Lukey or other sports exhaust just amplified the already unique Daimler Hemi sound.

I saw a couple of relatively new Sunbeam Tigers that were private imports and one RHD from Rootes but they were not available off the showroom floor in OZ, one had to know somebody to get such things that were not for whatever the reason imported to OZ this was things like Tigers, TR8's most of course went to the US.


#65 Allan Lupton

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 08:20

QUOTE (Veeeight @ Nov 4 2010, 02:29) *
The idea was stupid from a torqueing view too in that one had to take the nut down further or let if off to get the pin through, ok for axle drive shaft nuts.[/color]

Whoever taught you that was the way to do it?
No wonder you think badly of split-pinning.
Do it correctly and it works well.

Please read the question.

Never, ever, over-tighten or back off a nut to get the split pin in.

Edited by Allan Lupton, 05 November 2010 - 08:22.


#66 Ray Bell

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 10:33

And that's why you have split pin holes at 90° in the bolt and at 60° in the castellated nut?

Of course, why didn't I think of that?

#67 seldo

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 12:09

And that's why you have split pin holes at 90° in the bolt and at 60° in the castellated nut?

Of course, why didn't I think of that?

Judging from the reaction, one would think he had had his nuts castellated.... ;)

#68 Allan Lupton

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 12:46

And that's why you have split pin holes at 90° in the bolt and at 60° in the castellated nut?

Of course, why didn't I think of that?

and for increments less than that you file or grind the face of the nut (or washer).
Or for the real engineer's solution, don't use pre-drilled bolts - the hole is then in exactly the right place both rotationally and axially.

#69 Ray Bell

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 14:47

Go with the real engineers, Alan...

And don't ask Seldo what Col Wear's solution might have been!











A spot of arc weld, perhaps?

#70 smeetsie

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 02:14

[quote name='fredeuce' date='Nov 4 2010, 07:38' post='4684230']
Here is a pic I took at the Mallala Historics in 1996. Unfortunately I don't have the programme so can not identify the entrant/driver. Anyone out there able to help with this?

The Daimler SP250 shown was owned, restored and raced by Neil Sullivan. Neil ran the car in Adelaide, but also at Sandown and Winton historic meetings.

Used a TR6 gearbox. Lovely car....lots of potential.

Collectable Classics (Mike Finnis) finished up selling it.

Neil had imported several SP250's from the USA. They were quite reasonably priced from what I recall.

Pete S

#71 seldo

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 02:25

Go with the real engineers, Alan...

And don't ask Seldo what Col Wear's solution might have been!


A spot of arc weld, perhaps?

Unkind - and far from the truth :)

#72 Ray Bell

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 06:12

Originally posted by smeetsie
.....The Daimler SP250 shown was owned, restored and raced by Neil Sullivan. Neil ran the car in Adelaide, but also at Sandown and Winton historic meetings.

Used a TR6 gearbox. Lovely car....lots of potential.

Collectable Classics (Mike Finnis) finished up selling it.

Neil had imported several SP250's from the USA. They were quite reasonably priced from what I recall.


Nice information, Pete...

So they obviously didn't race here 'in the period'. Thanks for that.

#73 bradbury west

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Posted 10 November 2010 - 13:43

ISTR that Classic Cars had a good piece on the Daimler V8s a while back, filed here somewhere. The view was that Donald Stokes was so afraid of the qualities of the engines, esp the 4.5 which wiped the floor with their mk10, that he ordered production to be ended and all unused parts to be buried under concrete somewhere on their site, purely, it was seen by those there and in the know at the time, as an act of malevolence, such was the alleged nature of the man.

I recall stories in period of bad chassis flexing on the early SPs, and very poor weather protecting, this from the Traffic Police in Leeds, a large city in the north of England, who ran several as patrol cars, but they loved them as they went like stink compared to the A99/110s or MGAs, and anything was better than the old Wolseley 6/90s, as recounted by one of their number.

Chris Skeaping raced a very quick SP over here in the mid 60s, very wide wheels and arch extensions. I remember going down to Brands one day and he flew past on the road going down , running in some bits apparently. In view of comments earlier, perhaps he had a 4.5 fitted

Roger Lund

#74 cooper997

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 08:27

Here's a link to some rare colour photos of the 2 SP250s used by the Geoghegan's and the Abbott/Brunninghausen car. Including a rare under bonnet shot of the Harry Firth prepared ex Abbott car when run by Max B and described in an earlier post by Paul Hamilton.

http://autopics.com....0&x=-255&y=-136

The red #3 Geoghegan Warwick Farm photo is probably from the 30/7/61 Australian GT Championship meeting.

Stephen

#75 ellrosso

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 21:32

Another shot of the Whitelaw SP250 at Surfers 19678323_P_250LM_67-lo_zps6d881928.jpg



#76 275 GTB-4

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 22:47

Another shot of the Whitelaw SP250 at Surfers 19678323_P_250LM_67-lo_zps6d881928.jpg


Bill Brown in the LM250? Brian Foley in the Broadspeed?, Skelton in the Sprite?

#77 ellrosso

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Posted 09 June 2014 - 23:53

Bob Holden/Don Holland in the Lwt S, Foley/French in the Midget, Whitelaw/Woolf/Ganderton in the Daimler and Greg Cusack teamed with Bill Brown in the Ferrari



#78 cooper997

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 03:55

Earlier in this thread John Medley mentions Virginia Lighezzolo's SP250.

Here she is from the pages of Aug 62 RCN, 8/7/62 Lakeside meeting report. The report mentions her taking second to the Peter Kinnane Sprite in one race.

image.jpg
image hosting 12mb

The 1967 Surfers Paradise Speedweek programme doesn't reveal the colour of the Whitelaw SP250 from what I can see. It was in the Improved Production over 2000cc class for the 12 Hour. The only others listed in the class being the Thorp Cobra and Ross Bond Healey.

Stephen

#79 275 GTB-4

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 08:38

Bob Holden/Don Holland in the Lwt S, Foley/French in the Midget, Whitelaw/Woolf/Ganderton in the Daimler and Greg Cusack teamed with Bill Brown in the Ferrari


The #8 (Foley) and the indistinct but large rear window makes me think Broadspeed...do you have the program?

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#80 cooper997

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 10:47

Trying not to go off topic, the programme listing is "7 BMC (Aust) Pty Ltd John French/Brian Foley MG Midget 1366 & 8 BMC (Aust) Pty Ltd Bob Holden/Don Holland Morris Mini 'S 1366"

 

Stephen



#81 275 GTB-4

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 12:03

Trying not to go off topic, the programme listing is "7 BMC (Aust) Pty Ltd John French/Brian Foley MG Midget 1366 & 8 BMC (Aust) Pty Ltd Bob Holden/Don Holland Morris Mini 'S 1366"
 
Stephen


Stephen, please accept my sincere apologies for steering a thread off topic...my steering reactions never have been top notch...thanks (obviously, a time before Foles claimed #8)

#82 fredeuce

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Posted 10 June 2014 - 22:36

Digressing slightly but still Daimler 2.5 related , here is a link to my Kurtis Kraft midget replica powered by a Daimler 2.5 V8 . This is taken over at Collingrove Hillclimb. There is a second link but that wont attach for some reason but can be found doing a search for Kurtis Daimler.

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=ZaQeuMQfBuI

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



#83 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 11 June 2014 - 04:02

Digressing slightly but still Daimler 2.5 related , here is a link to my Kurtis Kraft midget replica powered by a Daimler 2.5 V8 . This is taken over at Collingrove Hillclimb. There is a second link but that wont attach for some reason but can be found doing a search for Kurtis Daimler.

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=ZaQeuMQfBuI

Looks good and sounds strong.

Maybe I will have to go run the Supermod there again. Though the hand clutch may be a problem!