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Jack Brabham doesn't believe in Webber any more, and you ?


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#1 nomeg1

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 17:53

Published in AutoHebdo today.

Jack Brabham, the triple World Champion thinks that Mark Webber will not be able to be World Champion this year any more, after his Korean's DNF leaving the lead to Alonso.
If the famous Australian was always supporting Webber, he thinks the title is not any more for his countryman : "The title would have meant so much for me and Australia, but I unfortunately think that he missed his chance last week-end", he said to the Australian Associated Press.

"I support him a 100% in his quest, but I do not think that he will be Champion this year or that he will be one day. He was 14 points ahead, and now behind. I think it will be very difficult. Mark his a very good pilot, but makes too many errors. I believe the blunder (bubu) he made in Korea had probably cost him the Championship".

It seems that Jack Brabham has suffered from the Australian's abandon, because that's not where he stopped : "Pilots like Alonso are young, and now Mark too old. He could perform an additional season, but will be too old for a young men's sport. He has to take it against pilots who are 21 or 22 years old. He has work ahead of himself; he has to finish before Alonso and Vettel. There is nothing less sure".

Webber said today in ToileF1 : "Of course I have good souvenirs from last year's GP here, it was a good race to win. We shall try to win it again, as it is a crucial step to the Championship, and we have to take the best of every possibility".

Now, what is the question ?
Are pilots over 30 too old for this sport ? If yes, why ? Concentration ? Motivation ? Muscular/physical ?

Is M. Brabham right in what he says, he's a triple World Champion (1959, 60, 66). Does he know something we don't ?




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#2 primer

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 19:02

Does he know something we don't ?


No.

Webber can still win the WDC, reliability is going to be crucial in these last couple of races. Fernando has this engine situation, a DNF for him and win for Webber and it's back on. No one can predict correctly how it is going to end, everyone's guesstimating. I feel both Webber and Lewis have better chance than Fernando, and this has nothing to do with their talent or driving abilities. We'll see.

#3 Seanspeed

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 19:26

No.

:lol: :up:

Really, like primer said, its all in the air still. A 14 point lead was never much to begin with, and being 11 points behind with a superior car isn't much either.

That said, I think the fact that Vettel is still within reach means that his teammate will be a bigger obstacle to the title than Alonso will. Alonso is beatable due to the Ferrari not being quite as fast as the Red Bull overall, but Vettel is gonna be tough. This would have been the case whether he crashed in Korea or not, though he's obviously in a much less comfortable position right now.

We'll see. But I dont think its ever fair to point at one single race and say thats where a driver won/lost a championship. There's 19 races and every single one awards the same amount of points.

#4 seltaeb

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 19:28

I think Jack is just stating the obvious, that the momentum has gone away from Webber, and that Mark missed a huge opportunity to kind of "seal the deal" in Korea. Imagine if Webber had kept it on track, even finished in 4th or 5th, and Vettel's engine blew. Alonso still would have won the race, but Webber would be a lot further ahead of Seb.

I really hope Mark wins the WDC, but I don't think the biggest hurdle is Ferrari right now. It's his own team.

#5 Vitesse2

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 19:33

Sir Jack's a wily old bird. This will be his way of letting Mark know that he's still backing him - the age comments are hilarious, considering that he won his third title at the age of forty and was still winning GPs against the likes of Stewart, Rindt and Ickx four years later!

The press everywhere seems to be putting a negative spin on what he said, but if you look at - for example - planet f1's piece, you can see that he's still very much hoping Webber can win it:

http://www.planet-f1...wn-his-chances-

#6 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 21:21

Sir Black Jack is correct.Mark has made too many mistakes, though that is Mark Webber. A bloody good honest racer. His best chance was this year and it is still not over, The Ferrari is using past their best engines and Mark could still win both races.
Jack was winning races in his 40s but in a different era when being smart was far more important.The team tells dumb but fast drivers what to do whereas in Jacks days he did it himself. Get rid of radios, telemetry and computerised cars and it is all different. These days outright speed is more important than being smart, though being smart will still win difficult races. Button is smarter than Hamilton, Mark is smarter then Vunderkid etc. Though if Vettel gives Mark some support it will help Marks cause. Massa has not generally got the pace to support Alonso, though next race could bely that!
Though next year Vettel will not have it all his own way as Webber will still be around and will still win races and score well presuming the car is capable.

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 30 October 2010 - 21:23.


#7 slideways

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 01:43

It was a DCesque mistake. Can't blame Sir Jack for losing confidence in the guy.

#8 WhiteBlue

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 04:38

Mark's lead in the championship always was owed to an extreme run of good luck and and his experience and not to superior speed. Alonso and Vettel had big reliability hits or bad luck with safety cars.

Webber made as many mistakes as the other contenders but he never DNFed for technical reasons. He even got away with a collision in Singapore where his tyre was almost pushed all the way from the wheel rim but did not give him a puncture. In Malaysian he ran into Hamilton without serious damage. Vettel and Hamilton in similar situations had no luck at all. Webber had four big collisions with competitors and only one DNF in Valencia from it. He did not have a single DNF from reliability.

To make an unforced error with DNF in Korea should be the end of his championship campaign unless he suddenly develops more speed than his team mate. For the last three months he only played the percentage game. He hasn't been the fastest man in qualifying for a long time. It is now Alonso who can afford to come second and third in the remaining races and still win the championship. Red Bull will not give Vettel's points to Webber in the last race unless he earns it by superior performance in Brazil and puts Vettel mathematically out of the championship.

Brabham is right. The chances for a Webber WDC are thin indeed.

#9 DILLIGAF

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Posted 31 October 2010 - 04:38

Sir Black Jack is correct.Mark has made too many mistakes, though that is Mark Webber. A bloody good honest racer. His best chance was this year and it is still not over, The Ferrari is using past their best engines and Mark could still win both races.
Jack was winning races in his 40s but in a different era when being smart was far more important.The team tells dumb but fast drivers what to do whereas in Jacks days he did it himself. Get rid of radios, telemetry and computerised cars and it is all different. These days outright speed is more important than being smart, though being smart will still win difficult races. Button is smarter than Hamilton, Mark is smarter then Vunderkid etc. Though if Vettel gives Mark some support it will help Marks cause. Massa has not generally got the pace to support Alonso, though next race could bely that!
Though next year Vettel will not have it all his own way as Webber will still be around and will still win races and score well presuming the car is capable.


:up:

#10 BrabJackham

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 09:13

Brab Jackham doesn't believe in JackBrabham any more :wave:

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

#11 Smile17

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 09:56

It's still up for grabs and nothing is decided yet. The difference is that Mark Webber will have to show himself now, he can't hide and just pick up points. Still he and also Alonso have everything in their own hands, unlike the rest who have to rely on others mistakes or bad days. Webber has a big advantage over Alonso and that's his superior car. Vettel has still got a realistic chance and might even get it. If Alonso finishes outside the poduim twice , he just needs to get infront of Webber to make up 25 points.

But more or less Brabham is right, I don't think Mark Webber is up for the job and he has given Alonso all he needs. (half a chance) And his teammate is on fire..

Still it would be amazing if Mark Webber won the WDC this year, he deserves it after all his bad luck. He rode very consistent and picked up a few good wins. The RedBull is superior this year and this might be his best chance ever.

Edited by Smile17, 01 November 2010 - 09:57.


#12 aditya-now

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 10:01

No.

Webber can still win the WDC, reliability is going to be crucial in these last couple of races. Fernando has this engine situation, a DNF for him and win for Webber and it's back on. No one can predict correctly how it is going to end, everyone's guesstimating. I feel both Webber and Lewis have better chance than Fernando, and this has nothing to do with their talent or driving abilities. We'll see.


:up:

Absolutely.

I don´t know what it is with these elder statesmen of the sport, Stewart believing the 2010 drivers are the best since the 60s, Brabham believing that now Webber has lost it. It´s not over until it´s over, and Jack Brabham should know that.

Seems to me that Stewart and Brabham are just suiting their own agenda.

#13 aditya-now

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 10:05

Sir Jack's a wily old bird. This will be his way of letting Mark know that he's still backing him - the age comments are hilarious, considering that he won his third title at the age of forty and was still winning GPs against the likes of Stewart, Rindt and Ickx four years later!


So reverse psychology then, you think?!

Well, it would make sense, a wake-up call to Mark is indeed in place, although his slip in Korea should have been enough to wake Mark up again.

#14 Gilles12

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 10:08

How anyone can say Mark's lost it with two races to go is beyond me

The car he drives has secured what, 15 poles of the season out of 17?

In old money he's only four points behind Alonso...



#15 aditya-now

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 10:12

How anyone can say Mark's lost it with two races to go is beyond me

The car he drives has secured what, 15 poles of the season out of 17?

In old money he's only four points behind Alonso...


Yes, that´s why Sir Jack thinks it´s over for Mark, two races from the end. A wake-up call, they say. Or maybe Brabham is affiliated with Mateschitz in some weird way.

#16 flyer121

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 10:14

So reverse psychology then, you think?!

Well, it would make sense, a wake-up call to Mark is indeed in place, although his slip in Korea should have been enough to wake Mark up again.


Yes it was wake up all right ... and it did come at a time where he can still do something about it.

Korea was not the best time to DNF but perhaps its not the worst either.

#17 kosmos

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 10:18

I don't think the problem is Webber at all, he is a good driver with the best car of the grid, he can win both races without any problem. The main concern should be the team and Vettel, not Webber, in my opinion of course. Webber is still the favourite.

#18 DILLIGAF

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 10:30

Yes it was wake up all right ... and it did come at a time where he can still do something about it.

Korea was not the best time to DNF but perhaps its not the worst either.


To be honest i think Jack might be serious when he says Webber can't win it. I hope not. But right from the start of the season he's been saying he hopes Mark can win or would love Mark to win but rarely anything more. I really think Jack likes Webber but doesn't really rate him. He's on record as saying he rates Vettel as a better driver & a more likely WDC than Webber. But then again many have underestimated how well Mark would perform this year so can't blame Jack for thinking the same i guess

Here's one example of Jacks comments earlier in the year: http://www.theage.co...00513-v1pe.html

#19 Gilles12

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 10:40

To be honest i think Jack might be serious when he says Webber can't win it. I hope not. But right from the start of the season he's been saying he hopes Mark can win or would love Mark to win but rarely anything more. I really think Jack likes Webber but doesn't really rate him. He's on record as saying he rates Vettel as a better driver & a more likely WDC than Webber. But then again many have underestimated how well Mark would perform this year so can't blame Jack for thinking the same i guess

Here's one example of Jacks comments earlier in the year: http://www.theage.co...00513-v1pe.html


I can just imagine Mark saying to himself, "Oi, Jack, ya half-wit oxygen thief, go give ya'self an uppercut!"




(As per Stan Zemanek)


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#20 DILLIGAF

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 10:46

I can just imagine Mark saying to himself, "Oi, Jack, ya half-wit oxygen thief, go give ya'self an uppercut!"




(As per Stan Zemanek)


:lol:

Fair to say he's throw a few choice "F" words in the mix as well.

#21 Ferrari2183

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 11:11

No.

Webber can still win the WDC, reliability is going to be crucial in these last couple of races. Fernando has this engine situation, a DNF for him and win for Webber and it's back on. No one can predict correctly how it is going to end, everyone's guesstimating. I feel both Webber and Lewis have better chance than Fernando, and this has nothing to do with their talent or driving abilities. We'll see.

I can't agree with Hamilton standing a better chance than Alonso. If we are to include him then surely Vettel should be there as well as he is only 4 points behind Hamilton in the best car. In order for Hamilton to win the WDC he has to hope that Alonso and Webber have failures and that Vettel has two bad races.

Alonso is sitting pretty as even if he doesn't score in Brazil he is still within striking distance come Abu Dhabi.

1. A Webber win, he would trail by 14 points but would still be ahead of both Hamilton and Vettel regardless of where they finish.
2. A Hamilton win and Webber second, he would trail Webber by 7 and Hamilton by 4 points.
3. A Vettel win and Webber 2nd, he would trail Webber by 7 and be equal on points with Vettel.

It is a very nice position to be in... Unless he suffers two failures.

#22 fatfreddie

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 11:20

Sir Jack's a wily old bird. This will be his way of letting Mark know that he's still backing him - the age comments are hilarious, considering that he won his third title at the age of forty and was still winning GPs against the likes of Stewart, Rindt and Ickx four years later!

Age, per se, has nothing to do with it. It´s about motivation and desire. Having said that, the burn out point today is a lot younger than when Jack was racing, and the reason for that is the fact modern racing drivers start at such an early age. If you start at age 6 you are not going to last much past your mid to late 20´s, while if you start at age 21 you could still be on it at 40, assuming of course you look after yourself physically.

#23 W154

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 11:23

Fair suck of the sav Jack ! it's a bit rich of you having a go at Mark for making a few mistakes :eek:
Back in 1970, if it wasn't for a certain driver running off the track on the last corner at Monaco and that same certain driver then running out of fuel on the last lap at British GP that same certain driver could today be a FOUR times winner of WDC insted of 3 WDC :clap: .
Loved you walking out to the grid with the walking stick and long grey beard at Zandvoort in 66, perhaps next year they should take Schumi out to the grid in a wheelchair at each race.

#24 Gilles12

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 11:27

Age, per se, has nothing to do with it. It´s about motivation and desire. Having said that, the burn out point today is a lot younger than when Jack was racing, and the reason for that is the fact modern racing drivers start at such an early age. If you start at age 6 you are not going to last much past your mid to late 20´s, while if you start at age 21 you could still be on it at 40, assuming of course you look after yourself physically.


What kind of burnout are we talking here? When the speed declines and the driver is fired?

Or when they simply couldn't keep up with the strain of a yearly campaign

In the last few years I think we've witnessed only three voluntary retirements from the sport

Mika, Montoya and Michael - arguably all for somewhat seperate but at the sametime similar reasons

As far as I can think, anyone else who was around 10 years ago and isn't now was effectively fired (dropped and not re-hired)

#25 Oblomov

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 11:59

If your team doesn´t want you to win, there´s nothing you can do but resigning.

Or you can do an "Alonso". You are not going to win anyway, but you will probably feel great. :cool:

#26 One

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 12:02

Sir Black Jack is correct.Mark has made too many mistakes, though that is Mark Webber. A bloody good honest racer. His best chance was this year and it is still not over, The Ferrari is using past their best engines and Mark could still win both races.
Jack was winning races in his 40s but in a different era when being smart was far more important.The team tells dumb but fast drivers what to do whereas in Jacks days he did it himself. Get rid of radios, telemetry and computerised cars and it is all different. These days outright speed is more important than being smart, though being smart will still win difficult races. Button is smarter than Hamilton, Mark is smarter then Vunderkid etc. Though if Vettel gives Mark some support it will help Marks cause. Massa has not generally got the pace to support Alonso, though next race could bely that!
Though next year Vettel will not have it all his own way as Webber will still be around and will still win races and score well presuming the car is capable.

:up: :up:

#27 seahawk

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 14:57

The biggest problem for Mark Webber is his team. They would need to make him No.1 and ask Vettel to drive for Mark, but I doubt that they would to it. And that is mostly due to Mark´s fault in Korea. He threw away the car, while Vettel drove a great race and was stopped by the car´s engine alone. One could they they owe Vettel a shot at the WDC, even though Mark is in a better position.

#28 Villes Gilleneuve

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 15:39

I think Jack is just stating the obvious, that the momentum has gone away from Webber...


Momentum doesn't win championships. It's still race-by-race, and JB is yet another old F1 driver making comments that are no more relevant that anyone else's opinion.

#29 Yorkie

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 15:51

Sir Black Jack is correct.Mark has made too many mistakes, though that is Mark Webber. A bloody good honest racer. His best chance was this year and it is still not over, The Ferrari is using past their best engines and Mark could still win both races.
Jack was winning races in his 40s but in a different era when being smart was far more important.The team tells dumb but fast drivers what to do whereas in Jacks days he did it himself. Get rid of radios, telemetry and computerised cars and it is all different. These days outright speed is more important than being smart, though being smart will still win difficult races. Button is smarter than Hamilton, Mark is smarter then Vunderkid etc. Though if Vettel gives Mark some support it will help Marks cause. Massa has not generally got the pace to support Alonso, though next race could bely that!
Though next year Vettel will not have it all his own way as Webber will still be around and will still win races and score well presuming the car is capable.

If luck evens out next year Vettel will beat Webber easily



#30 flyer121

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 16:01

I really think Jack likes Webber but doesn't really rate him. He's on record as saying he rates Vettel as a better driver & a more likely WDC than Webber. But then again many have underestimated how well Mark would perform this year so can't blame Jack for thinking the same i guess

Here's one example of Jacks comments earlier in the year: http://www.theage.co...00513-v1pe.html


Its a nice position to be in... Being liked but not being rated !

On the other end - Being disliked but rated highly is a bit awkward ( ask Vettel !! ) ;)



#31 Yorkie

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 16:11

Its a nice position to be in... Being liked but not being rated !

On the other end - Being disliked but rated highly is a bit awkward ( ask Vettel !! );)

Apparently Vettel's supposed to be quite a likeable chap :)

#32 lovelytam

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 16:35

well on a dutch site say's that red bull asked vettel to finish before webber and vettel answer was a simple no
so red bull doesn't want webber to be wdc

in my pov i hope webber wins the wdc and say the magic words to his team again, like he did in silverstone
but we'll see, he can win the wdc

#33 flyer121

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 16:43

Apparently Vettel's supposed to be quite a likeable chap :)


Well - used to be likeable - yes but currently I dont think so.

At least going by this forum ... and something I can understand even as a fellow supporter.

#34 pingu666

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 17:29

seb can be really nice, but theres a side or sides to him which just make you hate him :\, like the finger thing...

#35 Callisto

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 19:26

yes


#36 mymemoryfails

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 19:53

I believe!

mymemoryfails

#37 Tufty

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 20:55

I believe!

mymemoryfails

I hope your first post here is a good luck charm for Mark!!! Welcome :)

#38 olliek88

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 21:20

I think with the new points system it seems to exagerate the swing in momentum, if mark wins the last 2 GPs he is world champ, and i can't see the ferrari or macca out pacing the RBR's either, for me mark still has a very good chance of winning the WDC.

EDIT: typo

Edited by olliek88, 01 November 2010 - 21:23.


#39 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 21:21

If luck evens out next year Vettel will beat Webber easily

Yes, but you make your own luck. And Vettel has been dumb several times wheras Mark has been fighting his team and still getting better results. And if he does win the title really that should make him No 1 in the team.
Personally I think Vettel is less of a chance this year than Webber as he is not as smart, which makes him harder on what seems to be slightly fragile equipment.
Alonso and maybe Lewis are the ones to beat.

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#40 Yorkie

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Posted 01 November 2010 - 21:44

Yes, but you make your own luck. And Vettel has been dumb several times wheras Mark has been fighting his team and still getting better results. And if he does win the title really that should make him No 1 in the team.
Personally I think Vettel is less of a chance this year than Webber as he is not as smart, which makes him harder on what seems to be slightly fragile equipment.
Alonso and maybe Lewis are the ones to beat.

I was thinking of all the mechanical problems Vettel has had this year, without those he would have been WDC already, i'd admire your confidence in Webber as he clearly was outclassed by Vettel last time out

#41 jeremy durward

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 02:44

I was thinking of all the mechanical problems Vettel has had this year, without those he would have been WDC already, i'd admire your confidence in Webber as he clearly was outclassed by Vettel last time out


i believe thats what lee was talking about too, Vettel seems to be very harsh on his equiptment, flying laps at the end of a gp are not good for engines and jumping curbs in spain was pointed too as a possible reason for his brake problems there as well as the cracked chassis which probably has the same cause.

#42 apoka

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 07:13

On the other hand, Vettel was cruising a lot while in the lead. He didn't push like mad to create very big gaps, but is really good at controlling races. The flying laps at the end of the GP may not be that relevant in comparison.

#43 pazza

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 01:08

I believe!

mymemoryfails


I believe!!

Webbo will win this championship!!


#44 BullHead

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 01:12

There's no doubt to me that Webber is WDC material... he can do it, although I'd prefer Vettel.

I'm torn between thinking Webber should do it now cos Vettel has a whole future ahead of him, and yet Vettel really does IMO have that special driving edge over Webber that is more likely to succeed if given the support...


Being CH must be very difficult right now, in constrast to what others are saying aroung this board.

Edited by BullHead, 03 November 2010 - 01:16.


#45 PassWind

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 11:30

Oh I agree with Jack, and when he suggests a young mans sports I think he certainly does it on the basis of how talent is cultured today as opposed to the past. Today teams look for any edge securing and developing talent as early as possible is one of those edges teams quest for.

#46 Tsarwash

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 13:23

Yes, but you make your own luck. And Vettel has been dumb several times wheras Mark has been fighting his team and still getting better results. And if he does win the title really that should make him No 1 in the team.
Personally I think Vettel is less of a chance this year than Webber as he is not as smart, which makes him harder on what seems to be slightly fragile equipment.
Alonso and maybe Lewis are the ones to beat.


Mark has made more mistakes this year than Vettel, and some of his mistakes have been clangers. A lot of the car failures are nothing at all to do with the drivers, so saying that you make your own luck is not actually true. Vettel has been pretty unlucky with car failures this year, and Mark has been quite lucky that some of the big collisions have not eliminated him from the race.


#47 One

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 13:30

Mark has got incredible following winds of luck this year. A huge gifts. He made use of it, and will make use of it till the end of the year. If there is one who can do the job in his circumstance, it is him himself.