38 replies to this topic

[fatfreddie]

I spotted an article in Classic racer where Lawson claims Spencer´s triple was " light years" ahead of the YZR´s he and Roberts campaigned in 1983. According to him, if Roberts had been on the Honda he would have easily won the title that year.
Funny, but somehow I don´t remember it that way at all. I thought the Honda had a distinct power deficit, and while the earlier V4 Yam (1982 version) was a bit of a pig handling wise, the improved ´83 version was not that far behind the Honda, and was probably the better all round weapon .
Did I get this wrong, or has Eddie a personal reason for making what I consider a totally wrong call?
As most of you, like me, were witness to that period, I´d love to hear your opinions on the subject.

[Paul Collins]

From what I remember it was pretty much as you say, the Yam was faster in a straight line and probably suited the fast flowing circuits but the Honda was better through the twisty bits and probably easier to push atart and very nippy off the line.

[terryshep]

From what I remember it was pretty much as you say, the Yam was faster in a straight line and probably suited the fast flowing circuits but the Honda was better through the twisty bits and probably easier to push atart and very nippy off the line.

No question, the Yam was quicker, but not the nicest engine to ride, while the reed valve Honda would be more user-friendly. However, let's not forget that we were watching a real phenomenon in Freddie Spenser, who had moments when no-one could touch him. I remember with huge pleasure the 1985 Silverstone 250 GP, in streaming wet conditions, when he came round Woodcote 9 secs ahead of the field on the first lap. Achieving the double crown that year used up his store of genius, I feel, we never saw that Freddie thereafter. I don't blame him one whit, he is one of the all-time greats of racing in my book.

[Paul Collins]

Hi Terry, I still own the poor mans RS500 that you built in or around 1985 based on the NS400R and otherwise known as the Shepherd NS500, mine is the original prototype you built for Tony Head, you may remember we had a discussion on the NS400 site a while ago when I was restoring it, I originally sold it on around 1989 and then bought it back as a restoration job about 7 years ago.

Not as quick as the real thing but a bloody good performer in its day.

It was sitting in my lounge at home up until a few months ago then I moved to the IOM so i'm currently arranging to get it shipped to my new place.

Edited to say, my first attempt at posting a photo on here, seems to have worked (in a fashion) but not sure why you have to scroll it down to see bike?

[img]http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l616/stealth34/stealth6.jpg

Edited by Paul Collins, 31 October 2010 - 20:11.

[Rennmax]

Nice bike and nice collection of silverware as well !

Edited by Rennmax, 31 October 2010 - 21:26.

[Paul Collins]

Rennmax many thanks!! i've just spent 30 minutes swearing at the computer and trying to get it right, I think i've sussed out how to do it now but you've saved me the bother of editing the original post

[terryshep]

Hi Terry, I still own the poor mans RS500 that you built in or around 1985 based on the NS400R and otherwise known as the Shepherd NS500, mine is the original prototype you built for Tony Head, you may remember we had a discussion on the NS400 site a while ago when I was restoring it, I originally sold it on around 1989 and then bought it back as a restoration job about 7 years ago.

Not as quick as the real thing but a bloody good performer in its day.

It was sitting in my lounge at home up until a few months ago then I moved to the IOM so i'm currently arranging to get it shipped to my new place.

Edited to say, my first attempt at posting a photo on here, seems to have worked (in a fashion) but not sure why you have to scroll it down to see bike?

[img]http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l616/stealth34/stealth6.jpg

That's a nice restoration job, Paul. That motor was the first in a long line, I built them for people all over the world, mostly as road bikes. Tony rode it for me in the TT and I remember an anguished phone call one morning after practice when he'd displaced a cylinder head sealing ring and seized a barrel. We couldn't fix it immediately because the barrels were Nikasiled for me by Mahle at that time, so I told him to put the tuned standard bore ones on and have a ride. He averaged 107mph in the race and went through the speed trap at the same speed as Charlie Williams' TZ350 had in the Junior race, not bad for a 387cc road bike with a bit of a tweak. I still get mails about them, even now.

[SILVERDREAMRACER]

thread drifting a bit
I think Joey Dunlop rode this NS400R at IOM TT in the proddie TT 1985?

[terryshep]

I'm not sure about the the date of this, SDR. Unfortunately, memory lets you down sometimes and I am not certain about the exact year when this happened. I know that when the NS400R first appeared at the Show, I think 1984, Joey was agitating for an F2 ride to supplement his RVF, because he was fed up with waiting around all day for his ride at F1 meetings. Knowing this, I suggested that perhaps the NS could be adapted for this purpose, using the rules they had pushed through the FIM to allow their 408cc four-cylinder bike to be used as an F3, whereby one was permitted to reduce capacity by up to 15% to comply with the capacity rules. Since the NS400 was a 387, it would be legally possible to convert it to under a 350, thus making it an F2.

However, when I went to Honda's Chiswick headquarters to evaluate the bike, which the mechanic's school had stripped to the last nut & washer, it was immediately obvious that it was really a 500, cut down to fit a Japanese taxation class. The clutch was more suitable to a truck, the gears were the same, the crank was obviously unsuitable for the sort of revs a 350 triple racer would need: I told them it would make a much better 500.

That was that, I thought; Honda quietened Joey in some way. Some while later, Honda asked me if I would like to make the NS into the 500 racer I had suggested, I agreed and in due course the NS arrived. As far as I know, this was the only NS they had, it was numbered 001 on the steering head, so I am not sure when Joey might have ridden it in the proddy race, perhaps 1984?

Tony Head had run away with the F2 National championship on my 350 LC, so he was the obvious choice to race it in the World F1 series, which included the TT at that time.

[Paul Collins]

Hi Terry, I didnt know that!! i've heard rumours that you were in some way commissioned by Honda Britain to build a 500 out of the NS but never actually had the full story.

I'll check my numbers when I can, i'm actually in the UK at the moment where my bike is stored so i'll have a look, I seem to remember it originally came with a reg doc when I bought it from Tony, he said they'd registered it to make it easier to get in and out of the UK through customs, and I think it showed the supplier or first owner as Frettons of Coventry.

Thanks so much for the info Terry.

[fil2.8]

Hi Terry, I didnt know that!! i've heard rumours that you were in some way commissioned by Honda Britain to build a 500 out of the NS but never actually had the full story.

I'll check my numbers when I can, i'm actually in the UK at the moment where my bike is stored so i'll have a look, I seem to remember it originally came with a reg doc when I bought it from Tony, he said they'd registered it to make it easier to get in and out of the UK through customs, and I think it showed the supplier or first owner as Frettons of Coventry.

Thanks so much for the info Terry.

Yes , Paul , Frettons of Coventry would be correct , and , thanks Terry for the info

[SILVERDREAMRACER]

Hi Terry,
I owned the NS400 in the picture,it came to me direct from the race shop in Chiswick,it was road registered on a "B" reg I think....
it was properly race prepped,I was given to understand Joey had ridden at the IOM TT in a proddy class not as a serious contender but mainly as a means to getting extra track time
It went OK but was very thirsty....wish I'd kept it.

[Paul Collins]

Hi Terry,
I owned the NS400 in the picture,it came to me direct from the race shop in Chiswick,it was road registered on a "B" reg I think....
it was properly race prepped,I was given to understand Joey had ridden at the IOM TT in a proddy class not as a serious contender but mainly as a means to getting extra track time
It went OK but was very thirsty....wish I'd kept it.

I've Just checked my headstock, its 2001748, and I know its still the original frame from when I first owned the bike, I think its V5 had a 'C' reg number so based on Terry's info you may well have the ex JD machine.

[SILVERDREAMRACER]

thread drifting a bit
I think Joey Dunlop rode this NS400R at IOM TT in the proddie TT 1985?

found this pic on the net.......I really wished I'd kept it now

Edited by SILVERDREAMRACER, 05 November 2010 - 20:51.

[Steve7]

Sorry, thread drifting a bit, but thought I'd add this photo from British GP (1985?), Honda triple.

Photo taken in the pits at Silverstone.
The bike just visible on extreme right is a Rothman's painted NS400R, I have a photo somewhere that includes both bikes....if I could only find it!

Steve.
http://www.skphotoscom.co.uk/

Edited by Steve7, 06 November 2010 - 13:18.

[Hasselhoff]

Honda V4

[terryshep]

Sorry, thread drifting a bit, but thought I'd add this photo from British GP (1985?), Honda triple.

Steve.
http://www.skphotoscom.co.uk/

Yes, Hass, a V4 in 1985, when he did the double. Rode V3 in '83, had new upside-down V4 in '84 and the rear wheel collapsed in S. Africa

[exclubracer]

Yes, Hass, a V4 in 1985, when he did the double. Rode V3 in '83, had new upside-down V4 in '84 and the rear wheel collapsed in S. Africa

Hmmm...I would have put a few quid on that being a V3, the single R/H pipe from the front pot and the pipes from the 2 rear pots under the seat. My recollection is that the '85 V4 had 2 pipes each side.

I could well be wrong on this one, best keep my money in my back sack for now...

[Paul Collins]

Hmmm...I would have put a few quid on that being a V3, the single R/H pipe from the front pot and the pipes from the 2 rear pots under the seat. My recollection is that the '85 V4 had 2 pipes each side.

I could well be wrong on this one, best keep my money in my back sack for now...

That looks like a triple, I seem to remember the first prototype V4 had a dummy fuel tank with the real one under the motor, described by Mamola as handling 'like a rock on the end of a stick'

[terryshep]

That looks like a triple, I seem to remember the first prototype V4 had a dummy fuel tank with the real one under the motor, described by Mamola as handling 'like a rock on the end of a stick'

You may well be right, Paul, I was simply getting the dates right - '83 triple, V4 thereafter. What Randy is describing is what I called the 'upside-down V4'.

[exclubracer]

The heatshield on the r/h pipe is a giveaway also, didn't have a l/h pipe obviously so definitely a triple for me.

[picblanc]

Yeah its the triple!

[kerrowmoar]

Do you notice the "shrouds" around the front forks? They were on a lot of the factory hondas from 83 onwards including the RS850.

I thought they were some fancy fork leg lower but after seeing them close up its just a shroud cable tied on to the lower,just seems to be a bit slap dash for Honda.......they disapeared a couple of years later.Probably one of the last bikes you could buy with a choice of left hand or right hand gearchange as well.(I stand to be corrected)

Oh and I think I love those triples more than I love RGs...............what are they worth now? I think they were 36k new in 83.

[Risil]

Hmmm...I would have put a few quid on that being a V3, the single R/H pipe from the front pot and the pipes from the 2 rear pots under the seat. My recollection is that the '85 V4 had 2 pipes each side.

I could well be wrong on this one, best keep my money in my back sack for now...

Didn't Freddie Spencer request Honda bring the triple to most rounds (every round?) in 1984, in case the brutality of the V-4 proved too... brutal? That certainly fits the Rothmans paintjob...

Edited by Risil, 06 November 2010 - 21:02.

[kerrowmoar]

Think your right Risil he won on the triple instead of the V4 in 84 at Spa......................I think

[Paul Collins]

Spencer didnt like the V4 at first and tried to comvince Honda to let him continue with the triple as he was still trouncing everyone with it, Honda had to eventually almost demand that he rode the V4 as they wanted to move on with development.

With hindsight Honda were right to push him towards the V4 as they knew the triple would eventually be outgunned.

[Hasselhoff]

Oops......yep Honda triple

[Macca]

In 1982 the second incarnation of the square-four Yamaha that Roberts rode had a steeper head-angle than the ones Sheene, Crosby and Fontan rode; then when Sheene was finally given a V4 (not even next in the queue after Roberts - "What's that Sheene-san? You're 2nd in the championship? But you slagged us off when you rode for us in 1972......") it's well-known that he had to get Harris Bros to cut and shut the frame to reduce the Roberts-preferred headstock angle which again was too steep, compounding the handling problems from the engine being too high and having light-switch response, and the horizontal shock that spread the frame.

And when the 1983 Yamaha came out, lo and behold it had a much shallower headstock angle, probably too shallow this time which made it less reponsive in changes in direction than the Honda-3. Also the disc-valve induction made it difficult to push-start consistently well.

The 1984 Yamaha with the chassis better-sorted also switched to reed-valves IIRC........so I see what Lawson means, I think, and the '83 Honda probably was the best all-round tool that year and stiil competitive on many circuits in '84. The '84 V4 upside-down Honda probably had the edge on power over the twin-crank Yam, as long as you weren't changing direction in a hurry; hence Mamola winning at Silverstone.

Paul M

[Cstonerfan]

We got 2 of these down under with the different front fender that only came out in Japan and Australia/NZ so I have been told.

[Steve53]

Sorry, thread drifting a bit, but thought I'd add this photo from British GP (1985?), Honda triple.

Photo taken in the pits at Silverstone.
The bike just visible on extreme right is a Rothman's painted NS400R, I have a photo somewhere that includes both bikes....if I could only find it!

Steve.
http://www.skphotoscom.co.uk/

Ive been randomly scouring through the threads and came upon this photo in the " Eddie Lawson comments on the Freddie spencer 83 NS 500 " thread or something like that....the photo above is taken in 1985 is a Rothmans promo photo...I suppose they set up props like this for the fans to oggle over... It is a, by that time dated 83NS500 ( ive forgotten the drawing number- the code we used to call them by....evident by the aluminium spoked carbon rimmed wheels which were never used in anger after one exploded on Fredies bike during practice at the first gp of 1983. I can still recall the ashen faces of Erv and all the Japs as they glanced accross the field to a cloud of dust erupting from a very uncerimonious departure by Freddie into the rough at what would have been flat out in forth or fifth gear.It probably drained a bit of colour out of Freddies face as well.

As for the subject of the thread, I haven't read Eddies column that is cited so I can't comment on that. What I can say, and I was in the inner sanctum of HRC in those days as Ron Haslams mechanic along with Dozy Balligton, is that the NS 500 was a remarkable motorcycle in many facets. In sheer statistical numbers it was low down in the pecking order of works 500's, not by much but of course it didn't have to be much to count. We did a lot of development work in Brazil a few months before Kyalami, particularly in the exhaust valve, and that is what made the crucial difference. The first iterations of the power valve for the exhaust were very crude affairs. They worked off engine RPM with many levers and linkages but the initial effect was remarkable. We had a lot of problems with the butterfly's distorting with exhaust gas heat but eventually the valve was sorted out and every GP the Japs came with another small piece to change.
But the overall design was a genius. A narrow engine, with no large spinning masses away from the centerline meant that the gyroscopic effect was kept to a minimum compared to an inline four cyclinder. this bike was so manoeverable and so well balanced with its compact engine mass and low CofG that it could compete even being numerically inferior in many performance parameters..
All it needed were reliable inlet and exhaust valves to give the power spread and it could have been any American rider who would have achieved the results. I believe it didnt really matter about Roberts or Lawson or Spencer...in my opinion they were all equally as skilled as each other, and at the time, a notch above the rest. We also have to remember that Michelen had the edge on Dunlop that year. They really were a superb tyre. The construction was well sorted before the season started and didn't need any changes. we did spend a lot of time on the rumber chemistry and travelled to Clermont with Ron to sort the compounds out. he was basically the test riderr for the HRC group that year and Freddie did benefit indirectly a lot from Haslams input.

Steve.

[rd500]

just out of info i remember seeing a picture of freddies v4 [jarama 85] on the weight bench and it was sitting at 119kg
and then of randys triple and it was 123kg, lawsons yzr couldnt have been anywhere near that, i would of thought the yam would of been about 130kg?

[kz71]

just out of info i remember seeing a picture of freddies v4 [jarama 85] on the weight bench and it was sitting at 119kg
and then of randys triple and it was 123kg, lawsons yzr couldnt have been anywhere near that, i would of thought the yam would of been about 130kg?

The lightest 500 I ever saw was one of Randy's early '83 XR45s with the square section alu frame and it was 107kg bone dry. It broke everywhere and by the time we had it reliable and raceable it was 112kg. We heard that Freddies early NSRs were under 110kg also. I seem to remember 118kg for the '86 YZR500s.
The early 80's numbers are light, but then only 132 bhp or so, doesn't compare to 186bhp with 130kg which they ended up with.
And then none of that compares with 220 bhp and 145kg but then that takes an engine twice the size, using a huge amount of parts and costing a fortune
Mike S

Edited by kz71, 15 July 2011 - 07:46.

[jaybee49]

I took a party of bikers mostly on Bee-Emms down to the old Nurburgring in the late 80’s and I was on a K1OORS. Paid the fee to do a lap and just as I entered the circuit a rider came by me on one of those NS400R’s complete with Rothman’s leathers. The old red mist came down so I decided to follow him as he looked as if he knew where he was going and I didn’t. It was bloody hairy going trying to stay with him and I got it all wrong so many times; I think I even felt the ABS kick in on the Beemer a few times.

Hearing screeching tyres and seeing the headlights of BMW & Audi sports cars with racing drivers in my mirrors then go roaring by us was a bit off putting as well.

When we were almost at the end of the lap there is a long straight just before a final chicane. With the 1000 BMW - I was able to just draft past him flat out at the end of the straight and bulk him for the chicane and finish the lap in front of him.

When we parked up he came over and gave me a funny look as I was examining the scratches on the panniers and belly pan. He asked me how many times I had been around and I said it’s the first time. He took me over to the Honda and there was stop watch inside the fairing. He said 9 and half minutes. I said is that good - he said its good for an old fart that has not been around here before and on a BMW..

Sorry to go off topic a bit. Now going to get out my Yamaha book by Colin Mackellar and check up on all this. Interesting thread.

Edited by jaybee49, 15 July 2011 - 09:58.

[rd500]

great story jim, always looked like a hairy place the old Nurburgring

i recall the japanese gp 1990 when schwantz ran up the back of wg and on weighing in they found the rgv to be at 114kg, they blamed the clutch lever that had broken off!

the 2 bikes in 90 that were on the weight limit were the nsr/rgv which was 115kg and i think the weight limit up until that year for the 500 class was 100kg, the power figures i find seem to vary depending on where they came from.

but one i heard was the 1990 honda had around 165bhp and another saying it was well over 170bhp, i have heard that in 91 honda did unofficialy claim 181 bhp for the nsr and that would match up to the 191mph set at hockenheim in free air that doohan did.

i know they did say that they in the 96 nsr they had gotten back to the same output as in 1993 due to the new fuel regs.

the power outputs of the 500s in the late 90s early 2000s seem to level at 185bhp but i think this was played down a bit as the kr proton 3 cyl was quoted by kenny roberts as having 178bhp in 2000.

im sure 195 bhp would be closer to the mark?

[kz71]

great story jim, always looked like a hairy place the old Nurburgring

i recall the japanese gp 1990 when schwantz ran up the back of wg and on weighing in they found the rgv to be at 114kg, they blamed the clutch lever that had broken off!

the 2 bikes in 90 that were on the weight limit were the nsr/rgv which was 115kg and i think the weight limit up until that year for the 500 class was 100kg, the power figures i find seem to vary depending on where they came from.

but one i heard was the 1990 honda had around 165bhp and another saying it was well over 170bhp, i have heard that in 91 honda did unofficialy claim 181 bhp for the nsr and that would match up to the 191mph set at hockenheim in free air that doohan did.

i know they did say that they in the 96 nsr they had gotten back to the same output as in 1993 due to the new fuel regs.

the power outputs of the 500s in the late 90s early 2000s seem to level at 185bhp but i think this was played down a bit as the kr proton 3 cyl was quoted by kenny roberts as having 178bhp in 2000.

im sure 195 bhp would be closer to the mark?




Yes, power figures are often exaggerated. I was talking about the bikes I was involved with and the last 500 Hondas probably would have been around 195.
Toward the end of the 2 stroke era the bikes were getting quicker around a given track but mostly due to tractability not peak power.
The 90 YZR which won the championship had 154bhp at seasons end, so if the Honda had 165 it makes Wayne's effort look even better. From memory, I think we even won Hockenheim that year..just. Need a bit of horsepower to do that.

Edited by kz71, 16 July 2011 - 10:15.

[GD66]

No Hockenheim in 1990.

Kevin Schwantz won at Nurburgring : he also won Hockenheim 1991, and Mick Doohan in 1992. Not being a smartarse, it's no secret that Wayne Rainey punched well above his weight on a bike that was methodically set up but by no means the quickest thing out there. Talent and balls went a long way in those white-knuckled years...

Edited by GD66, 16 July 2011 - 22:54.

[rd500]

im sure the difference in 90 at phillip island was the yamahas were around 11 to 15 kph slower than the hondas.

wayne was something else though, i remember they used to call it the rainey factor.

[bella]

The Rainey years were the best i ever saw, razor sharp 500s and a few truly brilliant riders, in all the great rivalries of years gone by none spent as much racing time together as these guys.

[rd500]

hi mike, just asking if you remeber if it was the yamaha teams that done most of the development for the 500s as you sometimes hear that yamaha just built the bike and was sent out to the teams, then the improvments found/made were added to the next model

cheers ian

Edited by rd500, 18 July 2011 - 09:38.