79 replies to this topic

[sandy]

What would be the 10 most desireable road cars and would they naturally be classified as being the most rare?

Would this list be valid?

Mercedes Benz 1955 300 SLR Uhlenhaut Coupe
Bugatti Royale
Bugatti 59 (Road equipped)
Bugatti Atlantic
Mercedes Benz 300 SLR
Ferrari 375 plus
Maserati 450S
Ferrari P3
Bentley Speed Six 1929
Mercedes Benz SS 1930

[AJB]

What would be the 10 most desireable road cars and would they naturally be classified as being the most rare?

Would this list be valid?

Mercedes Benz 1955 300 SLR Uhlenhaut Coupe
Bugatti Royale
Bugatti 59 (Road equipped)
Bugatti Atlantic
Mercedes Benz 300 SLR
Ferrari 375 plus
Maserati 450S
Ferrari P3
Bentley Speed Six 1929
Mercedes Benz SS 1930

To you, yes; to anybody else, possibly not.

Most desirable road car for me would be a McLaren F1, but not that rare.

Rarest road car I have seen is a shark-nosed Ferrari 250GT, which I assume was a one-off.

Bentley Speed Six 1929? Not this week.

I don't think these would be particularly desirable as road cars:-
Mercedes Benz 300 SLR
Ferrari 375 plus
Maserati 450S
Ferrari P3

Alan
<sits back and opens popcorn>

[JoBo]

To you, yes; to anybody else, possibly not.

Most desirable road car for me would be a McLaren F1, but not that rare.

Rarest road car I have seen is a shark-nosed Ferrari 250GT, which I assume was a one-off.

Bentley Speed Six 1929? Not this week.

I don't think these would be particularly desirable as road cars:-
Mercedes Benz 300 SLR
Ferrari 375 plus
Maserati 450S
Ferrari P3

Alan
<sits back and opens popcorn>

Agree! These are more racing cars.

Rarest cars in my opinion are:

250 GTO
Maserati A6GCS Frua Spider
Bugatti Atlantic
BMW 328 MM roadster

Enjoy your popcorn!

JoBo

Edited by JoBo, 03 November 2010 - 13:40.

[Allan Lupton]

What would be the 10 most desireable road cars and would they naturally be classified as being the most rare?

Would this list be valid?

Mercedes Benz 1955 300 SLR Uhlenhaut Coupe
Bugatti Royale
Bugatti 59 (Road equipped)
Bugatti Atlantic
Mercedes Benz 300 SLR
Ferrari 375 plus
Maserati 450S
Ferrari P3
Bentley Speed Six 1929
Mercedes Benz SS 1930

Like the man said, to you it is valid; to anyone else not necessarily. As also said, a good half of them are not really road cars even if they had to be road legal to comply with the sportscar racing rules of the time. Moreover there is very little about a bare list to interest anyone other than its compiler - e.g. tell us why you think both the elephantine Royale and the Atlantic should be on your list.
Desirabilty and rareness are only correlated if you are the sort of person who thinks they are. Quite often you find cars are rare for a very good reason which can be that there never were many or that although there were a lot, few have survived. In the latter case the poor survival rate may be a clue to the desirability.
In your list one is unique and always was; several were series produced and I'd guess the survival rate of one of them is around (or perhaps even above) 100%!

Edited by Allan Lupton, 03 November 2010 - 14:11.

[Odseybod]

In your list one is unique and always was; several were series produced and I'd guess the survival rate of one of them is around (or perhaps even above) 100%!

Two Uhlenhaut Coupes, methinks - the red 'un and the blue 'un.

[fbarrett]

Quite often you find cars are rare for a very good reason which can be that there never were many...

Another reason is that the cars didn't sell well when new, possibly because they were less than interesting to drive. After spending a week with a 1953 Cunningham road car, hemi-powered, I realized why they sold only 26!

Frank

[Allan Lupton]

Two Uhlenhaut Coupes, methinks - the red 'un and the blue 'un.

Not sure about the colours, but of course I should have looked it up - I just remembered W21-6962 (0007/55) which was the one Uhlenaut used and forgot 0008/55 which I don't think was road registered. Numbers courtesy of Jenks, the anorak's anorak!

Edited by Allan Lupton, 03 November 2010 - 17:41.

[Odseybod]

Not sure about the colours, but of course I should have looked it up - I just remembered W21-6962 (0007/55) which was the one Uhlenaut used and forgot 0008/55 which I don't think was road registered. Numbers courtesy of jnks, the anorak's anorak!

Colours only refer to the upholstery, of course - only obvious way to tell the two silver beauties apart (at least, to the casual observer like me).

[Allan Lupton]

Another reason is that the cars didn't sell well when new, possibly because they were less than interesting to drive. After spending a week with a 1953 Cunningham road car, hemi-powered, I realized why they sold only 26!

Frank

That's included in my quoted Quite often you find cars are rare for a very good reason which can be that there never were many...
The usual reason for there not being many in the first place is the general one that they were poor value - expensive but didn't go well/handled like a hippopotamus/looked terrible/needed a PSV licence to drive/fill in as desired!
A couple of examples from my experience:
My 12.9 Sports Lea-Francis was too expensive for what it was even in 1938/9 so they had only sold three before the war stopped all that. 40 years later it didn't matter as I bought it for what it was (nice looking and goes well, if let down by cheap coachwork).
My 12/15 Mors NX was built (and sold) in quite large quantities in 1911-13 but very few survive. It must have been quite a good car for the price at the time, but cars of that period dated quickly so post-war many would have been cast aside as Vintage cars were rather better. Mine survived long enough to be rebuilt as a lorry in the 1930s rather than scrapped then like many newer cars were and it continued in that role until (and perhaps after) the next war. So there it was in the 1960s still structurally and mechanically complete enough for a new rear body to be built and 40 years later it can still give its owner driving pleasure.
So two rare cars that suit me, but hardly in anyone's list of most desirable cars.

[john ruston]

A Talbot 105 and a 356 Carrera 2 GT would be included in my list.

[David Birchall]

A Talbot 105 and a 356 Carrera 2 GT would be included in my list.

I agree. Plus:

Frazer Nash LM Rep
'73 Porsche 911 RS When you absolutely HAVE to get there on time
Bentley Speed Six--I know somebody else mentioned it but then seemed to withdraw it-a LNER locomotive for the street.
Alfa Monza Just for the sound, the style, the driveablity
Bugatti T35 --T, A, B, C...
Vauxhall OE30-98 Nothing slows you down (including the brakes)
Ferrari 250 SWB The sound....
Aston Martin Ulster Ultimate cornering on rails

In no particular order.

[sandy]

Perhaps also: taking it up to the top 20:

Alfa Romeo Monza
Ferrari 250GTO
Ferrari 860 3.5 litre
Ferrari 250 MM Berlinetta
Ferrari Vignale 340 AM Spyder
Straker-Squire 3.9 litre
Daimler Double 6
Hispano-Suiza 46cv "Boulogne"
Pegaso Z102
Jaguar XKSS

Edited by sandy, 04 November 2010 - 04:54.

[Terry Walker]

I'm not interested in any road car that I can't jump in and take down the corner store, or my local drive-through bottle shop, or across the continent. They have to be pleasant and practical to drive. I loved my RX-7, first series, but it was awkward of egress, to put it mildly, so I sold it.

In absolutely no order of preference, the most desirable to me are:

1 Alfa GTV Bertone (the 1960-70s shape; I owned one, it's the only car of the many I've owned that I'd have another of)
2 Bentley Continental R, 1980s-90s turbo V8. (Fast, reliable, stylish, superbly comfortable)
3 1963 Australian Falcon Squire station wagon, the model with the fake wood trim. Rare as rocking horse manure now, but simple, sturdy, practical and head-turning. And you can buy parts, fix it yourself, and use it to tow a trailer load of junk to the tip.
4 The last of the Holden HZ Monaro Coupes, the rare model with the gold mags, usually burgundy if I remember rightly. The last one I saw was scrunched up into a ball of smoking scrap at an intersection in Canberra years ago.
5 1929 Ford A Town Car. Who would have thought you could get a Ford A limo?? And yes, Model A's are useable still.
6 Late 1950s Ferrari 250 GT
7 Rolls-Royce Phantom 2 Henley Roadster
8 Er . .
9 That's it.

[john aston]

Not all of these are rare but all are infintely covetable in my house-
275GTB
246 GTS
AC 289
Gordon Keeble GK1
Elan S4
Alfa1750GTV
911 - any of the good ones and a 2.7 Carrera would be just fine (or aGT3RS)
Miura
Type 35
Caterham Seven

[elansprint72]

Classic & Sports Car magazine this month has a supplement on the 25 "Greatest Ever Drivers' Cars"; most of the pollsters are very well-qualified to express their opinions (some are members of this forum). It makes very interesting reading.

I find it hard to really argue with the findings, as we have two out of the top five in my garage and no, I don't mean the Carrera 2.7RS, the Mclaren F1 or the Alfa 8C-2300.

[sandy]

How I overlooked the Alfa 2.9 I can't imagine but surely that should be up there with the most desirable/rarest.

Edited by sandy, 04 November 2010 - 12:02.

[sandy]

[quote name='David Birchall' date='Nov 4 2010, 01:03' post='4684472']
I agree. Plus:
Bentley Speed Six--I know somebody else mentioned it but then seemed to withdraw it-a LNER locomotive for the street.

I am just as happy to expand this topic along these lines:
LNER A4
Union Pacific Big Boy
LMS Coronation Scot
GWR King
Santa Fe 2900 class
Nord 4-6-4
Southern Pacific GS-4
No, let it pass...

[AJB]

Classic & Sports Car magazine this month has a supplement on the 25 "Greatest Ever Drivers' Cars"; most of the pollsters are very well-qualified to express their opinions (some are members of this forum). It makes very interesting reading.

I find it hard to really argue with the findings, as we have two out of the top five in my garage and no, I don't mean the Carrera 2.7RS, the Mclaren F1 or the Alfa 8C-2300.

Oh, go on, give us a clue!
(I can only claim one out of the Top 10)

[elansprint72]

I agree. Plus:
Bentley Speed Six--I know somebody else mentioned it but then seemed to withdraw it-a LNER locomotive for the street.

I am just as happy to expand this topic along these lines:
LNER A4
Union Pacific Big Boy
LMS Coronation Scot
GWR King
Santa Fe 2900 class
Nord 4-6-4
Southern Pacific GS-4
No, let it pass...

Given that WO was apprenticed at Great Northern, I think LNER is something of an insult.

[h4887]

This must be one of the most futile threads ever, so I can't resist joining in. Here are my ten, in no order:

Rochdale Olympic
Ginetta G15
Alpine A110
Stratos
RS200
Gilbern Invader
Ginetta G21 V6
Lotus 7
Lotus Elan
Gordon Keeble

And while I'm here, the title should be 'most rare/desirable' or it'll be reported to the Blood Pressure Police

[elansprint72]

This must be one of the most futile threads ever, so I can't resist joining in. Here are my ten, in no order:

Rochdale Olympic
Ginetta G15
Alpine A110
Stratos
RS200
Gilbern Invader
Ginetta G21 V6
Lotus 7
Lotus Elan
Gordon Keeble

And while I'm here, the title should be 'most rare/desirable' or it'll be reported to the Blood Pressure Police

A fan of the fantastic plastic?
I'd love a GK; having to make do with copy #350/500 of Ernie Knott's book until the lottery win though.

[Paul Taylor]

The Leyland Force 7?

[JtP1]

Not all of these are rare but all are infintely covetable in my house-
275GTB
246 GTS
AC 289
Gordon Keeble GK1
Elan S4
Alfa1750GTV
911 - any of the good ones and a 2.7 Carrera would be just fine (or aGT3RS)
Miura
Type 35
Caterham Seven

About the only car missing off that list would be a Cooper S, preferably a 1071 and swap the 275GTB for a Lusso.

[David Birchall]

Given that WO was apprenticed at Great Northern, I think LNER is something of an insult.

But Great Northern were not green were they?

[jockellis]

I don't know about desirable, but a rust free MG would be rare.

Edited by jockellis, 05 November 2010 - 04:23.

[cheapracer]

The Leyland Force 7?

Why not, a Tour De Force of course.

And parked next to your Phase 4 HO
and XU1 V8
and around back of the shed one of the 3 genuine Ford XC 428 Hume Hwy Police Pursuit car.

Also

a 6 car collection of all the '85/'86 Group B factory rally cars (and I mean the factory cars).

All rare.

Edited by cheapracer, 05 November 2010 - 04:24.

[john aston]

About the only car missing off that list would be a Cooper S, preferably a 1071 and swap the 275GTB for a Lusso.

Sorry- front wheel drive free zone. But I'll raise you a GT40 and a 365GTC

[Allan Lupton]

But Great Northern were not green were they?

They were:

[David Birchall]

Right, I was thinking of LMS

Anyway, standing alongside the bonnet of a Speed Six is like standing alongside a bloody great steam locomotive!

[kayemod]

They were:

Ah, a Stirling 4-2-2, the very name brings us right back to the very raison d'être of TNF.

My list? Too many possible choices, but as well as the almost obligatory 1963 Ferrari 250 GTO, it would include a 1972 Citroën Maserati SM, and an Evo 3 2.5 litre BMW E30 M3. Don't want to go overboard on the German DTM stuff, but an Evo 2 or 3 Mercedes 190 would be pretty desirable as well. I've only ever sat in Nick Mason's GTO at Goodwood, but I've driven slightly lesser examples of the two Deutsche Tourenwagens, and both left an indelible impression, the M3 in particular. Sadly, two of my all-time favourites are almost undriveable for anyone even fractionally over six feet tall, as is the original Lotus Elan, but I'll add a Lancia Fulvia HF Coupé, and a 2 litre 1970s Alfa GT, surely one of the prettiest cars ever made. I'd also have to have a Lotus Cortina, and having driven several, though most would probably go for a Mk 1, my favourite by far would be a Dagenham built big-valve Mk 2. All of these are reasonable 'driving down to the shops' propositions, but I'd still want to hang onto my current Alfa for that, who'd want to park anything with aluminium panels outside their local Tesco among all the people carriers? I already park in isolation in the spot furthest from the entrance as it is.

[JtP1]

Ah, a Stirling 4-2-2, the very name brings us right back to the very raison d'être of TNF.

My list? Too many possible choices, but as well as the almost obligatory 1963 Ferrari 250 GTO, it would include a 1972 Citroën Maserati SM, and an Evo 3 2.5 litre BMW E30 M3. Don't want to go overboard on the German DTM stuff, but an Evo 2 or 3 Mercedes 190 would be pretty desirable as well. I've only ever sat in Nick Mason's GTO at Goodwood, but I've driven slightly lesser examples of the two Deutsche Tourenwagens, and both left an indelible impression, the M3 in particular. Sadly, two of my all-time favourites are almost undriveable for anyone even fractionally over six feet tall, as is the original Lotus Elan, but I'll add a Lancia Fulvia HF Coupé, and a 2 litre 1970s Alfa GT, surely one of the prettiest cars ever made. I'd also have to have a Lotus Cortina, and having driven several, though most would probably go for a Mk 1, my favourite by far would be a Dagenham built big-valve Mk 2. All of these are reasonable 'driving down to the shops' propositions, but I'd still want to hang onto my current Alfa for that, who'd want to park anything with aluminium panels outside their local Tesco among all the people carriers? I already park in isolation in the spot furthest from the entrance as it is.

Citroen Maserati SM, Lancia Fulvia? Thought fwd was banned from this discussion.

[kayemod]

Citroen Maserati SM, Lancia Fulvia? Thought fwd was banned from this discussion.

No, not unless Sandy decrees it so, thread starter's privilege.

[ray b]

I think a clone/fake/repro would be more fun as a DD
then a car you would go nuts if it was bent
who is going to push a GTO hard and risk a 10 million loss

personally I would like a beck 550 with a 911 turbo running gear
or a 2002 with a M3 4 banger swaped in it

[sandy]

No, not unless Sandy decrees it so, thread starter's privilege.

It was pretty much out of control as a topic just to start off with and subsequently shot off in all sorts of interesting directions each making it all the better so go for it.

(However I am still waiting for an opportunity to gratuitously slide in an image of a Santa Fe 2900 class).

Edited by sandy, 06 November 2010 - 01:02.

[David Birchall]

I think a clone/fake/repro would be more fun as a DD
then a car you would go nuts if it was bent
who is going to push a GTO hard and risk a 10 million loss

personally I would like a beck 550 with a 911 turbo running gear
or a 2002 with a M3 4 banger swaped in it

You start out OK with the suggestion of a GTO replica-presumably not a 240Z based POS?

After that you rather lose me-what is the point of a replica 550 with an engine it was never designed for?
Cars become icons because of what they are-not because of what they are not!
A 550 was a brilliant car against the contemporary sports racing cars-with a 4 cylinder engine producing perhaps 150 bhp on narrow tires.
If you change any of that you have a KIT CAR

ps It doesn't cost 10 million to fix a bent GTO-any more than it costs 10 million to repair a Austin Healey/Aston Martin/Porsche/Alfa Romeo etc, etc...

[john aston]

The fact a car is or was available in component form does not detract from its appeal. Some glorious GT40 reps around - pity the fake snake Cobra industry does not have higher standards though- am sure I am not the only one who adores the purity of the 289 rather than the bloated silliness of some 427s. And my Caterham is often called a kit car -sticks and stones etc ..but very few cars on the above list offer a better or purer driving experience I suspect . Wish I knew from experience- anybody got a 275GTB to lend me ?

Edited by john aston, 06 November 2010 - 18:42.

[Bob Riebe]

'66 L-72 Corvette
1970 Boss 302
'69 Charger 500
Maserati Bora
Cobra Coupe
Corvette GS
British version Cobra Coupe
Alco PA
Baldwin Sharknose
Super-charged Avanti

[Lee Nicolle]

My list is personal preference and the cars I know and understand.
72 XA Falcon GT manual 4 door. A Ph4 would be lovely but unobtainable and would be so scarey to drive in idiot traffic.The early ones were just a little stronger in the engine.

71 LC Bathurst XU1. More interesting than an LJ.

E49 Valiant Charger. Best of them to drive.

Charger VH 340 manual. Very unofficial but a few did escape Chrysler.

Monaro HK GTS 327. The original and the best.

Late HG 350 Monaro. Reputedly the fastest early Monaro.

69 Alloyblock 427 Copo Camaro. Like the Bob Jane racecar. If your going to have a big engine you need a reasonably light one!

69/70 Boss 302 Mustang. Or failing that a 4V Cleveland one. The best shape Mustang made though no boot space or rear seat room.

70 340 manual Dodge Challenger. [or a similar Cuda!]

70 1/2 LT1 Camaro. Nicer to drive than a Z28 and possibly quicker.

And for something different a Japanese production 240z with all the goodies that the export ones didnt seem to get. [Or a shorty 260Z]

I have owned or at least driven most of these models though most were not as were made production.

[sandy]

Alco PA
Baldwin Sharknose

Surely an A-B-B-A EMD E8

[F3Wrench]

I've read through this thread hoping to see some REALLY weird and rare names, just to see if I'd ever heard of them The point has been well made though, that if a car is rare it was probably because it was altogether pretty awful; not only to drive, but to maintain, and possibly full of design faults.

Perhaps I can chuck in a few names which constitute the rare-but-bonkers category?

Peerless - why anyone would think this "sporting" barge would be much fun with a Ford Consul engine, I haven't a clue
Pegaso - a Spanish Ferrari! (Not)
Facel Vega - just love these cars, but not sure why...
Warwick - actually saw one being raced at Castle Combe earlier in the year; amazing!
De Lorean - a car with a reputation built on a successful film (and nothing else)

and possibly...
The original Renault-engined Lotus Europa - what a horrible little car that was.

There, I feel better now.

[Allan Lupton]

Not sure which Peerless you can mean, but the one that became the Warwick had a TR2 engine, not a Ford Consul.

[elansprint72]

I've read through this thread hoping to see some REALLY weird and rare names, just to see if I'd ever heard of them The point has been well made though, that if a car is rare it was probably because it was altogether pretty awful; not only to drive, but to maintain, and possibly full of design faults.

Perhaps I can chuck in a few names which constitute the rare-but-bonkers category?

Peerless - why anyone would think this "sporting" barge would be much fun with a Ford Consul engine, I haven't a clue
Pegaso - a Spanish Ferrari! (Not)
Facel Vega - just love these cars, but not sure why...
Warwick - actually saw one being raced at Castle Combe earlier in the year; amazing!
De Lorean - a car with a reputation built on a successful film (and nothing else)

and possibly...
The original Renault-engined Lotus Europa - what a horrible little car that was.

There, I feel better now.

I thought that Peerless used TR3 mechanicals; the one which raced at Le Mans did. According to "reports" the road cars were good for 120mph. Warwick, to my untutored eye, seems pretty much like the same car.
Peerless/Warwick


EDIT: Apologies Allan, I was not contradicting your TR comment; our posts crossed!

Edited by elansprint72, 09 November 2010 - 09:54.

[hipperson]

A few here I was fortunate to own in the 70s & 80s...drool if you like

GT40/1005...(£4600)


1971 Daytona ( £2800)



1974 Dino 246GTS ( £5500)....365GT 2+2 ( £2200)



1970 Miura S...(£4000)...bought from Twiggy



1966 GTB ally body long nose (£2600) here with first wife bless her in 1972



Lambo 400GT ( £6000) ex McCartney...this recent pic......with the same owner that I sold it to in the 80s




I put the purchase prices in so you can all have a good larf........................many more fantastic cars but the photos would take forever to locate.

Edited by hipperson, 09 November 2010 - 10:03.

[hipperson]

Couple more here.........this was mid 80s and cars like this started to get dear

512 Boxer ( £15,000) this replaced a 365 Boxer ( £12,000) also shown 1973 yellow 911 RSL ( £7000) this replaced a 1972 black 911RS ( £5500)



1985 was the end..........DIVORCE

For the next three years a very acceptable Audi Quattro 20v Turbo..........

[Redstorm]

Divorce is tragic in so many ways.......

(Everyone, more pics so us lurkers can drool )

[hipperson]

Bit of a sad story this........1971 Dad & I went up north in Mum's Sunbeam Tiger to Bucklow Hill , wherever that is , to look at 1962 GTO that a chap called Brian Classic was selling. It was if I recall £6200.
Never got to drive it but Dad was unhappy about dealing with Northerners although I thought the fellow was fine...I would wouldn't I... I wanted the car.
Anyway after a lot of shilly-shallying Dad announced he wouldn't be paying that sort of money for a 'wap' car.
So we came home.

The next week we bought the GT40 from an true upstanding southerner.... photographer Julian Seddon.
No problems there..in London and a Ford

[hipperson]

Few more........these arr 40 year Polaroids so a bit weak.

1967 Iso Grifo 5.3........about £3000 bought from trouser splitting pop star PJ Proby



This circa 1974...The Miura plus my late brothers 4.7 Bora....we used this as a family pool car. I think it was £4500..the brakes were fantastic compared with the Miura.



As I got back on track after the 1985 agg I bought this fantastic bit of kit in I think 1989
A Group N Rally Cosworth which had a great first year in 1986 with George Donaldson and TNFer Fred Gallagher.
It was so quick....reputed the GPN max of 300BHP was I suspect more.

[F3Wrench]

Not sure which Peerless you can mean, but the one that became the Warwick had a TR2 engine, not a Ford Consul.

Correct. Got my names mixed up - the car I meant was called a "Paramount". Pretty sure that had a Consul engine.

[RogerFrench]

Lotus Elan; K3 MG; Dino 246; Aston-Martin DB4GT Zagato; Bugatti 35 or 37 or 51 or really rare a 39; Rolls-Royce P3; Bentley R-type Continental.

Only 7, but they'll do me, thank you.

[Bob Riebe]

Facel Vega - just love these cars, but not sure why...

OH my, amazing I forgot about this one, one of my all time favorites, and one I would snatch-up in a heart-beat if I could.

Now put in the Ed Pink alloy version of the early Hemi, and we would be all set to rock-and-roll!

Edited by Bob Riebe, 09 November 2010 - 19:08.