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Ferrari and McLaren team leaders, who do you prefer?


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#1 Andy35

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 16:17

Times have changed, thought I would just chuck this up in the air for your thoughts on the new era.

Jean Todt and Ron Dennis or Whitmarsh and Domenicali?

Andy

Edited by AndyW35, 03 November 2010 - 16:26.


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#2 rm111

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 16:19

Are you talking about drivers or management?

#3 Andy35

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 16:20

Are you talking about drivers or management?


Damn you guys post fast ! :D Now updated

Andy

#4 Smile17

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 16:21

Whitmarsh and Domenicali, without any doubt!!



#5 Dunder

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 16:23

Times have changed, as you say, and both Whitmarsh and Domenicalli come across more like management consultants than racing men.

I am sure that fits with the way the teams are structured and organised today and that their role is a necessary one but I find it hard to be enthused by Whitmarsh (I would be the same with Stefano if I was a Ferrari follower) in the way I was when Ron was in charge of the racing operation.

#6 Ragingjamaican

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 16:27

I think Jean Todt knew what was right for his team, especially in 2007, shame he left. Big loss to Ferrari...Domenicalli, likeable guy, he would be good, if he wasn't Di Montzemlos puppet.

And definitely Martin Whitmarsh over Ron Dennis. Ron Dennis was just a control freak, and let great drivers (Raikkonen, Montoya, Alonso) leave his team with bad managment skills.

#7 rm111

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 16:27

Whitmarsh and Domenicali, without any doubt!!

Have to agree although i didnt mind Dennis to much, even though he got a bit annoying towards the end, trying to look pittyful and the cringeworthy standing ovations he got from the team after spygate. Always hated Todt mind you!

#8 boldhakka

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 16:33

Todt and Dennis by a long shot. They had their faults, but Domenically and Whitmarsh are like the middle-managers who became CEOs after the founders left (not exactly, but you get what I mean).

#9 kismet

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 16:36

Of the four, Ron's the only one who rises above general mehness so I guess my answer is Dennis and Todt.


#10 Smile17

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 16:47

Of the four, Ron's the only one who rises above general mehness so I guess my answer is Dennis and Todt.


Looking at the way he managed 2007 , makes me think he was the worst ever! Yes, I'm talking about ron dennis.

Edited by Smile17, 03 November 2010 - 16:50.


#11 Hollow

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 17:32

Looking at the way he managed 2007 , makes me think he was the worst ever! Yes, I'm talking about ron dennis.


Well, British press pushed him to do what he did. He also seems to love Lewis for whatever the reasons. Don't forget personal emotions often cloud your judgement. It really backfired, especially if Alonso ends up winning WDC's with Ferrari.

#12 expert

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 17:35

I think Stefano and Martin both seem like genuinely nice guys.

But for F1 entertainment and character I'd take Todt and Dennis any day.

#13 Yorkie

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 17:38

Times have changed, thought I would just chuck this up in the air for your thoughts on the new era.

Jean Todt and Ron Dennis or Whitmarsh and Domenicali?

Andy

Whitmarsh and Domenicelli

#14 JustinCider

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 18:26

Well, British press pushed him to do what he did. He also seems to love Lewis for whatever the reasons. Don't forget personal emotions often cloud your judgement. It really backfired, especially if Alonso ends up winning WDC's with Ferrari.


Utter and total bullshit. If you think the Britsh press control ANY team then you're seriously deluded. How can you talk about personal emotions clouding judgment when you have collectively accused an entire nation's press of influencing decisions ? The only reason i've not reported your post is because i want to redress your statement in a public environment.

Back on topic. Domencialli seems the most personable character by some margin. He's always around for an interview, seems very well educated, approachable and genuinely enthusiastic about the sport. Martin Whitmarsh is still a little too bit corporate for my liking. However, if it came down to results, and results alone then i would find it hard to split a hair between Dennis and Todt. I think that they are more alike than most people realise.

#15 Bonaventura

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 18:33

Whitmarsh and Domenicali, without any doubt!!

Domenicali is owned by Santander
Whitmarsh talks too much.

Edited by Bonaventura, 03 November 2010 - 18:35.


#16 Tuxy

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 18:34

I like Whitmarsh. So much better than that despicable dick-cheese Ron Dennis.

Todt was very good, obviously.

Both forms of driver management are fine.

Edited by Tuxy, 03 November 2010 - 18:35.


#17 Watkins74

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 18:36

Utter and total bullshit. If you think the Britsh press control ANY team then you're seriously deluded. How can you talk about personal emotions clouding judgment when you have collectively accused an entire nation's press of influencing decisions ? The only reason i've not reported your post is because i want to redress your statement in a public environment.

Back on topic. Domencialli seems the most personable character by some margin. He's always around for an interview, seems very well educated, approachable and genuinely enthusiastic about the sport. Martin Whitmarsh is still a little too bit corporate for my liking. However, if it came down to results, and results alone then i would find it hard to split a hair between Dennis and Todt. I think that they are more alike than most people realise.

What? Report his post for having an opinion? What were going to "Report" his post for?

#18 JustinCider

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 18:39

What? Report his post for having an opinion? What were going to "Report" his post for?



The "British Press" remarks. It's a massive, sweeping generalisation which i find offensive. If you wish to discuss this topic further, then feel free to PM me, as this is way off topic.

#19 Dunder

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 19:16

Looking at the way he managed 2007 , makes me think he was the worst ever! Yes, I'm talking about ron dennis.


Up until Hungary, what specifically did McLaren/Dennis do wrong?
Hamilton showed early in the season that he was capable of competing with Alonso which surprised just about everyone.

What happened in Q3 in Hungary was entirely the result of two totally intransigent drivers losing their heads. I don't see what Dennis could have done differently TBH. What happened after Hungary was entirely the result of that afternoon.


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#20 JustinCider

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 19:19

Up until Hungary, what specifically did McLaren/Dennis do wrong?
Hamilton showed early in the season that he was capable of competing with Alonso which surprised just about everyone.

What happened in Q3 in Hungary was entirely the result of two totally intransigent drivers losing their heads. I don't see what Dennis could have done differently TBH. What happened after Hungary was entirely the result of that afternoon.


Well said.

:up:

#21 rm111

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 19:22

Up until Hungary, what specifically did McLaren/Dennis do wrong?
.

What apart from patronising Alonso from the moment he joined Maca? Well his comments after Monaco didn't help!

#22 Bonaventura

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 19:25

Times have changed, thought I would just chuck this up in the air for your thoughts on the new era.

Jean Todt and Ron Dennis or Whitmarsh and Domenicali?

Andy

Todt, Whitmarsh and Domenicali were/are replaceable employees
Ron Dennis = McLaren

#23 Hollow

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 19:25

Everybody seems to remember Hungary. It all started after Monaco GP. Anyway, a difficult situation for ANY team manager.

#24 Ragingjamaican

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 19:43

To be honest, i think the British press did cause a bit of it, they did this year too with the Red Bull drivers...

#25 Dunder

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 19:49

What apart from patronising Alonso from the moment he joined Maca? Well his comments after Monaco didn't help!


I said specifically. How, specifically, was Alonso patronised?


#26 Dunder

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 20:00

Everybody seems to remember Hungary. It all started after Monaco GP. Anyway, a difficult situation for ANY team manager.


In the case of Monaco, one driver complained about not being treated fairly and the FIA chose to investigate but did nothing.

In the case of Hungary, one driver disobeyed team instructions and then argued with them, the other driver then retaliated by blocking the pitbox. The FIA chose to investigate and imposed penalties. I don't want to rehash old arguments but whatever happened then destroyed Alonso's relationship with Dennis and the team.

That is why people remember Hungary.

Allowing drivers to race against each other (as was reiterated after Monaco) is not wrong, this year with Hamilton and Button shows that it more than possible as long as both drivers understand the situation and behave sensibly. The fault in 2007 laid squarely on the shoulders of the drivers IMHO.

#27 Smile17

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 20:00

Up until Hungary, what specifically did McLaren/Dennis do wrong?
Hamilton showed early in the season that he was capable of competing with Alonso which surprised just about everyone.

What happened in Q3 in Hungary was entirely the result of two totally intransigent drivers losing their heads. I don't see what Dennis could have done differently TBH. What happened after Hungary was entirely the result of that afternoon.


pure ignorance!
He was the reason why Mclaren ended with nothing, oh wait they ended up with a massive fine. He chose to make history with Lewis, fine for me, but he should have won the WDC if he was so sure Hamilton could do it! Mclaren will regret it forever (and believe me they do regret it) They could have won 07, 08 and 09 if they gave Alonso proper treatment. Ron Dennis has played a big part in that. Sorry for going a bit off-topic again.

Everybody seems to remember Hungary. It all started after Monaco GP. Anyway, a difficult situation for ANY team manager.


Sorry but Ron Dennis made it difficult. Oh and it started way earlier. When it started Alonso was still at Renault. During the first GP we saw the first real signs...

#28 Dunder

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 20:05

pure ignorance!
He was the reason why Mclaren ended with nothing, oh wait they ended up with a massive fine. He chose to make history with Lewis, fine for me, but he should have won the WDC if he was so sure Hamilton could do it! Mclaren will regret it forever (and believe me they do regret it) They could have won 07, 08 and 09 if they gave Alonso proper treatment. Ron Dennis has played a big part in that. Sorry for going a bit off-topic again.



Sorry but Ron Dennis made it difficult. Oh and it started way earlier. When it started Alonso was still at Renault. During the first GP we saw the first real signs...


Please explain what you mean by proper treatment.
Up until Hungary, when between them Dennis and Alonso destroyed their relationship, what should McLaren have done differently?


#29 Stuko

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 20:06

Martin and Stefano.

.....actually everybody but Ron and Jean.

Edited by Stuko, 03 November 2010 - 20:07.


#30 Ragingjamaican

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 20:06

To say that if the relationship with Alonso didn't break up meant that they could have won, the 07 and 09 championship. is just stupid.

First of all for 07 the drivers at McLaren in 07 were always going to get equal treatment as Dennis loved Hamilton so much, and that still would have probably lead to Kimi challenging the title.

And in 09 the big rule changes, i really don't think Alonso would have helped much, ask every engineer, drivers don't do much with developing the car...

#31 DarthRonzo

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 20:11

Ferrari and McLaren team leaders, who do you prefer? :eek:

The first gay thread of Autosport :lol:

#32 Hollow

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 20:20

QUOTE
Up until Hungary, when between them Dennis and Alonso destroyed their relationship, what should McLaren have done differently?


After all these years and people still don't get it. Amazing.

Sorry but Ron Dennis made it difficult.


As I said, it's difficult to fight against your instincs.

Edited by Hollow, 03 November 2010 - 20:23.


#33 Dunder

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 20:27

After all these years and people still don't get it. Amazing.


Get what?
I get that a lot of people think (and would have wanted) Hamilton to play a No. 2 role in his first season.
I have a different opinion though.

If that is not "it", then what?


#34 Callisto

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 20:31

Well, British press pushed him to do what he did. He also seems to love Lewis for whatever the reasons. Don't forget personal emotions often cloud your judgement. It really backfired, especially if Alonso ends up winning WDC's with Ferrari.



After all these years and people still don't get it. Amazing.



As I said, it's difficult to fight against your instincs.

what is there to get..a ROOKIE was matching a 2x wdc(which nobodody expected)
the britsh press have no influence in f1 at all

#35 Hollow

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 20:38

I have a different opinion though.


I know. English team must support the British driver - if he's fast enough. Makes sense. Too bad it didn't make sense to Alonso. :)

Enough of this. We all know what happened.

Edited by Hollow, 03 November 2010 - 20:43.


#36 Dunder

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 20:48

I know. English team must support the British driver - if he's fast enough. Makes sense.


I have been a fan of McLaren for over 25 years and during that time have supported French, Brazilian and Finnish drivers every bit as much as British ones.
At the start of the 2007 season, I expected Alonso to be McLaren's best chance and wanted him to get past Hamilton at the pitstops in Australia.
I therefore don't accept your point.

After the first 5 or so races and Hamilton scoring podiums in each of them however, I think he had proved himself being worthy of being able to compete and would have been disappointed if McLaren had tried to hold him back.

Edited by Dunder, 03 November 2010 - 20:49.


#37 Hollow

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 20:57

and would have been disappointed if McLaren had tried to hold him back.


Understandable. But the status of a 2 times WDC should have been respected.

#38 Callisto

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 20:58

I know. English team must support the British driver - if he's fast enough. Makes sense. Too bad it didn't make sense to Alonso. :)

Enough of this. We all know what happened.

being british in an english? team has nothing to do with it at all(except to you)
if he is fast enough?.lewis was fast enough

#39 Callisto

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 21:00

Understandable. But the status of a 2 times WDC should have been respected.

if a rookie is matching a 2xwdc,then why should alonsos status be respected(i am a fan of alonso,i am not attacking him)

Edited by Callisto, 03 November 2010 - 21:01.


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#40 Callisto

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 21:04

on topic
stefano and ron
(i do like mw also as a team leader,but grew up with ron at the helm)

#41 AMG FAN

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 21:17

Understandable. But the status of a 2 times WDC should have been respected.

geez Alonso isn't the first 2 time WDC,you want royal treatment then go out there and earn it,when you are getting your a** handed to you on your silver trophy then you have to step up your game or get beaten like a man....how was Alonso not respected? because he was expected to go out there and race? what should Mclaren have done to show him respect? put out a red carpet for him at every race?

#42 Callisto

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 21:29

geez Alonso isn't the first 2 time WDC,you want royal treatment then go out there and earn it,when you are getting your a** handed to you on your silver trophy then you have to step up your game or get beaten like a man....how was Alonso not respected? because he was expected to go out there and race? what should Mclaren have done to show him respect? put out a red carpet for him at every race?

my thoughts exactly :up:

Edited by Callisto, 03 November 2010 - 21:29.


#43 Smile17

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 21:47

geez Alonso isn't the first 2 time WDC,you want royal treatment then go out there and earn it,when you are getting your a** handed to you on your silver trophy then you have to step up your game or get beaten like a man....how was Alonso not respected? because he was expected to go out there and race? what should Mclaren have done to show him respect? put out a red carpet for him at every race?


No, but they did exactly that for his rookie teammate (if you know what I mean), can you believe it?

#44 Callisto

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 21:50

No, but they did exactly that for his rookie teammate (if you know what I mean), can you believe it?

no what do you mean?
yes a rookie teammate matching a 2x wdc can you believe THAT?

#45 abc

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 21:51

No, but they did exactly that for his rookie teammate (if you know what I mean), can you believe it?

Jesus you are whinner par excellence. Go away

#46 Redstorm

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 22:01

As was mentioned somewhere before the "Alonso/Hamilton War Of The Ages," Todt and Dennis are racing men. SD and MW are corporate men, the COO/CEO type.

I'll take the racers any day over a CEO... F1 needs some old school attitude to bust up this staunch, PC world it's been drawn into. We watch for entertainment and excitement. It's our breathe of fresh air AWAY from the office. Don't corporatize the sport anymore.

#47 dav115

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 22:02

Dennis I really admire for the way he worked himself up the corporate ladder in McLaren, from mechanic to chairman, though I question very much his driver management skills. Whitmarsh I like as he seems like a really down to earth, straight talking guy. I think he is much stronger in the driver management department than Dennis. Domenicali I think gets a bad press in the English speaking world; from my own observations, and as someone commented on this board very recently, he comes across like a much slicker operator when being interviewed in Italian. I think he's a good leader and motivator for the team. That all said, give me Jean Todt any day of the week. He's not particularly open to the media, nor anywhere as friendly as Whitmarsh/Domenicali, but he'd have taken a bullet for Ferrari when he worked there so large was his passion for the team. Did I mention he's overseen quite a few wins too?

#48 olliek88

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 22:15

As was mentioned somewhere before the "Alonso/Hamilton War Of The Ages," Todt and Dennis are racing men. SD and MW are corporate men, the COO/CEO type.

I'll take the racers any day over a CEO... F1 needs some old school attitude to bust up this staunch, PC world it's been drawn into. We watch for entertainment and excitement. It's our breathe of fresh air AWAY from the office. Don't corporatize the sport anymore.


Im kinda in between, i love the more "old school" attitude of dennis and todt but SD and MW are so much more approachable and open with the media and interviews and we get more info from them, im thinking some kind of stefano/dennis hybrid would be perfect :p

#49 mclarensmps

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 22:18

Dennis and Todt. As much as I despised JT, he was 1000x the team boss Domenicalli is. Don't get me wrong, Demenicalli has his strengths, a good team manager he is not.

#50 AMG FAN

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 23:15

No, but they did exactly that for his rookie teammate (if you know what I mean), can you believe it?

no they didn't..the truth is that Alonso could have beat Hamilton but instead he decided to stay rattled and expect special treatment,when i remember Canada and Hungary,i shake my head,how many times did he run wide at turn 1 in Canada? twice in a row and in Hungary instead of focusing on beating Hamilton to turn 1 when Hamilton screwed him,he decided to retaliate on track....as a WDC he should know better not to get into such silly battles with a hot headed rookie who is trying to make a name off him because that's exactly what Hamilton was doing,as far as i know,Alonso acted in a way that i expected someone like Hamilton to act at that time,he didn't act like someone who had won two titles and knows how to win titles.