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Mateschitz: Better not world champion than a manipulator


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#1 Bbbut

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 13:52

http://translate.goo...r_10110511.html

Dietrich Mateschitz given his team an explicit ban on team orders.
"In the worst case, we are not world champions. We stick to our philosophy, that it is all about the sport and that we should not even think to intervene or manipulate. If Red Bull would apply a team order now, it would be called immediately: 'Ha, ha, all year you have been talking big, now you do it as well, you're no better than anyone else.' "

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#2 Seanspeed

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 13:54

Good to hear. Will make it easier for Ferrari to win the WDC! :clap:

But really, it just goes to show that sometimes its best to just shut your mouth about things, cuz now it seems they're willing to throw away a championship just so they dont look like hypocrites. :p

#3 Jackmancer

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 14:05

Everybody should stop crying about it. The FiA makes the rules and if they're unhappy about that they should criticise the FiA (or WMSC for the punishment).

#4 gaston_foix

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 14:07

That's very god for Alonso. Well done Meteschitz... I like you.

#5 goingthedistance

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 14:09

There is no way on earth such a statement would be being made if Vettel was leading Webber.

Come to think of it, I recall Horner pressuring Webber to acknowledge he was ready to support Vettel in Brazil last year, which he eventually (reluctantly) did.

Edited by goingthedistance, 05 November 2010 - 14:10.


#6 flyer121

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 14:11

Good to hear. Will make it easier for Ferrari to win the WDC! :clap:

But really, it just goes to show that sometimes its best to just shut your mouth about things, cuz now it seems they're willing to throw away a championship just so they dont look like hypocrites. :p


If he is such an idealist, then did he say anything last year when SV was leading? I dont know for certain.
I wasnt into forums last year so may have missed it.

If he is being hypocritical now , then we know where the real backing for SV comes from.

Although I still want to believe him personally and it can only be a good thing for the sport so deeply tainted by Ferrari by their #1 philosophy and bending / breaking / making rules all these years , that even normal fans come to think of Team Orders as a matter of course.

Which other team with individual title has this concept of team order ?

Edited by flyer121, 05 November 2010 - 14:14.


#7 Clatter

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 14:12

http://translate.goo...r_10110511.html

Dietrich Mateschitz given his team an explicit ban on team orders.
"In the worst case, we are not world champions. We stick to our philosophy, that it is all about the sport and that we should not even think to intervene or manipulate. If Red Bull would apply a team order now, it would be called immediately: 'Ha, ha, all year you have been talking big, now you do it as well, you're no better than anyone else.' "


Considering their actions and obvious support of Vettel over Webber during the season I read that as meaning "We want to win with Vettel, not Webber".

#8 zeph

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 14:12

More fuel to the fire. Ecclestone must be giddy with pleasure! :lol:

Circus et panem. Maybe we should believe the hype, but I'll try to keep some perspective.

#9 showtime

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 14:13

http://translate.goo...r_10110511.html

Dietrich Mateschitz given his team an explicit ban on team orders.
"In the worst case, we are not world champions. We stick to our philosophy, that it is all about the sport and that we should not even think to intervene or manipulate. If Red Bull would apply a team order now, it would be called immediately: 'Ha, ha, all year you have been talking big, now you do it as well, you're no better than anyone else.' "



You already proved many times you're not better than anyone else, he must be forgetting what happened in Silverstone for example.

#10 Supersleeper

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 14:13

There is no way on earth such a statement would be being made if Vettel was leading Webber.

...or if the statements from the team lose all credibility. Funny DM claims parity but has not interest in it's institution in the team....

...wouldn't want to upset his friend Helmut.


#11 Jim Warbic

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 14:14

Considering their actions and obvious support of Vettel over Webber during the season I read that as meaning "We want to win with Vettel, not Webber".


Yep they are already manipulators in my eyes, what a hypocrite.

#12 JackTorrance

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 14:14

:drunk:

What a tool. I didnt hear this at Silverstone.

#13 iotar

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 14:17


Red Bull also tried to use team orders. Unnecessary, clumsy and stupid
with "leave enough room", different engine settings and (not) passing on the message by race engineers.

Mateschitz is a shameless hypocrite. Where was his bul..it "racing philosophy" in Turkey?


#14 Rinehart

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 14:19

That's very god for Alonso. Well done Meteschitz... I like you.


The problems at Red Bull are Marko and Christian. Marko is a manipulative little turd who wants his protege to be WDC. And Christian is just a complete amature caught in the PR cross-fire.
I personally beleive Mateschitz is being personally honest but he's employing people with agendas.


#15 mlsnoopy

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 14:20

At the end of the year fans are the one, that judge the WDC. I have a feeling that if Alonso wins it, we will have a similar situation as in 94.

#16 TIFOlonSO

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 14:20

Good news for Ferrari.
So if it's Vet, WEb, Alo at Brazil we'll have Alo losing 3 to web (+8 still) and 10 to Vet (still +15).

#17 Rinehart

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 14:20

Red Bull also tried to use team orders. Unnecessary, clumsy and stupid
with "leave enough room", different engine settings and (not) passing on the message by race engineers.

Mateschitz is a shameless hypocrite. Where was his bul..it "racing philosophy" in Turkey?


You presume that Mateschitz was compliant in that. I personally don't think he was. If anything, he is revealing himself to be somewhat naive however...

#18 Jim Warbic

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 14:22

The problems at Red Bull are Marko and Christian. Marko is a manipulative little turd who wants his protege to be WDC. And Christian is just a complete amature caught in the PR cross-fire.
I personally beleive Mateschitz is being personally honest but he's employing people with agendas.


Mateschitz is just as bad. At any other team Marko would of been gagged or shown the door friendship or not.

#19 undersquare

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 14:25

Good news for Ferrari.
So if it's Vet, WEb, Alo at Brazil we'll have Alo losing 3 to web (+8 still) and 10 to Vet (still +15).


Good news for McLaren & neutrals too. Sebi, Lewis, xxx, ...Mark, xxx, ....Fernando :up:

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#20 Smile17

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 14:26

http://translate.goo...r_10110511.html

Dietrich Mateschitz given his team an explicit ban on team orders.
"In the worst case, we are not world champions. We stick to our philosophy, that it is all about the sport and that we should not even think to intervene or manipulate. If Red Bull would apply a team order now, it would be called immediately: 'Ha, ha, all year you have been talking big, now you do it as well, you're no better than anyone else.' "


Saying so is one thing, doing so is another...

#21 KateLM

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 14:28

Well thats helpful isn't it.

"In the worst case, we are not world champions. We stick to our philosophy, that it is all about the sport and that we should not even think to intervene or manipulate. If Red Bull would apply a team order now, it would be called immediately: 'Ha, ha, all year you have been talking big, now you do it as well, you're no better than anyone else.' "
There was quite a simple solution to that problem - don't get on your (dubious) moral high horse in the first place.

And on another point, I can't believe that now Horner has chosen to moan that Ferrari have a better engine than them. Firstly, its been even more unreliable than the Renault. And secondly, they had Ferrari engines before and chose to palm them off the Toro Rosso! Interestingly, if they hadn't gone for Renault they might not have had Webber in the first place, if the rumours about that are true...

Edited by KateLM, 05 November 2010 - 14:34.


#22 Lights

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 14:30

Mateschitz, a man of his word. Unless Webber is about to win Istanbul, or Vettel needs a new front wing in Silverstone. Then it's all Mark's problem ofcourse.

#23 zeph

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 14:33

I personally beleive Mateschitz is being personally honest but he's employing people with agendas.


You presume that Mateschitz was compliant in that. I personally don't think he was. If anything, he is revealing himself to be somewhat naive however...


Right. Because only honest and naive people can build and brand a corporate empire around a questionable energy drink like RedBull.


#24 Jim Warbic

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 14:33


I will laugh my ass off if Red Bull don't get in this situation again for a few years and Vettel leaves them for a new team. They arrogantly seem to think that they are going to be up the top forever. If Webber moves on or retires I hope they make shit boxes for the next few years.
Muppets :down:

#25 DILLIGAF

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 14:34

http://translate.goo...r_10110511.html

Dietrich Mateschitz given his team an explicit ban on team orders.
"In the worst case, we are not world champions. We stick to our philosophy, that it is all about the sport and that we should not even think to intervene or manipulate. If Red Bull would apply a team order now, it would be called immediately: 'Ha, ha, all year you have been talking big, now you do it as well, you're no better than anyone else.' "


At least it's good to see he's finally stamped some authority instead of the letting the two muppets Marko & Horner turn it into a comedy show.

As a Webber fan i'm disappointed but he's still got a great chance. It's his for the taking if he's good enough.

As a Ferrari/Alonso fan i'm elated that Red Bull are limiting their chances.

And although i'm not a big Lewis fan, he'll be salivating about the possible chances he may get if Fred has an engine go & the Red Bulls get in a tangle on track.


#26 goingthedistance

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 14:39

There is a really interesting scenario brewing here.

Let's say we get Vettel #1 Webber #2 and Alonso #3 in Brazil, and we have them running in the same order in Abu Dhabi. If they finish like that Vettel can't win the championship, but if he switched places with Mark on the last lap he could. It is now clear that it will ultimately be 100% Sebastian's decision to make that call. Imagine if he doesn't. He'll be cast as a villain who screwed the team out of a WDC. Imagine if he does - he'll be a selfless hero, a team player of the finest order...

#27 bonjon1979a

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 14:41

Considering their actions and obvious support of Vettel over Webber during the season I read that as meaning "We want to win with Vettel, not Webber".


This

#28 TIFOlonSO

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 14:43

There is a really interesting scenario brewing here.

Let's say we get Vettel #1 Webber #2 and Alonso #3 in Brazil, and we have them running in the same order in Abu Dhabi. If they finish like that Vettel can't win the championship, but if he switched places with Mark on the last lap he could. It is now clear that it will ultimately be 100% Sebastian's decision to make that call. Imagine if he doesn't. He'll be cast as a villain who screwed the team out of a WDC. Imagine if he does - he'll be a selfless hero, a team player of the finest order...


No doubt.
And with that scenario in Brazil Alo would still win with a 2nd behind Webber at Abu Dhabi.

#29 cheapracer

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 14:43

Bullshit, History books only tell the surface story and Red Bull are fools for not understanding that.

Picked at random - "And the 1978 WDC is Mario Andretti" - how many here have a clue as to what happened during the season?

20 years from now the history books will only show "2010 - Ferrari, driver Alonso" and no one will know or recognise Red Bull's "We stuck to our philosophy" rot.
(hypothetical folks, don't get your knickers in a knot).

#30 flyer121

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 14:44

There is a really interesting scenario brewing here.

Let's say we get Vettel #1 Webber #2 and Alonso #3 in Brazil, and we have them running in the same order in Abu Dhabi. If they finish like that Vettel can't win the championship, but if he switched places with Mark on the last lap he could. It is now clear that it will ultimately be 100% Sebastian's decision to make that call. Imagine if he doesn't. He'll be cast as a villain who screwed the team out of a WDC. Imagine if he does - he'll be a selfless hero, a team player of the finest order...


SV can be petulant at times , but I can bet anything that he will let Webbo thru in the scenario you described, whatever DM or anyone else says.

Edited by flyer121, 05 November 2010 - 14:44.


#31 iotar

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 14:44

You presume that Mateschitz was compliant in that. I personally don't think he was. If anything, he is revealing himself to be somewhat naive however...


He's running (indirectly) this whole team. Not on operational level but certainly he's the one dictating policies. Like Vettel=number 1 driver no matter what. Turkey (dumbest thing possible - team order at this stage of the season and with Webber in front of Vettel) was the result of this policy. Do you see someone in "advisor" role at McLaren or Ferrari (Marko). Why? Because there's no need for that in those teams.
Mateschitz only started despising favouritism after stink that spread out after wing gate. As it turns out hip, cool drink image and behind the scenes "backstabbing" don't go well together.

The result - current avalanche of hypocrisy


#32 fed up

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 14:49

SV can be petulant at times , but I can bet anything that he will let Webbo thru in the scenario you described, whatever DM or anyone else says.


No way Jose.

I'll never forget the way he was harassing Lewis for 5th place in Brazil 2008. The guy is a baby face assassin, he would rather hell freeze over rather than hand Webber the wdc.

#33 flyer121

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 14:56

No way Jose.

I'll never forget the way he was harassing Lewis for 5th place in Brazil 2008. The guy is a baby face assassin, he would rather hell freeze over rather than hand Webber the wdc.


Now you make me laugh... Are you suggesting that all drivers should get out the way for any contenders in the last race?
Why run anyone else then , have a race only with drivers who have a shot at WDC.

Lewis wasn't his teammate and he was simply racing. Or perhaps he simply didnt like Lewis as much as Timo does :)
Or he chose Massa over Lewis - Cant blame him there either :lol: :lol:


And SV will not hand it to Webber out of love, he will hand it for RBR and the mechanics who have worked their asses off in the hope of a title.
If he doesnt, I am going to stop being his follower from that moment on. I am already a bit off him nowadays :)

Edited by flyer121, 05 November 2010 - 15:03.


#34 goingthedistance

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 14:57

No way Jose.

I'll never forget the way he was harassing Lewis for 5th place in Brazil 2008. The guy is a baby face assassin, he would rather hell freeze over rather than hand Webber the wdc.


I tend to agree. But I'd be very interested to see that scenario play out, or one like it, as it will be a display of his true character, something I think we don't really see that often. I honestly don't know what he'd do.

Edited by goingthedistance, 05 November 2010 - 14:57.


#35 Nitropower

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 14:58

Another load of BS. They give team orders as well, call it pre-race agreements if you want, or coded messages. We've all seen it. Besides they favour one ot their drivers and give him better strategies and material when possible.

Mateshitz, thumbs down.

#36 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 14:59

I tend to agree. But I'd be very interested to see that scenario play out, or one like it, as it will be a display of his true character, something I think we don't really see that often. I honestly don't know what he'd do.


Depends what you mean by true character. Is it when you are behind the wheel or when you are in interviews and in social situations? I think it's completely normal to be different people in those situations. Webber came out and said he would rather Jenson won the title than Sebastian last year. Why should we expect anything other than the same from Sebastian himself? Webber again this year is playing the media perfectly in getting people on his side as the team have cut him out of their plans. He's in tunnel vision mode now, he will do or say anything to help win this title as it's probably his last chance, he's got little to lose and he's playing a smart game. I wouldn't be surprised at all with another Red Bull tangle this weekend.

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 05 November 2010 - 15:01.


#37 Andrew Hope

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 15:04

Bullschitz!

#38 goingthedistance

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 15:12

Depends what you mean by true character. Is it when you are behind the wheel or when you are in interviews and in social situations? I think it's completely normal to be different people in those situations. Webber came out and said he would rather Jenson won the title than Sebastian last year. Why should we expect anything other than the same from Sebastian himself? Webber again this year is playing the media perfectly in getting people on his side as the team have cut him out of their plans. He's in tunnel vision mode now, he will do or say anything to help win this title as it's probably his last chance, he's got little to lose and he's playing a smart game. I wouldn't be surprised at all with another Red Bull tangle this weekend.



True nature is what I meant, and that is evident in both. I often get the impression that Vettel really wants to come out with something nasty about Webber in interviews, but holds it in...just. The real Vettel is only glimpsed by the public based on some things I have read (his nickname in the paddock is Princess Petal). Seems he failed to keep a lid on it this weekend given his latest dig (medical car).

Webber may have wanted Jenson to win more than Seb, but he did go on record to say he would play wingman in Brazil for him in '09. Obviously Mark and Jenson are good friends, and I think it's fair to say that Jenson was very deserving last year, so his comments were unsurprising. Webber has recently said very complimentary things about Alonso and they are going head to head for the WDC right now.

#39 kosmos

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 15:19

You are right Mr.Dietrich Mateschitz, let Fernando win the WDC and McLaren the WCC, after all your team is the epitome of fair game and equal support to your drivers.

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#40 ivanalesi

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 15:24

Check out all the publicity, can it be ANY better for Red Bull? They are here to sell, not create records. There are more headlines now than if they were winning every race Schumi style, we've got a 5 way into the final round and there's this constant should Vettel support Webber talk. Here comes Dietrich and says "it's a sport, let the best man win"! This is all mega for them.
This is exactly the best approach a company which actually profits from its involvement in F1 should get, they try to be as fair as possible. At the end of the day, the world champion is the best driver & the best should prove himself over the whole season against everybody incl. his teammate.
I know the history stuff and how it's part of racing and so on, but it's a rather stupid part of racing which doesn't add any good for the world of racing. People don't like fixings and team orders are a fixing. Michael Schumacher started this and claimed a number of titles using this tactic, he became the tsar of F1. He's to F1, what Rockefeller is to business. Schumacher is the most successful driver, Rockefeller is the most successful businessman. Just like Schumacher, he used a loophole in the law to become so successful. He was a freaking monopolist, he found the hole and used it. This hole did no good for the game, as with Schumacher, and it was forbidden by law last century. Monopolist practices were part of the game of sales for thousands of years and only just lately they were banned.
Team orders are exactly like monopolist practices, they are suppressing competition and competition is the engine of prosperity.
Because of the lack of team orders we've got 5 drivers in contention, if all teams were using team orders by now Vettel would have wrapped the championship. No Webber to steal his pts or defend and crash with. It makes a huge difference if you're only after the records, but the sport doesn't grow and the sponsors don't really get as much publicity as they would w/o team orders. The end result is losing $$$ . The winner won't lose money until one point, as Ferrari did in those years, but everybody else does lose because sponsors get less exposure since the sport is becoming boring.

Bullshit, History books only tell the surface story and Red Bull are fools for not understanding that.

Picked at random - "And the 1978 WDC is Mario Andretti" - how many here have a clue as to what happened during the season?

20 years from now the history books will only show "2010 - Ferrari, driver Alonso" and no one will know or recognise Red Bull's "We stuck to our philosophy" rot.
(hypothetical folks, don't get your knickers in a knot).


mmmmm, I don't think Red Bull care about history books. They sell cans - now. The 1978 WDC for Mario won't sell John Player's more packs - now.

#41 majkel

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 15:30

F***ing hypocrites, Red Bull is so full of sh1t that it will come out of Horner's ears soon.

#42 WhiteBlue

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 15:33

Mateschitz policy makes a lot of sense. Why should Red Bull piss of their future top driver to please a man who is consistently slower and continues to embarrass the team? Webber isn't worthy of a sacrifice by Red Bull or Vettel IMO. If he earns the support by staying in the race while Vettel is out after Brazil it is early enough to help him.

If he throws it away again - as I expect - then any sacrifice will be useless and contra productive.

#43 gaston_foix

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 15:35

Vettel is quite funny...
If Mark needs help then he should take the medical car

#44 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 15:38

...
Team orders are exactly like monopolist practices, they are suppressing competition and competition is the engine of prosperity.
...

fantastic speach. red bull couldn't write it better
BUT
there is turkey..there is silverstone

how do they fit into this fantastic theory on prosperity?

#45 Szoelloe

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 15:41

The problems at Red Bull are Marko and Christian. Marko is a manipulative little turd who wants his protege to be WDC. And Christian is just a complete amature caught in the PR cross-fire.
I personally beleive Mateschitz is being personally honest but he's employing people with agendas.


So true. Although given the circumstances I'd also add that Horner is handling this relatively well. But the one who is really tirelessly shoveling the shit in fan is Briatore from behind the curtains, the manipulative tard.


#46 Ricardo F1

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 15:45

fantastic speach. red bull couldn't write it better
BUT
there is turkey..there is silverstone

how do they fit into this fantastic theory on prosperity?

Silverstone Mark didn't find the wing an advantage, Vettel did, END OF GODDAM STORY. Jesus Christ I wish that would stop coming up.

Turkey is in the eye of the beholder, I still say Webber was an idiot that day and agree with Red Bull. :)


#47 iotar

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 15:53

Vettel is quite funny...
If Mark needs help then he should take the medical car


Is it the same guy with "my team mate left not enough room to overtake and it wasn't mu fault" excuse.
He seemed to need all the help possible then and still it wasn't enough. Quite funny indeed.


#48 Kompressor

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 15:56

Alonso has already been tainted with the same team orders brush that permanently tarred Schumacher. An athlete without honor is pathetic in my eyes. Team mates should not be forced to pull over, give up wins or crash on demand at the behest of some whining prima donna. :down:

#49 flyer121

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 15:57

Vettel is quite funny...
If Mark needs help then he should take the medical car



I dont find that funny in the least .... but I m hoping that he says these stupid things because of his poor command of English.

#50 RME

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 16:00

Silverstone Mark didn't find the wing an advantage, Vettel did, END OF GODDAM STORY. Jesus Christ I wish that would stop coming up.

Turkey is in the eye of the beholder, I still say Webber was an idiot that day and agree with Red Bull. :)



Bullshit. Give me a quote from Webber saying he hated that wing?

But Seriously, did Webber like did something bad to your family? Why do you hate him so much? :lol: