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How much of a penalty is Webber's extra weight over Vettel?


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#1 Madras

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 22:08

Webber is significantly taller than Vettel therefore is always going to weight more, this will mean he has less ballast he can move around the car to tune the weight distribution. Can anybody hazard a guess as to how much time he would typically lose each lap because of this?

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#2 jato

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 22:16

There was a few articles by both Mark Hughes and Autosport which mentioned that there was roughly a 10kg difference. When you take into account how close Webber has been to Vettel in the previously it could be that he is fractionally quicker than Vettel with the ballast available.

Last year and probably next it won't help him or any of the other taller drivers with KERs been introduced. Even less ballast to play with.

#3 KateLM

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 22:20

There was a few articles by both Mark Hughes and Autosport which mentioned that there was roughly a 10kg difference. When you take into account how close Webber has been to Vettel in the previously it could be that he is fractionally quicker than Vettel with the ballast available.

Last year and probably next it won't help him or any of the other taller drivers with KERs been introduced. Even less ballast to play with.

Didn't BMW have to run only one car with KERS last year because Kubica was too tall? Webber I think is a bit taller than him, so I wonder if that will cause more issues (presuming Webber is still there, that is).

Renault are going to have serious problems if they keep Petrov for next year, they've got the tallest line-up in F1!

#4 AlanWake

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 22:28

Massa is also 10 Kgs lighter than Alonso, so what?



#5 szym3k

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 22:31

Massa is also 10 Kgs lighter than Alonso, so what?


Alonso brings his 6 tenths.


#6 AlanWake

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 22:33

Alonso brings his 6 tenths.


Maybe :lol:

#7 sosidge

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 22:36

Button is bigger than Mark and was world champion?

Kubica is as tall as Mark yet teams actually want to sign him?



#8 szym3k

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 22:38

Button is bigger than Mark and was world champion?

Kubica is as tall as Mark yet teams actually want to sign him?


There's advantages/disadvantages to both. Ross Brawn said something interesting
about that last year.


#9 KateLM

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 22:38

Button is bigger than Mark and was world champion?

Kubica is as tall as Mark yet teams actually want to sign him?

No, he isn't.


#10 ForzaGTR

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 22:43

Size matters...?

#11 krapmeister

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 22:48

I am sure it restricts somewhat the ability to ultimately balance the car through ballast somewhat but don't think it is the sole reason why Vettel seems to just edge Mark on pace.

Perhaps Vettel gets just as much of an advantage from the slight tailwind as Marko blows kisses to him along pit straight... :lol:

#12 Madras

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 22:50

Massa is also 10 Kgs lighter than Alonso, so what?


Sorry, what do you mean so what?

#13 PayasYouRace

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 22:51

Will it make any difference next year with the fixed weight distribution? After all, the problem the taller drivers have had is not being able to arrange the ballast optimally.

#14 Madras

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 22:52

Button is bigger than Mark and was world champion?

Kubica is as tall as Mark yet teams actually want to sign him?


Button is not as tall as Webber and also Button had a different car to Webber when he won the Championship.

Kubica is fast, everybody knows that. And Webber is too, he's second in the Championship this year.

Try harder.

#15 Ferrim

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 22:56

No, he isn't.


He isn't a World Champion? :eek:

#16 krapmeister

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 23:08

Sorry, what do you mean so what?


I think he is trying to say that Alonso is faster despite Massa weighing 10kg less.

Thing is though, Alonso has been substantially faster than Massa - whereas the point of the discussion is with Vettel and Webber being so close in terms of pace, is the difference between the 2 drivers possibly explained by the Webber's extra weight?



#17 Clatter

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 23:49

Webber is significantly taller than Vettel therefore is always going to weight more, this will mean he has less ballast he can move around the car to tune the weight distribution. Can anybody hazard a guess as to how much time he would typically lose each lap because of this?


IMHO very little. The cars weight was increased this year so they have more than enough ballast to play with.


#18 King Six

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 23:52

They keep increasing the minimum weight to try and offset such disadvantages (and KERS) too. It's gone from like 605kg in 2008 to 640kg for 2011.

Funny that the cars still keep getting faster though! It's alot they've added onto the minimum weight of these cars.

I wonder how much they had to weigh back in 2004 or something.

The minimum weight includes drivers/fluids (but not fuel) and cameras and stuff like that. So an empty dry car probably weighs about 450-500Kg. (That's what Wiki says) - So the higher the minimum weight the more ballast they have to use/play around with which goes towards offsetting any extra driver weight. In theory.

Edited by King Six, 05 November 2010 - 23:55.


#19 solochamp07

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 00:09

I heard that Seb likes to keep very long toenails. That, along with his longer, fuller hair compensates for Webber's extra height, so we're back to even-steven. :rolleyes:

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#20 Sausage

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 00:25

Lewis is at a bigger disadvantage guys, he's got balls of steel.

#21 kandru

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 00:32

Webber is significantly taller than Vettel therefore is always going to weight more, this will mean he has less ballast he can move around the car to tune the weight distribution. Can anybody hazard a guess as to how much time he would typically lose each lap because of this?

if Webber can achieve the perfect weight distribution with the available ballast, then none. As it's been already pointed out, next year the car's minimum weight will be increased to 640kg and the weight distributions will be fixed (which I don't know it's due to a precautionary measure because of the change to Pirellis or just another measure limiting engineer's work, and hence, differences between cars and possibilities to overtake :well: )

#22 JosTheBoss

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 00:47

The weight issue is a substantial issue for Webber. He's doing a great job to be so close to SebVet in quallys.

10kgs of ballast optimisation would make a quantifiable performance difference in a car weighing only 625 kilograms. Making Sebastian carry that 10 kilos where Mark is forced to carry it would be an interesting exercise.


#23 JosTheBoss

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 00:53

Button is bigger than Mark and was world champion?


I've stood next to Webber, and he's a good 6'1", possibly almost 6'2". Wurz is 6'3" and he's not more than a few centimetres taller than Mark. Button's struggling to be 6 foot.

Kubica is as tall as Mark yet teams actually want to sign him?


Kube's a good inch, inch and a half, smaller than Mark.

Edited by JosTheBoss, 06 November 2010 - 01:08.


#24 WhiteBlue

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 01:10

Perhaps Vettel gets just as much of an advantage from the slight tailwind as Marko blows kisses to him along pit straight... :lol:

:rotfl:

Mansell was considerably taller and heavier than the other champs of his time. They do adjust the weight for it but you have got to live with a slight CoG handicap. No point in complaining about your genetic makeup. You know what you are when you decide to go motor racing.

Edited by WhiteBlue, 06 November 2010 - 01:16.


#25 Alfisti

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 01:13

Lewis is at a bigger disadvantage guys, he's got balls of steel.



Yeah but they sit low in the car.

#26 JosTheBoss

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 02:30

You know what you are when you decide to go motor racing.


Not really, given most of these F1 guys start in karts as 8 year olds.

#27 slideways

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 03:30

I believe somewhere between 0.0 and 0.1s depending on the track/car setup.

#28 JosTheBoss

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 04:26

^ ..... which is essentially the difference between them when it counted in Japan & Korea.

#29 Kelateboy

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 04:31

Alonso brings his 6 tenths.

:rotfl:


#30 Kelateboy

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 04:33

Lewis is at a bigger disadvantage guys, he's got balls of steel.

You have got to ask Nicole whether this is a fact or just an urban myth....

#31 JosTheBoss

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 04:36

I've always looked at Hamilton as probably being a bit of a eunuch. I think the dual earrings does it.

#32 Dunder

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 04:56

We can only guess.

It is really just a question of whether they can still get the optimal weight distribution for Webber's car or not and the answer to that might well be different from track to track.

If we take the worst case scenario for Mark and it meant having to redistrubute a full 10kg of ballast then I would have thought that a tenth per 80 second lap would be a reasonable guess if we look at how much of an impact 25-30kg KERS units had last year.

Edited by Dunder, 06 November 2010 - 04:57.


#33 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 06:41

You guys know the cars weigh the same right? So Webber has a little less ballast to work with, which is a balance tuning device, but the car/driver combos weigh the same.

I imagine Webber is better on the brakes than Vettel due to size/strength.

#34 jato

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 06:42

We can only guess.

It is really just a question of whether they can still get the optimal weight distribution for Webber's car or not and the answer to that might well be different from track to track.

If we take the worst case scenario for Mark and it meant having to redistrubute a full 10kg of ballast then I would have thought that a tenth per 80 second lap would be a reasonable guess if we look at how much of an impact 25-30kg KERS units had last year.


It's not just ballast that may or may not affect the outright speed. Reading Hughes article from BBC regarding both their driving styles when Webber adapted it earlier in the season to the full blown diffuser made him pretty much equal to Vettel in qualifying. What has changed since is the update to the software Renault is using allowing Vettel to gain that one extra tenth he has had over Webber in qualifying recently.

No wonder they call it the engineer calling the race shots or rather the software engineer.

There are just too many variables which determine which driver is faster than another including the ballast. As Bridgestone said, it took Alonso half a year to get on terms with the Bridgestones after changing from the Michelins including Kimi. Any driver with a car and tyres suited to their driving style will always IMO come out better. It is the drivers that adapt to both of these that are truly the great drivers while been extremely competitive and quick IMO. That's why I will never consider Schumacher - despite all this records - the greatest driver ever. This season goes to show when the car and the tyres do not suit the driver's style, then you're halfway stuffed already and stock plummets like anything. Only recently it seems MS is overcoming the characteristics of the tyres and cars, something he could overcome with Ferrari pounding away in testing back when testing wasn't restricted.

#35 slideways

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 07:03

You guys know the cars weigh the same right? So Webber has a little less ballast to work with, which is a balance tuning device, but the car/driver combos weigh the same.

I imagine Webber is better on the brakes than Vettel due to size/strength.


Yeah Webber and I think Kubica put the highest braking force into the cars.

#36 nomeg1

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 07:41

Size matters...?

When you are a dwarf and can't see your depart line :p If ya know what I mean ? It's only a joke, we are not in MotoGP, and I believe that today F1 science being what it is, it shows no significance...

#37 unoc

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 08:00

I believe Brundle said that it is something like 0.06-0.11 a lap in quali spec (i.e. no fuel weights or anything) depending on the track. hungary with its corners may be more, hence explaining some of the gap between the two.

Although it's a bit harsh on Webber, theres not much he can do about it. You look at thigns like Australia (just over a tenth), Korea and Japan (less than a tenth I think.. could be wrong), and it could easily have been Webber's if Vettel was webber and webber was vettel.

Nothing can be done though, and so any victory Webber gets is just that little bit sweeter. Even has a MW fan, and a tallish guy I don't really care too much as nothing can be done about it.

no suprise that out of the 4 still able to grab the championship
Hamilton makes pixies look tall, Alonso makes Hamilton look like a pixie and vettel isn't exactly goint to retire to NBA. Things are as things are.


*insert comment about how webber's only bigger than vettel so he can fit a conscience in*

Edited by unoc, 06 November 2010 - 08:00.


#38 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 08:11

I believe Brundle said that it is something like 0.06-0.11 a lap in quali spec (i.e. no fuel weights or anything) depending on the track. hungary with its corners may be more, hence explaining some of the gap between the two.


The cars weigh exactly the same.

#39 Peter Perfect

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 08:42

Alonso 171cm 68kg
Webber 185cm 76kg
Hamilton 175cm 66kg
Vettel 176cm 62kg
Button 182cm 72kg
Massa 166cm 59kg


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#40 primer

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 08:46

Webber is significantly taller than Vettel therefore is always going to weight more, this will mean he has less ballast he can move around the car to tune the weight distribution. Can anybody hazard a guess as to how much time he would typically lose each lap because of this?


About 3.50, give or take.

#41 JosTheBoss

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 10:02

The cars weigh exactly the same.


Yes I think we all understand that mate. :rolleyes:

We're talking about the additional ballast placement benefitting the smaller & lighter guys.

#42 JosTheBoss

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 10:10

Alonso 171cm 68kg
Webber 185cm 76kg
Hamilton 175cm 66kg
Vettel 176cm 62kg
Button 182cm 72kg
Massa 166cm 59kg


I've seen a few sources that list Hamilton as 5'7" (170cm), and espn lists Vettel at 5'8" (173cm).

I must admit I didnt think Hamilton & Vettel were as tall as PP listed.

#43 Gareth

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 10:18

We're talking about the additional ballast placement benefitting the smaller & lighter guys.

It only benefits them if you can't get to the right weight distribution without the additional balance. Once you hit the perfect weight distribution, any further ballast is just placed in that same distribution and gains you nothing.

Webber was competitive in F1 in 2008 when the car minimum weight was 605kg. Now it's 620kg, so up to 15kg extra to play with (although as the cars are now bigger to accomodate the bigger fuel tanks, I guess this may be less than 15kg but then I expect parts have got lighter since 2008 too). Given that, I'd be very surprised if Webber is regularly finding himself unable to get to the optimum weight distribution because of a lack of ballast.

So my guess is that is is a 0.000s difference at the vast majority (if not all) of race tracks this season.

#44 Peter Perfect

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 10:47

I've seen a few sources that list Hamilton as 5'7" (170cm), and espn lists Vettel at 5'8" (173cm).

I must admit I didnt think Hamilton & Vettel were as tall as PP listed.


Sorry, forgot to name my source... www.forix.com

#45 Ferrari2183

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 10:51

if Webber can achieve the perfect weight distribution with the available ballast, then none. As it's been already pointed out, next year the car's minimum weight will be increased to 640kg and the weight distributions will be fixed (which I don't know it's due to a precautionary measure because of the change to Pirellis or just another measure limiting engineer's work, and hence, differences between cars and possibilities to overtake :well: )

Weight distribution will be fixed for quali only.

#46 PayasYouRace

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 13:35

:rotfl:

Mansell was considerably taller and heavier than the other champs of his time. They do adjust the weight for it but you have got to live with a slight CoG handicap. No point in complaining about your genetic makeup. You know what you are when you decide to go motor racing.


In Mansell's time, the driver wasn't included in the minimum weight, so he was always running heavier than his team mates.

#47 JosTheBoss

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 14:25

It only benefits them if you can't get to the right weight distribution without the additional balance. Once you hit the perfect weight distribution, any further ballast is just placed in that same distribution and gains you nothing.

Webber was competitive in F1 in 2008 when the car minimum weight was 605kg. Now it's 620kg, so up to 15kg extra to play with (although as the cars are now bigger to accomodate the bigger fuel tanks, I guess this may be less than 15kg but then I expect parts have got lighter since 2008 too). Given that, I'd be very surprised if Webber is regularly finding himself unable to get to the optimum weight distribution because of a lack of ballast.

So my guess is that is is a 0.000s difference at the vast majority (if not all) of race tracks this season.


Ant Davidson and David Croft seem to disagree with you. Did you catch their comments in FP3 about weight distributions between the taller guys and shorter guys? They also mentioned guys like Kubica, Webber, Button will all be disadvantaged again next year.

#48 kandru

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 14:38

Weight distribution will be fixed for quali only.

Which is the purpose?

#49 newbie

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 14:46

the difference in weight is closer to ~20Kg

#50 King Six

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 14:50

Alonso 171cm 68kg
Webber 185cm 76kg
Hamilton 175cm 66kg
Vettel 176cm 62kg
Button 182cm 72kg
Massa 166cm 59kg

No way is Hamilton 5'10 and about 66Kg (that's what I am, and look no way near as tiny as Hamilton does), which questions the rest of these stats!

They are small guys though, mostly. Well not really, it's quite a good range in all truth.

Edited by King Six, 06 November 2010 - 14:50.