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Should Red Bull Implement Team Orders in the Brazilian Grand Prix?


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Poll: Should Red Bull Implement Team Orders in the Brazilian Grand Prix? (166 member(s) have cast votes)

If Vettel leads Webber in the Brazilian Grand Prix, should Red Bull order Vettel to cede the position to Webber to maximise their WDC chances?

  1. Yes (79 votes [47.59%])

    Percentage of vote: 47.59%

  2. No (43 votes [25.90%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.90%

  3. It's irrelevant, since Vettel will refuse to listen to any team instruction (44 votes [26.51%])

    Percentage of vote: 26.51%

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#1 harrys

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 17:22

Although both Red Bull men are still mathematically in the hunt for the championship, Webber's 14 point lead over Vettel, and Vettel's 25-point deficit to Alonso, makes Vettel very unlikely to win the Championship. Should Red Bull (discreetly) ask Vettel to move aside if they are in consecutive positions tomorrow?

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#2 Nuvol

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 17:23

Although both Red Bull men are still mathematically in the hunt for the championship, Webber's 14 point lead over Vettel, and Vettel's 25-point deficit to Alonso, makes Vettel very unlikely to win the Championship. Should Red Bull (discreetly) ask Vettel to move aside if they are in consecutive positions tomorrow?

If they wont then Alonso is champ.

#3 JosTheBoss

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 17:24

If Alonso's bottled up behind Hamilton all race, they absolutely must give Webber the extra 3 points.

edit: assuming Hulk wins, and Vet/Web are trailing in 2nd & 3rd.

Edited by JosTheBoss, 06 November 2010 - 17:25.


#4 harrys

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 17:37

Assume the running order is Vettel, Webber, Hamilton, Alonso (Hulkenberg is set up for damp conditions and will fall quickly back tomorrow)

Without team orders, the championship positions would be:

1. Alonso 243
2. Webber 238
3. Vettel 231

With team orders, positions would be:

1. Webber 245
2. Alonso 243
3. Vettel 224

Which is the better championship position for Red Bull?

#5 King Six

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 17:39

I don't think they will, a combination of them insisting on not using team orders and Vettel being their favoured driver won't cause such a situation.

Webber is going to have to go it alone and try and overtake Vettel and actually race him and win if possible, if he wants to have a good shot at this WDC. Oh, god forbid that Webber would have to do such a thing!

#6 JosTheBoss

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 17:39

Which is the better championship position for Red Bull?


The one where they leave Brazil leading both the WDC and WCC.... but they couldnt give a crap if it's not Vettel leading the WDC.



#7 Massa_f1

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 17:43

They should use team orders tomrrow if they dont want to hand ferrari the title on a plate its simple and must be done IMO.

#8 goldenboy

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 17:44

at least we get to see them race each other properly now. I spose thats as good an argument as your ever gonna get for banning team orders.

#9 Matt Somers

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 17:46

Well I'm really a fan of neither but at least Mark seems to have more craft than Seb when it comes to overtaking so perhaps he can do the job without his help....

#10 King Six

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 17:47

at least we get to see them race each other properly now. I spose thats as good an argument as your ever gonna get for banning team orders.

Yeah it's funny when Ferrari do it it's all anger and cries of ''cheat'' but when it needs to be done for Webber it's ''well they have to or Alonso gets the title''

Surely all the Webber fanboys should be able to beleive that Webber can take Vettel on the racetrack and maybe for once this season actually overtake someone, but I don't rate Webbers overtaking skills any more than I rate Vettels skills at anything other than driving the car fast (so that includes defensive driving), so it's a disaster all around.

#11 KateLM

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 17:50

I don't think they'll move Webber ahead of Vettel unless both are behind Alonso. Whether they should anyway or not is down to personal opinion.

#12 DILLIGAF

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 17:50

I don't think they will, a combination of them insisting on not using team orders and Vettel being their favoured driver won't cause such a situation.

Webber is going to have to go it alone and try and overtake Vettel and actually race him and win if possible, if he wants to have a good shot at this WDC. Oh, god forbid that Webber would have to do such a thing!


If it was Lewis & Jenson in the same situation with Alonso leading Hami by 11 & Jenson by 25 would you honestly say the same thing? Now be honest. ;)

Edit: I tend to agree with you by the way.

Edited by DILLIGAF, 06 November 2010 - 17:51.


#13 Menace

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 17:51

I don't think they will, a combination of them insisting on not using team orders and Vettel being their favoured driver won't cause such a situation.

Webber is going to have to go it alone and try and overtake Vettel and actually race him and win if possible, if he wants to have a good shot at this WDC. Oh, god forbid that Webber would have to do such a thing!


I'm so tired of that crap. The drivers will race, and that is the end of it. As long as Alonso is not in top 3 I have no doubt Red Bull will let the drivers sort it out.

#14 Menace

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 17:54

Yeah it's funny when Ferrari do it it's all anger and cries of ''cheat'' but when it needs to be done for Webber it's ''well they have to or Alonso gets the title''

Surely all the Webber fanboys should be able to beleive that Webber can take Vettel on the racetrack and maybe for once this season actually overtake someone, but I don't rate Webbers overtaking skills any more than I rate Vettels skills at anything other than driving the car fast (so that includes defensive driving), so it's a disaster all around.


Red Bull will stick to the high road, and no matter how much you guys twist it, Red Bull will never be considered favouring one driver over the other in the way Ferrari does with Alonso. Even if they orchestrate team orders, it is much more acceptable at this point of the championship, unlike the crap Ferrari pulled off. It will never be considered comparable, no matter what. :wave:

#15 JosTheBoss

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 17:54

Yeah it's funny when Ferrari do it it's all anger and cries of ''cheat'' but when it needs to be done for Webber it's ''well they have to or Alonso gets the title''


There's a distinct difference in doing it now versus doing it mid-season and basically saying to Massa at the same time 'you dont matter'. :rolleyes:

Surely all the Webber fanboys should be able to beleive that Webber can take Vettel on the racetrack and maybe for once this season actually overtake someone, but I don't rate Webbers overtaking skills any more than I rate Vettels skills at anything other than driving the car fast (so that includes defensive driving), so it's a disaster all around.


You just have missed all the clean overtakes Webber's done this year. He's had a few clangers too, but at least he's overtaken someone when it's counted.... unlike .... I dont know.... that Vettel dude.

#16 Seanspeed

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 18:48

If Alonso was on pole, then maybe. Or if Vettel hasn't been on such good form lately. But when he's 5th, and the Red Bull guys are 2nd and 3rd, then its a bit much. If Alonso DNF's and Vettel wins with Webber 2nd, then Webber assumes the lead of the championship and Vettel is tied with Alonso for 2nd with a shot at the title and his teammate would be leading the standings, which would probably be a pretty good situation for Red Bull to be in if they want one of their drivers to be WDC.



#17 Seanspeed

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 18:51

There's a distinct difference in doing it now versus doing it mid-season and basically saying to Massa at the same time 'you dont matter'. :rolleyes:

Not from a legal standpoint.

And you're right - the two situations are very different. At Ferrari, Massa was never a title contender while in Red Bull, BOTH drivers are contesting it. Everybody knows it was the right decision to support Alonso back then, so I've no idea why people still act like what they did was so unfair.

#18 robefc

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 18:52

If Alonso was on pole, then maybe. Or if Vettel hasn't been on such good form lately. But when he's 5th, and the Red Bull guys are 2nd and 3rd, then its a bit much. If Alonso DNF's and Vettel wins with Webber 2nd, then Webber assumes the lead of the championship and Vettel is tied with Alonso for 2nd with a shot at the title and his teammate would be leading the standings, which would probably be a pretty good situation for Red Bull to be in if they want one of their drivers to be WDC.


I'd actually say Red Bull as a team have a great opportunity to maximise the points gain over alonso...if they get ahead of the hulk and alonso is back in 4th or 5th then swapping webber to the lead is a 14 point swing...

It's a no brainer from a team perspective but would be totally unfair on vettel and I'm not advocating they do it.



#19 Stuko

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 18:54

Just ask Webber.....

Q. Do you think Vettel should be told to support you?

MW: If it hasn't happened by now, it's never going to happen.



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#20 goat0063

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 19:02

I would say that they should be prepared to make a call during the race, however I think they are right to let them both race at the moment. For example, if the race position is Vet - Web - Alo then they are going to shoot themselves in the foot if the don't swap Vet and Web. However if Alonso were to blow his engine or suffer some other misforture in the early part of the race then the right call is to let them get on with it. IMHO.

I suspect that Vet has agreed to "take one for the team" if it is necessary, although I doubt Webber is not aware of this. Vettel has a great relationship with his team and I would be absolutely amazed if he were to prefer Alonso to take the title as opposed to Webber. I also suspect he would get clear number 1 status in the team next year, even if Mark were to be there as champion.

Sorry edited.

Edited by goat0063, 06 November 2010 - 21:18.


#21 King Six

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 19:03

If it was Lewis & Jenson in the same situation with Alonso leading Hami by 11 & Jenson by 25 would you honestly say the same thing? Now be honest.;)

Edit: I tend to agree with you by the way.

I would rather see Hamilton take on Button than have the team do it for him. Even for someone like Alonso, doesn't it hurt his pride that he needed the team to tell Massa to move over because he couldn't overtake him on track. Now, It gets abit complicated because teams don't like their drivers racing each other so Alonso is limited in options himself

#22 Seanspeed

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 19:06

I'd actually say Red Bull as a team have a great opportunity to maximise the points gain over alonso...if they get ahead of the hulk and alonso is back in 4th or 5th then swapping webber to the lead is a 14 point swing...

It's a no brainer from a team perspective but would be totally unfair on vettel and I'm not advocating they do it.

Yea, it wouldn't hurt, but it WOULD be unfair on Vettel when he's still got a realistic shot at this. Especially since they can still put both drivers in with a very good shot of the title without the team orders.

#23 nomeg1

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 19:10

They won't have to, Vettel will out Webber...Too much tension between them 2, ha ! Posted Image



#24 Seanspeed

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 19:10

I would rather see Hamilton take on Button than have the team do it for him. Even for someone like Alonso, doesn't it hurt his pride that he needed the team to tell Massa to move over because he couldn't overtake him on track. Now, It gets abit complicated because teams don't like their drivers racing each other so Alonso is limited in options himself

No, it doesn't hurt Alonso's pride because there's a good chance he COULD have overtaken Massa. It just wasn't worth the risk at the time.

#25 F1Colin2k10

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 19:35

Assume the running order is Vettel, Webber, Hamilton, Alonso (Hulkenberg is set up for damp conditions and will fall quickly back tomorrow)

Without team orders, the championship positions would be:

1. Alonso 243
2. Webber 238
3. Vettel 231

With team orders, positions would be:

1. Webber 245
2. Alonso 243
3. Vettel 224

Which is the better championship position for Red Bull?


That may be the case, but we all know modern motorsport also relies on commercial endeveours, so Webber (as of Brazilian GP Quali) Vettel is ahead of Webber on the grid, has the momentum, and DIDNT publically insult the team, remind of any scenario in recent years *cough* McLaren 2007


#26 Ferrari2183

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 20:19

Yes, but only if Alonso is still in the race. If Alonso has a DNF then no.

#27 William Hunt

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 20:29

They should because F1 is still a teamsport. I strongly oppose to applying team orders early or in the middle part of the season (that's cheating on the fans who pay a lof of money for a ticket) but in the final races you have to do this because the title is at stake. In the long term people only remember who won the title and think about the financial difference and the marketing aspect between becoming world champion and missing out on that title.

Edited by William Hunt, 06 November 2010 - 20:31.


#28 Arska

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 20:58

No, it doesn't hurt Alonso's pride because there's a good chance he COULD have overtaken Massa. It just wasn't worth the risk at the time.


Alonso was trying for all he was worth. He couldn't make it happen. That's how it was, and then the team intervened.

#29 Rafael

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 21:03

RBR should do it, Ferrari/Alonso are not winning it, RBR is losing it

#30 alfa1

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 21:12

Should Red Bull (discreetly) ask Vettel to move aside if they are in consecutive positions tomorrow?



...when asked whether he would aid Webber's quest for the championship.
"If he wants assistance, he should try the medical car," Vettel said.

http://www.theaustra...t-1225948872874


#31 Dunder

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 21:13

Yes, they should
Even with an Alonso DNF they want Webber to a minimum of 8 points ahead going to Abu Dhabi, which would mean 2nd would be enough for the WDC.

Based on the comments from the team, I don't think they will however.

#32 Arska

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 22:06

...when asked whether he would aid Webber's quest for the championship.
"If he wants assistance, he should try the medical car," Vettel said.


I saw that earlier, but that's some team harmony they have at RBR. :lol: :D :lol:

#33 scheivlak

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 22:16

Yes, they should
Even with an Alonso DNF they want Webber to a minimum of 8 points ahead going to Abu Dhabi, which would mean 2nd would be enough for the WDC.

An Alonso DNF and a Vettel win means that Seb will have the same number of points as Alonso.
It would be ridiculous if a pit order would block Vettel from seizing that opportunity.

I would not support it, but I would understand team orders with Fernando right behind the Red Bull duo. In case of an Alonso DNF there's no reason to order Seb to back off.

#34 BuzzingHornet

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 22:20

I think there is going to be some Red Bull hilarity tomorrow.. i've just got this feeling that there will be tears before bedtime..! There won't be any team orders as Webber is ahead not Vettel.

#35 DiStefano

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 22:25

Of course not.

It would make Mateshitz, an honest man who isn't into "manipulating results", look like a complete hypocrite.

#36 Garagiste

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 22:27

They should because F1 is still a teamsport. I strongly oppose to applying team orders early or in the middle part of the season (that's cheating on the fans who pay a lof of money for a ticket) but in the final races you have to do this because the title is at stake. In the long term people only remember who won the title and think about the financial difference and the marketing aspect between becoming world champion and missing out on that title.


Broadly agree, though I think teams should be free to apply team orders whenever they choose. We just don't have to like it and can make up our minds who we support on that basis. :)

#37 William Hunt

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 22:35

Broadly agree, though I think teams should be free to apply team orders whenever they choose. We just don't have to like it and can make up our minds who we support on that basis. :)


I understand your point but remember that race in Austria were Barichello had to hand the win to Schumacher in the final lap? Or Germany this year and many other examples. That showed a massive disrespect for the fans and the people who pay for an expensive ticket from Ferrari, that was so damaging for the image of the sport, and exactly because I think that F1 should respect it's fans I'm oposed to team orders except for the final races where a team has to act like a team in a teamsport imho.

In IndyCar at least they still have respect for their fans and the drivers even have contact with the fans with their open paddock systems. In F1 it's all about people with money, they care more about VIP's then about the fans paying overprized tickets. In F1 they forget that without the fans F1 would cease to exist.

#38 krapmeister

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 22:40

Of course not.

It would make Mateshitz, an honest man who isn't into "manipulating results", look like a complete hypocrite.


Ahem... Turkey?

#39 Johnrambo

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 22:45

I root for Vettel but they must impose team orders on behalf of Webber to stop FA.

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#40 Garagiste

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 22:52

I think there is hardly a poster here that doesn't remember the "A1 Wring".
The outrage that it caused was understandable because it was absolutely unnecessary, but if that is the way a team want to play it then IMO, let them get on with it - it is a team sport. Certainly it didn't do them much harm in the long term, I'm sure that 95% of those that burned their Scuddecto flags had to go out and buy another for the next season. :lol:

#41 WIC

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 23:09

Redbull team orders will not be necessary, Vettel and Webber WILL end each others race.... yup you heard it here first (probably not first but eh). After that happens the race will be an absolute borefest :yawnface:

Hulkenberg will let Hamilton through without too much of a fight, and Alonso's engine will give up on lap 47.

Edited by WIC, 06 November 2010 - 23:09.


#42 Birelman

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 23:29

I would think they will monitor Alonso's position in the race in the last few laps and make a decision at that point. If, for example, Vettel is 1st, and Webber 2nd, and Alonso 3rd, then I would think they should swap places, cus, Vettel would hardly have better crack at the title in Abu Dhabi with a 15 point deficit and Webber 8, it's not as ideal as Webber 1 point behind and Vettel an outside shot 22 points adrift.

If Alonso is 4th or worst I think they will stick to their policy and let them race. That would give both their drivers a genuine shot in Abu Dhabi, and Webber a very strong chance. I think (other than winning) 4th is Alonso's best option too, as 3rd would put too much pressure on RBR to swap and he would end up having Webber trailing him by just a point coming into Abu Dhabi, which is dangerous for him, and 4th would put RBR in a very tough spot to decide, if they swap with Alonso 4th, they give Webber the WDC lead, but they all but send Vettel to start talks with other teams, it's a very tough spot, if you ask me.

It'll be interesting, but I think it all depends where Alonso is at D time, if Alonso is not running at the time, it all becomes academic.

#43 slideways

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 00:10

No, I don't think they should. Webber had plenty of chances to break away from Vettel and missed the boat and both drivers are still in contention. Let them race.

#44 Eff One 2002

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 01:02

There's no way Vettel will help out, and Webbo is good enough to take this title on his own without assistance. If he can pull it off, it will be an even more valuable WDC.

#45 Spa One

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 01:53


One thing's for sure, you've gotta love inner team rivalries - especially when the two drivers are so evenly matched.



#46 Mackarel

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 01:56

Team orders are a no brainer.
If Alonso's off the podium, let vettel win with webber second; let em race.

In abu dahbi, Vettel should step aside and let webber through. He'll deal with it better that way.

If Alonso is strong in brazil and Webber needs to win, the wheel gun man can fumble with Vettel's wheel in the stop and bring out behind webber.
Nice covert way to do it.

#47 goldenboy

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 02:20

it is funny to think of what DM & RB would be saying if it was vettel leading. "they drive for the team blah blah blah"

I think it's ok for them to race this wkend, but next wkend if they dont if vettel is out of it it will be an absolute travesty

Edited by goldenboy, 07 November 2010 - 02:22.


#48 e63

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 02:23

I get the feeling that if Red Bull can't win the WDC with Vettel, they'd rather not win it at all.

Not unprecedented, as well all know...

Webber will have to go against team "rules" and try to pass Vettel if he is behind him after Turn 1.

Edited by e63, 07 November 2010 - 02:28.


#49 Kelateboy

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 02:29

I get the feeling that if Red Bull can't win the WDC with Vettel, they'd rather not win it at all.

Not unprecedented, as well all know...


Very much like 2007 case, but that year, a rookie blew 17pts lead with 2 races to go.... :rotfl:

#50 PassWind

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 02:48

As a Webber supporter I would definitely not impose team orders in this race as it stands. There are too many variables that can occur. Vettel earned his grid position and deserves to exploit it, he has the most to lose conceding a position to help a team mate while he is still in contention. RBR's goal first and foremost should be the WCC then look to which driver they can get up for the WDC. At the moment the most likely candidate is Webber however he hasn't shown me enough in the last 6 rounds to warrant automatic support, so given Alonso's grid position there is still room for Vettel to get close enough.

Of course this situation could change all after the first corner.