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Red Bull Team Orders - The Deal that Should be Made Between Webber and Vettel


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#1 FredAlonso

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 05:57

Here is my humble idea that might work for Red Bull that has merit for both drivers in that it keeps BOTH alive for Abu Dhabi – subject to a deal being made.

(this ignores the whole team orders are illegal arguments of course – this thread is about what Horner could do so the WDC does not blow up in their face. My theory however requires goodwill and trust between the drivers – not sure we have that!).

At the moment it is:

Alo –> 11pts Web –> 14pts Vet.

Vettel realistically is an excellent chance of winning Brazil and Abu Dhabi, but even that wont be enough if Alonso keeps picking up 3rd and a 4th. Problem is Vet winning screws Webbers chances etc as we all know. Vettel is hoping basically for a DNF from Alonso somewhere.

Turning to Brazil:

With all respect to Hulk’s efforts, lets assume late in the race its:

1. Vet
2. Web
3. Ham or Hulk
4. Alonso (or he is 3rd - doesn't matter)

It is so late in the race that Web would have to agree that Vet handing it over at that point is a total gift. Vet agrees to swap and let Web take the win. Webber takes 25 points, Vettel 18, Alonso 12. Web leads Alo by 2 going into the finale and Web leads Vet by 21 pts. Vet trails Alo by 19.

Abu Dhabi. Assume Red Bull dominance. Vet shades Web again and is leading the race. 2nd last lap we have:

1. Vet
2. Web
3. Alo

No need to change anything as Webber wins the WDC. Vettel wins the race and his handover to Web in Brazil did not hurt his WDC chance because Alo never DNF’ed in either race. Alternately, if it is Web leading on merit, then again it does not matter and Web wins title.

OK now, what if ALO does in fact DNF in Abu Dhabi?? Well the pre Brazil agreement means that Webber accepts the Brazil gift from Vet on the following basis:

1. Vettel had Brazil in the bag and handed it over.
2. Vettel has Abu Dhabi in the bag and its late in the race.
3. Had Vet NOT handed Brazil over, it would have been 2x RBR 1-2s and Vet would have ended up equal with Webber on points but have more race wins, to be WDC.

Therefore, based on the deal Web, running in second, agrees to park it (mysterious engine failure) and Vettel takes the crown – WHICH he would have done if he had been allowed to win Brazil and Abu Dhabi (because Alonso DNF’ed in Abu Dhabi)

Sorry about the long winded explanation, but using logic (not human emotion of the Webber/Vettel relationship, this strategy should work).

Thoughts?


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#2 RME

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 06:08

I rather see Webber win it on his own. Fark team orders.

But RB is not stupid, it will happen depending on the race goes tonight.

#3 Galka

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 06:16

Too many "ifs".
All your long-winded discussion is based on one supposition: Vettel might get a WDC if a) Alonso DNF in one of the races b) Vettel takes both victories (and there are a lot of people that might interfere with that).
Guys, we have to face the fact that Vettel's chances of championship are slim.

He's in a worse position than Kimi was in 2007. He is 4th(!) in the championship, his teammate is ahead in the championship, and Vettel cannot capitalize on rivalry inside other teams because Mclaren and Ferrari already have their #1.
I'm tired of people here offering winning strategies for a driver who blew up his chances himself and let his teammate take upper hand.

Edited by Galka, 07 November 2010 - 06:22.


#4 FredAlonso

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 06:29

Too many "ifs".
All your long-winded discussion is based on one supposition: Vettel might get a WDC if a) Alonso DNF in one of the races b) Vettel takes both victories (and there are a lot of people that might interfere with that).
Guys, we have to face the fact that Vettel's chances of championship are slim.

He's in a worse position than Kimi was in 2007. He is 4th(!) in the championship, his teammate is ahead in the championship, and Vettel cannot capitalize on rivalry inside other teams because Mclaren and Ferrari already have their #1.
I'm tired of people here offering winning strategies for a driver who blew up his chances himself and let his teammate take upper hand.


Yep it was long winded! i agree. :)

Simple point i am making i suppose is that if Mark wants Vettel to gift him the Brazil win, there should be a condition attached to it - a condition that may never be called on. I am not a Vettel fan, but i am looking at this from Red Bull's point of view on the assumption that they want to somehow keep Vettel alive without totally blowing the WDC with the other car.


#5 Galka

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 06:49

Yep it was long winded! i agree. :)

Simple point i am making i suppose is that if Mark wants Vettel to gift him the Brazil win, there should be a condition attached to it - a condition that may never be called on. I am not a Vettel fan, but i am looking at this from Red Bull's point of view on the assumption that they want to somehow keep Vettel alive without totally blowing the WDC with the other car.

Why should there be any conditions? It's simple: there are two races left, and the team supports the driver who has better chances.
It's Vettel's fault that he's behind Webber in points.

And you know, Webber might not even need to be gifted a win in Brazil. Vettel is the one who tends to lose his start position.
So today Webber might get in front of Vettel on his own, without any "gifts".

#6 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 06:56

No. Because Vettel giving up the win in Brazil is for the greater glory of Red Bull Racing. Webber parking it in Abu Dhabi is purely to felate Vettel.

#7 zarooch

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 08:04

No deal. Let me put it straight.

If Webber was to win (had a chance like Alonso) championship in Brazil then I'd would say that okay maybe depending on the race conditions red bull should wrap it up.

But there's still a race to go and no one knows what will happen. Heck no one knows what will happen in this race. You just have to remember what happened in Korea... So anything can happen to anyone

Vettel should go on and do his own race, win it for his championship and let webber do his best. Besides I don't think webber would help if the positions were swaped (vettel ahead of webber in championship)

Then in abu dhabi we'll do the maths

Edited by zarooch, 07 November 2010 - 08:12.


#8 WhiteBlue

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 08:21

It's Vettel's fault that he's behind Webber in points.

:rotfl: Not at all. Are you living in cloud cuckoo land? You have obviously never bothered to look at a comparison of points lost due to errors and reliability between Webber and Vettel. So the assumption is you are either trolling or don't know what you are talking about. Do us a favor and read the Webber/Vettel score card thread. It might help you to some insights.

Edited by WhiteBlue, 07 November 2010 - 08:22.


#9 WhiteBlue

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 08:29

No. Because Vettel giving up the win in Brazil is for the greater glory of Red Bull Racing. Webber parking it in Abu Dhabi is purely to felate Vettel.

It is good that Red Bull's glory does not depend of Ross Stonefeld. Mateschitz is doing the right thing. If one of his drivers wins it in a fair contest the glory will be real and not have the stink of a tainted championship.

The proposed deal is something they could theoretically do but I think the relationship between the drivers has been too much poisoned by head games that anybody would have the trust to do such a thing.

Edited by WhiteBlue, 07 November 2010 - 08:32.


#10 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 08:32

Both drivers should be used, and prepared to be used, to get the maximum team result. Whether that is Webber or Vettel. At the moment it's Vettel. Their rival isn't each other but Alonso. Though I like Mateschitz's claim to let the result occur naturally, that wasn't the question of the thread. So to make it unquestionably clear. Webber is ahead, Webber gets the support.

#11 sanjiro

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 08:38

:rotfl: Not at all. Are you living in cloud cuckoo land? You have obviously never bothered to look at a comparison of points lost due to errors and reliability and team orders and team Q bias and bias team strategy and hardware inequalitybetween Webber and Vettel. So the assumption is you are either trolling or don't know what you are talking about. Do us a favor and read the Webber/Vettel score card thread. It might help you to some insights.



Fixed it for you as you are so insistent on accuracy

Edited by sanjiro, 07 November 2010 - 08:39.


#12 Galka

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 09:03

:rotfl: Not at all. Are you living in cloud cuckoo land? You have obviously never bothered to look at a comparison of points lost due to errors and reliability between Webber and Vettel. So the assumption is you are either trolling or don't know what you are talking about. Do us a favor and read the Webber/Vettel score card thread. It might help you to some insights.

And what does Vettel's reliability have to do with him supporting or not supporting Webber?

I don't want to read some stupid thread because I have the list of reliability issues of Vettel. The only real reliability issue was in Korea, where his engine blew up.
He had some issues in Bahrain, Spain and Canada, but he finished these races in points (in fact, Spain was the podium).
All other misfortunes were caused by collisions.

And - why doesn't Webber suffer from such reliability issues? Is it some kind of team conspiracy?

Edited by Galka, 07 November 2010 - 09:16.


#13 WhiteBlue

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 09:59

I don't want to read some stupid thread because I have the list of reliability issues of Vettel. The only real reliability issue was in Korea, where his engine blew up. He had some issues in Bahrain, Spain and Canada, but he finished these races in points (in fact, Spain was the podium). All other misfortunes were caused by collisions.


You are as wrong on the facts as your opinion is ill informed! But I'm not going to educate you if you can't be bothered to read the threads that deal with these issues. I will simply say you are obviously trolling without sufficient knowledge of the 2010 Red Bull error and reliability situation. Do a little research instead of posting your errors.


#14 Hippo

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 10:08

Turkey, Silverstone, Spa, Hungary. All his mistakes. Without them he would be leading the WDC and Mark. He has no right to blame his reliability. Neither do his fans.

#15 Gareth

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 10:10

Thoughts?

Seems clever to me. RB maximises its WDC chances, Webber maximises his WDC chances, Vettel does not harm his WDC chances. Everyone involved in it is a winner with this kind of deal, aren't they?

#16 Gareth

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 10:12

Turkey, Silverstone, Spa, Hungary. All his mistakes. Without them he would be leading the WDC and Mark. He has no right to blame his reliability. Neither do his fans.

Without his mistakes he would be leading the WDC. Without his reliability issues he would be leading the WDC. In a WDC this tight, that's pretty much the case for any of drivers 2 - 4 in the WDC.

#17 Hippo

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 10:19

Without his mistakes he would be leading the WDC. Without his reliability issues he would be leading the WDC. In a WDC this tight, that's pretty much the case for any of drivers 2 - 4 in the WDC.

Sure, not stating anything else. Just saying it's hypocrisy to blame it on reliability when your boy wasted so many points all by himself.

#18 WhiteBlue

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 10:25

I think it is fair to say that Webber and Vettel are pretty similar in terms of driver errors. It is reliability where they are totally unmatched. Webber had a few minor items which Vettel had as well. But Vettel on top of the minor items lost three almost certain race wins while leading the race due to reliability. Webber never had a mechanical failure while leading the race. So Galka saying that "It's Vettel's fault that he's behind Webber in points" is not making a fair assessment of the facts IMO.

On top his data on reliability are inaccurate as I have already pointed out.

Edited by WhiteBlue, 07 November 2010 - 10:31.


#19 unoc

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Posted 07 November 2010 - 11:52

You are as wrong on the facts as your opinion is ill informed! But I'm not going to educate you if you can't be bothered to read the threads that deal with these issues. I will simply say you are obviously trolling without sufficient knowledge of the 2010 Red Bull error and reliability situation. Do a little research instead of posting your errors.



I love how you can counter an argument by calling him ignorant and then failing to even attempt a rebutal, let alone a counter argument!




It's true Vettel has had slightly less lcuk than Webber, but vettel has also made far more mistakes. You list Webbers big mistakes and i'll list vettel's big mistakes...
Hey, i'll be a nice guy and do both.

Webber's I'd say
Bahrain - made a mistake in his quali lap.. small mistake, but one nontheless
Australia - his hamilton... in distorted air, small mistake, but one nontheless
Malaysia - none
China - none
Spain - none
Monaco - none
Turkey - none
Canada - none
Europe - Trying to maximise slipstream form Lotus (which he iddn't need to do to pass anyway), didn't realise how the braking zone required for the lotus,
Britain - none
Germany - Qualifing behind the ferraris, small mistake, but one nontheless
Hungary - Alonso got passed him, was going to cost him a position
Belgium - none.. start wasn't his fault
Italy - Was beaten in Quali by Button and both ferraris
Singapore - Quali behind Alonso/maybe a bad chassis?
Japan - none
Korea - lost rear end, caught but added too much thorttle and hit the wall

Vettel's are
Bahrain - none
Australia - none/quite possibly caused extra wear leading to the failuer
Malaysia
China - knocked cars around which effected others including teammate, small mistake, but one nontheless
Spain - Jumping kerbs causing extra wear and tear on the car
Monaco - mucked up quali and so was behind kubica aswell as Webber... can't remember if he said it was a mistake or the best he could do
Turkey - Drove into the side of his teammate
Canada - none mistake but sounded like jackass on the radio asking if he had to overtake the 4/5 (can't remember) in front to win and asking for a fastest lap even horner didn't want him to do
Britain - Tried to cut off teammate and hence lost position, later after puncture struggled in getting past slower cars to move up the field, ended up banging against a force india while trying to get past
Germany - Tried to cut off 2nd again, let both ferrari's through
Hungary - forgot saftey car 101, dropped him from first to third thanks to using up too fuel before and hence not being able to match pace with Webber who was on older tyres
Spa - Qualified behind his teammate, mclaren's hamilton and renault's kubica. Went on to rush an overtake and muck it up crashing into and taking out Button. Later knocked the front wing off a Force India trying to overtake again
Italy - Was beaten in Quali by both ferrari's, both mclarens and Webber
Singapore - none
Japan - none
Korea - none


Now, while Vettel's fans may shoutout about vettels bit of badluck here and there. Webber's fans can shoutout about Webber being heavier and bigger with several quali's (lately japan and korea) being decided by this, webber going out for his final run earlier than vettel, webbers dubois stratergies at time (e.g. germany and australia), teams favouritism (marko telling the media that he would happily try to chuck a contracted webber out of a drive for rallybound raikkonen, support for vettel after turkey, blame after turkey on him, his new wing being put onto vettels cars without telling webber, not being as excited about webber's triumphs [first win] than vettel, deitrich's close friend berger on a redbull owned channel questioning Mark Webber's integrity as a driver and human, and car development, might be some I forogt) amongst other things. Webber also took chances on stratergies e.g. hungary and singapore and malaysian quali




No matter what though, the points are the points and you have to deal with what has happened. If Button had lost all of his point through reliability and Hamilton was were Webber is, do you think people would be saying 'Button shouldn't be supporting, despite teh fact that if alonso gets 8 points over the next two races, then buttonis out no matter what button does, simply because Button didn't make any mistakes', neit... You deal with what has been given.