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Alguersuari + Buemi: "pass us and we crash into you"


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#1 steveninthematrix

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 06:42

each time, someone comes to pass a STR, they drift wide and crash into them...... anyone else noticed this? this has happened in the last few races and its getting a bit ridiculous; these young guys obviously dont like getting passed, but they constantly drift wide or sometimes just turn into the other car (suzuka and kobayashi)


personally, STR should fire both of them as being pretty useless

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#2 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 06:49

Being useless? Or establishing a precedent so that when a Toro Rosso and a certain Ferrari driver tangle in Abu Dhabi, it's completely in character?

Of course, Red Bull and Toro Rosso are pretty much separated these days. I don't think anyone would have dared to crash into another driver deliberately even before Piquet's little stunt in Singapore.

#3 Redstorm

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 06:49

I could throw a big spoon in the pot and ask you how this is any different from Webbo and Vettel......


Buemi has taken a step back this year and Jaime has kind of leveled out as well. I think it's just down to them (TR) being the bastard child.


#4 TURU

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 06:49

each time, someone comes to pass a STR, they drift wide and crash into them...... anyone else noticed this? this has happened in the last few races and its getting a bit ridiculous; these young guys obviously dont like getting passed, but they constantly drift wide or sometimes just turn into the other car (suzuka and kobayashi)


personally, STR should fire both of them as being pretty useless


They should fire at least one of them (preferably Buemi) and hire Ricciardo. But I wouldn't mind if they fired both.  ;)

#5 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 06:52

They should fire at least one of them (preferably Buemi) and hire Ricciardo.

Why Ricciardo? He was beaten by Mikhail Aleshin, a guy that Red Bull cut loose from the driver program. If he can't even beat Red Bull's rejects, why would he do well in Formula 1?

#6 Chubby_Deuce

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 06:59

Why Ricciardo? He was beaten by Mikhail Aleshin, a guy that Red Bull cut loose from the driver program. If he can't even beat Red Bull's rejects, why would he do well in Formula 1?


You seem to have a chronic problem with objectivity and reality. The fact that Aleshin is 2 years older and only beat Ricciardo by 2 points didn't weigh on your mind before firing this post off?

#7 TURU

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 07:00

Why Ricciardo? He was beaten by Mikhail Aleshin, a guy that Red Bull cut loose from the driver program. If he can't even beat Red Bull's rejects, why would he do well in Formula 1?


Maybe because it was Aleshin's fourth year in FR3.5 while Ricciardo's first.  ;)

#8 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 07:07

Maybe because it was Aleshin's fourth year in FR3.5 while Ricciardo's first. ;)

Uh-huh. Well, until he can beat Aleshin on a regular basis, I don't think he has what it takes for Formula 1.

#9 goldenboy

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 07:09

Uh-huh. Well, until he can beat Aleshin on a regular basis, I don't think he has what it takes for Formula 1.

he will...

it's time to make way for a lot of these guys coming up (barrichello, trulli, SENNA and so on and so on)

Edited by goldenboy, 08 November 2010 - 07:11.


#10 simplyfast

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 07:12

he will...

the key point and one i think some have not considered is you use future tense and untill its present tense he is where he should be.

#11 TURU

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 07:12

Uh-huh. Well, until he can beat Aleshin on a regular basis, I don't think he has what it takes for Formula 1.


Maybe. However You are not the one who has an authority to say whether he has what it takes or not. I think he could do a better job than Buemi if given enough time. But we won't know until he gets a seat.

#12 Captain Tightpants

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 07:19

And how much time should Red Bull give him to come up to speed?

#13 marcoferrari

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 07:24

They should fire at least one of them (preferably Buemi) and hire Ricciardo. But I wouldn't mind if they fired both.;)


Both? Any reason? I guess you probably don t watch Alguersuari s performances as since Spa he is constantly there in fights for 10th place... Only exception was Monza... He is much better than last year and even much better than in the first half of this year... Young guys don t like to be passed and it also a case of Hulkenberg and Kobayashi...

#14 marcoferrari

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 07:26

Maybe because it was Aleshin's fourth year in FR3.5 while Ricciardo's first.;)


And? Kobayashi was nowhere in some junior series and he has established himself very well in F1... On other hand Hulkenberg was a star in many categories, but in F1 I don t think he turned the world around...

Edited by marcoferrari, 08 November 2010 - 07:27.


#15 TURU

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 07:30

A season ? But apart from this all, when they hired Alguersuari he didn't exactly have a great record in lower series and yet he appears to be doing better job than Buemi.

#16 TURU

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 07:32

Both? Any reason? I guess you probably don t watch Alguersuari s performances as since Spa he is constantly there in fights for 10th place... Only exception was Monza... He is much better than last year and even much better than in the first half of this year... Young guys don t like to be passed and it also a case of Hulkenberg and Kobayashi...


Please, don't even start your Algersuari rain dance again. We all know you have much faith in him. I don't think many people share your opinion though.

#17 marcoferrari

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 07:41

Please, don't even start your Algersuari rain dance again. We all know you have much faith in him. I don't think many people share your opinion though.


Yes, I have... And everything is running according to plan... He had to improve his pace on supersoft tyre - done... He had to qualify better and start to beat his teammate - done... I don t need to do any rain dances, the future will show...  ;) And if other people don t believe - it is their problem not mine... :wave:

#18 MSf

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 08:00

Buemi has really been disappointing this year, he looked quite good last year against Bourdais but he has been behind Alguersuari for most of the season now, even though Jaime has never looked really impressive. And that was quite unexpected. I don't know what to say about Alguersuari really, but since he has shown progress from last year he certainly deserves another chance for next year, hopefully against Ricciardo.

#19 JosTheBoss

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 08:13

You seem to have a chronic problem with objectivity and reality.


I think it's more a case of needing to have an opinion (and a post!) on each and every issue.

Uh-huh. Well, until he can beat Aleshin on a regular basis, I don't think he has what it takes for Formula 1.


Kamui Kobayashi.

Edited by JosTheBoss, 08 November 2010 - 08:16.


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#20 johnap

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 08:51

STR are probably the worst managed team in F1, and for a junior team they have only produced one good driver - Vettel.

#21 krapmeister

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 08:54

STR are probably the worst managed team in F1, and for a junior team they have only produced one good driver - Vettel.


And they didn't even produce him, he just drove for them for a bit...

#22 ashnathan

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 09:26

Buemi is terrible. I was impressed last year early on and in testing when he was spanking bourdais but hes almost had 2 years of experience and just isnt producing the goods. And I dont think Red Bull would risk Ricciardo in a Toro Rosso thery'd rather him jump straight into a Red Bull, McLaren should poach him :)

#23 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 09:34

buemi wasn't spanking anybody, bourdais was marginally faster than him
str just didn't want bourdais and preferred two young drivers

in the last races though the STRs have been awful in terms of racecraft. they just bump into people

#24 KateLM

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 10:03

I have to admit, I've noticed a lot of bumper car action from both of them in the last two races. Neither were being particularly good at getting out of the way for the leaders yesterday either. And that didn't even appear to be a Red Bull thing, because Buemi held Webber up for nearly half a lap.

Even though Buemi has more points, I do feel that Alguersuari has more potential. He is often threatening the points, while Buemi seems to have had 2 good races and then slipped back down the order.
And each to their own, but I think its silly to claim that Ricciardo shouldn't be in F1 because Aleshin beat him. It was 2 points difference, and Aleshin has 3 years more experience of the cars and most of the tracks. And they weren't even team mates. Besides, the potential he supposedly showed in the Young Driver's Test last year should be enough to give him a shot on its own really.

#25 marcoferrari

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 10:39

I have to admit, I've noticed a lot of bumper car action from both of them in the last two races. Neither were being particularly good at getting out of the way for the leaders yesterday either. And that didn't even appear to be a Red Bull thing, because Buemi held Webber up for nearly half a lap.

Even though Buemi has more points, I do feel that Alguersuari has more potential. He is often threatening the points, while Buemi seems to have had 2 good races and then slipped back down the order.
And each to their own, but I think its silly to claim that Ricciardo shouldn't be in F1 because Aleshin beat him. It was 2 points difference, and Aleshin has 3 years more experience of the cars and most of the tracks. And they weren't even team mates. Besides, the potential he supposedly showed in the Young Driver's Test last year should be enough to give him a shot on its own really.


Exactly... And still not to forget, Alguersuari could not start from his 11th place in Singapore (points were real as he was over a second faster in Quali as 8th finisher Adrian Sutil) and his team had a pneumatic gun problem during pitstop in Korea... Jaime was entering the pits on 8th place ahead of Liuzzi, who later finished 6th... Both these troubles were not mistakes of Alguersuari as he couldn t do nothing against them...

#26 kandru

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 10:55

What about Jaime Alguersuari holding Alonso the whole S2 and S3 instead of yielding (he was a lapped driver) after the Safety Car period. That cost Alonso dearly, seeing how close he finished from Webber.

P.S. I'm not saying the outcome would have been different had Jaime let Alonso pass easier, and I'm aware of how terrible the backwarkers were yesterday at Interlagos

#27 marcoferrari

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 11:02

What about Jaime Alguersuari holding Alonso the whole S2 and S3 instead of yielding (he was a lapped driver) after the Safety Car period. That cost Alonso dearly, seeing how close he finished from Webber.

P.S. I'm not saying the outcome would have been different had Jaime let Alonso pass easier, and I'm aware of how terrible the backwarkers were yesterday at Interlagos


ALL those "backmarkers" were fighting for their positions... Just imagine, if the blue flag rule was cancelled as some teams like Virgin or Hispania wanted...

#28 Massa

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 11:06

Alguersuari thought that Massa was behind him. But it was Alonso :/

#29 showtime

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 11:24

Alguersuari thought that Massa was behind him. But it was Alonso :/


Exactly.

#30 Sausage

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 13:14

Sutil did too at the restart, he blocked Alonso thinking it was Massa. It was really busy, can't blame them too much. Got the same feeling as OP though seeing the Barrichello-Alguersuari thing.

#31 Wingcommander

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 14:10

Buemi has usually been faster in qualifying, but in recent races he has been off the pace. Alguersuari has improved during the season, and his race performances are usually very good. Buemi has had a couple very good races but sometimes he just seems to get into a trulli-mode in race. Still I think that both drivers are usually better in races than in qualifyings. Always fighting in the midfield and sometimes challenging for points. I'd keep both of them for another season and see what happens. I don't think there are available any faster&cheaper drivers. And as we've seen with Hulkenberg, it takes time for rookies to get up to speed as there is no in-season testing.

#32 ivanalesi

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 14:21

Guys, do you bother to look outside the top 10? Why on earth do you think STR must fire Buemi? He's the faster driver, both in qualifying and races. He has about 3 times more points, he has beaten convincingly Alguersuari in qualifying and the team said that Alguersuari is about 0.3 sec. off Buemi. Yet there is little difference in their F1 experience and it's normal that from 19 races Alguersuari will be better in 5... This is like the hype around Brundle being a match to Senna even though Senna won 15 from 20 races!?
There was just lots of media coverage on Alguersuari because of his track antics, mainly holding off some faster cars in trouble, nothing more. I think many fans are falling a lot for the media opinion or coverage of certain drivers. Same with Di Resta substituting Liuzzi or Sutil, Kobayashi being amazing while Heidfeld w/o testing matching his pace, De la Rosa worthy of F1 seat when he's been trashed by all his teammates(excl. Takagi) or even more amazingly Chandhok being anywhere near a proper F1 driver!? Being more on camera doesn't make you faster. Get real.


#33 ivanalesi

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 14:26

And? Kobayashi was nowhere in some junior series and he has established himself very well in F1... On other hand Hulkenberg was a star in many categories, but in F1 I don t think he turned the world around...


Dude, if Kobayashi gets unlucky to be teamed up with Hulkenberg, his arse will turn red ;) Nico is close to Rubens in qualy and Rubens is a very good gauge, much, much better than de la Who! They were teamed up together in F3ES in ASM, there was no contest... same goes for Grosjean vs Kobayashi. He's just exciting and he had demotivated teammate(Trulli) and a slow teammate.

#34 William Hunt

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 14:54

...De la Rosa worthy of F1 seat when he's been trashed by all his teammates(excl. Takagi) ...


That's a false statement, de la Rosa was matching Irvine at Jaguar and beating Verstappen at Arrows in qualifying. Only at McLaren he was trashed by Kimi but that's no shame but de la Rosa was never a slow driver if you claim he is that we must conclude that Irvine and Verstappen were even slower.

Edited by William Hunt, 08 November 2010 - 14:59.


#35 ivanalesi

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 15:10

Yeah, he matched Irvine so well that Irvine managed to get a podium in his last season, while Pedro scored 0 pts over the whole season - worthy driver! He was so much in the spot light because he was open with the media, if Badoer was so talkative we would be supporting his case as well ;)
And yes, he's slow. Peter Sauber just thought for some reason that he would help them develop the car, but he turned to be too inconsistent even for this.

Edited by ivanalesi, 08 November 2010 - 15:11.


#36 sosidge

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 15:15

Back on the topic of bad driving from Buemi and Alguersari...

What I found most disappointing (from both of them if I recall correctly) is the "defend on the inside, then slip wide on the apex" nature of a lot of the contact.

This is real racing basics - if you are on the inside but not ahead, you have to hug that apex tight and leave room, otherwise the contact is inevitable. Barrichello and others suffered as a result. Would like to see a closer replay of Massa's contact with Buemi to see if it was the same problem.

#37 kandru

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 15:15

Alguersuari thought that Massa was behind him. But it was Alonso :/

he was being blue flagged and I'm sure he was being told on the radio as well

#38 marcoferrari

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 15:15

Guys, do you bother to look outside the top 10? Why on earth do you think STR must fire Buemi? He's the faster driver, both in qualifying and races. He has about 3 times more points, he has beaten convincingly Alguersuari in qualifying and the team said that Alguersuari is about 0.3 sec. off Buemi. Yet there is little difference in their F1 experience and it's normal that from 19 races Alguersuari will be better in 5... This is like the hype around Brundle being a match to Senna even though Senna won 15 from 20 races!?
There was just lots of media coverage on Alguersuari because of his track antics, mainly holding off some faster cars in trouble, nothing more. I think many fans are falling a lot for the media opinion or coverage of certain drivers. Same with Di Resta substituting Liuzzi or Sutil, Kobayashi being amazing while Heidfeld w/o testing matching his pace, De la Rosa worthy of F1 seat when he's been trashed by all his teammates(excl. Takagi) or even more amazingly Chandhok being anywhere near a proper F1 driver!? Being more on camera doesn't make you faster. Get real.


Yes, some of us are following also drivers outside the top 10... Buemi shouldn be fired, cause he is a solid driver, but what you are writing here is also not the whole truth... About points - where does he had technical problems, when he was challenging points? In Monaco point was given to him after Schumacher s penalty... In Monza, he wasn t too fast to maintain his position against Barrichello... And there are NO other examples... Valencia and Montreal were great races of Buemi and the only two of this season, where he had really showed the ability to score points...
About Alguersuari - you can easily compare his qualifying gaps to Buemi to see, who has improved and in what level... Last year Alguersuari didn t beat Buemi pacewise in ANY qaulifying and race... But for a young unexperienced rookie he showed a very solid speed in Spa (qualifying) and Suzuka (race)... This year (the first half of season) he was slower then Buemi in qualifyings on for him UNKNOWN circuits... But on race pace he matched Buemi right from the beginning... Everything about their laptimes can be found at FIA. com... Another thing - at the point, when Alguersuari came back to known tracks, he had clearly the upper hand... 9 tenths ahead of Buemi in Spa, 8 tenths ahead again in Singapore, 7 tenths ahead in Korea, 4 tenths ahead in Hockenheim, almost 3 tenths ahead in Brasil and so on... Recently he beated Buemi in quali for 4th time in a row and for 6th time in last 8 qualifyings... He was challenging for 10th places in Singapore (qualifying), Suzuka, Yongyam and Interlagos (races)... He lost minimum 10 points for technical failures (pneumatic gun trouble - Barcelona, Yeongyam), coolant leak (Singapore)... So the actual points shows NOTHING...
EDIT - And he was again faster in Suzuka, but the contact with Kobayashi promoted Buemi to a point...

Edited by marcoferrari, 08 November 2010 - 15:25.


#39 seltaeb

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 15:19

No offense to any of their fans, but sometimes I forget that Toro Rosso is even out there. They seem to be the most anonymous team in 2010 by a long way. You see HRTs and Lotuses on TV more than the TRs.

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#40 marcoferrari

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 15:28

No offense to any of their fans, but sometimes I forget that Toro Rosso is even out there. They seem to be the most anonymous team in 2010 by a long way. You see HRTs and Lotuses on TV more than the TRs.


Fernando Alonso was also almost invisible in Minardi... And where is he now?

#41 ivanalesi

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 15:28

Marco, Alguersuari knows most EU tracks(excl. Valencia) from his time in FR2.0 and WSbR. It's good trend for Alguersuari, but on many of these races you had to gamble on setup for qualy or race, the whole direction you take from Friday is a gamble - Spa, Suzuka, Korea and Brasil... So at best they're matched over the season, but you don't have any reason why you would drop Buemi instead of Alguersuari.
Also by far the most impressive performance from STR was Buemi in Canada ;)

Edited by ivanalesi, 08 November 2010 - 15:29.


#42 r4mses

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 15:32

No offense to any of their fans, but sometimes I forget that Toro Rosso is even out there. They seem to be the most anonymous team in 2010 by a long way. You see HRTs and Lotuses on TV more than the TRs.


That's because whenever there's a SRT car on TV for a few seconds, you think "meeeh, just another RBR" :x ...at least that's what happens to me quite often when neither of the cars is in traffic and it's no close-up on TV. I'd suggest a new, more unique livery.

#43 kandru

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 15:35

Fernando Alonso was also almost invisible in Minardi... And where is he now?

I strongly disagree. He used to put his car where it didn't belong more often than not, making his talent and speed quite obvious

#44 seltaeb

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 15:38

That's because whenever there's a SRT car on TV for a few seconds, you think "meeeh, just another RBR" :x ...at least that's what happens to me quite often when neither of the cars is in traffic and it's no close-up on TV. I'd suggest a new, more unique livery.

A new livery would definitely help. I hate all the Red Bull liveries, gold nose or yellow nose. :p

#45 Dino G

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 15:38

They are trying to establish themselves but have been sloppy in doing so, no question. Will it make people think twice? Absolutely, but they will never be known as "hard men" to pass like Villeneuve or Schumacher etc...in a manner of respect. They will be known as careless and dangerous, dismissed as careless amateurs.

#46 marcoferrari

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 15:41

Marco, Alguersuari knows most EU tracks(excl. Valencia) from his time in FR2.0 and WSbR. It's good trend for Alguersuari, but on many of these races you had to gamble on setup for qualy or race, the whole direction you take from Friday is a gamble - Spa, Suzuka, Korea and Brasil... So at best they're matched over the season, but you don't have any reason why you would drop Buemi instead of Alguersuari.
Also by far the most impressive performance from STR was Buemi in Canada ;)


But he never drove those tracks in A F1 CAR... And that makes a difference... And difference between Alguersuari and Buemi was also in testing mileage.... Jaime came to Formula One with 0 km of testing, Buemi tested a F1 car already in year 2007! and he had overall 10 000 kilometres of preparation, which coveres almost one whole season of races... And about Buemi and Canada - Alguersuari was driving in the same position in Korea, but what he should do in the pit, change the tyres by himself? He was ahead of Liuzzi (who was overtaken by Jaime directly on track) before the messed stop, and Liuzzi finished 6th... It is very easy to trash a driver looking just on the points table and not following his performances...

#47 marcoferrari

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 15:47

I strongly disagree. He used to put his car where it didn't belong more often than not, making his talent and speed quite obvious


Really? I can remember Suzuka and Indianapolis... But there were also times, when he had even problems with Tarso Marques... (Sepang or Nurburgring for example) And not to forget it was still the era of not very reliable cars, so technical issues occured quite often and make some results look better as the actual performance of driver was... These days is much much tougher to score points...

Edited by marcoferrari, 08 November 2010 - 15:48.


#48 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 15:49

seriously, it's not about pace or luck
they just have to stop bumping into people. that's clumsy

kobayashi came last year into f1 without any experience and made a huge imapct from the word go.

#49 marcoferrari

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 15:50

They are trying to establish themselves but have been sloppy in doing so, no question. Will it make people think twice? Absolutely, but they will never be known as "hard men" to pass like Villeneuve or Schumacher etc...in a manner of respect. They will be known as careless and dangerous, dismissed as careless amateurs.


HOW OLD IS ALGUERSUARI? You are waiting from 20 years old unexperienced guy to overtake and behave on the track like someone who has over 200 GP completed? :eek: Ridiculous...

Edited by marcoferrari, 08 November 2010 - 15:56.


#50 marcoferrari

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 15:52

seriously, it's not about pace or luck
they just have to stop bumping into people. that's clumsy

kobayashi came last year into f1 without any experience and made a huge imapct from the word go.


And are you sure that Kobayashi didn t crash to someone so far? I fairly doubt it... Not so long time ago, he collided with Schumacher in Singapore...

Edited by marcoferrari, 08 November 2010 - 15:54.