Jump to content


Photo

Corrected poll: If Red Bull swap drivers in Abu Dhabi, will it be a devaluated championship?


  • Please log in to reply
47 replies to this topic

Poll: After hearing all the stuff about team orders rules from Christian Horner, if it comes the time for a swap in order to avoid Alonso from winning the championship.... will it be a devaluated championship? (182 member(s) have cast votes)

After hearing all the stuff about team orders rules from Christian Horner, if it comes the time for a swap in order to avoid Alonso from winning the championship.... will it be a devaluated championship?

  1. No. (85 votes [46.70%])

    Percentage of vote: 46.70%

  2. Yes. (18 votes [9.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.89%

  3. No. Another show of the team orders hypocrisy. (25 votes [13.74%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.74%

  4. Yes. Christian Horner should leave Formula 1 ala Briatore (2 votes [1.10%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.10%

  5. No. Perfect retribution to Ferrari tactics (49 votes [26.92%])

    Percentage of vote: 26.92%

  6. Yes. Sebastian Vettel should leave the team as much as Felipe Massa. (3 votes [1.65%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.65%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 Architrion

Architrion
  • Member

  • 141 posts
  • Joined: January 08

Posted 08 November 2010 - 12:29

Ok. I've read your arguments. Let's begin again.

Advertisement

#2 sosidge

sosidge
  • Member

  • 1,674 posts
  • Joined: April 10

Posted 08 November 2010 - 12:35

Too many damn polls on the same topic!!!!

#3 MadYarpen

MadYarpen
  • Member

  • 3,886 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 08 November 2010 - 12:36

Well, now I can vote No:) It is a team sport, no matter what team principals will say.

#4 Architrion

Architrion
  • Member

  • 141 posts
  • Joined: January 08

Posted 08 November 2010 - 12:39

Well, now I can vote No:) It is a team sport, no matter what team principals will say.

happier?

#5 cheapracer

cheapracer
  • Member

  • 10,388 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 08 November 2010 - 12:57

Well, now I can vote No:) It is a team sport, no matter what team principals will say.


Oh and what about the rules?

Those rules that people have to follow like it or lump it.

But I voted no to get back at Ferrari's Hungary tactic because I'm a spiteful bastard :lol:




#6 seahawk

seahawk
  • Member

  • 3,132 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 08 November 2010 - 12:58

After Korea, I would feel that the title would really be gifted to Mark by Sebastian if that happens.

#7 unoc

unoc
  • Member

  • 109 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 08 November 2010 - 12:58

Devaluated champinship? If anyone thinks this drivers championship will be devlauated then we all we have seen in ages has been devaluated championships.

Brawn most probably did
McLaren gave better strat and tech to Hamilton
Ferrari switched them in Brazil 07
Alonso... are you bloody kidding me.. yes, he was top driver, also helped by his manager being principle..
Alonso.. as above
Schumacher.... of course n--- oh wait... yes...
schumacher yes
schumacher yes
schumacher yes
schumacher yes
schumacher yes
hakkinen.. listen to coulthard on BBC and he has said it many a time
hakkinen yes
etc...


#8 Dunder

Dunder
  • Member

  • 6,784 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 08 November 2010 - 13:05

If Red Bull win the WDC by swapping in Abu Dhabi, will it be devalued? No.
If Ferrari win the WDC having swapped in Germany, Will it be devalued? No.
Do we need anymore threads on this subject? No.

#9 Hairpin

Hairpin
  • Member

  • 4,468 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 08 November 2010 - 13:14

A more interesting poll would be:
If Red Bull DO NOT swap the drivers at Abu Dhabi and Alonso wins the championship BECAUSE Ferrari swapped the drivers at Hockenheim, would you be pissed and throw something cheap onto your TV set??

#10 unoc

unoc
  • Member

  • 109 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 08 November 2010 - 13:29

no.. ferrari wnted to win... they maximed there chances... red bull need to do so aswell. I don't care about team orders when its clera and tacticful later in the season just as it has been done in years past. But having mid season radio tranmission says .... Alonso is faster than you.. wink wink nudge nudge...

#11 kosmic33

kosmic33
  • Member

  • 1,548 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 08 November 2010 - 13:31

If Red Bull win the WDC by swapping in Abu Dhabi, will it be devalued? No.
If Ferrari win the WDC having swapped in Germany, Will it be devalued? No.
Do we need anymore threads on this subject? No.

:clap: Post of the year! :clap:

#12 velgajski1

velgajski1
  • Member

  • 3,656 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 08 November 2010 - 15:32

If Red Bull win the WDC by swapping in Abu Dhabi, will it be devalued? No.
If Ferrari win the WDC having swapped in Germany, Will it be devalued? No.
Do we need anymore threads on this subject? No.

:up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up: :up:


#13 Muz Bee

Muz Bee
  • Member

  • 2,531 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 08 November 2010 - 19:18

A more interesting poll would be:
If Red Bull DO NOT swap the drivers at Abu Dhabi and Alonso wins the championship BECAUSE Ferrari swapped the drivers at Hockenheim, would you be pissed and throw something cheap onto your TV set??

:up: :up: Absolutely. If RedBull lose because of a simple compromise then they will really look foolish or Vettel will look like a spiteful little boy.

The topic has been well covered elsewhere, I don't understand why the moderators haven't merged this out of existence. I don't understand why some people here can't get it about team orders being a fact of F1 life, forever, but that it's how and when it's carried out. Roebuck covered it nicely in Motorsport magazine. As a traditionalist I believe in the fact that F1 is partly a team sport, as a person who believes in fairness I believe team orders needs to be applied judiciously as infrequently as possible.

#14 JustinCider

JustinCider
  • Member

  • 836 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 08 November 2010 - 19:22

In answer to the question, i think YES if you're a Ferrari fan desperately trying to justify Germany (too early in the season, no other reason), and a big fat NO if you think sensibly.

#15 simplyfast

simplyfast
  • Member

  • 867 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 08 November 2010 - 19:24

:up: :up: Absolutely. If RedBull lose because of a simple compromise then they will really look foolish or Vettel will look like a spiteful little boy.

The topic has been well covered elsewhere, I don't understand why the moderators haven't merged this out of existence. I don't understand why some people here can't get it about team orders being a fact of F1 life, forever, but that it's how and when it's carried out. Roebuck covered it nicely in Motorsport magazine. As a traditionalist I believe in the fact that F1 is partly a team sport, as a person who believes in fairness I believe team orders needs to be applied judiciously as infrequently as possible.


Its simple really because team orders are about teams and this is an individual title or cant you see that

#16 WhiteBlue

WhiteBlue
  • Member

  • 2,138 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 08 November 2010 - 19:28

If Vettel gifts the championship to Webber it will be devalued because the third will be elevated to first without own merrit.

#17 JustinCider

JustinCider
  • Member

  • 836 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 08 November 2010 - 19:35

If Vettel gifts the championship to Webber it will be devalued because the third will be elevated to first without own merrit.


Ferrari, Brazil 2007. Ferrari (attempted), Brazil 2008. Hmmm....

:down:

#18 Szoelloe

Szoelloe
  • Member

  • 5,760 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 08 November 2010 - 19:40

Vettel cannot gift anything to Webber, he is going to move aside on his own right as anybody would in his situation, as soon as it is obvious during the race that he has no chance to win the WDC. If he does not, than I go and state that he is the biggest xxxhole in F1. If he does not, than he gifts the wdc to Alonso, which he CAN do. In that case, if I were in Horner's place I would put him on ice at once, and let the reserve driver race next year. Never going to happen, if he is in a position to elevate his teammate, he will do it, it is the only sensible thing to do. On the other hand, if he will be in the position to win the WDC himself, he has to go for it, period. What is there to not understand in this situation?

dunder: thumbs up

#19 pikamoku

pikamoku
  • Member

  • 357 posts
  • Joined: December 07

Posted 08 November 2010 - 19:41

what a week !! :drunk: :drunk:

The Poll Week

Advertisement

#20 metz

metz
  • Member

  • 9,828 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 08 November 2010 - 19:43

Well, now I can vote No:) It is a team sport, no matter what team principals will say.

Common misconception.
The WDC is NOT for the team.

I believe in team orders for the WCC, but never the concept of sacrificing one driver for another.

#21 simplyfast

simplyfast
  • Member

  • 867 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 08 November 2010 - 19:46

If Vettel gifts the championship to Webber it will be devalued because the third will be elevated to first without own merrit.


perhaps you should go check the WDC standings as clearly you have not got one fact right.

Atleast with Vettel and Webber they have fought to the very last race which is clearly something that never could be said of Alonso.

CH has made a laughing stock of red bull but atleast they have raced without team orders and given the fans what they paid to see racing.
while Ferrari have just made a laughing stock of all who support and watch F1 and want to turn F1 into the same sort of sudo sport as WWE.

#22 JPW

JPW
  • Member

  • 3,335 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 08 November 2010 - 19:50

So nearly 90% here has no problem with a Red Bull team-order in Abu Dhabi, I'd say the time is there to abolish this silly TO-rule. :up:

#23 midgrid

midgrid
  • Member

  • 4,873 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 08 November 2010 - 19:51

I don't think so, but I can imagine the PR problem that Red Bull faces. Imagine the scenario at Abu Dhabi if Vettel lets Webber through to win the championship, particularly if he makes it obvious (e.g. last corner, last lap). All the headlines will say something like "Webber gifted championship victory". If Alonso wins the title, the headlines will be along the lines of "Alonso crowns remarkable comeback", and Ferrari's own use of team orders will not be as prominent because it happened several races ago.

#24 pikamoku

pikamoku
  • Member

  • 357 posts
  • Joined: December 07

Posted 08 November 2010 - 19:53

...
while Ferrari have just made a laughing stock of all who support and watch F1 and want to turn F1 into the same sort of sudo sport as WWE.


Ferrari has always said that "Ferrari do what better suits Ferrari". Maybe you have misunderstood what this statement means, but all in Ferrari havent. And it is not about TO, its about to guide a TEAM.

Edited by pikamoku, 08 November 2010 - 19:54.


#25 Dunder

Dunder
  • Member

  • 6,784 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 08 November 2010 - 19:55

So nearly 90% here has no problem with a Red Bull team-order in Abu Dhabi, I'd say the time is there to abolish this silly TO-rule. :up:


Very few had a problem with Brazil 2007 or China 2008 either.
The rule should never have been introduced, it was a kneejerk reaction to Ferrari taking the p!ss.


#26 ForzaGTR

ForzaGTR
  • Member

  • 3,084 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 08 November 2010 - 19:59

The way Ferrari implented the team order is Germany annoyed people but the lying from the whole garage afterwards really pissed people off. Red Bull will just sort out their tactics before the race, you won't here any team orders over the radio, just a driver making his "own" choice.

#27 aditya-now

aditya-now
  • Member

  • 7,211 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 08 November 2010 - 21:17

Well, now I can vote No:) It is a team sport, no matter what team principals will say.


Voted no. It´s as clear cut as that. Thanks for giving the option this time.


#28 Szoelloe

Szoelloe
  • Member

  • 5,760 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 08 November 2010 - 21:21

So nearly 90% here has no problem with a Red Bull team-order in Abu Dhabi, I'd say the time is there to abolish this silly TO-rule. :up:



Where and when is it a team order to leave it to the 2 drivers(ok the key figure is Vettel) to decide what to do? This situation, if either of the RB drivers win the WDC will strengthen the TO rule ur speaking about, not weaken it, and RB is going to be glorified. If Alonso wins the WDC, (or Hamilton, although it does not seem realistic) then RB is going to laughed at by some teams maybe, but it will still be a marketing bombshell for them. Win/win scenario, and they don't give shxt about the TO rule. Risky, but they have more to lose with team orders now than they win with it, and it is not even necessary, because Webber, in the appropriate situation, is fully in Vettels hands now. And Vettel is obliged to lift off, if he can't win but Webber can. And verybody will be happy about it, but Ferrari.

#29 BigWicks

BigWicks
  • Member

  • 750 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 08 November 2010 - 21:26

I don't think so, but I can imagine the PR problem that Red Bull faces. Imagine the scenario at Abu Dhabi if Vettel lets Webber through to win the championship, particularly if he makes it obvious (e.g. last corner, last lap). All the headlines will say something like "Webber gifted championship victory". If Alonso wins the title, the headlines will be along the lines of "Alonso crowns remarkable comeback", and Ferrari's own use of team orders will not be as prominent because it happened several races ago.


the media will screw Red Bull whatever they do, and trust me, the PR is worse if you clown around with team orders and lose than if you clown around with them and win.

#30 mtknot

mtknot
  • Member

  • 720 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 08 November 2010 - 23:10

However, the fact that Horner has already said that he will not issue any team orders should make it rather clear what Red Bull will do.

As they have won the constructors title already, all the last race for them is a nice extra piece of PR to sweeten the already sweet paycheck that the team is getting for their efforts and going against what they've re-iterated several times; no team orders, would be a PR disaster wouldn't it?

However, if Vettel decides to cede the lead to Webber under his own will, and comes out and goes "here ya go mark! grats!" or something like that... I'll be drinking a lot of Red Bulls (extremely good PR; makes Red Bull look like a "real team"). I don't think the cynics on this forum think its physically possible for this scenario to be even imagined though...


Why it went so horribly wrong for Ferrari's PR:

-The team denied the allegations at first, but then admitted later.
-No clear stance on team orders/contradictory statements from different parts of the team.

EDIT:

Having poll options such as these:

No. Another show of the team orders hypocrisy. [ 17 ] ** [14.41%]
Yes. Christian Horner should leave Formula 1 ala Briatore [ 1 ] ** [0.85%]
No. Perfect retribution to Ferrari tactics [ 29 ] ** [24.58%]
Yes. Sebastian Vettel should leave the team as much as Felipe Massa.

Makes you look rather bigoted and ignore-listable. My advice would be just to put "yes, no, or maybe". Polls are meant to be neutral in order to objective; attatching statements which clearly swing one way is not.

Edited by mtknot, 08 November 2010 - 23:13.


#31 Jones Foyer

Jones Foyer
  • Member

  • 478 posts
  • Joined: November 06

Posted 08 November 2010 - 23:22

Massively devalifciated.

#32 Andrew Hope

Andrew Hope
  • Writer of 2013's Best Opening Post

  • 7,071 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 09 November 2010 - 00:07

I don't really care either way. I can't shit on a team for doing something that every other team on the grid would do if they were in Red Bull's place. If everyone's guilty, then no one's guilty, and everyone most certainly would be guilty if it were their team.

#33 Craven Morehead

Craven Morehead
  • Member

  • 4,580 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 09 November 2010 - 03:18

If we have another thread on this topic will it devalue this bulletin board?

#34 Birelman

Birelman
  • Member

  • 2,537 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 09 November 2010 - 04:00

I don't see how Webber winning on a team order would be any more devaluing than Alonso winning it with an extra 7 points gains in Germany in the same manner.

However, if Vettel manages to pull off a Raikkonen, then that's a completely guilty free Championship, isn't it?

#35 zeph

zeph
  • Member

  • 767 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 09 November 2010 - 04:16

Tar and Feathers for everybody involved with RBR. Railroad them out of town. Ban them from the F1 forever and bring back Flavio Briatore.


#36 teejay

teejay
  • Member

  • 3,768 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 09 November 2010 - 04:21

I think the only fair thing to do is to let Lewis win, avoids any team mate swapping issues.

#37 unoc

unoc
  • Member

  • 109 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 09 November 2010 - 04:49

What if webber is in the lead?

#38 JosTheBoss

JosTheBoss
  • Member

  • 571 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted 09 November 2010 - 04:49

I believe in team orders for the WCC, but never the concept of sacrificing one driver for another.


Unless someone was sacrificing for Heidfeld of course.;)

#39 Hole

Hole
  • Member

  • 2,232 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 09 November 2010 - 22:37

Nao the boss of RBR says he wouldn't make team orders. That's because it's not Vettel the one ahead in the championship. :rolleyes:

Advertisement

#40 DILLIGAF

DILLIGAF
  • Member

  • 3,210 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 09 November 2010 - 22:40

Nao the boss of RBR says he wouldn't make team orders. That's because it's not Vettel the one ahead in the championship. :rolleyes:


Yep, pretty much.

#41 Brandz07

Brandz07
  • Member

  • 3,220 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 09 November 2010 - 22:43

no, ferrari did exactly the same so why can't another team.

#42 DILLIGAF

DILLIGAF
  • Member

  • 3,210 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 09 November 2010 - 23:00

So 85% say no. Pretty conclusive poll.

#43 John B

John B
  • Member

  • 6,331 posts
  • Joined: June 99

Posted 10 November 2010 - 01:32

No problem at all with them doing it Sunday, or if they had last weekend.

Team orders have been a part of WDCs for years, some early races I remember growing up were Ferrari picking their WDC at Monaco in 1979 and Reutimann being asked to give Jones the second GP of the year on a plate.

#44 Muzzyf1

Muzzyf1
  • Member

  • 103 posts
  • Joined: August 09

Posted 10 November 2010 - 06:15

If Red Bull win the WDC by swapping in Abu Dhabi, will it be devalued? No.
If Ferrari win the WDC having swapped in Germany, Will it be devalued? No.
Do we need anymore threads on this subject? No.

:)


Exactly !

#45 Henri Greuter

Henri Greuter
  • Member

  • 4,948 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 10 November 2010 - 08:32

In my eyes Red Bull would be stupid not to order their drivers to swap places if that enables them to secure the double.

WDC's are better remembered and more prestigeous for the public.
We know much better remember Piquet winning 1981 with a Brabham-Ford and Prost in 1986 with a Mclaren-TAG then we do remember (With the exception of Frank Willams of course) that Williams became WCC champion that year.

It is likely Mark's best/last chance ever. And securing the double is prestigious enough to do it. In the last race team orders should be permittable.
I can't imagine FIA coming down on Red Bull for giving such an order in the last race of the year with the title at stake.
Same if, imagine it. Massa is ahead of Alonso and needs to move over in order for Alonso to stay ahead of Webber.
You can't forbid a team, (ANY team) that has the chance to take the title in the last race of the year by giving a team order to do so.

If it is needed to take the title but Red Bull still doesn't do it, kudo's for their fair play but it will hurt their PR Big time.

The only excuse I can think off the Red Bull passes up on enabling Webber to take the title would be if they know they are going to fire him after the season and wanting to prevent him to take the coveted Number 1 he won, courtesy Red Bull to another team.

Henri


#46 Phucaigh

Phucaigh
  • Member

  • 2,838 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 10 November 2010 - 08:44

Kimi won his title when Massa swapped the lead in Brazil in 2007.

It would be nothing new.

#47 Kelateboy

Kelateboy
  • Member

  • 5,797 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 10 November 2010 - 08:55

If Red Bull win the WDC by swapping in Abu Dhabi, will it be devalued? No.
If Ferrari win the WDC having swapped in Germany, Will it be devalued? No.
Do we need anymore threads on this subject? No.

We have got too many threads on the same subject.

Nope, it will not devalue Webber's achievement. He will be a well-deserving WDC even if his win is handed to him on a silver platter by his teammate because this is afterall a team sport.

#48 nomeg1

nomeg1
  • Member

  • 4,942 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 10 November 2010 - 09:19

As the World Driver’s Championship will be unveiled in Abu Dhabi Sunday, there are numerous drivers who are putting RBR under pressure.
If Vettel wins the race in front of Webber, the crown will be Alonso’s. If Vettel let Webber pass, the late one will be titled, and RBR which just won the Constructor’s Championship, will have a World’s Champion driver as well.
Even if RBR’s President is against team orders, one should ask himself if RBR will eventually let the crown go to another team’s driver, hence Fernando Alonso ?
Support from Vettel in this case won’t be perceived as manipulation, but “probably” a team’s work.
Some, like Button this week, Nick Heidfeld last week, and Max Mosley the week before, hope that the 7 points that were handed to Alonso in Germany won’t be the winning ones. “We will always wonder if he deserved it”, said Button.
As there is so much to lose, several drivers have commented on RBR’s policy : “I am always for it, that drivers should be given same opportunities, and let them fight on the track, but I wonder if the situation would be the same if the positions were reversed” said Barrichello, who obviously thinks that Webber would have been asked to help Vettel should the driver’s points be inversed ?
“Mark did a great job this year, and his team has let him know his stand” said Lewis Hamilton. “Against adversity, he went on firing; I want to see Mark win”.
Evidently, if Vettel is leading the race before Webber and Alonso, he still could let his team mate pass him in the last lap. Webber hopes that this will be a fact : “Otherwise the team orders Ferrari gave would pay for Fernando” he said to “Bild”
Christian Horner (as cupid as ever IMO) prefers to let his drivers fight, and told “Autosprint” that a fair judgment should prevail : “We already have given enough presents to Fernando this year”.

Edited by nomeg1, 10 November 2010 - 09:21.