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Is it a Matter of Honour for Vettel?


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#1 Nivra

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 19:20

Does Vettel's refusal to acknowledge Team-Orders for Abu Dhabi be more of personal respect & driver's honour. I mean, which driver wants to be known as gotten beaten by his team-mate... let alone if he is actually not beaten fairly.

If Vettel manages to continue his form and beat Mark Webber & Alonso in Abu Dhabi, then Vettel has every right not to hand over his win to Mark Webber out of pity. Vettel has now beaten Webber continuously in the last 5-6 races and is only behind in points because of a lot of bad luck (apart from mistakes)... hence this current 'Team-Order' hysteria going around pestering Vettel & RedBull as Webber hasn't been good enough to beat him in recent form.

....Since its already assumed by many (not me) that Vettel will probably beat Webber coz of being the superior driver (or why assume team-order situation), here goes the standings if Vettel wins, Webber is 2nd & Alonso 3rd in race...-

1- Alonso- 261 points = ***Wdc***
2- Vettel- 256 Points = 5 wins
3- Webber- 256 points = 4 wins

or if Vettel lets Webber pass

1- Webber-WDC2010
2- Alonso - .......
3- Vettel

Why would Vettel want to go down in History (including F1 Books & the dreaded F1 Forums) as being the guy beaten by his Team-Mate Webber in 2010 season, driving for Red Bull Racing Team.

He's young & he's been fast! Why would a 23 year old driver want his CV or Report Card to show - "Sebastian Vettel= Beaten by Team-Mate & Rival Mark Webber- 2010 Season"

Shouldn't Vettel have the rights to protect his personal record over his Team-Mate, as well as his Championship standings? Webber has been good enough to win races; and anyways Webber's glory has nothing to do with Vettel himself. If anything, he'll come out the biggest loser from actually helping out.

P.S- Also, Vettel will be relegated to 3rd in the standings instead of Runner-Up (2nd) if he lets Webber win over him... even that holds an important number for all Drivers in Formula 1.

Therefore, I think Webber should atleast up his game a little and beat SV fairly on track. That ways, he's not "Robbing" a young driver of his deserving 2nd place in the championship... but will be regarded as a true champion himself.

C'mon Webber Mate, just win the race & the championship honorably for the sake of all F1 Fans and Viewers.

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#2 Dunder

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 19:27

Vettel is paid quite handsomely as an employee of the team.

A WDC for the team is far more important than a 2nd place in the championship for Vettel. As talented as Vettel is, the designers and engineers work every bit as hard and without them neither Vettel or Webber would not be where they are in the championship.

#3 Nivra

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 19:36

Vettel is paid quite handsomely as an employee of the team.

A WDC for the team is far more important than a 2nd place in the championship for Vettel. As talented as Vettel is, the designers and engineers work every bit as hard and without them neither Vettel or Webber would not be where they are in the championship.


Yeah, maybe.

But then again, WCC is related to the team, while Wdc mainly belongs to an individual. Alonso & Button left and took their No.1 to Mclaren in 2007 & 2010. Teams (Renault & Brawn) generally feel aggrieved when that happens as they get a lot of negative media coverage when that happens... as they are not regarded as good enough anymore by their own Current Champions.

So, imagine if Webber leaves RBR as World Driver's Champion to be with another team... Ferrari is still a possibility considering Massa's situation. He will not leave RBR for sure, but imagine if he did. RBR have more to lose in that situation, while Webber will be basking under the Ferrari Glory Box, very pleased about his retirement plans in a couple of years!

Edited by Nivra, 08 November 2010 - 19:40.


#4 Dunder

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 19:44

Yeah, maybe.

But then again, WCC is related to the team, while Wdc mainly belongs to an individual. Alonso & Button left and took their No.1 to Mclaren in 2007 & 2010. Teams (Renault & Brawn) generally feel aggrieved when that happens as they get a lot of negative media coverage when that happens... as they are not regarded as good enough anymore by their own Current Champions.

So, imagine if Webber leaves RBR as World Driver's Champion to be with another team... Ferrari is still a possibility considering Massa's situation. He will not leave RBR for sure, but imagine if he did. RBR have more to lose in that situation.


That is a decent point and if recent happenings are an indication then it is true that Webber could leave. That has nothing to do with Vettel's honour though, does it?



#5 trogggy

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 19:49

Shouldn't Vettel have the rights to protect his personal record over his Team-Mate, as well as his Championship standings?

Yes.

And he has that right.

Given that he comes across as a decent and intelligent individual I don't expect he'll make use of it.

#6 simplyfast

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 19:53

Does Vettel's refusal to acknowledge Team-Orders for Abu Dhabi be more of personal respect & driver's honour. I mean, which driver wants to be known as gotten beaten by his team-mate... let alone if he is actually not beaten fairly.

If Vettel manages to continue his form and beat Mark Webber & Alonso in Abu Dhabi, then Vettel has every right not to hand over his win to Mark Webber out of pity. Vettel has now beaten Webber continuously in the last 5-6 races and is only behind in points because of a lot of bad luck (apart from mistakes)... hence this current 'Team-Order' hysteria going around pestering Vettel & RedBull as Webber hasn't been good enough to beat him in recent form.

....Since its already assumed by many (not me) that Vettel will probably beat Webber coz of being the superior driver (or why assume team-order situation), here goes the standings if Vettel wins, Webber is 2nd & Alonso 3rd in race...-

1- Alonso- 261 points = ***Wdc***
2- Vettel- 256 Points = 5 wins
3- Webber- 256 points = 4 wins

or if Vettel lets Webber pass

1- Webber-WDC2010
2- Alonso - .......
3- Vettel

Why would Vettel want to go down in History (including F1 Books & the dreaded F1 Forums) as being the guy beaten by his Team-Mate Webber in 2010 season, driving for Red Bull Racing Team.

He's young & he's been fast! Why would a 23 year old driver want his CV or Report Card to show - "Sebastian Vettel= Beaten by Team-Mate & Rival Mark Webber- 2010 Season"

Shouldn't Vettel have the rights to protect his personal record over his Team-Mate, as well as his Championship standings? Webber has been good enough to win races; and anyways Webber's glory has nothing to do with Vettel himself. If anything, he'll come out the biggest loser from actually helping out.

P.S- Also, Vettel will be relegated to 3rd in the standings instead of Runner-Up (2nd) if he lets Webber win over him... even that holds an important number for all Drivers in Formula 1.

Therefore, I think Webber should atleast up his game a little and beat SV fairly on track. That ways, he's not "Robbing" a young driver of his deserving 2nd place in the championship... but will be regarded as a true champion himself.

C'mon Webber Mate, just win the race & the championship honorably for the sake of all F1 Fans and Viewers.



Incase you have not noticed perhaps a look at the wdc standings will show you that so far over the course of this season Webber has been the better driver and scored more points hence why he is second in the standings to vettels 3rd.
So his personal record against Webber right now is close but not close enough.

#7 trogggy

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 19:57

Incase you have not noticed perhaps a look at the wdc standings will show you that so far over the course of this season Webber has been the better driver and scored more points hence why he is second in the standings to vettels 3rd.
So his personal record against Webber right now is close but not close enough.

So if SV's engine hadn't blown up a couple of weeks ago then he would have driven better than MW this season?

Wow, it's all so simple. :up:

#8 Nivra

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 19:58

That is a decent point and if recent happenings are an indication then it is true that Webber could leave. That has nothing to do with Vettel's honour though, does it?

Vettel, risking his life driving in an F1 car (anything can happen), definitely has Honour & Respect... and so does all F1 drivers. It's the only reason why great F1 drivers end fighting with their team-mates!!

Vettel may not be great yet, but I'm sure he doesn't want his Legacy to black-marked with a beating by Mark Webber, driving in the same machinery. It's not a great way to go down in the history books.

P.S- I'm against team order anyways and would like to sports to be won fairly... but yet I don't condone Alonso as Massa clearly had the choice of "not letting Alonso pass", even if he was faster than him".
Vettel still has that choice... so lets see what he does with that!

If he lets Webber pass, I would still consider Webber worthy champion, as it was Vettel's own choice to let him pass... & I would respect that too. :up:

Edited by Nivra, 08 November 2010 - 20:00.


#9 Risil

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 20:02

I was reading what Adrian Newey had to say about Red Bull Racing's competitiveness these last two years, putting a lot of success down to the recent forced major aerodynamic changes. Maybe Vettel is dimly (or acutely) aware that he may never get another chance as good as this to win a world championship?

#10 Nivra

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 20:03

Incase you have not noticed perhaps a look at the wdc standings will show you that so far over the course of this season Webber has been the better driver and scored more points hence why he is second in the standings to vettels 3rd.
So his personal record against Webber right now is close but not close enough.

It still doesn't matter... if Vettel beats Webber in Abu Dhabi... he'll be ahead of Webber in the Standings! Hence, will be rated ahead of Webber. The championship is still not over!!

#11 Risil

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 20:09

Also, I don't think drivers care that much about the final standings, at the top level motivation seems to come from a need to prove that they're the best, the fastest, the most able to dick on every other driver out there. Some stupid arithmetical calculation that has to include things like broken exhausts, computer glitches and depressing run-it-home-in-seventh-place races barely figures.

World Champion or not, IMO Vettel could not have staked his claim better that he's the alpha-plus in the pack. Which is not to say that he is, but he should be at peace with his results this year.


#12 KateLM

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 20:09

It still doesn't matter... if Vettel beats Webber in Abu Dhabi... he'll be ahead of Webber in the Standings! Hence, will be rated ahead of Webber. The championship is still not over!!

He'll also be rated as a bit of an arsehole who wouldn't do what was best for the team. And thats not going to impress the likes of McLaren or Ferrari, not to mention the team he currently drives for.

#13 simplyfast

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 20:19

So if SV's engine hadn't blown up a couple of weeks ago then he would have driven better than MW this season?

Wow, it's all so simple. :up:


troggy ifs and buts are all you have try using some real facts not what ifs
Or is that too simple.

#14 goingthedistance

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 20:19

If you want to talk about honour, let's talk about the 2010 Turkish GP, where Vettel ran his team-mate off the track in an overly zealous overtaking move. Mark lost 10 points that day due to Seb's actions. Those 10 points would put him in front of Alonso and in need of no assistance from Seb on Sunday.

Let's talk about the fact that on many an occasion this year Mark Webber has dutifully turned down his engine and ran in a procession behind his team-mate, despite having better race pace (Malaysia, Suzuka) something Vettel refused to do in Turkey despite the two being very evenly matched in pace.

Let's talk about Canada, where Webber was instructed to turn the engine down and finish behind Seb despite the fact Seb was nursing his car home with gearbox issues.

Let's talk about Monza, where Vettel was given a better pit strategy by the team and ended up in front of Webber in the final positions, despite having been outqualified and outpaced in the race by him.

Given the number of points Mark Webber has conceded to Sebastian Vettel through team orders this year, I hardly see how Vettel could cry foul when asked to deliver the WDC to the team if such a situation was to arise. He has cost him plenty, he could do with giving a few back.

Edited by goingthedistance, 08 November 2010 - 20:22.


#15 ManiaMuse

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 20:20

Vettel is a decent and sensible guy. He knows the situation, both drivers have been given equal opportunities all season, but being the final race does put a different spin on it. RBR have the WCC which is obviously great for the team but they would like to do the double if possible. Vettel knows what the title permutations could potentially be.

I think the media have been hyping this up a bit too early. RBR potential team orders were all over the stories from way before even Brazil. But as Korea showed, racing can be unpredictable, anything can happen. Brazil was pretty boring in terms of title twists but who knows what could have happened. The same can be said for Abu Dhabi, anyone could have a poor quali/puncture/engine failure/crash. In which case it was in Vettel's interests to be in contention come the final race in case Alonso and/or Webber came a cropper there.

In many ways having 2 drivers in contention come the final race could be an advantage for RBR. They are both still motivated to get pole which could be a problem for Alonso and it gives them more flexibility in the race.

I'm sure Vettel already knows what he would do and won't have any qualms about it whatever his decision is. But from his comments about Alonso, 'I wouldn't mind seeing his engine go up in smoke,' it sounds like he will play for the team if his title chances look over.

And anyway, Hamilton is still in the hunt so anything could happen.

#16 pingu666

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 20:30

if he doesnt move over, he will be considered a massive arsehole. sure he could wait till the last lap to do it incase alonso has a issue, but otherwise its a massive smack in the face to his team tbh

#17 iotar

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 20:40

What exactly is your point (in simple English)?

If the question is: has Vettel the right to not let Webber pass in Abu Dhabi then the answer is:
Of course ha has.

More to the point he should not do it under any circumstances and I mean it (let his team mate pass should such circumstances occur - this is very hypothetical discussion, Red Bull one-two with Vettel in front is far from guaranteed).

Moral dilemma: if a driver lets his team mate pass (on his own behalf because all this talk can't be just smoke screen to "protect" Red Bull drink company's non existent moral ETHOS, can it?)
is it still a TEAM ORDER and as such illegal, immoral and against SPORTSMANSHIP???

I mean technically he is a team member and his boss gave him freedom to do anything (we can't tell our driver to do such immoral thing - it's all about racing; let the driver decide). He would therefore issue an order (to himself) to interfere artificially with race result - the very definition of "team order".

It would be even worse than German Grand Prix situation. In Massa's case he was pressurized, in some way forced to do it by his boss, race engineer, team mate, the whole team. Responsibility and blame lay on many people.

If Vettel was to so something like that the sole responsibility and blame would lay on him. His seat is not in danger for example, he's got a contract, he is in no danger of going against his team's wishes (no problem for the team, Horner doesn't mind if they lose WDC as long as it's all about racing) and so on.




#18 trogggy

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 20:45

troggy ifs and buts are all you have try using some real facts not what ifs
Or is that too simple.

The wdc standings measure how many points each driver has. Not how well each has driven. The 'what if' was there to show how silly claiming the wdc shows which of Webber and Vettel has driven better is. If you disagree, fine. Make an argument. Or not.

#19 SK99

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 20:52

If you want to talk about honour, let's talk about the 2010 Turkish GP, where Vettel ran his team-mate off the track in an overly zealous overtaking move. Mark lost 10 points that day due to Seb's actions. Those 10 points would put him in front of Alonso and in need of no assistance from Seb on Sunday.

Let's talk about the fact that on many an occasion this year Mark Webber has dutifully turned down his engine and ran in a procession behind his team-mate, despite having better race pace (Malaysia, Suzuka) something Vettel refused to do in Turkey despite the two being very evenly matched in pace.

Let's talk about Canada, where Webber was instructed to turn the engine down and finish behind Seb despite the fact Seb was nursing his car home with gearbox issues.

Let's talk about Monza, where Vettel was given a better pit strategy by the team and ended up in front of Webber in the final positions, despite having been outqualified and outpaced in the race by him.

Given the number of points Mark Webber has conceded to Sebastian Vettel through team orders this year, I hardly see how Vettel could cry foul when asked to deliver the WDC to the team if such a situation was to arise. He has cost him plenty, he could do with giving a few back.


Interesting points. I agree with the first and third, but:

I'd like to know what evidence you have of all the times Webber has had better race pace, and would it be possible for me to see it?

Are you basing these on practice figures?

I don't see how you can claim those as fact with it just being practice if so - look at Korea for how little an indicator practice is to race events.

Are you claiming these on Webber being close consistently in those races?

I don't know how you can know Vettel is pushing for Webber to be that close, and if Webber had continued to push he wouldn't have pushed more. As far as I'm aware also Vettel said he was well in control and not particularly pushing in Suzuka - if there's evidence to the contrary that I've missed then I stand corrected.

Also, the Monza strategy was because Webber thought it was best to pit - that's what his engineer wanted to do too - as far as I know, and IIRC the majority of the grid, certianly the big players, thought the same - but Vettel just gambled and went for it. So is your conclusion based on hindsight or did Webber say he didn't want to pit but had to and I've missed this?

Edited by SK99, 08 November 2010 - 20:52.


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#20 goingthedistance

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 21:09

Interesting points. I agree with the first and third, but:

I'd like to know what evidence you have of all the times Webber has had better race pace, and would it be possible for me to see it?

Are you basing these on practice figures?

I don't see how you can claim those as fact with it just being practice if so - look at Korea for how little an indicator practice is to race events.

Are you claiming these on Webber being close consistently in those races?

I don't know how you can know Vettel is pushing for Webber to be that close, and if Webber had continued to push he wouldn't have pushed more. As far as I'm aware also Vettel said he was well in control and not particularly pushing in Suzuka - if there's evidence to the contrary that I've missed then I stand corrected.

Also, the Monza strategy was because Webber thought it was best to pit - that's what his engineer wanted to do too - as far as I know, and IIRC the majority of the grid, certianly the big players, thought the same - but Vettel just gambled and went for it. So is your conclusion based on hindsight or did Webber say he didn't want to pit but had to and I've missed this?


The FIA media centre is a great place to go if you want to pore over lap times.

Malaysia for me is a classic example of settling for the 1-2 result - Horner said afterwards that the team avoided clashes between its drivers by following a rule that says if they are running 1-2 whoever wins the first corner effectively wins the race (this was on the BBC) and he was happy with Mark for sticking with that. Suzuka I think they were very evenly paced in the race but Mark would have had more of a go had Seb not been a RB driver, no doubt. I don't necessarily believe Seb when he says he was "in control", he can inflate things at times...he said the same in Brazil but as Mark pointed out (again in a BBC interview) when Mark was going at Seb prior to his engine issue (so prior to lap 35) Seb was going all out ("all his wheels were on the curb" or some such remark) and Mark was still taking chunks of time out of him. We were deprived of a great finish there between the two I believe, with Mark's engine issues and the safety car ruining it.

With Monza, Webber was very angry after the race and obviously felt he'd been given the incorrect pit strategy. Yes, it could be a case of hindsight. But we'll never know as we just aren't privy to all the information.

Edited by goingthedistance, 08 November 2010 - 21:10.


#21 BigWicks

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 21:19

for me the issue is simple, if you are the bigger man you hand over the win and let your team mate win the championship, no ifs, no buts.

you kids should read up on gillies villeneuve, he knew how to treat his team mate in this sort of situaton

#22 Nivra

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 21:46

He'll also be rated as a bit of an arsehole who wouldn't do what was best for the team. And thats not going to impress the likes of McLaren or Ferrari, not to mention the team he currently drives for.

Or maybe Mclaren & Ferrari might rate him even higher as the man 'refuses to get beaten' by his team-mate... who crashed himself behind Alonso with an a*hole mistake all by himself.

It's not for Vettel to solve Mr.Webber's self-inflicted issues. Mark Webber has not been good enough compared to Vettel's superior qualifying and race pace for 6 races running. That's just not good enough from Webber himself... now you expect & curse that Vettel should help him out.

Why should Vettel even bother to help his own championship rival with a chance to squarely beat him in Abu Dhabi. If you expect MW to win the championship, he might as well get his act together and beat Vettel on track... Man to Man!!

Or are you suggesting Mark Webber is not Man enough to beat both Alonso & Vettel... hence automatically becoming a World Champion. Why the hell should he get help if he can't beat Alonso, while driving the fastest & most reliable car of the year... & one of the fastest F1 car ever made.

P.S.- If Vettel lets him pass in Abu Dhabi.. I would still rate Webber as a worthy champion. Webber would deserve the championship & Vettel would still be regarded as a brilliant driver & an asset to any team.
Trust me, Mclaren & Ferrari are eyeing him... if not in their own team, then as an extremely formidable rival to their own drivers.

#23 Sausage

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 21:57

No, but what is tricky for Vettel is that at any moment even if it where Vettel>Webber>Alonso , if Alonso's Ferrari came down with a dead engine he could have given the championship away to Webber if they swapped before. Even on the last lap there is no way to be sure Alonso would finish before crossing the line. Thinking in un-miracles though he'll move, you heard RB and he heard them too, they are building the team around him and they have some of the best people on board for the coming years to win plenty more.

#24 Ricardo F1

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 22:03

troggy ifs and buts are all you have try using some real facts not what ifs
Or is that too simple.

Numbers obscure reality. Watching helps.

Vettel should do a Rubens. :)

Edited by Ricardo F1, 08 November 2010 - 22:04.


#25 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 22:17

In some respects a forgone conclusion. Red Bull have favored Vttl over mark all year, but Mark still has the best hane for Red Bull to win the WDC. If they had given Mark equal opportunity he would be in a FAR btter position.
This season Massa has pulled over for Alonso and Red Bull have hamstrung their most consistent performer. Really Red Bull could have won both titles by now if the team and Vettel had played as a team.Any chance Vettel had was thrown away with crashes or broken equipment. And yes Mark has crashed too but less expensivly points wise, and he has not run into his team mate either.
One thinks that if young Seb tries to play rough in the last race he may get unloaded by Mark, but even that is giving the points too Ferrari.

#26 KateLM

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 22:42

Or maybe Mclaren & Ferrari might rate him even higher as the man 'refuses to get beaten' by his team-mate... who crashed himself behind Alonso with an a*hole mistake all by himself.

No, they would rate him as a driver who sees himself as bigger than the team. And neither want that attribute, especially Ferrari. Even Alonso knows that he isn't bigger than Ferrari.

#27 mtknot

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 22:50

Red Bull has already clinched the constructors title, so from a commercial perspective it doesn't really matter where Webber or Vettel come in the Driver's championship because the money comes from the Constructor's title, and not the relatively small payouts that the drivers receive for their driver's championship.

This explains why Red Bull are just going to let them race, and I think that they are aware that any real team orders would have ramifications for their brand in general, so again from a commercial side they will not do it.

#28 Ricardo F1

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 22:56

In some respects a forgone conclusion. Red Bull have favored Vttl over mark all year

ONCE

And gave him a cracked chassis for what, three races?

Edited by Ricardo F1, 08 November 2010 - 22:57.


#29 Mandzipop

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 23:20

I've just mentioned this on the Ferrari thread. On paper, the Ferrari should be on similar race-pace to the Red Bull in Abu Dhabi. If that is the case, Webber has to get pole, otherwise he has a problem. They can only switch Vettel and Webber if there is a sufficient gap between Webber and Alonso. This is assuming Vettel gets pole and Webber ends up 2nd and Alonso 3rd on the final lap. If Alonso is too close to Webber, they cant switch them because Vettel may lose the place to Alonso and would make it pointless. If Alonso is right up Webbers gearbox, then Vettel cant let Webber pass. The engine situation could play into Alonso's hands. We know that Vettel will not concede until the last lap of the race. Ferrari know this. All they need to do is ensure that Alonso is too close to Webber to allow the switch, just in case Alonso gets past Vettel. Vettel would be in a situation to prevent them from doing the switch. Vettel only has to put himself in the position that he has shot his tyres on the penultimate lap by doing fastest lap after fastest lap. Doing that would mean his tyres are shot and the data would be there to prove it. Back Webber into Alonso sufficiently and they cant switch.

If I was Vettel in that situation, that is what I would do. I would probably be happier to lose to Alonso than Webber and get 2nd in the championship. I would not be surprised if Vettel did that. It stops him from being the bad guy for not letting his teammate through and means that he comes 2nd in the WDC.

#30 J2NH

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 23:20

Neither Webber or Vettel would be in this position if it were not for Team Red Bull. Who knows what he will do but respect for the team should come before personal honor for Vettel. WCC brings the cash to the team but we all know that having both tittles in there pocket would be huge for Red Bull.

#31 krapmeister

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 02:35

If you want to talk about honour, let's talk about the 2010 Turkish GP, where Vettel ran his team-mate off the track in an overly zealous overtaking move. Mark lost 10 points that day due to Seb's actions. Those 10 points would put him in front of Alonso and in need of no assistance from Seb on Sunday.

Let's talk about the fact that on many an occasion this year Mark Webber has dutifully turned down his engine and ran in a procession behind his team-mate, despite having better race pace (Malaysia, Suzuka) something Vettel refused to do in Turkey despite the two being very evenly matched in pace.

Let's talk about Canada, where Webber was instructed to turn the engine down and finish behind Seb despite the fact Seb was nursing his car home with gearbox issues.

Let's talk about Monza, where Vettel was given a better pit strategy by the team and ended up in front of Webber in the final positions, despite having been outqualified and outpaced in the race by him.

Given the number of points Mark Webber has conceded to Sebastian Vettel through team orders this year, I hardly see how Vettel could cry foul when asked to deliver the WDC to the team if such a situation was to arise. He has cost him plenty, he could do with giving a few back.


:up:

Mark's done plenty enough for RBR/Vettel to justify Seb moving over if the situation arises...

And gave him a cracked chassis for what, three races?


Dear lord... 3 races is it? I thought it was only Barcelona and Monaco - you know... the ones where Mark kicked his arse?

I notice you fail to mention the dodgy chassis that Mark recieved for Singapore...

Edited by krapmeister, 09 November 2010 - 02:38.


#32 Eff One 2002

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 02:36

If you want to talk about honour, let's talk about the 2010 Turkish GP, where Vettel ran his team-mate off the track in an overly zealous overtaking move. Mark lost 10 points that day due to Seb's actions. Those 10 points would put him in front of Alonso and in need of no assistance from Seb on Sunday.

Let's talk about the fact that on many an occasion this year Mark Webber has dutifully turned down his engine and ran in a procession behind his team-mate, despite having better race pace (Malaysia, Suzuka) something Vettel refused to do in Turkey despite the two being very evenly matched in pace.

Let's talk about Canada, where Webber was instructed to turn the engine down and finish behind Seb despite the fact Seb was nursing his car home with gearbox issues.

Let's talk about Monza, where Vettel was given a better pit strategy by the team and ended up in front of Webber in the final positions, despite having been outqualified and outpaced in the race by him.

Given the number of points Mark Webber has conceded to Sebastian Vettel through team orders this year, I hardly see how Vettel could cry foul when asked to deliver the WDC to the team if such a situation was to arise. He has cost him plenty, he could do with giving a few back.


Posted Image Well said.

#33 DILLIGAF

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 02:44

ONCE

And gave him a cracked chassis for what, three races?


And gave Mark a dud chassis in Singapore & Suzuka that had to be sent back to Milton Keynes to be sorted out. It works both ways mate.

#34 JosTheBoss

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 02:55

What's with all these loaded topics on Autosport out to somehow discredit Mark Webber?

Vettel drives for the TEAM known as Red Bull Racing. Titles are won or lost as a TEAM. If Vettel has to pull over to let Mark through so that the TEAM can claim the WDC as well as the WCC, the first person to thank him will be Mark Webber.

There are two sides to the garage and each side wants to be the dominant side, but it's better one side wins than a disgruntled driver gifting the win to someone down the pitlane because he's got the sulks.

Edited by JosTheBoss, 09 November 2010 - 02:55.


#35 DILLIGAF

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 03:00

Neither Webber or Vettel would be in this position if it were not for Team Red Bull.


Agree. Red Bulls management has been appalling at times & it's a shame that Vettel has now been put in a very tough position where he's the person who may have to decide the WDC outcome.

I'd love Alonso or Webber to win the title. But if Webber wins it i'd prefer he does so by winning the race & hoping Fred comes 3rd or worse, rather than Seb move over for him.

But Vettel would be crazy to allow Alonso to win the WDC if he has the chance to help his teammate win it imo.

Edited by DILLIGAF, 09 November 2010 - 03:05.


#36 Ian G

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 03:45

No matter which scenario eventually plays out i would be fitting bumper bars to the RB cars especially a front one to Mark's.

#37 cheapracer

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 03:53

So if SV's engine hadn't blown up a couple of weeks ago then he would have driven better than MW this season?

Wow, it's all so simple. :up:


Maybe Vettle is simply harder on his car which makes Webber a better while maybe not being a faster driver.


#38 DILLIGAF

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 04:12

Maybe Vettle is simply harder on his car which makes Webber a better while maybe not being a faster driver.


Exactly. We can argue all the "ifs" & "buts" till the cows come home. In the end it's the points that count.

#39 unoc

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 05:08

For all the vettel engine blows adn reliability he has finished both season at RBR limping home.

And why would he want teammate to the WDC in 2010 on his CV?

2 reasons...

1) Because his other choice is... 'Refused to give way and cost team the ability to have both WCC and WDC on the wall'
2) Because he isn't a random shmow. All his employers know exactly what has happened and can go through each race. He isn't about to behired by someone who doesn't have an incling about this season. Yes, it could look bad it was on my CV because no employer I go to is going to know what I did previously. Even if he goes to McLaren or Ferrari they know what happened and will undoubtly prefer (especially ferrari) a driver who gets teh team results over a driver who prefers to have an extra win and see the team without another WDC.

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#40 angularacceleration

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 06:16

If you want to talk about honour, let's talk about the 2010 Turkish GP, where Vettel ran his team-mate off the track in an overly zealous overtaking move. Mark lost 10 points that day due to Seb's actions. Those 10 points would put him in front of Alonso and in need of no assistance from Seb on Sunday.

Let's talk about the fact that on many an occasion this year Mark Webber has dutifully turned down his engine and ran in a procession behind his team-mate, despite having better race pace (Malaysia, Suzuka) something Vettel refused to do in Turkey despite the two being very evenly matched in pace.

Let's talk about Canada, where Webber was instructed to turn the engine down and finish behind Seb despite the fact Seb was nursing his car home with gearbox issues.

Let's talk about Monza, where Vettel was given a better pit strategy by the team and ended up in front of Webber in the final positions, despite having been outqualified and outpaced in the race by him.

Given the number of points Mark Webber has conceded to Sebastian Vettel through team orders this year, I hardly see how Vettel could cry foul when asked to deliver the WDC to the team if such a situation was to arise. He has cost him plenty, he could do with giving a few back.

:up:

OP is obviously a Vettel fanboy. Come the last lap if it's 1. VET 2. WEB 3. ALO; Vettel will move over just as Webber would if the situations were reversed and just as any driver would. It isn't about statistics, it's about giving the team the championship (most seasons are recognised by the WDC not the WCC). Hell if I were an engineer at RBR I'd be pissed if he didn't move over. Two championships are better than one.

#41 Nivra

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 06:51

:up:

OP is obviously a Vettel fanboy. Come the last lap if it's 1. VET 2. WEB 3. ALO; Vettel will move over just as Webber would if the situations were reversed and just as any driver would. It isn't about statistics, it's about giving the team the championship (most seasons are recognised by the WDC not the WCC). Hell if I were an engineer at RBR I'd be pissed if he didn't move over. Two championships are better than one.

Fanboy or not... it's pathetic to see how this forum is filled with Hypocrites who now all of a sudden think 'Team-Orders' and 'Result Manipulation' is part of racing.

And it's also pathetic to see how desperately a few media & MW Fans, who were abusing and cursing Vettel since Turkey... now wants his 'HELP'! :rotfl: :down:

P.S- Maybe the realization has set in that Mark Webber is not good enough to beat Vettel & Alonso fairly on track, driving the fastest car on the grid. Sebastian Vettel does not owe anything to Mark Webber at all... especially considering they have been constantly at war.

It's like America asking Russia for help during the cold war :rotfl:

#42 sanjiro

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 06:57

P.S- Maybe the realization has set in that Mark Webber is not good enough to beat Vettel & Alonso fairly on track, driving the fastest car on the grid. Sebastian Vettel does not owe anything to Mark Webber at all... especially considering they have been constantly at war.



So you think MW is not good enough to beat SV without team orders and yet SV has ALREADY had team orders used to assist him.
Its nice to have selective memory but if you do...dont post it on a forum.

P.S. SV will NOT be letting MW through on the fist lap the 31st lap or even the last lap
DM has come out and said he wants nothing to do with it...now that it has failed to give SV the lead

#43 Nivra

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 06:58

For all the vettel engine blows adn reliability he has finished both season at RBR limping home.

And why would he want teammate to the WDC in 2010 on his CV?

2 reasons...

1) Because his other choice is... 'Refused to give way and cost team the ability to have both WCC and WDC on the wall'
2) Because he isn't a random shmow. All his employers know exactly what has happened and can go through each race. He isn't about to behired by someone who doesn't have an incling about this season. Yes, it could look bad it was on my CV because no employer I go to is going to know what I did previously. Even if he goes to McLaren or Ferrari they know what happened and will undoubtly prefer (especially ferrari) a driver who gets teh team results over a driver who prefers to have an extra win and see the team without another WDC.

or this-
1) Because his other choice is... 'Refused to give way and cost Mark Webber the ability to win WDC because Mr.Webber was not good enough to 'Beat' him & Alonso on track, hence deserving loser for WDC2010'.

P.S- I still think Mark Webber is good enough to up his game and beat Vettel & Alonso in Abu Dhabi! But if he is unable to on talent alone, then I don't think that blame should be laid down on Vettel's shoulders. Why should he be blamed... Webber is driving the same 'Fast' car... he needs to win... end of story for all i guess.

Edited by Nivra, 09 November 2010 - 07:09.


#44 Nivra

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 07:14

So you think MW is not good enough to beat SV without team orders and yet SV has ALREADY had team orders used to assist him.
Its nice to have selective memory but if you do...dont post it on a forum.

P.S. SV will NOT be letting MW through on the fist lap the 31st lap or even the last lap
DM has come out and said he wants nothing to do with it...now that it has failed to give SV the lead

Even if what you say is true (Turkey)... You tend to forget that...

Mark Webber did 'technically refuse' to let Vettel by during the race, hence the crash.!! Why should Vettel not do the same, or atleast have the choice of not moving over.

P.S- Another way to look at it is... if Webber/Vettel had not crashed because MW refused to listen to team-orders... Vettel & Webber both would have been ahead or closer to Alonso now.
I didn't expect MW to give way because of team order then, & don't expect Vettel to do otherwise now! Fair & Square.

Edited by Nivra, 09 November 2010 - 07:23.


#45 trogggy

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 07:15

Maybe Vettle is simply harder on his car which makes Webber a better while maybe not being a faster driver.

Sure. Maybe.
The wdc is what matters, it's points that count, etc etc yada yada.
Looking at a fight as close as Webber / Vettel, pointing at the table and exclaiming (loud voice) 'Aha, conclusive proof that the Aussie veteran has outdriven the boy-wonder' is not really on though.

#46 goldenboy

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 07:19

does vettel have to hand over the win? no. duuuh.

will he always then be remembered as being an absolute c**t if he doesn't? yes.

will he move over anyway? of course. In fact it's the honourable thing to do, not the other way around.

you dont seem to know much if you think his stocks will go up because he refuses to move over and allow webber and RB to win WDC when he is unable to.

Edited by ForeverF1, 09 November 2010 - 07:23.
Removed "another dumb thread by nivra which is discovered to be yet another thinly veiled swipe at webber once reading the opening post. what is your problem?" Leave out the personal attacks.


#47 unoc

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 07:26

That doesn't even make sense...why has it suddenly become a WDC is for a driver and not a team and teammates wont help?

Do you think of Massa as a lesser driver for letting raikkonen win teh Brazillian GP in 2007? I don't, I think that he was a teamplayer and knew that although he couldn't win it, his team had a chance with this teammate and helping his teammate was the honourable thing to do.

If Vettel decides not to help I would say he loses more respect and honour as he is putting himself above the team.. Yes its called a World Drivers Championship. But you always remember Schumacher in a ferrari or bennetton, or hill in a williams. You never think... schumacher... was he driving a mclaren back then? The two go hand in hand and it's something teams win as well as the driver.

McLaren have a wall in there garage where it lists and has some fancy pictures around it of all the years they have won the WDC. If the WDC doesn't matter to teams then why would they do this? Ferrari care, otherwise they would have left massa alone and gone for the WCC, lifted massa's spirit and not cared about the WDC. but they did, and thats why they did germany


And anyway, you statement makes no sense, because by allowing alonso to win it, (hence giving vettel a king maker moral superiality role which I don't think he should have), you are saying he would chose for alonso to win it due to the 7 point gained by a controversial team order in the middle of teh season instead of the 7 points due to teams making expected shuffeling of drivers in order to profit?


Your saying that Vettel would rather give it to ferrari than his own team? I know for sure if he did I would always respect him less than if he sacrificed a race win for the sake of his team.



Added to that, Webber has held position and finished directly behind vettel before, I honestly think it would be very self centered of vettel to take the approach of 'if I can't have it, then I wont try for my teammate to get it'.


I think webber can definately do it. On Spain/monaco/silverstone form, and to an extent the racecraft of hungary, we know he can pull it off. But in the event that he takes it cautiously, vettel shouldn't be hastelling him as they drive for teh same team.


No one is putting the blame on vettel's shoulders.

#48 sanjiro

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 07:28

Even if what you say is true (Turkey)... You tend to forget that...

Mark Webber did 'technically refuse' to let Vettel by during the race, hence the crash.!! Why should Vettel not do the same, or atleast have the choice of not moving over.



Turkey is the one that SV fans cant avoid because it made headlines
btw MW didnt refuse to let SV through he just didnt hand it to him on a platter.
If SV is UNABLE to make a pass on a driver who has been hobbled by his team to make that pass possible then its hardly MW fault

However there have been at least 2 other races where MW has been given the hold position order when he has demonstrated superior pace (even when SV has been nursing a damaged car RBR have instructed MW not to pass)

These are ALL team orders.
IN NOT ONE CASE this year have RBR given SV the hold position instruction.

As for SV moving over...he does have the choice
The team have made it very clear that they DONT want him to move over for MW.
That instruction in RBR is a one way street

Edited by sanjiro, 09 November 2010 - 07:30.


#49 DILLIGAF

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 07:30

Even if what you say is true (Turkey)... You tend to forget that...

Mark Webber did 'technically refuse' to let Vettel by during the race, hence the crash.!! Why should Vettel not do the same, or atleast have the choice of not moving over.

P.S- Another way to look at it is... if Webber/Vettel had not crashed because MW refused to listen to team-orders... Vettel & Webber both would have been ahead or closer to Alonso now.
I didn't expect MW to give way because of team order then, & don't expect Vettel to do otherwise now! Fair & Square.


Bit hard to refuse team orders when none were given to him. You'll find that his race engineer didn't pass on any team orders in Turkey. He was never told to let Seb through.

Edited by DILLIGAF, 09 November 2010 - 07:32.


#50 Callahan

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 08:08

ONCE

And gave him a cracked chassis for what, three races?

:rotfl: :rotfl: Still banging on about the cracked chassis mate. Trust me, that chassis was never cracked. It's the biggest con job in history. The only thing cracking was Seb, especially after he was well and truly hosed at Monaco. If there hadn't been any pace cars, Mark would have won by half a lap. After Monaco Red Bull turned up the wick on the favouritism thing coz they could sense Seb was losing it mentally. But to his credit he has driven beautifully lately and it would not worry me that much if he won the title.