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Is it a Matter of Honour for Vettel?


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#51 JosTheBoss

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 08:23

The longer one gets into this thread, the more obvious the OP's intention in starting it becomes.

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#52 Nivra

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 09:14

Bit hard to refuse team orders when none were given to him. You'll find that his race engineer didn't pass on any team orders in Turkey. He was never told to let Seb through.

No I didn't say that MW received any order at all... but was replying to a presumption made in the post by Sanjiro claiming that "SV has ALREADY had team orders used to assist him."

... hence my reply started with the Following:- ' Even if what you say is true (Turkey).. '.

I replied saying 'If' Team-Order was already used in Turkey by Red Bull for whatever reason, then Mark Webber didn't listen to the Team, did he??

So since MW didn't want to play the team player then, & he had every right to refuse... then why should Vettel not do the same now.. i.e. refuse Team-Orders to benefit another competitor. Just because Mark Webber is his team-mate, it doesn't mean Vettel must go to bed with him too.


#53 Paul Prost

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 09:17

Something to consider. It's highly likely that the Red Bull employee bonus system involves additional rewards for winning championships.

If Vettel is in the position to move over for Webber, and he doesn't...and thereby costs every Red Bull employee a few thousand pounds or so in bonus money.... do you think he'll be a popular person at the Milton Keynes factory?

Edited by Paul Prost, 09 November 2010 - 09:18.


#54 Nivra

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 09:18

The longer one gets into this thread, the more obvious the OP's intention in starting it becomes.

The longer the thread goes on... the more the Hypocrites are coming out.

Aren't these the same people cursing RedBull for applying Team-Orders and how unfair it was to rob a fair competition....
....But now, all of a sudden, these same people are cursing RedBull for not applying team-orders ... :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

P.S- Why is it so impossible for Mark Webber to beat Vettel fairly on track, that Team-orders must come into play! Is that so hard all of a sudden... because I remember mid-season the same people stating that Mark Webber was a Superior driver to S Vettel... so if he is superior, he will beat Vettel automatically! Or are people losing confidence in Webber's ability to compete just because he's gotten beaten 6 races running.

I am hoping Webber beats Vettel purely on merit come Abu Dhabi... hence winning with great dignity and respect & without any outside help. :up:
I'm not against Webber, just against getting undeserved help

Edited by Nivra, 09 November 2010 - 09:28.


#55 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 09:22

goingthedistance :up:

Vettel has proven impetuous and arrogant time and again this year, no doubt fuelled by his own knowledge that the team are behind him long term. Turkey was the clearest manifestation of this.


When Vettel took Webber out for the first time in Fuji '07 I felt genuinely sorry for him, almost as much as Mark, for taking out his sister team mate whilst running in his best position for the team. Webber was the established senior Red Bull driver then and took it on the chin whilst Vettel cried for forgiveness in the pits. Oh how the times changed. Fast forward to Turkey '10 and look at Vettel's 'looney' hand gestures when it was actually all his fault. Can't stand the kid now. Would rather Alonso won than him this weekend.

#56 Callahan

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 09:38

goingthedistance :up:

Vettel has proven impetuous and arrogant time and again this year, no doubt fuelled by his own knowledge that the team are behind him long term. Turkey was the clearest manifestation of this.


When Vettel took Webber out for the first time in Fuji '07 I felt genuinely sorry for him, almost as much as Mark, for taking out his sister team mate whilst running in his best position for the team. Webber was the established senior Red Bull driver then and took it on the chin whilst Vettel cried for forgiveness in the pits. Oh how the times changed. Fast forward to Turkey '10 and look at Vettel's 'looney' hand gestures when it was actually all his fault. Can't stand the kid now. Would rather Alonso won than him this weekend.

Red Bull have been trying to manipulate a championship for Seb since the start of the season, so how ironic would it be if Seb moved over for Mark. Sew the wind and reap the whirlwind.

#57 iotar

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 09:41

Even if what you say is true (Turkey)... You tend to forget that...

Mark Webber did 'technically refuse' to let Vettel by during the race, hence the crash.!! Why should Vettel not do the same, or atleast have the choice of not moving over.

Of course it didn't happen.

But if it happened:
Hey, maybe it was all matter of !!HONOUR!! then?
Who's the hypocrite now, huh?


#58 trogggy

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 09:45

I am hoping Webber beats Vettel purely on merit come Abu Dhabi... hence winning with great dignity and respect & without any outside help. :up:
I'm not against Webber, just against getting undeserved help

Maybe you should do a poll to see how many people believe the above. :)

#59 Nivra

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 09:51

Of course it didn't happen.

But if it happened:
Hey, maybe it was all matter of !!HONOUR!! then?
Who's the hypocrite now, huh?

What hypocrite are you talking about! :|

Did I say Mark Webber was wrong in doing so?? ):

Mark Webber had every right to 'refuse' any favoritism shown by RedBull towards Vettel. He, as a driver, was 'absolutely correct' for not letting Vettel pass him in Turkey... team order or not!! He is a championship contender and has driven brilliantly and beaten the likes of Hamilton, Alonso & Vettel on the race track fairly and with great skills.

Applying the same principles... all I'm saying is Vettel too has 'every right' to refuse team-orders as an F1 Driver. Anyways, I'd rather see Webber winning it fairly & with skills... & he has shown he can do it before. :up:

Edited by Nivra, 09 November 2010 - 09:53.


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#60 DILLIGAF

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 09:54

No I didn't say that MW received any order at all... but was replying to a presumption made in the post by Sanjiro claiming that "SV has ALREADY had team orders used to assist him."

... hence my reply started with the Following:- ' Even if what you say is true (Turkey).. '.

I replied saying 'If' Team-Order was already used in Turkey by Red Bull for whatever reason, then Mark Webber didn't listen to the Team, did he??

So since MW didn't want to play the team player then, & he had every right to refuse... then why should Vettel not do the same now.. i.e. refuse Team-Orders to benefit another competitor. Just because Mark Webber is his team-mate, it doesn't mean Vettel must go to bed with him too.


That is the most illogical post i've read here. How can you possibly come to the conclusion that Webber would have refused to do the team thing based on the word "if". He was not given & has not been given that type of order yet you want people to believe he defied the team & therefore Vettel could or should do the same?

Do you not see how ludicrous that arguement looks & sounds?

Edited by DILLIGAF, 09 November 2010 - 09:55.


#61 Callahan

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 10:00

That is the most illogical post i've read here. How can you possibly come to the conclusion that Webber would have refused to do the team thing based on the word "if". He was not given & has not been given that type of order yet you want people to believe he defied the team & therefore Vettel could or should do the same?

Do you not see how ludicrous that arguement looks & sounds?

Some blokes on here can't see the forest for the trees mate. Sigh
:up:

#62 Nivra

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 10:03

Maybe you should do a poll to see how many people believe the above. :)

I don't need to!!
The response coming around here makes me think no one, including his fans, believe that Mark Webber will out-qualify and out-race Vettel in Abu Dhabi... hence winning the WDC as a great sportsman.

It's really sad, because as far I have seen, Webber is good enough to Win it on his own...
but his fans are hell bent on only cursing Vettel & RedBull Team-Order for (Brazil!!) & now Abu Dhabi to help their man..... Depressing= :cry:

P.S- where has these people's "Fair-Play" policy gone, which was in full cry Mid-Season. But now that their man needs help, they think Vettel & RedBull are dick for not helping out.. :rotfl:

Team-Orders are a load of BullSh!t- Webber must win it on his own, & I'm hoping he can and win it over Alonso for the same reason... Team-Orders.

Edited by Nivra, 09 November 2010 - 10:09.


#63 Nivra

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 10:07

That is the most illogical post i've read here. How can you possibly come to the conclusion that Webber would have refused to do the team thing based on the word "if". He was not given & has not been given that type of order yet you want people to believe he defied the team & therefore Vettel could or should do the same?

Do you not see how ludicrous that arguement looks & sounds?


Please read carefully to the entire post, from the reply I made to Sanjiro's post!

... whichever way you put it... Vettel as an F1 driver... has every right not to let Webber pass him in Abu Dhabi! Vettel is Not Santa Claus handing out gifts to his team-mate & rival!!.

Also, Webber is good enough to win on his own.. which is better than getting help!

Edited by Nivra, 09 November 2010 - 10:08.


#64 trogggy

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 10:10

I don't need to!!
The response coming around here makes me think no one, including his fans, believe that Mark Webber will out-qualify and out-race Vettel in Abu Dhabi... hence winning the WDC as a great sportsman.

It's really sad, because as far I have seen, Webber is good enough to Win it on his own...
but his fans are hell bent on only cursing Vettel & RedBull Team-Order for Abu Dhabi to help their man..... Depressing= :cry:

P.S- where has these people's "Fair-Play" policy gone, which was in full cry Mid-Season. But now that their man needs help, they think Vettel & RedBull are dick for not helping out.. :rotfl:

Team-Orders are a load of BullSh!t- Webber must win it on his own, & I'm hoping he can and win it over Alonso for the same reason... Team-Orders.

What has any of that got to do with whether people believe you'd like to see Webber win?


#65 unoc

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 10:13

I don't need to!!
The response coming around here makes me think no one, including his fans, believe that Mark Webber will out-qualify and out-race Vettel in Abu Dhabi... hence winning the WDC as a great sportsman.

It's really sad, because as far I have seen, Webber is good enough to Win it on his own...
but his fans are hell bent on only cursing Vettel & RedBull Team-Order for (Brazil!!) & now Abu Dhabi to help their man..... Depressing= :cry:

P.S- where has these people's "Fair-Play" policy gone, which was in full cry Mid-Season. But now that their man needs help, they think Vettel & RedBull are dick for not helping out.. :rotfl:

Team-Orders are a load of BullSh!t- Webber must win it on his own, & I'm hoping he can and win it over Alonso for the same reason... Team-Orders.




The only reason why were discussing hsould vettel let webber through is because if webber is ahead there is nothing to talk about. This is a discussion board. We need discussion.

I think there is definately a chance webber will be ahead, but here is how the conversation will pan out.



Post 1: If red bull are running 1-2 webber vettel. Webber will win the title no matter wehere alonso is. Hamilton might be 3rd because he was good lsat year, but doesn't have the car this year.
Post 2: I just checked the maths and found the exact same thing! Webber will win if he is leading 1-2 vettel.
Post 3: Would vettel overtake webber to stop a redbull wdc? and let alonso have it? I don't think so, how about you?
Post 4: Me neither, they would just hold formation like they have done previously.


And that's the entire discussion. No sides, It's pertty bloody clear that if webber is leading vettel 1-2, then webber will win.

#66 DILLIGAF

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 10:18

It's really sad, because as far I have seen, Webber is good enough to Win it on his own...
but his fans are hell bent on only cursing Vettel & RedBull Team-Order for (Brazil!!) & now Abu Dhabi to help their man..... Depressing= :cry:


Can you point out the posts of all these Webber fans supposedly hell bent on cursing Vettel?

You now say Webber is good enough to win on his own? :rotfl: After all the crap you've been posting about him? :rotfl:


#67 Nivra

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 10:27

The only reason why were discussing hsould vettel let webber through is because if webber is ahead there is nothing to talk about. This is a discussion board. We need discussion.

I think there is definately a chance webber will be ahead, but here is how the conversation will pan out.



Post 1: If red bull are running 1-2 webber vettel. Webber will win the title no matter wehere alonso is. Hamilton might be 3rd because he was good lsat year, but doesn't have the car this year.
Post 2: I just checked the maths and found the exact same thing! Webber will win if he is leading 1-2 vettel.
Post 3: Would vettel overtake webber to stop a redbull wdc? and let alonso have it? I don't think so, how about you?
Post 4: Me neither, they would just hold formation like they have done previously.


And that's the entire discussion. No sides, It's pertty bloody clear that if webber is leading vettel 1-2, then webber will win.

Thank God... Exactly! :up:

Just like Alonso believes he needs a 2nd place to win the WDC... I think so does Webber, who must rely on his talent & win in Abu Dhabi!

Considering how things have been this year between Webber & Vettel... the last thing he should expect is getting outside help.
And that was my point... If Vettel is ahead of Webber in Abu Dhabi, it will be entirely upto Vettel himself to decide what to do.

If he refuses to let Webber pass, he will have very valid reasons to do so.. Consider the Following..
IF-- Vettel Win/ MW 2/ Alo 3rd=
1-Alonso - Winner Wdc
2- Vettel- 256 / 5 Wins
3-Webbo- 256 / 4 Wins

Hence... Vettel would be 'Higher' than Webber in the Final Standings....
which in turn means that 'He Didn't Get Beaten by his Team-Mate in 2010 Season'.

-Would Vettel and His side of the garage want to be on the losing side of the Team-Mate Battles... i don't think so!
So yeah... it's a difficult situation for Vettel.. but I think Mark should do the job himself, instead of asking for Team-Orders or Help in Abu Dhabi. If he loses the championship, so be it.

Edited by Nivra, 09 November 2010 - 10:29.


#68 DILLIGAF

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 10:33

Consider the Following..

IF-- Vettel Win/ MW 2/ Alo 3rd=
1-Alonso - Winner Wdc
2- Vettel- 256 / 5 Wins
3-Webbo- 256 / 4 Wins

Hence... Vettel would be 'Higher' than Webber in the Final Standings....
which in turn means that 'He Didn't Get Beaten by his Team-Mate in 2010 Season'.
-


Which in the grand scheme of things means absolutely jack sh^t mate.

Being higher in the standings is preferable to your team winning both titles?




#69 TIFOlonSO

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 10:37

There's clearly a difference in the 'quality' of team orders at Ferrari and Red Bull:

Ferrari will issue (and did) team orders for the driver that leads the championship at the good opportunity (for instance they didn't issue any team orders at Australia).

Red Bull starts the year favoring Vettel and issue team orders (disguised) as soon as they want (Austria, Silverstone) and only issue team orders that favor the other driver as last resource (Abu Dhabi). Hopefully this will cost them the championship.


#70 Nivra

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 10:38

Good grief :eek:

Anyway... Vettel will move over if that is what it takes for Mark to win the WDC but he will not do it as a favour to Mark, he does it for Red Bull :up:

DM has already given him free hands and hence no team orders are necessary. If he gives Mark way in Abu Dhabi then it's out of respect for his employer and for all the personnel working so hard for it.

But not as a personal favour to Mark, no way :lol:

Mark again, would he do the same to Vettel? I doubt it. That's the difference between those two.

:up: :up:

The irony around here is that some people are refusing to give Sebastian Vettel credit for this... infact cursing him while asking for his help :rotfl:

Just like Vettel didn't 'deserve' to benefit from Webber mid-season due to some weird team policy...
...Mark Webber too doesn't deserve to benefit from Vettel applying the same team policy in the end of the season.

P.S- the sad part is, If Vettel lets Webber pass, Webbo's fan will still be cursing Vettel.. infact even claim Webber is a superior driver pointing out to the standings. Just hoping Vettel doesn't give these guys the opportunity to 'Gloat'!!

#71 KateLM

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 10:40

:up: :up:

The irony around here is that some people are refusing to give Sebastian Vettel credit for this... infact cursing him while asking for his help :rotfl:

Just like Vettel didn't 'deserve' to benefit from Webber mid-season due to some weird team policy...
...Mark Webber too doesn't deserve to benefit from Vettel applying the same team policy in the end of the season.

P.S- the sad part is, If Vettel lets Webber pass, Webbo's fan will still be cursing Vettel.. infact even claim Webber is a superior driver pointing out to the standings. Just hoping Vettel doesn't give these guys the opportunity to 'Gloat'!!

If you can't see the difference between team orders midway through the season when both drivers still have a mathematical chance and the last race when one driver finds that he can't do it, then there is little point trying to explain it to you.


#72 Nivra

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 10:43

Which in the grand scheme of things means absolutely jack sh^t mate.

Being higher in the standings is preferable to your team winning both titles?

No it isn't!!

Getting Beaten by your own team-mate is worse! Pick up any F1 books written by many drivers... or simply ask you neighbor!

Infact- Webber becoming World Champion means "JackSh!it" to Vettel... why should he even bother if Webber is not good enough to beat him fairly on track. Why should Vettel even bloody care. Webber & his fans can sulk all they like... Vettel wouldn't care a damn or shed a tear. He's 23... & he's the future, whether you like him or not.

Edited by Nivra, 09 November 2010 - 10:44.


#73 One

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 10:49

I think Vettel made too much stupid mistakes this year. With this reason, I do think that Vettel does not deserve the WDC. He could have been the champion long ago if he were ale to race in much more intelligent and clam manner. Webber on the contrary raced with at most focus and surprised many. He is worth WDC to my opinion.

Vettel is younger, so he will have multiple chances for the championship for sure. He must be much more focused than he was this year to be able to beat his opponents, whether his own team mate or not.

What is going on at the moment at Red Bull to MHO is a disgrace. Red Bull is penalizing the very driver who surprised themselves the most this year. Nobody expected Webber to do this well. you can read this by simply going back any Journal on Formula One Season 2010. Red Bull to my opinion is artificially terming the excellent performance of their race driver. It is the Negative Doping, poisoning, that Russel Crow acted in the last scene of that "Gradiator" film.

Mobs Loves Webber. Vettel to Hell.


#74 Callahan

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 10:49

Good grief :eek:

Anyway... Vettel will move over if that is what it takes for Mark to win the WDC but he will not do it as a favour to Mark, he does it for Red Bull :up:

DM has already given him free hands and hence no team orders are necessary. If he gives Mark way in Abu Dhabi then it's out of respect for his employer and for all the personnel working so hard for it.

But not as a personal favour to Mark, no way :lol:

Mark again, would he do the same to Vettel? I doubt it. That's the difference between those two.

WRONG. Mark is great mates with the guys on the floor and knows how much it means to them. He would move over if it meant RBR would win a WDC, no doubt what so ever.

#75 One

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 10:54

WRONG. Mark is great mates with the guys on the floor and knows how much it means to them. He would move over if it meant RBR would win a WDC, no doubt what so ever.


I do think that Mark will do help Vettel if he was in the other shoe.

#76 sanjiro

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 10:56

RBR will NOT issue team orders for SV to let MW through

HOWEVER

You guys are all missing the team orders THAT WILL BE ISSUED
If MW is 1st and SV 2nd with FA < 4th or even OUT...WE WILL SEE RBR TEAM ORDERS.

To the people suggesting MW would not follow team order... he has already on 3 occasions this year (not Turkey that was an attempt to change the result through trickery)
Team orders dont have to be let driver A get past driver B and in the cas of RBR 3 times this year they have given MW the HOLD station order when he was faster and able to pass SV
You all choose to ignore that.

Here is another one for you...
MW 1st SV 2nd FA 3rd....and SV slows to let FA through ....this is about as valid an assessment of SVs personality, as many of you are making of MW

#77 DILLIGAF

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 11:08

Getting Beaten by your own team-mate is worse! Pick up any F1 books written by many drivers... or simply ask you neighbor!


Have you actually read any F1 history books Nivra? If you had you'd know that saying it's worse to lose to you teammate than help him win the title is bullshit.

Here's a post from another thread quoting a little bit of that F1 history you think you know about:

People really should know a litle more about what FORMULA 1 is.

I'll quote Sir Stirling Moss

But of course I never won the title; I finished second four times, lost by a couple of points one year and by one the next, all for different reasons. The closest I came was in 1958 when I entered the final grand prix in Morocco needing to win, secure the fastest lap and have Mike Hawthorn finish lower than second.

I went there knowing exactly what I needed to do and crossed the line with the win and the fastest lap, with Mike back in third. Of course Mike's Ferrari team-mate Phil Hill did the correct thing and let Mike through to take second, allowing him to win the title by a single point. Incidentally, there was never any ill feeling about that from either side, which should also be the case if Alonso wins the title for Ferrari this year.


http://en.espnf1.com...tory/32863.html

That's F1 for you Nivra. Always has been & always will be. I suggest you do a little more reading of the history books before you post tripe.

Edited by DILLIGAF, 09 November 2010 - 11:10.


#78 PassWind

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 11:13

So you think MW is not good enough to beat SV without team orders and yet SV has ALREADY had team orders used to assist him.
Its nice to have selective memory but if you do...dont post it on a forum.

P.S. SV will NOT be letting MW through on the fist lap the 31st lap or even the last lap
DM has come out and said he wants nothing to do with it...now that it has failed to give SV the lead


In this regard I am with DM and his comments, the whole through season team order thing for Redbull is merely circumstantial speculation on part of the fans. Teams still need to manage races, if you classify them as team orders then fair enough, for me its simple race management else why even have monitored systems on the cars. The outcomes might not please certain fans because of bias but its a reality of racing as a team.

It doesn't matter that much to me if Vettel deservedly wins the next GP and Alonso still secures the WDC. Ferrari did what they did, thinking it the best way to manage their team, DM doesn't subscribe to the same preordained method of race manipulation. Management during a race for specific reasons is quite different in my view as outcomes can only be judged on probables that the team feels they are in control of. Maximizing results with the least amount of risk just makes sense in that regard. Through the season there has been an instance or two where I think the team misjudged this aspect, putting Webber in compromised positions in Australia and Turkey. Though it can be argued that with the little amount of information teams had available to them in hard data on tires etc it was to be expected that races like Melbourne were bound to happen. Ferrari in particular could be pointed out for numerous race management blunders early on in the season.

Actually manipulating the race results without any other circumstances involved is in my opinion different. I would like to see the rule removed as it is counter intuitive to team sport, but its there and how teams interpret and enforce it is clearly different across the paddock. Hence the varied opinions of team spokesman.

Lastly the destiny on track of the drivers is mainly in their hands, hence I am not going to be disappointed if the likely outcome occurs Alonso wins the WDC because Vettel doesn't move over. Webber has had ample opportunities where he didn't maximize his race results, him not winning IMO is down to him and no one else. End of the day that is what separates the WDC's and the rest.


#79 One

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 11:19

The differece is that Ferrari were not afraid to take the blame in the public, and they did. MOst importantly they did this in STYLE, IMHO.

While Red Bull does all sorts of nasty detunig of Webber's race performance, has been mentioned by some here, UNDER HIDDEN MASKS IN ANONYMITY, and this is a decent strategy, but IMHO, this is a dirrty, very dirty trick that I want any of their opponents to beat then as soon as possible.

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#80 Nivra

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 11:28

Have you actually read any F1 history books Nivra? If you had you'd know that saying it's worse to lose to you teammate than help him win the title is bullshit.

Here's a post from another thread quoting a little bit of that F1 history youthink you know about:



http://en.espnf1.com...tory/32863.html

That's F1 for you Nivra. Always has been & always will be.

And this is F1 for a few too:- Fair Play & Sportsmanship

Button: Team orders could blemish Alonso title- http://www.planetf1....-Orders-Debacle
"Fernando is an exceptional driver, but some will be disappointed with what happened at Hockenheim and question whether he deserves it or not.

"I don't know. He is a World Champion, so we will have to wait and see what happens - but I just hope he wins it by more than seven points."

Unlike Ferrari's hand they showed early on, McLaren and Red Bull have refused to play their game and instead allowed their drivers to race. After Red Bull clinched the constructors' championship on Sunday, boss Christian Horner again insisted there will be no team orders in Abu Dhabi, instead putting the onus on his drivers to resolve and potential scenarios between themselves.

Button firmly sides with Horner on the issue, believing that is the way to go in motor racing. "But I like the way Red Bull have let their drivers fight. That is the way it should be. "You fight all the way through your career to get into Formula One, to get into a good car, to win races.


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Also remember, Jenson Button is talking as the "Current World Champion"... hence is more familiar with the current environment as he's integral part of F1 Life & Teams. Unlike Ex-F1 Driver, Button lives with TV & Internet & Media world now with fans F1's most important tool to survive & get more new fans.

I'd rather be on Webber's side and follow true competition instead of 'Manipulation'. You can have your F1 the way want. Even if I don't agree, does not mean your opinion is wrong. Everyone has their own F1. :up:

Webber needs to win it with dignity applying skills, strategy & performance alone! But if he wins it because of Vettel, then he needs to forever be thankful & respectful towards Vettel as a strong sportsmen.

Edited by Nivra, 09 November 2010 - 11:33.


#81 krapmeister

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 11:31

In this regard I am with DM and his comments, the whole through season team order thing for Redbull is merely circumstantial speculation on part of the fans. Teams still need to manage races, if you classify them as team orders then fair enough, for me its simple race management else why even have monitored systems on the cars. The outcomes might not please certain fans because of bias but its a reality of racing as a team.

It doesn't matter that much to me if Vettel deservedly wins the next GP and Alonso still secures the WDC. Ferrari did what they did, thinking it the best way to manage their team, DM doesn't subscribe to the same preordained method of race manipulation. Management during a race for specific reasons is quite different in my view as outcomes can only be judged on probables that the team feels they are in control of. Maximizing results with the least amount of risk just makes sense in that regard. Through the season there has been an instance or two where I think the team misjudged this aspect, putting Webber in compromised positions in Australia and Turkey. Though it can be argued that with the little amount of information teams had available to them in hard data on tires etc it was to be expected that races like Melbourne were bound to happen. Ferrari in particular could be pointed out for numerous race management blunders early on in the season.

Actually manipulating the race results without any other circumstances involved is in my opinion different. I would like to see the rule removed as it is counter intuitive to team sport, but its there and how teams interpret and enforce it is clearly different across the paddock. Hence the varied opinions of team spokesman.

Lastly the destiny on track of the drivers is mainly in their hands, hence I am not going to be disappointed if the likely outcome occurs Alonso wins the WDC because Vettel doesn't move over. Webber has had ample opportunities where he didn't maximize his race results, him not winning IMO is down to him and no one else. End of the day that is what separates the WDC's and the rest.


True - but then you can say the same if Alonso or Vettel doesn't win either...

#82 DILLIGAF

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 11:32

Infact- Webber becoming World Champion means "JackSh!it" to Vettel... why should he even bother if Webber is not good enough to beat him fairly on track. Why should Vettel even bloody care. Webber & his fans can sulk all they like... Vettel wouldn't care a damn or shed a tear. He's 23... & he's the future, whether you like him or not.


Why should he care?

Let's consider whether your hero Kimi cared in 2008 Nivra:

Raikkonen made no secret that he let his teammate past in the interests of the team.

"I know what the team expects," the Finn said. "It is racing and I have nothing to lose or win in a way. I am driving for the team."


Keep digging mate. :lol:

Edited by DILLIGAF, 09 November 2010 - 11:34.


#83 krapmeister

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 11:34

Webber needs to win it with dignity applying skills, strategy & performance alone! But if he wins it because of Vettel, then he needs to forever be thankful & respectful towards Vettel as a strong sportsmen.


TBH if Vettel does move over for Mark should the situation arise, I can't imagine Mark being anything but thankful and respectful...

Edited by krapmeister, 09 November 2010 - 11:34.


#84 WhiteBlue

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 11:39

To the people suggesting MW would not follow team order... he has already on 3 occasions this year (not Turkey that was an attempt to change the result through trickery). Team orders dont have to be let driver A get past driver B and in the cas of RBR 3 times this year they have given MW the HOLD station order when he was faster and able to pass SV. You all choose to ignore that.

You are a bit liberal with the facts Sanjiro. The team tactic in Istanbul was clearly for the drivers not to fight for position when they are leading a race. Webber rejected and disregarded that team tactic with some disastrous consequences for the team. Nevertheless they continued to give him equal technical and sporting support as he freely admits himself. One can dispute the decision in Silverstone to give the single new wing to Vettel but the team has given a logical explanation for that and the explanation was also accepted by Webber in the end. Of course there were occasions when Red Bull issue HOLD station commands. That occurs naturally when a team has the fastest car through most of the season. IMO it is completely untrue that Webber was disadvantaged by that tactic. If you just look at the last race you see that Webber was slowed down by a water leak in his radiator. Vettel held station to avoid unnecessary stress on his machinery. The pace of the Red Bull car was still enough to keep them in front. If the situation had been reversed and Vettel had the water leak I'm sure that Webber would not have listened to any team order at all. He would have disregarded it like he did in Istanbul.


But of course I never won the title; I finished second four times, lost by a couple of points one year and by one the next, all for different reasons. The closest I came was in 1958 when I entered the final grand prix in Morocco needing to win, secure the fastest lap and have Mike Hawthorn finish lower than second.

I went there knowing exactly what I needed to do and crossed the line with the win and the fastest lap, with Mike back in third. Of course Mike's Ferrari team-mate Phil Hill did the correct thing and let Mike through to take second, allowing him to win the title by a single point. Incidentally, there was never any ill feeling about that from either side, which should also be the case if Alonso wins the title for Ferrari this year.


The Phil Hill situation in 1958 was massively different to a potential Vettel, Webber, Alonso line up at the last corner in Abu Dhabi. Phil Hill wasn't in the title fight at all. He wasn't even giving up a race win. All he sacrificed was a second place in one race. Whatever Vettel will do in that hypothetical situation next Sunday it will be honorable, even if he decides to take a win.

#85 DILLIGAF

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 11:42

You can have your F1 the way want. Even if I don't agree, does not mean your opinion is wrong. Everyone has their own F1. :up:

Webber needs to win it with dignity applying skills, strategy & performance alone! But if he wins it because of Vettel, then he needs to forever be thankful & respectful towards Vettel as a strong sportsmen.


At last we agree on something!! :up: :up:

If Seb moves over for Mark there is no doubt in my mind that Mark will be the first to thank him & be forever grateful.

#86 DILLIGAF

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 11:49

Whatever Vettel will do in that hypothetical situation next Sunday it will be honorable, even if he decides to take a win.


If at the end of the race Seb decides to take the win knowing that the win means Alonso will be the WDC, he will have sacrificed a WDC for his team in exchange for one grand prix victory. You think that is honorable?

Do you think Phil Hill would do that if he was in the exact same position as Seb?

Would Stirling Moss go for the win if he knew it would cost his team a WDC?

Would Kimi take the win knowing it would cost the team the WDC?

I don't think so.

Edited by DILLIGAF, 09 November 2010 - 11:52.


#87 sanjiro

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 11:52

You are a bit liberal with the facts Sanjiro. The team tactic in Istanbul was clearly for the drivers not to fight for position when they are leading a race. Webber rejected and disregarded that team tactic with some disastrous consequences for the team.



So wrong in so many ways.

First the team tactic was to get SV IN FRONT of MW
"not to fight for position when they are leading a race."
:stoned: :stoned: :stoned:
Exactly as you wrote....the didnt want MW to defend his position or to fight for the P1 that he had earned

They WANTED him to roll over and play SV bitch

However...
The instruction to move over and LET SV take the win was not passed on to MW and Marks engineer got into some hot water over that.

Of the 2 teams this year to use blatant team tactics to get one driver ahead of another RBR were the first.
Sadly for them in their eagerness NOT to get in trouble with the FIA as Ferrari later did
They tried to create a passing opportunity for SV at the expense of MW.

But this is not the issue
My post was in response to the accusation that MW WOULD NOT move over for SV if the positions were reversed
On this front MW has shown on several occasions that he was willing to follow team instructions and make NO ATTEMPT to pass SV even when SVs RB was on shaky ground and MW had more than enough pace to take him.

Personally... I only want to see 2 posible outcomes from this last race.
1. MW wins the race but FA is 2nd and takes the WDC
2. LH JB and a raft of others take out 1,2,3,4 and ...FA takes out the WDC



#88 iotar

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 11:54

In this regard I am with DM and his comments, the whole through season team order thing for Redbull is merely circumstantial speculation on part of the fans. Teams still need to manage races, if you classify them as team orders then fair enough, for me its simple race management else why even have monitored systems on the cars. The outcomes might not please certain fans because of bias but its a reality of racing as a team.


It's much more than that (bolded part). Some things we know because there's evidence: photo, recording, five witnesses claiming the same but some things we know because if it wasn't like that everything else around the incident wouldn't make sense.
Let's separate the facts from opinion for a moment. What happened in Turkey (confirmed):
- before the collision driver John was told to lower down engine settings
- before the collision driver Ben was told to put up engine settings
- driver Ben without preparing an overtaking move (couple of corners or laps usually) went alongside driver Ben and steered right (driver's Ben words), lost control and crashed into driver John
- after the race team manager only comment was that driver John did not leave enough space because driver Ben was his team mate
- after the race driver Ben did not feel guilty at all about this , he claimed that it wasn't his fault at all
- involvement of driver John's race engineer is unclear, he supposedly didn't pass some message. The fact is that team manager said that from now on he would be the one to pass messages in such situation
- Said engine setting were supposedly related to amount of fuel left (team manager's words). Apparently driver Ben could do that for only one lap (one lap more than driver John). Therefore overtaking move had to happen at exactly this lap.

If it wasn't the case of team orders overtaking move would not have happened and most of the above doesn't make sense.

From someone's sig here:
"Indeed, a few laps prior to the contentious overtaking, zzzzz drivers reduced their engine speed at the request of their respective engineers. Then Mr. Ben increased his engine speed without Mr John being informed. Mr Ben was therefore benefiting from a definite performance advantage over Mr Johnn the moments preceding the contentious overtaking".

Sounds familiar, doesn't it? Guess what is is.



#89 angularacceleration

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 11:57

Nivra you really don't seem to grasp what people are saying do you?

Team orders as early as Turkey should be frowned upon because it is so early in the championship and anything could happen. Team orders on the last lap of the last race used in order to give your teammate the championship (since you won't secure it) is fair play. Remember that it's better that someone in your team is champion then someone in another team. (The engineers and everyone within the team account for way more hard work then the drivers and deserve to say they worked on a WDC car)

#90 DILLIGAF

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 11:58

The team tactic in Istanbul was clearly for the drivers not to fight for position when they are leading a race. Webber rejected and disregarded that team tactic with some disastrous consequences for the team.


Going by that statement i think it's you who is being liberal with the truth. Does "not fighting for position" only apply to Webber? Vettel was fighting for position was he not? And his over optimistic passing attempt had disasterous consequences for the team.

Edited by DILLIGAF, 09 November 2010 - 11:59.


#91 Nivra

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 12:02

Why should he care?

Let's consider whether your hero Kimi cared in 2008 Nivra:



Keep digging mate. :lol:

:rotfl: to you!

You are talking non-sense. Kimi Raikkonen & Felipe Massa as Team-Mates had very good professional relationship, and their goals are well-defined by the work ethos of the Ferrari Team Management. Also, Kimi Raikkonen correctly gave tactical advantage (Points wise) to Felipe Massa because it's in Ferrari ritual to work as a family.

Whereas the RBR drivers have been at war!! Also, Red Bull Boss himself says there is no such ritual to follow himself for his drivers!!

If you are not delusional, you'd realize the difference between 'Team-Startegy' & 'Team-Order'.

'Team-Order' is literally an 'Order', where one team driver is given no 'Choice' but to move over, a la Germany 2010- with Massa feeling robbed & hurt. Similarly, It seems like Vettel doesn't want to give up his personal win to Webber just because Webebr is unable to do it himself. He still wants to beat Webber in the overall standing, so he doesn't want to be robbed.

Kimi Raikkonen certainly didn't feel he got robbed of anything... trust me, Raikkonen wouldn't move over for Webber either if he was in Vettel's place. The points difference is not enough.

Edited by Nivra, 09 November 2010 - 12:03.


#92 PassWind

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 12:12

True - but then you can say the same if Alonso or Vettel doesn't win either...



Oh yeah for sure, I hope I didn't seem to offer a contradictory point of view. It would only change I guess if Vettel did move over for Webber in that case the path to the WDC is different but for me wouldn't really matter. Its a team sport but I also see DM's point of view on the matter as well.

Edited by PassWind, 09 November 2010 - 12:13.


#93 DILLIGAF

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 12:14

:rotfl: to you!

You are talking non-sense. Kimi Raikkonen & Felipe Massa as Team-Mates had very good professional relationship, and their goals are well-defined by the work ethos of the Ferrari Team Management. Also, Kimi Raikkonen correctly gave tactical advantage (Points wise) to Felipe Massa because it's in Ferrari ritual to work as a family.

Whereas the RBR drivers have been at war!! Also, Red Bull Boss himself says there is no such ritual to follow himself for his drivers!!

If you are not delusional, you'd realize the difference between 'Team-Startegy' & 'Team-Order'.

'Team-Order' is literally an 'Order', where one team driver is given no 'Choice' but to move over, a la Germany 2010- with Massa feeling robbed & hurt. Similarly, It seems like Vettel doesn't want to give up his personal win to Webber just because Webebr is unable to do it himself. He still wants to beat Webber in the overall standing, so he doesn't want to be robbed.

Kimi Raikkonen certainly didn't feel he got robbed of anything... trust me, Raikkonen wouldn't move over for Webber either if he was in Vettel's place. The points difference is not enough.


If Seb moves over it is NOT a team order Nivra. It's exactly the same as Kimi moving over. Doing it for the team without having to be told to.

And to say Kimi wouldn't move over for Webber is a disgraceful insult to Kimi, he's a better man than that.

#94 plastik2k9

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 12:20

At the end of the day, given a team order or not, Vettel could be the guy who decides whether it's Alonso or Webber who takes the title. For some reason I feel that I'd respect him more if he assisted Webber, because it takes a lot for a racer to allow somebody to pass you. But then I would respect his decision not to help Webber because clearly it shows he races for himself first, team second, and there's nothing wrong with that either.

#95 flyer121

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 12:22

Kimi Raikkonen certainly didn't feel he got robbed of anything... trust me, Raikkonen wouldn't move over for Webber either if he was in Vettel's place. The points difference is not enough.


The only drivers I can think of who will NOT move over in such a scenario are Alonso and Hamilton and only if it involved each other.
Kimi would definitely move over, and that's the reason we like him. No two ways about it.
I am surprised that you as a Kimi fan , are saying otherwise.

I also did not like the way Vettel was thrown to the dogs for this favoritism thing , which first of all did not benefit him at all and then he went from the darling of F1 to the pantomime villain (atleast partly because of Webber). But at the end of the day they both owe their current positions to RBR, so whatever personal grudges they may have , both should be able to overlook that.

I know its hard being a Vettel fan because of all what has gone on with reliability and other stuff but take comfort in the fact that he was definitely the best driver of 2010 and the whole paddock, his fans and even Vettel haters know that.

Vettel has nothing to lose by moving over and everything to gain. Quite ironically, it really is a matter of HONOR for him as the title says.
Trust me on that.

Also - He probably will be the first driver in F1 history not to be beaten by a WDC winning teammate :) if all the scenarios play out as we expect.

Edited by flyer121, 09 November 2010 - 13:24.


#96 PassWind

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 12:28

From someone's sig here:
"Indeed, a few laps prior to the contentious overtaking, zzzzz drivers reduced their engine speed at the request of their respective engineers. Then Mr. Ben increased his engine speed without Mr John being informed. Mr Ben was therefore benefiting from a definite performance advantage over Mr Johnn the moments preceding the contentious overtaking".

Sounds familiar, doesn't it? Guess what is is.



I can empathize with your points, I do tend to believe through the media process of wolves on a carcass RedBull management was caught out by a list of circumstances that point to one thing that everyone wanted to take them to task over. But DM isn't involved in the day to day running of the team, his opinion proffers intent to the team whether this was clear prior to Turkey who knows, I am inclined to agree with you there is something definitely not right with the circumstances outlined. What is not clear is if the team management were cognizant of these facets and aware of the consequences if something went wrong like it did. If Seb had a crack then decided just to get his maximum points by trailing to the end, I am not sure this would have even been identified to the masses.

Dunno I am not the type to see evil intent in every strange occurrence which can contradict what one would logically think should be. I have found through my type of career that perceptions can be quite markedly different than the actual thought processes that may have caused an error, mistake or undesired result. I suppose its the difference between being ignorant of the outcomes and being reckless as to the outcomes. You can fix ignorance through the process of review and acceptance of personally identified shortfalls, the later is inherently malicious. I find in most cases ignorance is the main causation of the effect not the later. I hold this to be true because I honestly believe we are all good by design and through seeing this process in action as a facilitator of performance review when required.

#97 krapmeister

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 12:29

Oh yeah for sure, I hope I didn't seem to offer a contradictory point of view. It would only change I guess if Vettel did move over for Webber in that case the path to the WDC is different but for me wouldn't really matter. Its a team sport but I also see DM's point of view on the matter as well.


Oh no - you're cool. :up: I was just stating the obvious. :lol:

Actually, the one incident that has cost both drivers valuable championship points (Webber 10 and Vettel 18) was Turkey, and there is an argument to be made that it was the RBR management that did that to them. With those points both drivers would be in front in the WDC with Vettel ahead by 1 point from Mark, with Alonso 5 points further behind.

Perhaps that is why RBR do not want to interfere, as when they did they completely f*cked it up...

Edited by krapmeister, 09 November 2010 - 12:40.


#98 W154

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 13:16

:

Have you actually read any F1 history books Nivra? If you had you'd know that saying it's worse to lose to you teammate than help him win the title is bullshit.

Here's a post from another thread quoting a little bit of that F1 history you think you know about:



http://en.espnf1.com...tory/32863.html

That's F1 for you Nivra. Always has been & always will be. I suggest you do a little more reading of the history books before you post tripe.

Geez, you can be a cruel ,heartless bastard at times Dilligaf :p You post the thoughts of SSM, a man who ,lets face it ,has more brains and intelligence in his little finger than some ( most) people on this site have between their ears. His comment on this topic should have pretty well ended the discussion, but no Nivra and White Blue still came back for another thrashing, no doubt to be followed in time by the rest of the usual suspects when they wake up.
I know its a stressfull time for all of us at this time here in The Great Southern Land ,but please show a little bit of restraint in kicking the crap out of the Vettel fanboys and the Mateshitz, Marko, Horner bum boys, as I'm sure the heavens and stars will align as we want them 5 pm Sunday. Then you can tell them what you REALLY think ;)

Edited by W154, 09 November 2010 - 13:21.


#99 PassWind

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 13:24

:eek:

So many negative comments about RBR and Vettel that I do hope Webber gets to go to a better team next season like Webber-fans think. I would like to know which one though :wave:

Or is any team better than RBR? Hispania? Lotus?


I am a Webber fan and don't think that.

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#100 PassWind

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 13:45

Kudos to you for that, PassWind :kiss:

It's just so shocking to read how some people want Mark to give a kick to the team and go to a better team as if RBR would be the worst team in F1 that Mark has to 'put up' with :(


I actually think Mark needs a mentor figure he respects to have a chat to him about expectation management at his age and experience, maybe someone like DC. I really don't know the reasoning for his recent comments they in my opinion are contradictory to how I think his character is, it may be as a result of pressure. No one is immune to it and sometimes irrational thoughts are easier to let through the gate in public when your under pressure to perform. I hope this is a case anyway.