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Is it a Matter of Honour for Vettel?


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#101 Henrytheeigth

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 13:49

Honour and Vettel should not be used in the same sentence! :lol:

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#102 Nivra

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 13:58

The only drivers I can think of who will NOT move over in such a scenario are Alonso and Hamilton and only if it involved each other.
Kimi would definitely move over, and that's the reason we like him. No two ways about it.
I am surprised that you as a Kimi fan , are saying otherwise.

I also did not like the way Vettel was thrown to the dogs for this favoritism thing , which first of all did not benefit him at all and then he went from the darling of F1 to the pantomime villain (atleast partly because of Webber). But at the end of the day they both owe their current positions to RBR, so whatever personal grudges they may have , both should be able to overlook that.

I know its hard being a Vettel fan because of all what has gone on with reliability and other stuff but take comfort in the fact that he was definitely the best driver of 2010 and the whole paddock, his fans and even Vettel haters know that.

Vettel has nothing to lose by moving over and everything to gain. Quite ironically, it really is a matter of HONOR for him as the title says.
Trust me on that.

Also - He probably will be the first driver in F1 history not to be beaten by a WDC winning teammate :) if all the scenarios play out as we expect.


Geez it sounded wrong.

What I meant was Kimi Raikkonen would never move over if he felt he was being 'Robbed' by his team unethically.

Also, that Vettel has every right not to move over if he himself felt he is being hard done by... especially if the Team is forcing it upon him without his proper consent.

Like I said, maybe one of Sebastian Vettel's personal goal is not to get beaten by his team-mate in the final Championship standing... a valid goal to have for any driver, especially considering the 'Fight" they have had this year.

If in Abu Dhabi he has the chance to beat his own team-mate move ahead of him in points... he might very well take it. Why should he get teary- eyed about Webber who he personally feels has done his reputation a lot of harm.

Lets put it this way:- Would Alonso have moved over for Hamilton in Brazil 2007, if the situation arised??
:stoned: :kiss: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Edited by Nivra, 09 November 2010 - 14:02.


#103 goldenboy

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 14:06

Honour and Vettel should not be used in the same sentence! :lol:

way off base really

#104 goldenboy

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 14:10

Geez it sounded wrong.

yes you do sound wrong. quite often.

#105 flyer121

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 14:11

Geez it sounded wrong.
~~~~

Lets put it this way:- Would Alonso have moved over for Hamilton in Brazil 2007, if the situation arised??
:stoned: :kiss: :rotfl: :rotfl:


I know what you mean and I do empathize with you for that.

Hamilton and Alonso may be at each other's throats even after 3 years but Kimi definitely is more of a gentleman and has a much bigger heart than both combined.
I bet SV is not that vindictive either. And its hardly a war between these two. The only targets of these comments are the team , which is not too unfair given their ridiculous team management and general behavior. I agree that Vettel is suffering collateral damage for no reason though but it can hardly be called Mark's fault entirely.

Besides the goal to beat his teammate matters only in history books 10-15 years down the line. As of now , no one will think less of Vettel just because he lost to Webber in the WDC standings because of the very points he had to gift him.

I hope that it doesn't come to that though. Either Webber dominates and wins OR is not running second to Vettel.

Edited by flyer121, 09 November 2010 - 14:24.


#106 WhiteBlue

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 14:16

If at the end of the race Seb decides to take the win knowing that the win means Alonso will be the WDC, he will have sacrificed a WDC for his team in exchange for one grand prix victory. You think that is honorable?

Do you think Phil Hill would do that if he was in the exact same position as Seb?

Would Stirling Moss go for the win if he knew it would cost his team a WDC?

Would Kimi take the win knowing it would cost the team the WDC?

  • I have already said it would be honerable and his boss would obviously not mind.
  • It is hard to say what Phil Hill would do. He was never called to sacrifice more than a second place.
  • It is equally hard to say what Moss would do. He says he would let Webber by but who knows what would happen in a real showdown.
  • Same is true for Kimi. I would not be confident to predict his decision.


It's much more than that (bolded part). Some things we know because there's evidence: photo, recording, five witnesses claiming the same but some things we know because if it wasn't like that everything else around the incident wouldn't make sense.
Let's separate the facts from opinion for a moment. What happened in Turkey (confirmed):
- before the collision driver John was told to lower down engine settings
- before the collision driver Ben was told to put up engine settings
- driver Ben without preparing an overtaking move (couple of corners or laps usually) went alongside driver Ben and steered right (driver's Ben words), lost control and crashed into driver John
- after the race team manager only comment was that driver John did not leave enough space because driver Ben was his team mate
- after the race driver Ben did not feel guilty at all about this , he claimed that it wasn't his fault at all
- involvement of driver John's race engineer is unclear, he supposedly didn't pass some message. The fact is that team manager said that from now on he would be the one to pass messages in such situation
- Said engine setting were supposedly related to amount of fuel left (team manager's words). Apparently driver Ben could do that for only one lap (one lap more than driver John). Therefore overtaking move had to happen at exactly this lap.

If it wasn't the case of team orders overtaking move would not have happened and most of the above doesn't make sense.

From someone's sig here:
"Indeed, a few laps prior to the contentious overtaking, zzzzz drivers reduced their engine speed at the request of their respective engineers. Then Mr. Ben increased his engine speed without Mr John being informed. Mr Ben was therefore benefiting from a definite performance advantage over Mr Johnn the moments preceding the contentious overtaking".

These are not at all the facts from the Istanbul park race. Webber was advised by his loyal race engineer Ciaron Pilbeam to save fuel because he was short fueled to be competitive and he had over run his fuel budget. Vettel at that time had already saved some fuel but would also have to detune his engine soon to stay on the budget. But he was faster and had slightly more fuel. Those are the facts. Then Marko suggested a team tactic that Webber should not fight Vettel. The tactic was disregarded by Ciaron Pilbeam who told Webber instead to "Push your boost button". As a result of the conflicting communications both drivers had a collision while Vettel had already partly passed Mark Webber. It is a fact that Webber denied Vettel the racing line into the next turn and Vettel moved for that line. Beyond that all is speculation. IMO it is fair to assume that Vettel thought Webber wouldn't fight for the position. He could obviously not know that Pilbeam had rejected the team tactic. It is also a fact that Red Bull continued to give equal support to Webber although his engineer had rejected the team tactic. Webber did confirm that only three days ago.

At the end of the day, given a team order or not, Vettel could be the guy who decides whether it's Alonso or Webber who takes the title. For some reason I feel that I'd respect him more if he assisted Webber, because it takes a lot for a racer to allow somebody to pass you. But then I would respect his decision not to help Webber because clearly it shows he races for himself first, team second, and there's nothing wrong with that either.

:up: :up: :up: perfectly sums it up


#107 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 14:19

It's not a matter of Honour for Vettel, it's a matter of Horner.

#108 Andrew Hope

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 14:31

I think something people need to keep in mind is that all laws - every law ever - has some small degree of bullshit attached to it. Just because it is against the law to do something does not automatically make it morally wrong, and if you're one of those shitheads that bases your morals off what is illegal and what isn't then I wonder what you are doing watching F1 anyway.

#109 sanjiro

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 14:33

Webber was advised by his loyal race engineer Ciaron Pilbeam to save fuel because he was short fueled to be competitive and he had over run his fuel budget. Vettel at that time had already saved some fuel but would also have to detune his engine soon to stay on the budget. But he was faster and had slightly more fuel. Those are the facts. Then Marko suggested a team tactic that Webber should not fight Vettel. The tactic was disregarded by Ciaron Pilbeam who told Webber instead to "Push your boost button". As a result of the conflicting communications both drivers had a collision while Vettel had already partly passed Mark Webber. It is a fact that Webber denied Vettel the racing line into the next turn and Vettel moved for that line. Beyond that all is speculation. IMO it is fair to assume that Vettel thought Webber wouldn't fight for the position. He could obviously not know that Pilbeam had rejected the team tactic. It is also a fact that Red Bull continued to give equal support to Webber although his engineer had rejected the team tactic. Webber did confirm that only three days ago.



:) first time I have seen you give what I would call an UNBIASED assessment of this incident and it makes you a bigger man than me.
(I dont agree with the fuel saving story, there is NO evidence MW needed to go to fuel saving at that time, only that he did and that as he was leading the race and hard to pass he could afford to take it easy) It was HMs 4th version of events that gave us the fuel save story.

but :up: and thanks for the considered debate.

If SV is in P1 with MW P2 and FA P3 he is in a win win situation.
He can take the win giving FA the WDC and people will say he was playing it straight.
He can let MW through and give RBR and MW the WDC and people will say he is a great team player.

There is no way in the upcoming race for SV to come out smelling anything but roses (unless he t-bones someone)
SO SV supporters rejoice, you man can only look up from where he is. Up an onward to 2010.

Whats more he will not have to contend with MW in 2011 because by the remote chance he is still with the team it will be only as lap dog No2 in every way

Edited by sanjiro, 09 November 2010 - 14:34.


#110 Andrew Hope

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 14:56

I'm glad I read that post, because I've always assumed it was 'Karen' Pilbeam and thought that was a bit of an odd name for a bloke.

#111 senna da silva

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 15:11

If Ferrari hadn't employed team orders in Germany there would not even be a need for discussion of team orders in Abu Dhabi.

Thank you very much Ferrari you f#cking idiots!

#112 iotar

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 15:11

These are not at all the facts from the Istanbul park race. Webber was advised by his loyal race engineer Ciaron Pilbeam to save fuel because he was short fueled to be competitive and he had over run his fuel budget. Vettel at that time had already saved some fuel but would also have to detune his engine soon to stay on the budget. But he was faster and had slightly more fuel. Those are the facts. Then Marko suggested a team tactic that Webber should not fight Vettel. The tactic was disregarded by Ciaron Pilbeam who told Webber instead to "Push your boost button". As a result of the conflicting communications both drivers had a collision while Vettel had already partly passed Mark Webber. It is a fact that Webber denied Vettel the racing line into the next turn and Vettel moved for that line. Beyond that all is speculation. IMO it is fair to assume that Vettel thought Webber wouldn't fight for the position. He could obviously not know that Pilbeam had rejected the team tactic. It is also a fact that Red Bull continued to give equal support to Webber although his engineer had rejected the team tactic. Webber did confirm that only three days ago.


"Then Marko suggested a team tactic that Webber should not fight Vettel."

Sounds like a team order and that was exactly my point. Try telling that to Mateschitz now.

"As a result of the conflicting communications both drivers had a collision while Vettel had already partly passed Mark Webber."

This is not a fact and it's completely incorrect. Vettel was nowhere near passing Webber. And he lost control of the car, steered right and crashed. It had nothing, I repeat nothing to do with Webber fighting or doing anything apart from driving straight and waiting for the corner to come. So blaming Webber on his amateurish mistake doesn't make sense. Actual fight didn't happen.
Regardless what Vettel expected or not he had his own eyes and brain to assess the situation and he failed big time.

One more question: was this fuel saving worth exactly one lap more or not. Fact?

#113 jk

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 15:34

This is not a fact and it's completely incorrect. Vettel was nowhere near passing Webber. And he lost control of the car, steered right and crashed. It had nothing, I repeat nothing to do with Webber fighting or doing anything apart from driving straight and waiting for the corner to come. So blaming Webber on his amateurish mistake doesn't make sense. Actual fight didn't happen.



Yeah, i remember all those times Webber kept to the left down the backstraight coming up to the lefthander... Oh wait he just did that once. And of course Vettel was near passing Webber, he was in front and on the inside line.
Of course Vettel could have avoided the accident. But to say that Mark did not contribute at all is simply wrong. He was on the war line trying to force Vettel into a mistake. He suceeded in doing that, but was collected himself in an unfortunate way.

Webber was neither innocent or evil, neither was Vettel being a moron. That was just hard racing. Too hard though, given that it is costumary to leave a little more room for error racing your teammate. It was Webber who left no room for error and Vettel who then committed the error.

#114 Birelman

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 18:15

I think it's more of a matter of Vettel wanting to show he's the moral victor.

Everyone knows who the fastest man in 2010 has been, everyone also knows who is the one who has lost the most through reliability issues. Everyone does the math, and he wants to, in the end, be able to say, "You guys might have the points to be Champion, but I was the best" Sort of thing. And he's proving it to be the case, specially since Singapore. 2nd, 1st, 1st until blown, then 1st again, hard to argue with that, specially if he happens to be in the lead in Adu Dhabi and gives up the lead, that would mean another 1st until <Insert issue here> of which he's had a lot this year. The kid is on fire right now, definatley the hottest driver at the moment.

#115 taran

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 18:16

for me the issue is simple, if you are the bigger man you hand over the win and let your team mate win the championship, no ifs, no buts.

you kids should read up on gillies villeneuve, he knew how to treat his team mate in this sort of situaton



Ah, the pleasure of wallowing in nostalgia. Too bad you're memory is hopelessly wrong.

Ferrari had a simple rule in those days in that the drivers were not allowed to race each other after a certain number of laps (roughly 20 laps from the end or the last quarter of the race) due to the poor reliability of cars in those days.

Villeneuve had as much opportunity of winning the 1979 WDC as Scheckter within those parameters. He didn't and consoled himself with the knowledge that he'd have other opportunities.
We all know how that turned out. And that is exactly what's wrong with this scenario. Many people think Vettel is young and will get other opportunities while this propably is Webber's only shot at the title.

I say, there might never be another chance. Villeneuve didn't get one. Neither did Alboreto. Or Arnoux. Or Peterson. Bad luck, death or simply uncompetitive cars might blight your career.

Senna was probably the biggest asshole ever in F1. And that is saying a lot, considering the amount of egotistical bastards who have raced there. Yet he is revered by racing fans. Because that is what it takes to be successful in modern times. Out and out ruthlessness and selfishness. Nice guys, guys who defer to the team and wax eloquently about the team effort become #2's.

Watson vs. Lauda....

Johansson vs. Prost....

Berger vs. Senna....

Coulthard vs. Hakkinnen....

Barrichello vs. Schumacher...

Fisichella vs. Alonso....

Most of these guys had the talent, the car and the opportunity to become WDC. But didn't because they weren't ruthless enough.














#116 Birelman

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 18:25

Ah, the pleasure of wallowing in nostalgia. Too bad you're memory is hopelessly wrong.

Ferrari had a simple rule in those days in that the drivers were not allowed to race each other after a certain number of laps (roughly 20 laps from the end or the last quarter of the race) due to the poor reliability of cars in those days.

Villeneuve had as much opportunity of winning the 1979 WDC as Scheckter within those parameters. He didn't and consoled himself with the knowledge that he'd have other opportunities.
We all know how that turned out. And that is exactly what's wrong with this scenario. Many people think Vettel is young and will get other opportunities while this propably is Webber's only shot at the title.

I say, there might never be another chance. Villeneuve didn't get one. Neither did Alboreto. Or Arnoux. Or Peterson. Bad luck, death or simply uncompetitive cars might blight your career.

Senna was probably the biggest asshole ever in F1. And that is saying a lot, considering the amount of egotistical bastards who have raced there. Yet he is revered by racing fans. Because that is what it takes to be successful in modern times. Out and out ruthlessness and selfishness. Nice guys, guys who defer to the team and wax eloquently about the team effort become #2's.

Watson vs. Lauda....

Johansson vs. Prost....

Berger vs. Senna....

Coulthard vs. Hakkinnen....

Barrichello vs. Schumacher...

Fisichella vs. Alonso....

Most of these guys had the talent, the car and the opportunity to become WDC. But didn't because they weren't ruthless enough.

Those are very good and valid points, however, I don't think we saw any of those drivers in the position Vettel is at the moment (trailing your teammate for a bunch of factors which we all know of).

Had Senna been in this situation, with his good friend Berger in contention for the Championship into the last race, and Senna himself having no chance with Prost in third during the race, hmmmm, I would think Senna would much rather Berger became Champion than a rival, even more so when he, himself would have to sacrifice himself to be the hero. I don't know, it's debatable, of course, but I'd think he'd much rather Berger won in that situation. And probably the same would go for all the others. Now if senna had a shot, we all know he took no prisoners, and I don't think Vettel takes any either.

#117 WhiteBlue

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 19:16

:) first time I have seen you give what I would call an UNBIASED assessment of this incident and it makes you a bigger man than me.
(I dont agree with the fuel saving story, there is NO evidence MW needed to go to fuel saving at that time, only that he did and that as he was leading the race and hard to pass he could afford to take it easy) It was HMs 4th version of events that gave us the fuel save story.
but :up: and thanks for the considered debate.

Thanks for the compliment. The fuel story was right there from the first time Marko made a comment. That was basically while the race was still on and it was to Sky Deutschland about the issue of a team tactic that was disregarded by Pilbeam IICR. He then went on to repeat the story to the Austrian media without ever changing his line. I followed Marko's comments on AMuS. They are a very respected source. Marko and Horner were incredibly naive to under estimate the Aussie's ambition and determination. They should have sorted the ground rules latest in Monaco where Webber took the lead in the championship. To bring this up in a race was extremely amateurish. It is my considered opinion that Pilbeam/Webber made a mistake to reject the deal of not fighting for positions. With such a rule in place temporarily loosing a position to a team mate doesn't mean a thing. You always get it back if you are faster and have enough fuel.

"Then Marko suggested a team tactic that Webber should not fight Vettel."
Sounds like a team order and that was exactly my point. Try telling that to Mateschitz now.

There is a difference between legal team tactic that isn't forced on the drivers and team order which is issued against their wishes. Ferrari obviously ordered Massa in Hockenheim because he did not want to let Alonso by but had to succumb to Alonso's and Ferrari's wishes.

"As a result of the conflicting communications both drivers had a collision while Vettel had already partly passed Mark Webber."
This is not a fact and it's completely incorrect. Vettel was nowhere near passing Webber. And he lost control of the car, steered right and crashed. It had nothing, I repeat nothing to do with Webber fighting or doing anything apart from driving straight and waiting for the corner to come. So blaming Webber on his amateurish mistake doesn't make sense. Actual fight didn't happen.
Regardless what Vettel expected or not he had his own eyes and brain to assess the situation and he failed big time.

  • Indeed Vettel was at least 2m ahead of Webber but still in overlap when the contact happened. How would you call that? I call it passing.
  • Vettel never lost control of the car before the contact was made. He was steering not very aggressively to the right to get into a better line for the next left hander.
  • Of couse it was a fight for position. Vettel pushed for the racing line and Webber did not yield one iota. If Webber had agreed to the no fight tactic he would have yielded the position as soon as Vettel's front wing was further up the track than his. He did not do this. Hence, he was fighting.

One more question: was this fuel saving worth exactly one lap more or not. Fact?

AFAIK the difference in fuel was about one lap, but I would have to google up the reports on Auto Motor und Sport (AMuS) to confirm that. I don't think it is really relevant how much fuel they had. With a "No fight" rule there can be many position changes between team mates as the race evolves. Just compare what the McLaren drivers were doing some laps later. You have to remember that the race engineers at RBR are incredibly loyal to their drivers. They decide to make the call for fuel saving and would not do it unless their charge was running foul of the fuel budget. At least Ciaron Pilbeam seems to be prepared to fight nails and teeth for Webber. Do you think he would put Webber on fuel save unnecessarily?

#118 Black Widow

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 19:34

The fuel story was right there from the first time Marko made a comment. That was basically while the race was still on and it was to Sky Deutschland about the issue of a team tactic that was disregarded by Pilbeam IICR. He then went on to repeat the story to the Austrian media without ever changing his line. I followed Marko's comments on AMuS. They are a very respected source.


WhiteBlue that is not true.

Marko changed his story a number of times.

Q: Why was Sebastian so much quicker than Mark so suddenly?
HM: I think it was in the tyres.


http://www.formula1....10/5/10855.html


#119 Johnrambo

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 19:40

So we have a four page thread debating if Vettel will gift the WDC to Ferrari driver rather than his TEAM-mate? Sheesh.

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#120 iotar

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Posted 09 November 2010 - 19:56

  • Indeed Vettel was at least 2m ahead of Webber but still in overlap when the contact happened. How would you call that? I call it passing.

No it was not a pass. Don't know don't care what you mean by two metres

  • Vettel never lost control of the car before the contact was made. He was steering not very aggressively to the right to get into a better line for the next left hander.


  • This is pretty amusing. Of course he didn't and the earth is flat. Anything else? So he steered into Webber on purpose and expected him to disappear? Once again. He lost control of the car, steered right and crashed into Webber.
    You are 100% wrong on this one. Before I waste my time again on this will you admit that when I find Vettel's quote proving that?

    [edited:

    "I was trying to focus on the breaking point all of the sudden I lost the car..." It's not entirely correct - he makes it sound like he was sitting comfortably there and he "had the corner" which is of course not correct - but anyway.
    Case closed.]

  • Of couse it was a fight for position. Vettel pushed for the racing line and Webber did not yield one iota. If Webber had agreed to the no fight tactic he would have yielded the position as soon as Vettel's front wing was further up the track than his. He did not do this. Hence, he was fighting.
  • No such thing as racing line in this situation - straight before the corner, two cars side by side.
    BTW are you changing your stance once again - similarly to Horner/Red Bull I would say. Since as you claim there was clear fight between them how can you say that Vettel still expected Webber to move over. Another contradiction or endless and growing list of excuses for Vettel's driving incompetence..

    AFAIK the difference in fuel was about one lap, but I would have to google up the reports on Auto Motor und Sport (AMuS) to confirm that. I don't think it is really relevant how much fuel they had.

    This one lap is of course part of the excuse and cover up for team orders thrown out of the blue.

    WhiteBlue that is not true.

    Marko changed his story a number of times.



    http://www.formula1....10/5/10855.html


    In light of this recent stance on team orders by Mateschitz and Horner this is one cringeworthy read. I feel almost embarrassed for them.

    Edited by iotar, 09 November 2010 - 20:15.


    #121 wewantourdarbyback

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    Posted 09 November 2010 - 19:59

    Was it not Sebastian Vettel who thought the team should have made him number one last season...

    #122 HPT

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    Posted 09 November 2010 - 20:48

    No it isn't!!

    Getting Beaten by your own team-mate is worse! Pick up any F1 books written by many drivers... or simply ask you neighbor!

    Infact- Webber becoming World Champion means "JackSh!it" to Vettel... why should he even bother if Webber is not good enough to beat him fairly on track. Why should Vettel even bloody care. Webber & his fans can sulk all they like... Vettel wouldn't care a damn or shed a tear. He's 23... & he's the future, whether you like him or not.


    Irvine beat Schumacher in 1999 because of a very specific set of circumstances. No one thinks any less of him. The same as no one will think any less of Vettel if he ended up behind Webber in the standings this year. Both of them have been pretty equal all year - Vettel is a usually a tad quicker, Webber is usually more consistent. But overall Vettel edges it.

    #123 WhiteBlue

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    Posted 09 November 2010 - 21:00

    @iotar, I suggest we agree to disagree on this issue. You seem to be incapable of presenting a coherent line of thought. Or perhaps I'm not able to understand your logic. In any case it seems useless to continue an argument that is not going anywhere. I don't see a purpose to continue a dispute between parties without any common ground.

    #124 HPT

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    Posted 09 November 2010 - 21:17

    @iotar, I suggest we agree to disagree on this issue. You seem to be incapable of presenting a coherent line of thought. Or perhaps I'm not able to understand your logic. In any case it seems useless to continue an argument that is not going anywhere. I don't see a purpose to continue a dispute between parties without any common ground.


    Sorry to barge in but I thought iotar's line of thought was as coherent as it can get. I guess you are unable to understand his logic.

    #125 jpmontoya_fan

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    Posted 09 November 2010 - 21:24

    Vettle has zero respect for the work of the team and he is such a spoiled brat that even with Mark Webber winning the final race and he coming second, he would dare to let Alonso pass to take second place and win the WDC... anything but see how Webber kicks him... after everybody was saying at the start of the season that Vettel was going to outscore Webber... so in his childish mind, would be better to give the championship to another team...

    I just hope Webber wins and Alonso finishes fifth or worse. Or in the worst scenario, that Alonso be Champion but not Vettel, never EVER Vettel.

    #126 Juan Kerr

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    Posted 09 November 2010 - 21:27

    Honour ? What a joke, Vettel would be the first one to accept a gift himself without batting an eyelid. If Webber has a chance of winning Vettel should move the hell over and in fact he is going to, obviously the internet trolls love inventing other more perverse scenarios suitable to their style of thought.

    #127 WhiteBlue

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    Posted 09 November 2010 - 21:27

    WhiteBlue that is not true. Marko changed his story a number of times.

    No, I don't think he did about the important bits. In this interview he wasn't sure of the cause of Vettel's higher speed but thought it was tyres. He did not claim to know the real facts. The main point is that he confirmed the team tactic and that the drivers were not supposed to fight each other "It is a strict no-go to go to the wall with each other".

    FOM interview with Helmut Marko
    Q: Will you change something in the future to avoid such an incident happening again?
    HM: Well, first of all we always told them that it is a strict no-go to go to the wall with each other. Whatever happens they always have to give room to the other. I hope that all the people involved will think a bit more in the future before acting.

    Q: That suggests that one of the two should have given way to the other…
    HM: Yes.

    Q: And you will discuss with them who that should have been …
    HM: Yes.

    Q: Is it true that the team gave instructions to Mark Webber’s race engineer to let Sebastian Vettel pass because otherwise Lewis (Hamilton)would be able to overtake?
    HM: That is not correct, because that would mean a team order. We informed Mark about the situation and it is for the driver to decide. The fact is that if Sebastian hadn’t passed he would have been overtaken by Hamilton.

    Q: Why was Sebastian so much quicker than Mark so suddenly?
    HM: I think it was in the tyres.


    Marko wasn't supposed to know immediately after the race what was the cause for Vettel to be faster. His concern was that the Red Bull 1-2 wasn't using maximum pace for whatever reasons and was caught by the McLaren drivers. The FOM interview btw was on race day May 30th. I will have a look at the interviews on AMuS and Motorsport-total.com.

    EDIT

    1 pm interview with Marko in AMuS on Monday
    German original: Das ist ja keine Manipulation. Die Message an Webber hätte lauten sollen: Du bist zu langsam. Mit diesem Tempo ist Hamilton nicht hinter dir zu halten. Schone dein Auto und wenn der Vettel schneller ist, dann kämpf nicht gegen ihn und konzentrier dich auf den Hamilton. Das ist ja keine Stallorder, das war ja Fakt.

    Translation: This isn't really a manipulation. The message to Webber should have read:"You are too slow. At this speed Hamilton can't be kept behind you. Preserve your car and if Vettel is faster don't fight him and focus on Hamilton." This really isn't team order, those were the facts.


    1.30 pm interview with Marko on motorsport-total.com on Monday June 1st.

    German original: Der Renningenieur hat den Auftrag bekommen, ihm zu erklären, was los ist. Also dass Vettel nicht ihn attackiert, sondern dieses Tempo gehen muss, damit er nicht von Hamilton überholt wird. Webber sollte sich nicht gegen den schnelleren Vettel wehren, sondern sein Auto schonen, um dann die Attacken von Hamilton abwehren zu können. Warum (Webber nicht informiert wurde), ist bis heute nicht ganz klar. Dieser Ingenieur hatte einfach einen Blackout, er hat nicht richtig reagiert.

    English translation: The race engineer (Pilbeam) received the order to explain to him (Webber) what was going on. To explain that Vettel was not attacking him but needed to go faster to avoid being passed by Hamilton. Webber was supposed not to fight the faster Vettel but save his car to fight Hamilton. It is still not entirely clear today why (Webber wasn't informed). This engineer simply had a black out, he did not do the right thing.


    In these independent interviews Marko always says that the team tactic was not to fight Vettel and that Webber was supposed to be informed of the threat of Hamilton catching up behind Vettel. I agree that my memory about the fuel situation was not correct. On the other side I do not see it as the relevant issue here. The message to Webber should have been not to fight and Pilbeam made it "Push your boost button".

    Edited by WhiteBlue, 09 November 2010 - 22:05.


    #128 Black Widow

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    Posted 09 November 2010 - 21:56

    The fuel story was right there from the first time Marko made a comment. That was basically while the race was still on and it was to Sky Deutschland about the issue of a team tactic that was disregarded by Pilbeam IICR. He then went on to repeat the story to the Austrian media without ever changing his line. I followed Marko's comments on AMuS. They are a very respected source.


    ?????????????????

    #129 WhiteBlue

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    Posted 09 November 2010 - 22:09

    ?????????????????


    I went back to the sources and it appears my memory about the fuel issue was wrong. Apologies for that. I maintain my point that Marko did not change his story regarding the core of the issue here. There was a team tactic not to fight each other and Webber wasn't given the right message about the Hamilton attack behind Vettel. Pilbeam told him to "Push your boost button" instead.

    I must have confused Marko with DC. He was the guy who brought up the fuel story. At least that is what I make out of the following source.

    Article by DC
    The reality is, Webber was told to de-tune his engine a couple of laps before the collision in order to save fuel. When Vettel suddenly came up behind him he was surprised because they had started the race with exactly the same amount.
    I believe that he, having calmed down, will accept the team’s explanation that Vettel had managed to save more fuel than him and therefore had an extra burst at the optimum engine level before inevitably having to de-tune his engine as well.
    We saw exactly the same instructions being given to the McLaren drivers. The race pace was much faster than teams imagined and the cars, which start as light as they possibly can, burned fuel faster than anticipated.
    As for the crash, who was to blame? Webber held his ground, which he was perfectly entitled to do, and Vettel steered sharply towards the racing line once he felt he had cleared Webber’s car. Webber could have given him more room and Vettel could have kept going in a straight line towards the braking point.
    Both could have done more to avoid it.


    Edited by WhiteBlue, 09 November 2010 - 22:26.


    #130 Slartibartfast

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    Posted 09 November 2010 - 22:42

    Does Vettel's refusal to acknowledge Team-Orders for Abu Dhabi be more of personal respect & driver's honour. I mean, which driver wants to be known as gotten beaten by his team-mate... let alone if he is actually not beaten fairly.

    If Vettel manages to continue his form and beat Mark Webber & Alonso in Abu Dhabi, then Vettel has every right not to hand over his win to Mark Webber out of pity. Vettel has now beaten Webber continuously in the last 5-6 races and is only behind in points because of a lot of bad luck (apart from mistakes)... hence this current 'Team-Order' hysteria going around pestering Vettel & RedBull as Webber hasn't been good enough to beat him in recent form.

    ....Since its already assumed by many (not me) that Vettel will probably beat Webber coz of being the superior driver (or why assume team-order situation), here goes the standings if Vettel wins, Webber is 2nd & Alonso 3rd in race...-

    1- Alonso- 261 points = ***Wdc***
    2- Vettel- 256 Points = 5 wins
    3- Webber- 256 points = 4 wins

    or if Vettel lets Webber pass

    1- Webber-WDC2010
    2- Alonso - .......
    3- Vettel

    Why would Vettel want to go down in History (including F1 Books & the dreaded F1 Forums) as being the guy beaten by his Team-Mate Webber in 2010 season, driving for Red Bull Racing Team.

    He's young & he's been fast! Why would a 23 year old driver want his CV or Report Card to show - "Sebastian Vettel= Beaten by Team-Mate & Rival Mark Webber- 2010 Season"

    Shouldn't Vettel have the rights to protect his personal record over his Team-Mate, as well as his Championship standings? Webber has been good enough to win races; and anyways Webber's glory has nothing to do with Vettel himself. If anything, he'll come out the biggest loser from actually helping out.

    P.S- Also, Vettel will be relegated to 3rd in the standings instead of Runner-Up (2nd) if he lets Webber win over him... even that holds an important number for all Drivers in Formula 1.

    Therefore, I think Webber should atleast up his game a little and beat SV fairly on track. That ways, he's not "Robbing" a young driver of his deserving 2nd place in the championship... but will be regarded as a true champion himself.

    C'mon Webber Mate, just win the race & the championship honorably for the sake of all F1 Fans and Viewers.

    Interesting post.
    The salient points of the post as I see them:

    Does Vettel's refusal to acknowledge Team-Orders for Abu Dhabi be more of personal respect & driver's honour. I mean, which driver wants to be known as gotten beaten by his team-mate... let alone if he is actually not beaten fairly.

    Shouldn't Vettel have the rights to protect his personal record over his Team-Mate, as well as his Championship standings?

    I suppose the answer is that a driver does have the right to preserve his respect and honour if he behaves in a way that entitles him to that respect and honour in the first place. Would that driver, for example, refuse to accept a component that has been taken from his team-mate's car, thus leaving his team-mate with inferior equipment?


    #131 DILLIGAF

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    Posted 09 November 2010 - 23:04

    :
    Geez, you can be a cruel ,heartless bastard at times Dilligaf :p You post the thoughts of SSM, a man who ,lets face it ,has more brains and intelligence in his little finger than some ( most) people on this site have between their ears. His comment on this topic should have pretty well ended the discussion, but no Nivra and White Blue still came back for another thrashing, no doubt to be followed in time by the rest of the usual suspects when they wake up.
    I know its a stressfull time for all of us at this time here in The Great Southern Land ,but please show a little bit of restraint in kicking the crap out of the Vettel fanboys and the Mateshitz, Marko, Horner bum boys, as I'm sure the heavens and stars will align as we want them 5 pm Sunday. Then you can tell them what you REALLY think ;)


    :lol: Cheers mate. It's good to throw a little truth in amongst all the fiction!!

    A cruel & heartless bastard i am mate, hence Dilligaf!!  ;)

    #132 DILLIGAF

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    Posted 09 November 2010 - 23:42

    I know what you mean and I do empathize with you for that.

    Hamilton and Alonso may be at each other's throats even after 3 years but Kimi definitely is more of a gentleman and has a much bigger heart than both combined.
    I bet SV is not that vindictive either. And its hardly a war between these two. The only targets of these comments are the team , which is not too unfair given their ridiculous team management and general behavior. I agree that Vettel is suffering collateral damage for no reason though but it can hardly be called Mark's fault entirely.Besides the goal to beat his teammate matters only in history books 10-15 years down the line. As of now , no one will think less of Vettel just because he lost to Webber in the WDC standings because of the very points he had to gift him.

    I hope that it doesn't come to that though. Either Webber dominates and wins OR is not running second to Vettel.


    Gee it's great to see someone who is not a Webber fan posting objective & logical comments. :up: :up:

    Webber has not targeted Seb, only team management. Yet many believe he has & that it's a personal war between him & Seb when it has never been that. I agree some of his comments should never have seen the light of day but after Turkey & Silverstone he was well within his rights to feel aggrieved. Even his latest comments weren't inflammatory when you read them in context. The comments that the media & some Vettel fans have completely blown out of all proportion relate to this so-called emotional support & that Webber is whinging about Seb getting it & he should as well.

    Here's the two questions put to him about team support & his answers:


    Q. You still seem to feel that the team isn't fully behind you...

    MW: Technically everything's been very, very good.

    Q. But on the personal side?

    MW: It's obvious isn't it.

    Q. But why do you think that?

    MW: Of course when young, new chargers come onto the block, that's where the emotion is. That's the way it is. Which is absolutely fine, because I've had a great opportunity and a great car to go and do some great things this year, and I have done that. That's what I've just explained. I've got favourites in life. I've got people I like to be with. That's how it is. It's human nature.


    Now from those two answers, many here have come to the conclusion that Mark wants the emotional support & that he somehow blames Vettel for it & therefore Vettel has the right to be upset & drive to win the race at Abu Dhabi even if it means Red Bull miss out on winning the WDC. WTF? It's laughable. A complete beat up by the media which unfortunately some fans have latched onto as a reason for Vettel being within his rights to deny the WDC to Mark & Red Bull.

    And like you flyer, i don't think Seb would be that vindictive. I'd hope he's a bigger & better man than that.

    #133 DILLIGAF

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    Posted 09 November 2010 - 23:49

    I think it's more of a matter of Vettel wanting to show he's the moral victor.

    Everyone knows who the fastest man in 2010 has been, everyone also knows who is the one who has lost the most through reliability issues. Everyone does the math, and he wants to, in the end, be able to say, "You guys might have the points to be Champion, but I was the best" Sort of thing. And he's proving it to be the case, specially since Singapore. 2nd, 1st, 1st until blown, then 1st again, hard to argue with that, specially if he happens to be in the lead in Adu Dhabi and gives up the lead, that would mean another 1st until <Insert issue here> of which he's had a lot this year. The kid is on fire right now, definatley the hottest driver at the moment.


    :up: Completely agree

    #134 DILLIGAF

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    Posted 10 November 2010 - 00:19

    Marko and Horner were incredibly naive to under estimate the Aussie's ambition and determination. They should have sorted the ground rules latest in Monaco where Webber took the lead in the championship. To bring this up in a race was extremely amateurish.


    Spot on. :up: This naivety of Marko & Horner set the train of events in motion imo. It was certainly amateurish driver management. I don't think they ever expected Webber to be close to Seb in the championship by that part of the season(Round 7). Seb should have been blitzing Mark in their calculations but a combination of poor reliability & mistakes together with Webber's better than expected performances put them in a position where Marko decided that Seb should be given a bit of assistance in Turkey.

    Following that Webber (having been assured there was no favoritism) lost some faith in the teams management. Then when Silverstone occured Mark thought there was definately something going on that went against the assurances he'd been given. Horner initially tried to tell everyone that Mark didn't like the new wing when in reality Mark new the wing was an improvement. The lines got blurred because Seb had expressed more enthusiasm for the upgrade than Mark. Seb was given the wing because he was higher in the standings & Mark was given further assurances that he would get equal treatment or a bit of help if he was leading the standings. An easy assurance to give if they still believed Seb would come through

    None of these issues were Seb's fault & Mark has never said they were. It was all to do with the team's management & Marko in particular.

    It's just a shame that the media, looking for a juicy drama, tried to turn it into a driver fued when it wasn't. But along the way they have at times demonised both Seb & Mark unfairly imho.

    Edited by DILLIGAF, 10 November 2010 - 00:42.


    #135 DILLIGAF

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    Posted 10 November 2010 - 00:26

    [*]Vettel never lost control of the car before the contact was made. He was steering not very aggressively to the right to get into a better line for the next left hander.

    Wrong again. Seb even admitted he lost control of the car.

    #136 DILLIGAF

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    Posted 10 November 2010 - 00:35

    Sorry to barge in but I thought iotar's line of thought was as coherent as it can get. I guess you are unable to understand his logic.


    Or because iotar's logic (backed up with evidence) is at odds with this distorted revisionism that anyone with half a brain could research & find was simply not true.


    #137 Black Widow

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    Posted 10 November 2010 - 01:07

    Or because iotar's logic (backed up with evidence) is at odds with this distorted revisionism that anyone with half a brain could research & find was simply not true.

    Are you accusing me of only having half a brain?

    :rotfl:


    #138 DILLIGAF

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    Posted 10 November 2010 - 01:11

    Are you accusing me of only having half a brain?

    :rotfl:


    :rotfl: No that would be me mate!!

    #139 WhiteBlue

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    Posted 10 November 2010 - 02:20

    Wrong again. Seb even admitted he lost control of the car.

    Source please! I very much doubt that.

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    #140 DILLIGAF

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    Posted 10 November 2010 - 04:14

    Source please! I very much doubt that.


    Sure.

    #141 WhiteBlue

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    Posted 10 November 2010 - 05:31

    Wrong again. Seb even admitted he lost control of the car.


    Sure.


    Sorry to disappoint you. Vettel describes the accident from his side and mentions that he lost the car. He did not say that the accident was caused by him loosing control of the car. You know he isn't a native English speaker. When he says he lost the car he meant that in a litteral sense. They touched and the accident forces took over. One can see in the many video clips that both cars were under their drivers control and not sliding or breaking out.

    crash video from Mark's air box camera

    Go to 0:13 and you see how Seb's right rear wheel makes contact with Marks left front wheel. This is where the car gets out of control due to the forces of the rotating wheels hitting each other. Before this point in time the motion of the car is very controlled. Seb simply pulls too early to the right towards the racing line before his rear wheel clears Marks front wheel.

    In another video from Sebs air box camera one can even see his steering input when he steers to the right. At 1:05 Vettel starts to give a series of right steering wheel inputs which continue to 1:08 when his head comes forward.

    Vettel air box camera This is when the wheels touch in this clip. He is fully in control of the car until the wheels make contact.

    #142 krapmeister

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    Posted 10 November 2010 - 10:28

    Sorry to disappoint you. Vettel describes the accident from his side and mentions that he lost the car. He did not say that the accident was caused by him loosing control of the car. You know he isn't a native English speaker. When he says he lost the car he meant that in a litteral sense. They touched and the accident forces took over. One can see in the many video clips that both cars were under their drivers control and not sliding or breaking out.

    crash video from Mark's air box camera

    Go to 0:13 and you see how Seb's right rear wheel makes contact with Marks left front wheel. This is where the car gets out of control due to the forces of the rotating wheels hitting each other. Before this point in time the motion of the car is very controlled. Seb simply pulls too early to the right towards the racing line before his rear wheel clears Marks front wheel.

    In another video from Sebs air box camera one can even see his steering input when he steers to the right. At 1:05 Vettel starts to give a series of right steering wheel inputs which continue to 1:08 when his head comes forward.

    Vettel air box camera This is when the wheels touch in this clip. He is fully in control of the car until the wheels make contact.


    Christ... people complain about Webber fans...

    #143 seahawk

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    Posted 10 November 2010 - 11:04

    Webber has already beaten the Wunderkind. Vettel just needs to move over and shupt up.

    #144 Callahan

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    Posted 10 November 2010 - 11:46

    Sorry to disappoint you. Vettel describes the accident from his side and mentions that he lost the car. He did not say that the accident was caused by him loosing control of the car. You know he isn't a native English speaker. When he says he lost the car he meant that in a litteral sense. They touched and the accident forces took over. One can see in the many video clips that both cars were under their drivers control and not sliding or breaking out.

    crash video from Mark's air box camera

    Go to 0:13 and you see how Seb's right rear wheel makes contact with Marks left front wheel. This is where the car gets out of control due to the forces of the rotating wheels hitting each other. Before this point in time the motion of the car is very controlled. Seb simply pulls too early to the right towards the racing line before his rear wheel clears Marks front wheel.

    In another video from Sebs air box camera one can even see his steering input when he steers to the right. At 1:05 Vettel starts to give a series of right steering wheel inputs which continue to 1:08 when his head comes forward.

    Vettel air box camera This is when the wheels touch in this clip. He is fully in control of the car until the wheels make contact.

    I guess he just thought Mark would disappear. Or maybe he thought that since he was the chosen one , that Mark would concede the position without a fight. WRONG.

    #145 iotar

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    Posted 10 November 2010 - 12:03

    Sorry to disappoint you. Vettel describes the accident from his side and mentions that he lost the car. He did not say that the accident was caused by him loosing control of the car. You know he isn't a native English speaker. When he says he lost the car he meant that in a litteral sense. They touched and the accident forces took over. One can see in the many video clips that both cars were under their drivers control and not sliding or breaking out.

    crash video from Mark's air box camera

    Go to 0:13 and you see how Seb's right rear wheel makes contact with Marks left front wheel. This is where the car gets out of control due to the forces of the rotating wheels hitting each other. Before this point in time the motion of the car is very controlled. Seb simply pulls too early to the right towards the racing line before his rear wheel clears Marks front wheel.

    In another video from Sebs air box camera one can even see his steering input when he steers to the right. At 1:05 Vettel starts to give a series of right steering wheel inputs which continue to 1:08 when his head comes forward.

    Vettel air box camera This is when the wheels touch in this clip. He is fully in control of the car until the wheels make contact.


    I don't mean to be rude but you can't be taken seriously, now. Earth is flat then. Look around! Flat as a pancake!
    Constant denial of facts makes it impossible to continue this discussion. Opinions may differ, there are usually some shades of truth but there needs to be some minimum common ground based on reality.
    The fact is: Vettel lost control of the car while overtaking and straightforwardly admitted it.
    I'm affraid, what you wrote only exist in your head (not for the the first time).


    #146 jk

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    Posted 10 November 2010 - 12:15

    The fact is: Vettel lost control of the car while overtaking and straightforwardly admitted it.


    Of course he did not. No matter what you think about the kid, he is a bloody talented F1 driver. I don't think us mortals has any idea of the skill these guys posses.
    Now you accuse a guy who has been the fastest driver all year, of being unable to go straight without losing control of the car. That is redicoulos.

    Yes he made a mental misjudgement. He assumed that Webber would try to avoid his teammate in order not to cost the team valuable points. Instead Webber who is a fiercy blocker, decided not to be nice. Contact then happened. Not because Vettel could not drive straight, but because he assumed Webber would try to avoid an accident. A misjudgement by Vettel sure, but of course it was not because he lost control.

    #147 sanjiro

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    Posted 10 November 2010 - 12:23

    Of course he did not. No matter what you think about the kid, he is a bloody talented F1 driver. I don't think us mortals has any idea of the skill these guys posses.
    Now you accuse a guy who has been the fastest driver all year, of being unable to go straight without losing control of the car. That is redicoulos.

    Yes he made a mental misjudgement. He assumed that Webber would try to avoid his teammate in order not to cost the team valuable points. Instead Webber who is a fiercy blocker, decided not to be nice. Contact then happened. Not because Vettel could not drive straight, but because he assumed Webber would try to avoid an accident. A misjudgement by Vettel sure, but of course it was not because he lost control.



    I dont care if he did in Turkey. (i think he just ASSUMED the team orders had been made clear to MW)
    But you are basing your argument on the idea SV is too talented to loose control.
    This is just not true and clearly demonstrated later in the year...JUST ASK JB :rotfl:

    There is a consistent theme coming from the MW hating SV fans ( I am not including the many SV fans who dont hate MW)
    This idea that SV was CLEARLY faster than MW and so MW should have rolled over for the team and SV taking a No2 position as early as Turkey
    Well the points at that time CLEARLY showed this was not true.
    The 2 victory's MW had just had showed this to not be true.
    Being RIGHT UP SVs exhaust pipe in Oz untll RBR just plain forgot about him in the pit stops showed this not to be true (and this with the winter testing chassis)

    Even the latter part of the year where MW was playing a very cautious game trying NOT to throw away his lead he managed to be right on SVs pace most of the time.

    NO WAY IN HELL should MW have made that pass in Turkey easy for SV.
    Team orders or not.
    Whats more he should not have had to leave SV any more than the amount of track that he did leave for him.
    The only obligation MW had in that incident was to NOT TURN INTO HIS TEAM MATE...and he didnt

    SVs own inability to make passing moves has been very well demonstrated this year, Turkey was just one more example.

    Edited by sanjiro, 10 November 2010 - 12:30.


    #148 jk

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    Posted 10 November 2010 - 12:25

    Too talented to lose control in a straight line at high speed, definately. Everyone on the grid is. Losing it under braking is another matter, everybody is capable of it.

    Or do you beleive that Webber ran into the back of Kovalainens Lotus because he was unable to control his car? Or did he just rather misjudge the situation?

    #149 trogggy

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    Posted 10 November 2010 - 12:28

    Of course he did not. No matter what you think about the kid, he is a bloody talented F1 driver. I don't think us mortals has any idea of the skill these guys posses.
    Now you accuse a guy who has been the fastest driver all year, of being unable to go straight without losing control of the car. That is redicoulos.

    Why don't you ask Button what he thinks about that. :D

    #150 jk

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    Posted 10 November 2010 - 12:42

    NO WAY IN HELL should MW have made that pass in Turkey easy for SV.
    Team orders or not.
    Whats more he should not have had to leave SV any more than the amount of track that he did leave for him.
    The only obligation MW had in that incident was to NOT TURN INTO HIS TEAM MATE...and he didnt


    That is one opinion. I think most team owners have a different opinion.

    I agree that Webber should not give up his position Massa style. But Vettel did get a big run and was on the inside and significantly ahead. At that point i think you let your teammate go. Just look at how Hamilton and Button handled racing your teammate later that race.

    In the end, how much good did it do for Webber? Sure he handed Vettel a big blow but he himself lost a couple of spots. It seems Webber's "though shall not pass" attitude is stronger than team loyalty and common sense.

    Edited by jk, 10 November 2010 - 12:43.