46 replies to this topic

[Henri Greuter]

After all the discussion about team orders by Red Bull to let Webber take the title....

Imagine any scenario that effectively comes down to this

Alonso in a position that he loses the title to any of the Red Bull drivers after loosing time and having to make a come-back race.
Then ends up behind Massa.
If Massa moves over, he will be champion after all.
It happens and Alonso becomes champion.


Would that be a tainted title for Alonso?
Or even more tainted then it was already because of Hockenheim?
Or nothing wrong at all?


Henri

[NeilMick]

It wont happen because he's faster than Massa.

[Mika Mika]

After all the discussion about team orders by Red Bull to let Webber take the title....

Imagine any scenario that effectively comes down to this

Alonso in a position that he loses the title to any of the Red Bull drivers after loosing time and having to make a come-back race.
Then ends up behind Massa.
If Massa moves over, he will be champion after all.
It happens and Alonso becomes champion.


Would that be a tainted title for Alonso?
Or even more tainted then it was already because of Hockenheim?
Or nothing wrong at all?


Henri

Isn't it allowed if Driver B is out of the title hunt? Massa pulled over for Kimi to win in 07 so I assume so!

[shanser]

iv a strong feelin that alonso will be 2nd in the race....
p1 or p3 in quali

massa is really strugglin and its cost ferrari the wcc, and i really dono y... lets c 2011

Edited by shanser, 10 November 2010 - 08:50.

[Nom]

Isn't it allowed if Driver B is out of the title hunt? Massa pulled over for Kimi to win in 07 so I assume so!

unless Ferrari do it and then they are cheating bastards

[smitten]

Jeez, there is a lot of axe-grinding going on

[billfenner1967]

It wont happen because he's faster than Massa.

True. But of course anything is in the realm of possibility, isn't it? Perhaps Alonso gets knocked off the track at the start, gets a puncture, etc, and so in the final few laps Massa is up the track and Alonso just behind. It would be the ultimate FU to Ferrari and Alonso then, wouldn't it, if Massa literally has the power to give Alonso the WDC in his hands in those final laps -- everyone in the world expects him to move aside and do it -- but then .... he doesn't! Now that would be a classic moment in F1 history. If only Massa were quick enough to get himself up into a position to fight for 3rd on the track!!

[AlanWake]

It wont happen because he's faster than Massa.

Remember Australia this year

Anything could happen.

[engel]

True. But of course anything is in the realm of possibility, isn't it? Perhaps Alonso gets knocked off the track at the start, gets a puncture, etc, and so in the final few laps Massa is up the track and Alonso just behind. It would be the ultimate FU to Ferrari and Alonso then, wouldn't it, if Massa literally has the power to give Alonso the WDC in his hands in those final laps -- everyone in the world expects him to move aside and do it -- but then .... he doesn't! Now that would be a classic moment in F1 history. If only Massa were quick enough to get himself up into a position to fight for 3rd on the track!!

Massa did it for Raikkonen, why wouldn't he do it again?

These fantasy threads got silly quite some time ago. We knocking on absurd's door now

PS no, Massa has no championship hopes, he is a member of the team he can now assist his team any way he can.

[billfenner1967]

Massa did it for Raikkonen, why wouldn't he do it again?

These fantasy threads got silly quite some time ago. We knocking on absurd's door now

PS no, Massa has no championship hopes, he is a member of the team he can now assist his team any way he can.

2010 is not like 2007. Massa was properly humiliated this year when his team ordered him to make way for Alonso halfway through the year! Hockenheim wasn't in the final few races, when everyone would understand a switch. So what I'm saying is if Massa had any balls and wanted to go out in a blaze of FU-glory, then not letting Alonso pass and depriving him of the WDC would be the ultimate bow out of Ferrari.

Of course that said ... there's a 0.0000000000001% chance of that happening because A) Massa doesn't have the balls and B) Massa doesn't have the speed.

[engel]

Massa was ridiculed in Brazil because at the time he was asked to give way to Alonso it was tantamount to Massa being demoted to a defacto number 2 driver. Right now it makes not difference, he's not in the title hunt, it's a team sport, he's free to help his team since helping his team doesn't in any way diminish his own (non existent) championship hopes.

And professional athletes that get paid a few million dollars/season aren't 12year old schoolboys, they don't throw tantrums and say fu to their employer else ... they get to sample the sweet sweet taste of unemployment. Similar to Joe Q. Average and his 9 - 5. Temper tantrums are rare, mostly cause they lead to unemployment.

[Ferrari2183]

Jeez, there is a lot of axe-grinding going on

Too much sour grapes... Ulcers are packing up and he hasn't even won the title yet.

[billfenner1967]

And professional athletes that get paid a few million dollars/season aren't 12year old schoolboys, they don't throw tantrums and say fu to their employer else

They don't? I can think of a few footballers who have over the years. of course, I'll be the first one to admit that F1 drivers aren't nearly as stupid as footballers!

By the way, would Senna have ever done that? There are drivers who are head strong Alpha Males who have never -- ever! -- step aside for another driver and then there are the guys like Massa who are "team players" and like to "do what's best for the team" etc.

[One]

none sense claim.

All Schumacher's title is helped by his team mate, his team and all the preferential deals on car testing and unlimited miledge on tyre testing and so on. The most claims that FIA gave a separate set of rule book to how Schumacher raced.

Even so, almost all race fans shout that Schumacher is the best of all.


Got it?

[Muz Bee]

Massa was ridiculed in Brazil because at the time he was asked to give way to Alonso it was tantamount to Massa being demoted to a defacto number 2 driver. Right now it makes not difference, he's not in the title hunt, it's a team sport, he's free to help his team since helping his team doesn't in any way diminish his own (non existent) championship hopes.

And professional athletes that get paid a few million dollars/season aren't 12year old schoolboys, they don't throw tantrums and say fu to their employer else ... they get to sample the sweet sweet taste of unemployment. Similar to Joe Q. Average and his 9 - 5. Temper tantrums are rare, mostly cause they lead to unemployment.

Excellent summation. And good reason why the modern form of the sport should find ways to strenuously resist teammates blatantly ceding position while both drivers still have realistic championship hopes. To ignore the implications of a Massa or Barrichallo type of pull over to the side of the track demonstration of submission is to risk the credibility of the sport to the great unwashed masses (no pun intended!). Worse, it is likely to be damaging to the futures of the affected drivers who for whatever reason are struggling to assert themselves or build a reputation to carry into the future.

This is a cautious appeal for very responsible use of "team orders". We should all be quietly nodding in our armchairs if SebVet slows to allow Webbo into the lead next weekend 5 laps from the finish to give the sensible result for a deserving RedBull team. F1 is both a team sport and a driver sport.

[Ferrari2183]

Excellent summation. And good reason why the modern form of the sport should find ways to strenuously resist teammates blatantly ceding position while both drivers still have realistic championship hopes. To ignore the implications of a Massa or Barrichallo type of pull over to the side of the track demonstration of submission is to risk the credibility of the sport to the great unwashed masses (no pun intended!). Worse, it is likely to be damaging to the futures of the affected drivers who for whatever reason are struggling to assert themselves or build a reputation to carry into the future.

This is a cautious appeal for very responsible use of "team orders". We should all be quietly nodding in our armchairs if SebVet slows to allow Webbo into the lead next weekend 5 laps from the finish to give the sensible result for a deserving RedBull team. F1 is both a team sport and a driver sport.

No way... Massa hasn't been fast enough to challenge for a top 5 finish let alone the championship. What you are saying is that Massa should hinder his faster, title challenging team-mate should he find himself ahead for the sake of the unwashed masses.

It's bull and you know it.

[Infinityl]

2010 is not like 2007. Massa was properly humiliated this year when his team ordered him to make way for Alonso halfway through the year! Hockenheim wasn't in the final few races, when everyone would understand a switch. So what I'm saying is if Massa had any balls and wanted to go out in a blaze of FU-glory, then not letting Alonso pass and depriving him of the WDC would be the ultimate bow out of Ferrari.

Of course that said ... there's a 0.0000000000001% chance of that happening because A) Massa doesn't have the balls and B) Massa doesn't have the speed.

Ron Dennis after Germany 2008 when Mr Kovalainen let Hamilton pass in the half of seasson (both of them fighting for WDC, obviusly Hamilton far away from Kova, like Alonso and Massa):

"It was a tremendous sporting gesture and it's what being in a racing team is about. True team-mates do these things because that's the way they are."

Ill remark what you said:

Massa was properly humiliated this year when his team ordered him to make way for Alonso halfway through the year! Hockenheim wasn't in the final few races

Ah yes ! Mclaren was thinking about winning the GP but Ferrari couldnt thought that, even when Vettel was getting close to Alonso. Do you remember what happened in Canadian GP? Buemi-Alonso-Hamilton, Buemi is slower than Alonso, who is trying to overtake him, Buemi closed Alonso in a turn, Alonso slow down to avoid Buemi and Hamilton passed him in the straight. Ferrari was able to avoid another canada 2010 letting Alonso pass, securing the GP and getting out of danger WCC points who can be losed if Vettel caught Alonso (finally he caught Massa) and overtaked him if Massa-Alonso doing a Buemi-Alonso.

[Muz Bee]

none sense claim.

All Schumacher's title is helped by his team mate, his team and all the preferential deals on car testing and unlimited miledge on tyre testing and so on. The most claims that FIA gave a separate set of rule book to how Schumacher raced.

Even so, almost all race fans shout that Schumacher is the best of all.


Got it?

This is a huge, simplistic overstatement of the politics that HELPED Michael win some of his titles, SOME of his titles, not all. Actually the most infamous one was utterly unnecessary and crass - a bit like, but worse than, the Massa/Alonso switch. Michael certainly benefited through his career at Ferrari by the No 2 driver policy but be fair, he was more than a match for his teammates 85% of the time. He was on a higher plain than Irvine, mostly better than Rubens, and still in his declining years, marginally ahead of Massa.

I'm a cynic when it comes to the adulation of Michael as some kind of god because he was a product of a good team and a team devoted to ensuring one driver's success, but that driver still had to do the job on the track. It should be noted or at least conceded that Michael Schumacher was rather good at his job, on and off the track. Wouldn't have been much fun being his teammate though - at least not until Nico in 2010.

Jean Todt and co misunderstood the depth of cynicism of the crowd that day when Rubens slowed to a crawl just before the chequered flag. Much of it was because there was no need for it, Michael already had a healthy title lead. The recent controversy was made worse by the history of Massa's troubles and the prematureness of the decision to discard Massa's WDC chances. My hope was that Alonso would encounter a bad patch and Massa would surge up the standings making the decision look foolish. Days before the finale Ferrari's decision looks like it could have some justification in some people's eyes.

[Longtimefan]

The title is already tainted for Alonso

[rm111]

Is the title tainted if Vettel allows Webber past to win it?

[R2D2]

It'll be a battle for the record books. Who has the most tainted WDC titles? Schumacher or Alonso?

[velgajski1]

Ah yes ! Mclaren was thinking about winning the GP but Ferrari couldnt thought that, even when Vettel was getting close to Alonso. Do you remember what happened in Canadian GP? Buemi-Alonso-Hamilton, Buemi is slower than Alonso, who is trying to overtake him, Buemi closed Alonso in a turn, Alonso slow down to avoid Buemi and Hamilton passed him in the straight. Ferrari was able to avoid another canada 2010 letting Alonso pass, securing the GP and getting out of danger WCC points who can be losed if Vettel caught Alonso (finally he caught Massa) and overtaked him if Massa-Alonso doing a Buemi-Alonso.

This is the only proper defense on the matter and probably one behind the fact that Ferrari was effectively not punished.

Mentioning Hockenheim 2008 over and over and rehashing same old illogical arguments is really boring since it undoubtably had logic besides the one 'lets favor one driver at the expense of other'.

Canada 2008. would be better cmparison, but of course - its not McLaren and its not Hamilton so its not interesting to bash that.

Edited by velgajski1, 10 November 2010 - 11:47.

[One]

It'll be a battle for the record books. Who has the most tainted WDC titles? Schumacher or Alonso?

Schumacher has seven while Alonso two. Alonso won the two of them outside Ferrari's Tod regime, even beat them which in my opinion is superior.

[Henrytheeigth]

Schumacher has seven while Alonso two. Alonso won the two of them outside Ferrari's Tod regime, even beat them which in my opinion is superior.

Sure helped having superior tyres in 2005 and great tyres in 2006 though.

[Frans]

Schumacher has seven while Alonso two.

But Alonso is winning in his 1st season at Ferrari the title likely.

And Schumacher's record is beatable in my opinion.

[iotar]

And what if it happens TWICE in the race? Double, triple tainted championship?
In the name of science I demand a new thread to study the consequences.

[Henri Greuter]

But Alonso is winning in his 1st season at Ferrari the title likely.

And Schumacher's record is beatable in my opinion.

Now I do know that is is useless to tell it to Frans because nothing that even remotely can be remotely positive on MS is acceptable/believable in his opinion.

But for the other readers of the thread I would like to point out:

Remember in what kind of turmoil Ferrari still was when MS joined them in 1996. It wasn't by far the well organized machine it became later on.
Maybe the current 2010 Ferrari Organisation isn't still as good as it was in the years between 2000 and 2004.
But Alonso arrived in a much better organized team that had things sorted out much better this year then MS had in 1996.

A world of difference


Henri

[ViMaMo]

Can't all the vile and hatred be simply put in one common thread called "We hate Fernando", instead of a new thread every few days.

Edited by vivian, 10 November 2010 - 14:35.

[simplyfast]

No way... Massa hasn't been fast enough to challenge for a top 5 finish let alone the championship. What you are saying is that Massa should hinder his faster, title challenging team-mate should he find himself ahead for the sake of the unwashed masses.

It's bull and you know it.

and alonso has not been good enough to overtake massa either which is why Ferrari cheated.

[Watkins74]

Can't all the vile and hatred be simply put in one common thread called "We hate Fernando", instead of a new thread every few days.

[Henri Greuter]

Can't all the vile and hatred be simply put in one common thread called "We hate Fernando", instead of a new thread every few days.

I started this thread mainly because of so much discussion about Red Bull in the situation to change drivers.
As if it is a forgone conclusion that the next race will once again be the two Red Bulls in front of Alonso

But if Alonso has a lesser race? And The McLarens heading the Bulls?
In theory it could be possible that a situation occurs that Fernando once again has to depend on Felipe to move over.
Granted, not very likely.
But hey, who dared to predict early this Summer that the team order situation for Red Bull would become an issue because to prevent an Alonso title instead of a mcLare driver title?
That's why.

Henri

[saudoso]

The title is already tainted for Alonso

So it would be tainted again, or double tainte. Pick your choice.

[ViMaMo]

I started this thread mainly because of so much discussion about Red Bull in the situation to change drivers.
As if it is a forgone conclusion that the next race will once again be the two Red Bulls in front of Alonso

But if Alonso has a lesser race? And The McLarens heading the Bulls?
In theory it could be possible that a situation occurs that Fernando once again has to depend on Felipe to move over.
Granted, not very likely.
But hey, who dared to predict early this Summer that the team order situation for Red Bull would become an issue because to prevent an Alonso title instead of a mcLare driver title?
That's why.

Henri

Im sure someone else will have another situation for Abu Dhabi, does that warrant a new thread? It can all be discussed in the Abu Dhabi pre qualifying thread?

[Henrytheeigth]

I bet Massa would kill for a tainted title or two.

[flyer121]

The title is already tainted for Alonso

Two coats of p(t)aint last longer .. and is always a good idea.
Ferrari are so thickskinned that it wont matter to them one bit.
I bet they will celebrate as if they did it on merit ..
and pay Massa a special performance bonus which was never in the contract.

... and so it goes.

[One]

BS, Title is title, there is no scale.

[figue]

i think webber's title would be more devaluated should the australian been gifted the victory, all kudos to him if he manages to beat vettel and fer fair and square, but if he's ceased position off vettel I'll be extremely dissapointing after all this bs against fernando

[flyer121]

i think webber's title would be more devaluated should the australian been gifted the victory, all kudos to him if he manages to beat vettel and fer fair and square, but if he's ceased position off vettel I'll be extremely dissapointing after all this bs against fernando

Why are Webber gaining 7 points at the last race worse than Alonso doing the same halfway thru the season?

If anything - had Alonso not gotten those , it wouldn't even be a talking point now.

[Ferrari2183]

and alonso has not been good enough to overtake massa either which is why Ferrari cheated.

Not good enough...

Was Hamilton not good enough to defend position against Button in Turkey?

[figue]

Why are Webber gaining 7 points at the last race worse than Alonso doing the same halfway thru the season?

If anything - had Alonso not gotten those , it wouldn't even be a talking point now.

not as if the action itself was worse or better, but the bunch of "fair play" propaganda coming from redbull

[Tuxy]

I too felt the title was tainted in Germany until I realized Massa was never going to be in contention this year. I'm a fan of Massa but he's just not cutting it. Is the title tainted? Now I don't think so.

[cheapracer]

All Schumacher's title is helped by his team mate,


Got it?

Which ones would they be other than your imagination?

I feel sorry for the Mods, these weeks, just how many scenerio threads are needed let alone totally irrelevant off topic bash Schumacher comments?

Edited by cheapracer, 10 November 2010 - 15:31.

[flyer121]

not as if the action itself was worse or better, but the bunch of "fair play" propaganda coming from redbull

Fair enough..
But my argument is that the only way to fight bullies is to give it back to them.

[figue]

Fair enough..
But my argument is that the only way to fight bullies is to give it back to them.

I'm not against team orders never will, I just see one difference between ferrari and mclaren or redbull, ferrari made team orders obvious whilst the bulls or the mckks just hid them, don't see any case of bullyism here really, actually had vettel be first on the table the outcome of this fair-game story would have been blatantly different few races ago

[Ferrari2183]

Which ones would they be other than your imagination?

I feel sorry for the Mods, these weeks, just how many scenerio threads are needed let alone totally irrelevant off topic bash Schumacher comments?

If Schumacher drove for any other team besides Ferrari he would have been a more accepted character on this board.

I am not a fan of his but he did amazing things in the Ferrari's that he was provided with and Rubens along with all his team-mates during that period could do nothing to stop it.

I have big respect for Schumacher.

[aditya-now]

It'll be a battle for the record books. Who has the most tainted WDC titles? Schumacher or Alonso?

We should also start to examine then the tainted titles of Prost (1989) and Senna (1990).

What a tainted thread!

[milestone 11]

Hamilton: Pressure is off for finale.
There's a reason for this. Hamilton, like me, knows exactly how the scenario will play out on Sunday. We have a mutual little grey haired mate.
What some of you posters don't seem to realize is that Force India are using McLaren KERS next year and payment is in advance. Tonio and Adrian have their instuctions, take out the Bulls. Jenson of course then has little to do, other than a minor incident with Alonso, leaving Lewis to take his rightful place on the top step. Job done!